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Author Topic: Risk from being masterbated with precum hand  (Read 480 times)

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Offline Londonsunshine

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Risk from being masterbated with precum hand
« on: June 02, 2020, 05:28:16 am »
Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions.

My risk is as follows. I received a blowjob from a guy (dressed as girl, so you could say TS but I think this is not relevant to the risk). The blowjob I am not concerned about as I have read it is no risk and been satisfied with that. However, directly before the blowjob the guy was masterbating his penis while I was getting undressed. He then used the same hand to rub around the top of my cock head (with what was likely precum on his fingers). Then he washed my cock under the tap. This all happened in direct sequence. Note, I am uncircumcised.

When I read through this forum all other incidents like this you have reassured posters by saying only vaginal and anal sex are a risk as hiv does not survive once exposed to air. I am not questioning your knowledge but I cannot find any science papers to conclude this. I have read that when fluid is dry then hiv is no longer infectious. However, the precum on the hand will have remained ‘wet’ while on the hand and likely could have been directly massaged  into my cock head.

Is it a common practice that guys would give each other handjobs with hands that have their precum on it already and there would be lots of reported cases of transmission this way if it was possible? I worry I have expose myself to a major risk that is just not documented as it falls through the cracks of any study. I really worry that the precum is infectious and it was rubbed into my penis which is an area that is susceptible to hiv infection, therefore I have a risk (potentially significant). Are there any papers that can be referred to that state that this kind of transfer of fluid is not a risk? As this is the only forum I can find where the notion of transmission in this way is always stated to be no risk. I take hope from that but I just wonder if it is a case of anecdotal evidence because you have never come across it, rather than based on hard science. You must come across people who get infected and do not engage in unprotected sex and maybe this is the route?

Many thanks for your help

Online Jim Allen

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Re: Risk from being masterbated with precum hand
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2020, 05:52:10 am »
No offence intended, but this is the same questioning that pop-ups in the toilet seat and handshaking debates (anxiety stories) and for the same reasons it's not an HIV concern.

There are plenty of studies and papers over the past 40 years on the environmental and biological conditions required for the transmission of HIV, hence the vectors for transmission are understood and plenty of myths have been busted.

You are not going to be the world's first handjob HIV transmission. Move on with your life.

Here's what you need to know to avoid HIV infection:
Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, every time, no exceptions. Consider talking to your healthcare provider about PrEP as an additional layer of HIV protection going forward

Keep in mind that some sexual practices which may be described as ‘safe’ in terms of HIV transmission might still pose a risk for transmission of other STI's, so please do get fully tested regularly and at least yearly for all STI's including but not limited to HIV and test more frequently if unprotected intercourse occurs

Also, note that it is possible to have an STI and show no signs or symptoms and the only way of knowing is by testing.

Kind regards

Jim

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As a member of the "Do I have HIV?" Forum you are required to only post in this one thread no matter how long between visits or the subject matter. You can find this thread by going to your profile and selecting show own post and it will take you here. It helps us to help you when you keep all your thoughts or questions in one thread and it helps other readers to follow the discussion. Any additional threads will be deleted.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 06:14:40 am by Jim Allen »
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Offline Londonsunshine

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Re: Risk from being masterbated with precum hand
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2020, 07:13:10 am »
Hi Jim,

Many thanks for the quick reply, it helps alleviate some anxiety but I am still very concerned as I think what I have described is a plausible risk.

I struggle with how this falls into the same category as handshaking and toilet seat questioning which I fully understand is not a route for transmission as there is no transfer of body fluid (pre-cum) to a site (penis) where transmission can occur.

If the HIV is in the precum and is transferred on to the hand and then from the hand on to my foreskin while still wet (simultaneously) is that not a risk?

How about in an extreme example where penises are rubbed together while covered in fresh semen, would this be a risk?

Are you able to point me to any papers that say this is not possible?

Thank you very much!



Online Jim Allen

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Re: Risk from being masterbated with precum hand
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2020, 08:55:06 am »
Quote
I struggle with how this falls into the same category as handshaking and toilet seat questioning which I fully understand is not a route for transmission as there is no transfer of body fluid (pre-cum) to a site (penis) where transmission can occur.

You would be surprised what fluids are left behind in bathrooms. Anyhow, exactly the same concerns from a transmission standpoint and for the same reasons, it's not an HIV concern.

All in all, HIV transmission is always a biological event and biologically, four conditions need to be present simultaneously for HIV transmission to occur even in theory: The virus must be present in an infectious bodily fluid from the HIV positive person, it must be present at sufficient levels to cause infection, there must be an effective route of transmission and finally, it must reach susceptible cells in another person.

You did not meet all the conditions needed for acquiring HIV from getting a handjob, hence no HIV risk and it makes perfect sense there are no confined cases either.

Quote
If the HIV is in the precum and is transferred on to the hand and then from the hand on to my foreskin while still wet (simultaneously) is that not a risk?

How about in an extreme example where penises are rubbed together while covered in fresh semen, would this be a risk?

No, no.

HIV transmission has been studied to the moon and back and the vectors for transmission are well understood.

HIV is limited and sexually only transmitted inside the confines of the human body, There are no confirmed cases of people being infected as a consequence of any type of contact with spillages or environmental contact as it's called during day-to-day or sexual contact situations.

Alive or not one of the many reasons why it's not a risk is HIV is fragile and once exposed outside the confines of the human body to the environment the receptors used to infect corrode. Also, HIV cannot reproduce outside a human host. This is often misunderstood leading to myths regarding environmental or spillage contact risks when there is none.

Quote
Are you able to point me to any papers that say this is not possible?

Plenty, but I am not a librarian however if you want to study HIV transmission and the barriers to the transmission of HIV I can certainly give you a few places to start.

Firstly understand the basic life-cycle of HIV. https://www.poz.com/basics/hiv-basics/hiv-life-cycle

Can transmission be blocked? PLoS Med 3(2): e79, 2006

CDC Consumer Health USA By Alan M. Rees - HIV breakdown in contact with air and why.

Abdala N et al. Survival of HIV-1 in syringes. J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr Hum Retrovirol 20(1):73-80

Clay, SP et al. Survival of Human Immunodeficiency Virus (type-1) in Injection Syringes Int Conf AIDS, abstract Tu.C.2522

Baggaley RF et al. Risk of HIV-1 transmission for parenteral exposure and blood transfusion. AIDS 20: 805-812

Wu L Biology of HIV mucosal transmission. Curr Opin HIV AIDS 3(5): 534-540, 2008

Quote
You must come across people who get infected and do not engage in unprotected sex

Sure and i've heard people claim to have acquired HIV after contact with Aliens from outer-space, toilet seats, door handles, handshakes, eating food and drink and needle sticks in public places ... ::)  https://www.avert.org/news/5-weirdest-hiv-transmission-myths-ever

Thankfully stories are just stories, not facts and, there are many reasons why someone would rather not admit to exposure, or simply incorrectly dismiss a real risk without realizing it.

Factoring into stories is that being newly diagnosed is difficult enough time on its own, for some its a time of struggling with a deep fear of HIV stigma, social judgment, Isolation & self-stigma and things like sexuality, facing ones sexual orientation, religion, family, sexual relationships etc might all play a role asides from legal fears for some.

Anyhow, stories and claims mean very little.

Jim

2018
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.eclinm.2018.08.001

STI Risk Perception in the British Population and How It Relates to Sexual Behaviour and STI Healthcare Use: Findings From a Cross-sectional Survey (Natsal-3)

We have identified falsely optimistic views of personal STI risk among a substantial proportion of those at risk of STIs in the British population, which could have a negative impact on efforts to promote safe sex and STI testing, and the control of STIs.

Among those classed as having ‘unsafe sex’ in the past year (comprising approximately 1 in 5 sexually-active 16–44-year-olds), 39.2% of men and 51.0% of women rated themselves as not at all at risk of STIs

2018
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0032885517753163

Underreporting in HIV-Related High-Risk Behaviors: Comparing the Results of Multiple Data Collection Methods in a Behavioral Survey of Prisoners in Iran

Participants reported more sexual contact in prison for their friends than they did for themselves. In men, NSU provided lower estimates than direct questioning, whereas in women NSU estimates were higher. Different data collection methods provide different estimates and collectively offer a more comprehensive picture of HIV-related risk behaviors in prisons.

2018
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5268760/

Socially desirability response bias and other factors that may influence self-reports of substance use and HIV risk behaviors: A qualitative study of drug users in Vietnam

The accuracy of self-report data may be marred by a range of cognitive and motivational biases, including social desirability response bias

2018
http://emj.bmj.com/content/35/1/46
Self-perceived risk of STIs in a population-based study of Scandinavian women

Subjective perception of risk for STI was associated with women’s current risk-taking behaviours, indicating women generally are able to assess their risks for STIs. However, a considerable proportion of women with multiple new partners in the last 6 months and no condom use still considered themselves at no/low risk for STI.

2018
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09540121.2017.1384787

Social desirability bias and underreporting of HIV risk behaviors are significant challenges to the accurate evaluation of HIV prevention programs for orphans and vulnerable children (OVC) in sub-Saharan Africa

2018
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanhiv/article/PIIS2352-3018(18)30062-6/fulltext

Non-disclosed men who have sex with men in UK HIV transmission networks: phylogenetic analysis of surveillance data

Jim: In short they analysed the genetic code of the virus from HIV-positive people and came to the conclusion that some of the self-reported heterosexual mens HIV was more than likely actually non-disclosed MSM.

2017
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28509997

Social Desirability Bias and Prevalence of Sexual HIV Risk Behaviors Among People Who Use Drugs in Baltimore, Maryland: Implications for Identifying Individuals Prone to Underreporting Sexual Risk Behaviors.

2017 --In regards to STI's
https://journals.lww.com/stdjournal/toc/2017/07000
Sexually Transmitted Diseases: July 2017 - Volume 44 - Issue 7 - p 390–392

Is Patient-Reported Exposure a Reliable Indicator for Anogenital Gonorrhea and Chlamydia Screening in Young Black Men Who Have Sex With Men?

Among 485 young black men who have sex with men recruited in Jackson, MS, 90-day anal sexual exposure significantly predicted rectal infection, but 19.4% of rectal infections would have been missed among men denying receptive anal sex. Reports of consistent condom use were associated with lower infection rates only in men reporting insertive anal sex.

2016
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010782416305418
Could misreporting of condom use explain the observed association between injectable hormonal contraceptives and HIV acquisition risk?

Jim - Not a conclusive or in depth study but under the study participants it did find: 9 out of every 20 sex acts reported with condoms are actually unprotected

2013

Rollins School of Public Health, Emory University, and the Kensington Research Institute, Silver Spring, MD 20910, USA https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14655794

"At risk" women who think that they have no chance of getting HIV: self-assessed perceived risks.

more than one-half of the "no perceived risk of HIV" sample had engaged in at least one risky practice during the preceding year and more than one-quarter had engaged in at least two such behaviors


2009
The Validity of Teens’ and Young Adults’ Self-reported Condom Use
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/articlepdf/380711/poa80067_61_64.pdf

A significant degree of discordance between self-reports of consistent condom use and YcPCR positivity was observed. Several rival explanations for the observed discordance exist, including (1) teens and young adults inaccurately reported condom use; (2) teens and young adults used condoms consistently but
used them incorrectly, resulting in user error; and (3) teens and young adults responded with socially desirable answers

BMC Public Health 2007
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-7-60

Analyses of data from the Demographic and Health Surveys, Sexual Behaviour Surveys and from other countries show a similar pattern indicating under-reporting
It is probable that as HIV campaigns encouraging delayed sexual debut and abstinence before marriage reach the population, people will report behaviour
assumed to be more socially desirable.

there are some signs of differential reporting bias in our study. We found that controlling for less risky sexual behaviour substantially reduced the association between HIV and survey time among urban men, but less so among women; this may suggest that self-reports from men about sexual behaviour are more reliable. Studies suggest that respondents, especially women, tend to under-report the number of lifetime sexual partners . Therefore, analyses of associations with, and changes in, self-reported sexual behaviour should be interpreted with caution.

2010
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957626/

Self-presentation bias (wishing to be viewed in a positive light) may result in patients underreporting behaviors they perceive to be stigmatizing

Approximately a third of the men in the sample reported that they did not disclose all of their risk behaviors to the HIV counselor during the face-to-face risk assessment. These results echo similar studies of risk disclosure to medical providers

« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 09:34:29 am by Jim Allen »
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Offline Londonsunshine

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Re: Risk from being masterbated with precum hand
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2020, 09:51:34 am »
Thank you so much for the long and detailed reply.

You say this:
Alive or not one of the many reasons why it's not a risk is HIV is fragile and once exposed outside the confines of the human body to the environment the receptors used to infect corrode

I hope you can forgive me but I just need to dig a little deeper in this area. This is convincing for me but I don’t see anywhere where this statement is confirmed. I understand if the blood or semen is dry. However, I don’t see any paper or website that confirms that HIV is in infectious as soon as t leaves the body.

Thank you so much.

Online Jim Allen

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Re: Risk from being masterbated with precum hand
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2020, 10:49:00 am »
Hiya,

Asked, answered and provided already.

Yeah, its outer surface doesn't take kindly to changes in its preferred environment; slight changes in temperature, moisture content and pH levels all damage the outer surface. This outer surface needs to be intact before it can latch onto a few, very specific cell types, this has all been known for decades and it's one of the many reasons as for example you can't contract HIV from environmental surfaces or being in contact with small volumes of fluids.

As mentioned it's not the only barrier to your concern and if you don't believe me, by all means, worry away about being the first person in human history on your own time  ;)

Now, I'm not a librarian but I've posted some entry-level references you can use to start to study and understand this if you so wish. Personally I think you would have more use from understanding the known transmission vectors and prevention.

Jim



HIV 101 - Everything you need to know
HIV 101
Read more about Testing here:
HIV Testing
Read about Treatment-as-Prevention (TasP) here:
HIV TasP
You can read about HIV prevention here:
HIV prevention
Read about PEP and PrEP here
PEP and PrEP

 


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