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Author Topic: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate  (Read 29600 times)

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Offline Denvaux

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2015, 12:12:10 pm »
I think what is going on here really is about folks who do not agree with his politics.  Rather than use political arguments to talk about why one doesn't agree, we instead use character assassination techniques.  Hmmmm....  I thought this was pretty unique to the US, apparently it is not.  I suspect that if this ex promiscuous, drug addled man with a history of mental illness were a Conservative candidate, you'd have less of an issue.
It always saddens me that there is no longer much option to have a civil political discussion -- no, it always must get down to a "hatchet job" and 'the other side is evil, here's why".....  of course, the other side does the exact same thing, thus polarization strengthens and progress comes to a screeching halt.
I lay most of the blame for this on the 24/7 news cycle.  Gotta sell those TV and/or newspaper advertisements, so let's stir up the pot.  Ugh....
I will always have respect for a politician who actually speaks truths -- even if I don't agree with their politics and might never vote for them.  A truthful politician has become the definition of oxymoron.

Mike

There is nothing at all to do here with character assassination whatsoever on my part; I would call what you call "honesty" here - I would call it character suicide on account of the fact that this guy is seeking political office. Perhaps all those heart felt shares that you have listened to over your time in recovery have distorted the lines between the privacy of the AA room and the real harsh world of reality and the hostile news media. There may be solidarity in the rooms of recovery but there is very little in the real world.  As to had this person been a conservative - it would not matter one iota as I am rather more left wing even than this foolish Liberal democrat is... again you are way off the mark, I'm no conservative!

Offline wolfter

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2015, 12:22:07 pm »
Nothing like a mid morning dose of snarkiness.  I recognize some quite obvious personal attacks instead of debating the issue with any sort of decorum.  Using others' revelations to make jabs is beyond acceptable. 

So I'll simply play my moral superiority card since I've never done illegal drugs.   ;) 
Being honest is not wronging others, continuing the dishonesty is.

Offline Denvaux

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Re: Britain’s First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2015, 12:27:32 pm »
Nothing like a mid morning dose of snarkiness.  I recognize some quite obvious personal attacks instead of debating the issue with any sort of decorum.  Using others' revelations to make jabs is beyond acceptable. 

So I'll simply play my moral superiority card since I've never done illegal drugs.   ;)

You see it as a jab if you want to; I'm stating it as I see it, and if you don't want people to get a good profile of yourself -don't reveal that which is not necessary.  I'm the one that's been taking the jabs on this thread by the way- and who said I never took drugs ever - yet another reader that fails to read.!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 12:30:08 pm by Denvaux »

Offline Joe K

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2015, 12:58:14 pm »
Zach take your cocaine and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

I'm going to ask some of you to take it down a notch.  You can have a heated discussion, just remember to keep it civil.

Joe

Offline zach

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2015, 01:16:49 pm »
joe, i'll take most of the responsibility for that... i set the bait and lured him into it... i'll take my paddling in memphis if you want  :o

i also read wolfie's post as being mainly directed at me, i know it was an underhanded thing holding a mirror up that way

Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2015, 01:46:20 pm »
I think what is going on here really is about folks who do not agree with his politics.  Rather than use political arguments to talk about why one doesn't agree, we instead use character assassination techniques.  Hmmmm....  I thought this was pretty unique to the US, apparently it is not.  I suspect that if this ex promiscuous, drug addled man with a history of mental illness were a Conservative candidate, you'd have less of an issue.

No the issue would the same. I simple do not see him fit for office so to speak. No matter what political party he's part of. 

As for his politics he has none, he is nothing more than a minor role following Lib Dem party rules.
This might sounds hash but he is only being put into the mix, as the UKIP is shouting to stop treating migrants with HIV and claiming it's all the migrants fault. Hence the Lib Dem's this week rushed to find a white Brit with HIV.

The only thing he has come out with politically is that he wants "Drug usage to be classed under mental health instead of criminalization" Whilst I agree with decriminalizing drugs from what it is now, I disagree with the notion that "all" drug uses would have to some mental health issue. To be frank the idea sounds nuts to me.

It always saddens me that there is no longer much option to have a civil political discussion -- no, it always must get down to a "hatchet job" and 'the other side is evil, here's why".....  of course, the other side does the exact same thing, thus polarization strengthens and progress comes to a screeching halt.
I lay most of the blame for this on the 24/7 news cycle.  Gotta sell those TV and/or newspaper advertisements, so let's stir up the pot.  Ugh....
I will always have respect for a politician who actually speaks truths -- even if I don't agree with their politics and might never vote for them.  A truthful politician has become the definition of oxymoron.

At the moment for this election the politicians are running the hatchet style election race, in response to UKIP. The politics/issues and policies are not being discussed much by any of the groups running the race, except the Health Service deficit and the right wing who blame the Migrants. So hence not much to say about it.

Lib Dem and UKIP are both showing normally and this week in particular that they can't behave themselves in a civil manner, and that basically they as party's and/or candidates are not fit to do the job. This has been additional highlighted by both side with the HIV discussions the other night and statements surrounding the health service. 

But I will be honest, right or wrong, even if the kid had the best plans in the world I will still not vote for him. The UK needs stability and clear leadership at both local and Parliament levels. This does not change that on a personal level I felt that his story was very sad and highlighted the short comings in how we offer and provide support and how we deal with sexuality in our society. It's a true shame this is still an issue in 2015.
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Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2015, 01:49:53 pm »
I would call it character suicide on account of the fact that this guy is seeking political office.

Agreed.
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Offline lupetto

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2015, 01:55:33 pm »
Wow, there's a lot going on in this discussion here... I only comment on few things that came to my mind.

Like someone already stated above, HIV wasn't really the main thing in the article, it was more about bullying, homophobia and mental health problems and so on. Those are also very important topics to discuss, of course. I think it's interesting that the headline highlights his HIV infection when in fact it didn't seem so important in the whole picture, in his story.

Whether he's a good politician or not is not important to me now, and you Brits get to choose if you want him in your parliament. But I think it is very courageous to speak out of all the things he did (might have hurt his political career but maybe it will bring something else along the way, who knows). And whenever someone tells publicly they are HIV+ it helps us to talk about it and battle the stigma.

I don't understand what difference it makes how anyone got their virus. HIV affects us all the same way regardless of how we were infected. I can say my life has been very different from Adrian Hyyrylainen-Trett's but as HIV positive people we face some of the same issues (while some of course might be different). I don't think he speaking publicly about HIV represents me as a fellow HIV positive person, he simply talks about HIV making it more known & better understood and that's a great thing. There are millions and millions of HIV+ people, it's clear we all have our own story but I don't see the need to stand in different corners from someone who might have taken drugs, for instance. If someone wants to tell their story publicly, I think that's wonderful.

Offline Denvaux

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2015, 02:19:41 pm »
The guy went out his way to deliberately get infected in some psychotic act of suicide and now he wants political office.  Sorry, but in this case -I for one think that how he got infected matters very much. I agree, the bullying and discrimination along with the mental ill-health was more of the issue in his story but the fact is, they wanted a headline story and HIV was that headline! His story does nothing to diminish the negative stereotypical perceptions of people living with HIV or AIDS.

Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2015, 02:32:05 pm »
I don't understand what difference it makes how anyone got their virus.

It does not matter at all as such. (I've never asked anyone how they got it, I simple don't care).

Then again I somehow don't think most PLHIV went out and caught it on purpose like this politician did. And he did this on purpose in some mad suicide attempt, whilst suffering mental health issues and making porn movies and doing class A drugs.

To be honest his HIV status does not matter. What does matter is from my point of view is the stability he can bring to the table and giving his past and issues that he is facing, be that in a very brave manner, He's just not the fit job in my view and I'm the voter.  Just be clear I do not care that he has used drugs, I presume most Adults have, but the full combination of this young man's short adult life is what put's me off.

Heís not stable enough for me and also I do really dislike like that he "seems" to be being used ďagainĒ this time in what is a truly ugly political argument between political party's. They are all as bad as each other.

Other political HIV coverage this week in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11516043/Nigel-Farage-Not-un-Christian-to-stop-treatment-of-foreign-born-HIV-patients.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3023957/Meet-Monster-Raving-Liberal-Party-candidate-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-asks-Lib-Dem-admitted-trying-catch-HIV-taking-drugs-isn-t-scrutiny-members-Ukip.html
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 02:34:39 pm by JimDublin »
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Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2015, 02:40:25 pm »
The guy went out his way to deliberately get infected in some psychotic act of suicide and now he wants political office. 

Could not have put it better myself.

Sorry, but in this case -I for one think that how he got infected matters very much. I agree, the bullying and discrimination along with the mental ill-health was more of the issue in his story but the fact is, they wanted a headline story and HIV was that headline! His story does nothing to diminish the negative stereotypical perceptions of people living with HIV or AIDS.

They wanted a headline. Do you mean both the Media and the Lib Dems ? That's what I suspect is at play.
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Offline Denvaux

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2015, 02:44:56 pm »
As I stated earlier the liberal democrats are out of touch with this society and are about to be kicked into touch by the electorate. They are  merely using this candidate as if such a foolish move (putting up an openly HIV+ candidate) could genuinely attract the gay or HIV+ vote.  In fact they not just out of touch but also a decade out of date.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-335920/MP-Chris-Smith-Ive-HIV-17-years.html

Offline bocker3

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2015, 02:48:54 pm »
There is nothing at all to do here with character assassination whatsoever on my part; I would call what you call "honesty" here - I would call it character suicide on account of the fact that this guy is seeking political office. Perhaps all those heart felt shares that you have listened to over your time in recovery have distorted the lines between the privacy of the AA room and the real harsh world of reality and the hostile news media. There may be solidarity in the rooms of recovery but there is very little in the real world.  As to had this person been a conservative - it would not matter one iota as I am rather more left wing even than this foolish Liberal democrat is... again you are way off the mark, I'm no conservative!

Well, so much for your earlier diatribe about folks taking things personally.  This is a personal assault on me.  Trust me, sweetie, I understand the lines between AA and "real harsh world of reality", so you can go patronize someone else.
I've been sober for 25+ yrs and haven't been a regular participant of AA for the last 10.  I, unlike you, don't see the world in black and white -- it's mostly grey in my POV and this situation is very grey.
Is this guy fit for office -- I haven't a clue, as I know nothing of his philosophy.  Does his past preclude him from office - again, it depends.  It is past or is it present?  What I read from you is an overwhelming sense of moral superiority because your not "like him".
The guy went out his way to deliberately get infected in some psychotic act of suicide and now he wants political office.  Sorry, but in this case -I for one think that how he got infected matters very much. I agree, the bullying and discrimination along with the mental ill-health was more of the issue in his story but the fact is, they wanted a headline story and HIV was that headline! His story does nothing to diminish the negative stereotypical perceptions of people living with HIV or AIDS.
So then -- what is the "proper way" to acquire this infection??  You seem to be the arbiter of what the improper way is, so I have to believe you know what the opposite is also?   Mental health issues lead folks to make some less than ideal choices -- but many less than ideal choices are made by folks every day even in the absence of mental health issues.  Some could say that my having unprotected sex, knowing what we know about HIV transmission, was sort of intentional and sort of suicidal.  Personally, I look at it as being human -- we may aspire to be perfect, but it can only be an aspiration, alas.

Finally -- it IS character assassination being displayed here -- it's not "honesty" in any way.  Honesty would admit the courage it takes to come forward as HIV+.  It's not such a far-fetched idea you know -- we have a number of folks on here who are very open about their status.
 
So -- vote for him or don't vote him, but really, stop the nastiness.

At any rate, I'll step out of here now, as you are incapable of conversing in a civil manner with this subject.

Mike

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Offline Denvaux

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2015, 02:54:12 pm »
Hit a nerve did I Mike  ;D

Offline lupetto

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2015, 02:55:09 pm »
Wow, you seem to be really mad at this guy. I understand his past actions might not make him your first choice for a new MP but you have the choice not to vote him. Like I said, I'm not gonna get into the political side of this all.

HIV is not a very effective way to commit suicide... When he says he wanted to become HIV+ in order to die tells about his mental health struggles and yes, the way HIV is viewed. Many if not all of us have had unsafe sex knowing the risks but not wanting to get infected. Is it such a big difference? I still don't think how he or anyone else got infected is the important thing to focus on. Fair enough, he "wanting" to become HIV+ is important to talk about because it's a part of his story of not getting help for his problems. Research has also shown that many HIV+ people have been vulnerable and got into risky situations in their life. It's important to address that.

I agree, the bullying and discrimination along with the mental ill-health was more of the issue in his story but the fact is, they wanted a headline story and HIV was that headline!

This is the interesting thing! Why wasn't all the other stuff enough to make a headline? ???

His story does nothing to diminish the negative stereotypical perceptions of people living with HIV or AIDS.

I disagree. He speaks out, he is not ashamed or hiding. Over 30 million HIV+ people in the world, in that number comes many different kinds of people. All valuable people, not better or worse because of the way they got infected. I don't think it helps anything if we try to deny that some might be using drugs. That's one part of the reality, just like HIV+ mothers and fathers having healthy babies.

Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2015, 02:57:19 pm »
As I stated earlier the liberal democrats are out of touch with this society and are about to be kicked into touch by the electorate. They are  merely using this candidate as if such a foolish move (putting up an openly HIV+ candidate) could genuinely attract the gay or HIV+ vote.  In fact they not just out of touch but also a decade out of date.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-335920/MP-Chris-Smith-Ive-HIV-17-years.html

Agreed they truly do seems to be using this candidates status and sexuality in bid to get votes.
Very nasty political play from them.
 
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Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2015, 03:01:22 pm »
This is the interesting thing! Why wasn't all the other stuff enough to make a headline? ???

It's nothing really to do with him that his HIV status is headlines. It's a political play in response to the other party calming it migrants with HIV causing the rising costs in the health sector. 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 03:08:05 pm by JimDublin »
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Offline Denvaux

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2015, 03:06:45 pm »
I think it's time for a few beers down the local pub as bocker3 is very mad at me just now  8)  But finally Mike: Most people that get HIV infection get it through unprotected sex, others through sharing needles and the like... we all know that.. but let's not pretend that seeking to get infected deliberately equates to either of the above. He states quite categorically that he went out of his way to get infected!!

There is no escaping that FACT and that is not a positive perception of people infected with HIV and it's not the MP I want!

Offline lupetto

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2015, 03:08:35 pm »
Mental health issues lead folks to make some less than ideal choices -- but many less than ideal choices are made by folks every day even in the absence of mental health issues.  Some could say that my having unprotected sex, knowing what we know about HIV transmission, was sort of intentional and sort of suicidal.  Personally, I look at it as being human -- we may aspire to be perfect, but it can only be an aspiration, alas.

Mike, thank you for putting it so well! I totally agree with you!

It does not matter at all as such. (I've never asked anyone how they got it, I simple don't care).

Then again I somehow don't think most PLHIV went out and caught it on purpose like this politician did. And he did this on purpose in some mad suicide attempt, whilst suffering mental health issues and making porn movies and doing class A drugs.

I wouldn't necessarily say that he actually caught it deliberately. I mean can you even? You either get it or not. Sure, take many risks and your chances of getting infected will increase but you might just as well stay HIV-. What he tells about his life and his ways of "trying to become infected", to me that tells more about his difficulties in life, mental health issues and how they place him in a vulnerable position. Sadly that is true to many HIV+ people worldwide. There is no one truth about HIV.

Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2015, 03:12:09 pm »
I think it's time for a few beers down the local pub as bocker3 is very mad at me just now  8)  But finally Mike: Most people that get HIV infection get it through unprotected sex, others through sharing needles and the like... we all know that.. but let's not pretend that seeking to get infected deliberately equates to either of the above. He states quite categorically that he went out of his way to get infected!!

There is no escaping that FACT and that is not a positive perception of people infected with HIV and it's not the MP I want!

Just to add for fairness towards the election neither party's currently talking and debating HIV are giving it a fair or positive perception.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3024679/Farage-planned-attack-foreign-HIV-victims-shock-awful-strategy-boost-Ukip-s-core-vote.html

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Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2015, 03:17:33 pm »
I wouldn't necessarily say that he actually caught it deliberately. I mean can you even?

He stated himself that he wanted to get HIV and then he went and contacted someone with HIV and got busy unprotected. I mean it's never a 100% sure thing however he did do his best to do so and he succeeded.

What he tells about his life and his ways of "trying to become infected", to me that tells more about his difficulties in life, mental health issues and how they place him in a vulnerable position. Sadly that is true to many HIV+ people worldwide. There is no one truth about HIV.

Yeah I agree on that and posted something regarding that part of the story earlier, see below.

On a seriously I do understand or appreciate that this manís story is not really about ďcatching HIV deliberatelyĒ it about his depression in this teens due to the hatred and harassment from others regarding his sexuality from others and his own self-loathing faced as a consequence of this.  However were not talking about someone on TV , or a sports guy , were talking about someone who is running to be in government, and the fast majority of the UK will not see the back ground story they will just see the headlines and the front story of how this young man went out of his way to try and top himself and allowed himself to be used. Not really qualityís we seeks in potential  political leaders.

Look a the end of the day we have in the current election a very nasty game at play.
On side has brought HIV as topic to the table and the response is the other side pull out a HIV+ candidate. Itís not very nice from either side.

The candidate in question, I have already said on a personal side itís very brave story he tells and itís positive he is facing his demons. He is still very young and has a full life ahead of him and this is great.
He even got married recently.

However I get the feeling that some are seeing this telling of his story as a reason to ďpat him on the backĒ I donít.  Sorry it might be brave but I simply donít care in this case. Normally I might but not this time.

This is nothing but a political play and itís not nice at all. His story as sad as it is and the respect as I have for him as a person and that he has changed his life around still does not mean I think he is stable enough to be part of government.  Also I donít like being played as a voter and that's what I think that is what is being attempted in this election run.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 03:49:12 pm by JimDublin »
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Offline Joe K

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2015, 03:51:03 pm »
This is a powerful discussion and I cannot comment on any political aspects, simply because it involves England and I am not a constituent.  What saddens me however, is the lack of empathy displayed for people who suffer from mental illness.  I have lived with mental illness, all of my life and I can assure you the greatest pain of mental illness, is the removal of thought processes, that everyone else takes for granted.

There is little logic or rational thought that pervades the mind of those afflicted.  Our brains can become horribly warped as our average brain function can become muddled, leaving us unable to discern thoughts from reality and sometimes the dissonance can become so severe, that the thought of death is contemplated, even celebrated, as a way to make the dysfunction stop.  Suicide is often the choice for severe mental illness, however it is not a rational thought.  It is a way to make the "disconnect" stop, it is an action that seeks to kill the mental illness, not the host, even as we "know" that you cannot do one without the other.

Many people with mental illness, simply become unable to deal with issues that most of us easily transcend in our daily lives.  Basic thought processes are changed and distorted, rendering cognitive skills almost useless.  There is a reason we call it an illness, because a part of the body is ill and sadly, it's a part that ultimately matters a great deal.

Those who do not suffer from mental illness, will never truly "understand" what mental illness entails and for that, I am eternally grateful.  All I ask, is that you temper your views of those so afflicted and realize that some mental illness extends far beyond your ability to comprehend.

When people speak of issues that arise from mental illness, I ask you to hear their words and not to judge their character.  They are different from the non-afflicted, they have a mental illness.  While you may not understand what they say, for them, it is their reality and truth and most of them share it with others, as a way to further understanding and not as an invitation to being demeaned... for simply being ill.

Joe

Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2015, 04:16:53 pm »
This is a powerful discussion and I cannot comment on any political aspects, simply because it involves England and I am not a constituent.  What saddens me however, is the lack of empathy displayed for people who suffer from mental illness.  I have lived with mental illness, all of my life and I can assure you the greatest pain of mental illness, is the removal of thought processes, that everyone else takes for granted.

There is little logic or rational thought that pervades the mind of those afflicted.  Our brains can become horribly warped as our average brain function can become muddled, leaving us unable to discern thoughts from reality and sometimes the dissonance can become so severe, that the thought of death is contemplated, even celebrated, as a way to make the dysfunction stop.  Suicide is often the choice for severe mental illness, however it is not a rational thought.  It is a way to make the "disconnect" stop, it is an action that seeks to kill the mental illness, not the host, even as we "know" that you cannot do one without the other.

Many people with mental illness, simply become unable to deal with issues that most of us easily transcend in our daily lives.  Basic thought processes are changed and distorted, rendering cognitive skills almost useless.  There is a reason we call it an illness, because a part of the body is ill and sadly, it's a part that ultimately matters a great deal.

Those who do not suffer from mental illness, will never truly "understand" what mental illness entails and for that, I am eternally grateful.  All I ask, is that you temper your views of those so afflicted and realize that some mental illness extends far beyond your ability to comprehend.

When people speak of issues that arise from mental illness, I ask you to hear their words and not to judge their character.  They are different from the non-afflicted, they have a mental illness.  While you may not understand what they say, for them, it is their reality and truth and most of them share it with others, as a way to further understanding and not as an invitation to being demeaned... for simply being ill.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Thank you for the post, I'll try to tone my posts down a bit, if any of mine caused you any upset I do apologise.

My posts were not aimed at having a dig or singling out people who have or have had to face mental health illness. The lack of empathy would be more that it's focused on the political aspect of the story.
I have a lot of empathy for the man behind the story and as said I think it's brave and highlights a number of issues we face in the UK.

My own upset comes more regarding the timing of his candidates story and the question of suitability.
This young man running for candidate has only just started to work on his challenges in life is not ready yet, the fact that he seems to be allowing himself to be used again this time in a political play shows to me that he is not ready. Hence my comment that he is not stable enough, all that combined with his recent past and challenges. 

So despite having empathy for the man, My vote however do not fit his party, combined with his recent history, his ongoing health issues and that his story only has come out during a week political talk regarding HIV in what I think is just political play. I sand by my comment that we need more stability and civil behavior in government and from candidates . In part by playing the game his party has lost any chance of getting my vote.

Jim.
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Offline bocker3

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2015, 04:25:14 pm »
I know I shouldn't, but I must.......

At any rate, I'll step out of here now, as you are incapable of conversing in a civil manner with this subject.
Mike

Hit a nerve did I Mike  ;D
I think it's time for a few beers down the local pub as bocker3 is very mad at me just now  8) 

Thank you for proving my point!!

BTW -- Mad at you??  Not at all.  You see I am capable of having a discussion without personalizing it.  It's amazing what you can learn from actually listening to the other side;  I mean really listening to understand, not to rebut -- you needn't change your opinion to do so either.  You should try it some time.  Reread some of JimDublin's posts -- he seems to be able to do this quite well.

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2015, 04:33:44 pm »
So just to mention it before someone else does as this is regarding politics in the UK.

I live both in the ROI & the UK.
Mostly in the UK due to family commitments.
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Offline Denvaux

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Re: Britain’s First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2015, 04:50:55 pm »
I know I shouldn't, but I must.......

Thank you for proving my point!!

BTW -- Mad at you??  Not at all.  You see I am capable of having a discussion without personalizing it.  It's amazing what you can learn from actually listening to the other side;  I mean really listening to understand, not to rebut -- you needn't change your opinion to do so either.  You should try it some time.  Reread some of JimDublin's posts -- he seems to be able to do this quite well.

Mike

Me and Dublin are not a team so don't treat us as if we are brothers in arms- we are not!
You appear to mean that you would rather I agree with you than have my own opinions?  That Mike, will never happen; you see I am naturally obstinate - always have been and very probably and unashamedly always will be. My opinions are mine alone and I don't preach seeking agreement- I put my point and that is that.  As to the non  empathy I show re this individual Liberal democrat - there is during election  time,  no time to empathise with my political enemies- particularly a candidate that is running against us. The time for empathy is after the election.

*The point on empathy relates to the issue of mental illness and I don't need educating on that subject as it is a subject that is very close to this family.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 05:02:34 pm by Denvaux »

Offline lupetto

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2015, 04:56:57 pm »
Jim, I understand the points you are making and thanks for the links on your local politics. I said before I won't get into the political side of this all and maybe that was very naive of me since the issue obviously is very politicised. But I haven't followed the British politics closely enough to comment on that aspect, I was only telling my opinion on the HIV side of the story. I feel like the people on this thread are at times having two different discussion... I understand the political game is annoying and after reading the articles you linked I understand that even better. I feel the same way of certain things regarding the politics in my country. And yes, I would also not vote for a candidate whose ability I would question. But in this discussion I am not at all interested in how could a MP he would be. Maybe this is a difficult topic for discuss because it is so involved in the British elections coming up and us non-Brits don't relate to that but instead wish to discuss the other side (HIV) of it?

I still stand by my comments that I don't think he really infected himself deliberately. I read the article and the part where he says he did so but to me it sounds like he was suffering from his mental illness. Joe's post put it perfectly so I won't even try to say it any better myself.

My point was, and is, that it doesn't matter how it all happened. I'm glad he's speaking out.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #77 on: April 05, 2015, 05:33:57 pm »
Me and Dublin are not a team so don't treat us as if we are brothers in arms- we are not!
You appear to mean that you would rather I agree with you than have my own opinions?  That Mike, will never happen; you see I am naturally obstinate - always have been and very probably and unashamedly always will be. My opinions are mine alone and I don't preach seeking agreement- I put my point and that is that.  As to the non  empathy I show re this individual Liberal democrat - there is during election  time,  no time to empathise with my political enemies- particularly a candidate that is running against us. The time for empathy is after the election.

*The point on empathy relates to the issue of mental illness and I don't need educating on that subject as it is a subject that is very close to this family.

You are a piece of work, aren't you??  You simply can not read anything in order to understand.  You simply jump into defending your position. 
Let me make it clear for you -- I HAVEN'T ANY FUCKING DESIRE TO CHANGE YOUR MIND.  I do not need you to agree with me.  The fact that you are obstinate became clear to me many, many posts ago (I raised a daughter through her teen years -- I understand the obstinate mind).  Your particular stance on this issue doesn't really bother me at all, what bothers me is your unwillingness to listen to any other position other than to find a way to refute it -- not to understand it.  (again, to keep it simple for you -- understanding another side's thoughts, doesn't mean you have to agree with it and/or change your own).  No sir, all you do is pick and choose whatever best suits your counterargument. 
It is clear that you have no desire to understand another side - thus your choice of words "political enemy" and you over the top anger at any other opinion than your own.  Perhaps you should go into politics -- then you can really be part of the problem - ah, but the microscope might find your Achilles's heel and knock you off the white steed.

BTW - I compared you an Jim, not because you are brothers in arms, but because you both have, basically, the same stance here on the issue - but he is able to converse in a civil manner.  It was to highlight your abhorrent behavior in this thread and show you how adults discuss opposing views

Finally, your retort to Joe's comments on mental health are really beyond the pale and simply shows, yet again, your penchant to use character assassination over discourse of any kind.  And it actually shows that you do, indeed, need some education in this area.

Mike
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Offline Denvaux

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #78 on: April 05, 2015, 05:44:42 pm »
The first person to resort to profanities is for sure the poster that fell on his sword.

I bid you good night... it's getting late here.     8)

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #79 on: April 05, 2015, 05:47:13 pm »
*The point on empathy relates to the issue of mental illness and I don't need educating on that subject as it is a subject that is very close to this family.

How marvelous to have reached the pinnacle of knowledge, regarding a subject that has perplexed humanity for eons.

Joe

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #80 on: April 05, 2015, 06:44:37 pm »
Hi Joe,

Thank you for the post, I'll try to tone my posts down a bit, if any of mine caused you any upset I do apologise.

My posts were not aimed at having a dig or singling out people who have or have had to face mental health illness. The lack of empathy would be more that it's focused on the political aspect of the story.
I have a lot of empathy for the man behind the story and as said I think it's brave and highlights a number of issues we face in the UK.

My own upset comes more regarding the timing of his candidates story and the question of suitability.
This young man running for candidate has only just started to work on his challenges in life is not ready yet, the fact that he seems to be allowing himself to be used again this time in a political play shows to me that he is not ready. Hence my comment that he is not stable enough, all that combined with his recent past and challenges. 

So despite having empathy for the man, My vote however do not fit his party, combined with his recent history, his ongoing health issues and that his story only has come out during a week political talk regarding HIV in what I think is just political play. I sand by my comment that we need more stability and civil behavior in government and from candidates . In part by playing the game his party has lost any chance of getting my vote.

Jim.

Jim, I think we agree that there are certainly other things at play here, concerning the candidate and in a way, we are having two different discussions.  One centers on the political environment in which this candidate wishes to serve and the other is his personal story on his journey in becoming poz and addressing his mental illness.  My post was not meant to scold, just a reminder that mental illness is a specific type of illness, that I believe deserves some deference.

I understand parts of mental illness, because I have lived them and once you experience certain mental illnesses, you begin to appreciate how challenging they can really be.  This topic is one of those that transcends the forum structure and it involves many facets.

Personally, if he were a candidate here in Montreal, I would not focus so much on his back story, but his public life and what he can bring to government.  I would also note his mental illness, because it can affect who you are, or at least "who" you "think" you are, in significant ways.  I won't judge his recovery, I just know, from my experience, you do not deal with the myriad problems, this poor guy has experienced and come to a firm resolution.  It's a process and for some, it never stops.

I've read some of the context on his running for office and it sounds just like the crap that our politicians play here.  Different facts, different motives, but generally not designed to help the people they wish to represent.  I often wonder when the world became so bitter, maybe it was there all along and I simply refused to see it.

Joe
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 06:53:41 pm by Joe K »

Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #81 on: April 05, 2015, 06:57:57 pm »
My post was not meant to scold

Don't worry I did not take it that way and thank you for the input on the topic.
You very correct BTW that this thread has more than one discussion ongoing.

Jim
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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #82 on: April 05, 2015, 07:13:01 pm »
Jim, I understand the points you are making and thanks for the links on your local politics. I said before I won't get into the political side of this all and maybe that was very naive of me since the issue obviously is very politicized. But I haven't followed the British politics closely enough to comment on that aspect, I was only telling my opinion on the HIV side of the story. I feel like the people on this thread are at times having two different discussion...

They sure are different yet both heated discussions.

I understand the political game is annoying and after reading the articles you linked I understand that even better. I feel the same way of certain things regarding the politics in my country. And yes, I would also not vote for a candidate whose ability I would question. But in this discussion I am not at all interested in how could a MP he would be. Maybe this is a difficult topic for discuss because it is so involved in the British elections coming up and us non-Brits don't relate to that but instead wish to discuss the other side (HIV) of it? 

I think the politics and the discussion if he would make a suitable candidate vs the person behind the story are indeed two separate discussions.  His disclosure, the timing and the manner that itís done is just political play.
My reason for not voting for him / his party is he and them do not represent the stability we need and with this play they are showing that.
This It does not take away thatís itís truly sad on a number of different fronts,  however my own main focus on the story is from political point of view, HIV for me really only comes into it as itís being used as a political topic/game in UK politics.

I still stand by my comments that I don't think he really infected himself deliberately. I read the article and the part where he says he did so but to me it sounds like he was suffering from his mental illness. Joe's post put it perfectly so I won't even try to say it any better myself.   My point was, and is, that it doesn't matter how it all happened. I'm glad he's speaking out.

Agree in part with you. However he said it and said in the an election campaign time to an audience of millions. Even if he did not mean to catch HIV, itís a very sick thing for someone to say they did. Or at least I think it is.
From a personal point of view he can speak out as much as he likes. I think itís good to have more PLHIV in the media and in politics even.
Just not this guy and it should not come out during the run up to election as an answer to the other party HIV stands. It cheapens the story and putís in a different light then it should be.

Up till now I have tried to keep the current political affairs and the reason for this disclosure separate from the discussion on him telling his story.
Below are my comments globally about talking about HIV and being more open about it in society. 

Even more the reason then to start getting the topic of HIV out in the public view again and this time in a more positive light. If it's more talked about, then the less of a taboo it becomes and hopefully with a better understanding and openness of the topic it will go a long way towards educating. With this it might help keeping some people from getting STI's in the first place.

The other reason to break the stigma is perhaps for those to come. I read a recent UK article the other day (can't find it now but included link to similar report 2010 & 2008) and but in part (note I said in part) due to stigma the suicide rates are 3 time higher in PLHIV.  Anything we can do to reduce the stigma "may" help reduce this high suicide rate.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/715780
http://www.aidsmap.com/Nearly-one-in-three-UK-HIV-patients-has-considered-suicide-in-the-previous-week-revised/page/1431848/

So to sum it up, more PLHIV publicly living normal lives is a good thing I think, but on the topic Adrian Hyyrylainen-Trett he not going to help lessen the stigma issues surrounding HIV in the UK and might (will) make it worse for the time being.
Jim

So having more PLHIV in politics and in the public eye might help, and some positive role models might go a long way in dealing with the stigma.

I feel really sorry for what the lad had to endure and that he was unable to get/have or be provided help sooner. This should be focus point to make sure young people can get easier access to "better" help. It's BTW great and very positive he's turning his life around.


Now I must point out the one comment I have kept to myself because I did not want to side track the discussion too much is when I read his story and listened to him, I could not help it but my gut reaction tells me the story is not fully true.
Also kept it to myself because I did not want to be accused of assassinating the character. Anyhow this does not change the fact that I still think more positive role models living with HIV should be in the public eye to break the stigma.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 07:43:49 pm by JimDublin »
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Offline wolfter

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2015, 10:38:29 am »
At least he'll allow them to eat cake.  :)  Not even sure why I think that's funny.
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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2015, 06:05:57 pm »
While I believe public debates on politics may become heated, people need to tone it down.  I don't want to give out TO's (time--outs)!
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Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2015, 12:31:57 pm »
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hiv-positive-lib-dem-candidate-5477828

Well Paul Childs has now also spoken up that he has HIV and also about the stigma.

""A Lib Dem candidate has revealed he is HIV positive in a bid to fight the 'scaremongering' claims of Nigel Farage. He told Mirror Online: "There was a family friend with two small children who was angry I hadn't told them earlier. They said I shouldn't have put the children at risk.""

modified, adding a 2nd link:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/second-parliamentary-candidate-reveals-he-is-hiv-and-accuses#.op7RY7A8Z
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 12:35:39 pm by JimDublin »
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Offline Denvaux

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #86 on: April 08, 2015, 07:45:33 pm »
Jim Dublin,   Mr. Farage and his UKIPers are no more than the tory party hard-line right wing (of that party), fighting their own war (against their own REAL party- the Tories), from without, with one  goal - to turn that party to the right.   Nigel is articulate and extremely clever but I think you give him too much air time...  BRITAIN WILL DEFEAT HIM. Trust me  8)

Offline AT

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #87 on: April 08, 2015, 08:01:15 pm »
http://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/second-parliamentary-candidate-reveals-he-is-hiv-and-accuses#.op7RY7A8Z

I guess the candidate #1 succeeded in getting a conversation started about "stigma" since candidate #2 said:  ďI thought, Well, my story isnít half as bad as Adrianís so if he can talk about it then I must be able to,Ē Childs told BuzzFeed News. ďIt gave me that final push.Ē

 ...and... ďWe need more people speaking out,Ē he said. ďItís got to become a normal thing for people to say theyíre HIV positive. At the moment thereís a lot of stigma. It needs people in the public eye to speak out about it. So I hope to encourage even one person to be more open after hearing my story.Ē

Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2015, 04:27:53 am »
Jim Dublin,   Mr. Farage and his UKIPers are no more than the tory party hard-line right wing (of that party), fighting their own war (against their own REAL party- the Tories), from without, with one  goal - to turn that party to the right.   Nigel is articulate and extremely clever but I think you give him too much air time...  BRITAIN WILL DEFEAT HIM. Trust me  8)

Nigel is indeed very articulate and extremely clever, and presents well in front of the public.
He's very good at using common fear and misunderstandings to drive the focus and attention of the voters. So as much as I dislike and disagree with him I do think he will do quite well in the elections.

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Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #89 on: April 09, 2015, 04:31:42 am »
ďWe need more people speaking out,Ē he said. ďItís got to become a normal thing for people to say theyíre HIV positive. At the moment thereís a lot of stigma. It needs people in the public eye to speak out about it. So I hope to encourage even one person to be more open after hearing my story.Ē

That last part i agree with we need the topic of HIV more in the open, or at least we need it to be less of a taboo topic so that we can with that reduce the stigma. I mean being realistic the stigma is never going to be gone but reducing it by talking about it is a first step in the right direction.
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Offline lupetto

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #90 on: April 09, 2015, 04:38:19 am »
I guess the candidate #1 succeeded in getting a conversation started about "stigma" since candidate #2 said:  ďI thought, Well, my story isnít half as bad as Adrianís so if he can talk about it then I must be able to,Ē Childs told BuzzFeed News. ďIt gave me that final push.Ē

 ...and... ďWe need more people speaking out,Ē he said. ďItís got to become a normal thing for people to say theyíre HIV positive. At the moment thereís a lot of stigma. It needs people in the public eye to speak out about it. So I hope to encourage even one person to be more open after hearing my story.Ē

So it seems. I think it's great these guys are talking about it. I can't imagine any candidates in my country making a stand like that. Here it's almost impossible to find anyone publicly speaking about their infection so I would love to see this kind of open discussion here as well. I've sometimes heard similar comments to Farage's from some of our politicians but no one stands up to correct them. It's frustrating.

Anyhow this does not change the fact that I still think more positive role models living with HIV should be in the public eye to break the stigma.

I think these both guys can be seen as positive role models. I understand the first one is a very controversial character but his story shows you can battle your addiction, deal with mental illness and that HIV doesn't equal death after all. Despite all these things in your past you can live a fulfilling life now, be part of the society and not an outcast. It shows you can turn your life around. It might not be inspirational or positive to some but I'm sure there are many people who can identify with his story and find comfort in it.

Offline Jim Allen

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #91 on: April 09, 2015, 12:53:47 pm »
Hi lupetto,

So it seems. I think it's great these guys are talking about it. I can't imagine any candidates in my country making a stand like that. Here it's almost impossible to find anyone publicly speaking about their infection so I would love to see this kind of open discussion here as well. I've sometimes heard similar comments to Farage's from some of our politicians but no one stands up to correct them. It's frustrating. 

I think Mr.Farage past and current comment is causing the reaction, thatís what the candidates indicate to the papers at least. Now Mr.Farage has selected HIV a few times in the past as an example. Perhaps a good thing as itís caused a reaction I donít think he was fully expecting this. Mr.Farage more recently was using HIV as an example regarding health tourism.  (He got the numbers wrong) but picking HIV as an example from a political stands is perhaps nasty but effective for his style of politics as it has a lot of stigma and a huge amount of public fear attached to it. Mr.Farage is very good at working the fear angel with the public.

I think these both guys can be seen as positive role models. I understand the first one is a very controversial character but his story shows you can battle your addiction, deal with mental illness and that HIV doesn't equal death after all. Despite all these things in your past you can live a fulfilling life now, be part of the society and not an outcast. It shows you can turn your life around. It might not be inspirational or positive to some but I'm sure there are many people who can identify with his story and find comfort in it.

Okay i understand the point your making. Just to clarify mine slightly, I was more reacting to this due to the timing of Mr. Hyyrylainen-Trett story and the current political upset. The story simply did not help when it comes down to the stigma painted by Mr.Farage and his followers the opposite might be true in this election and instead it might help feed the issue.

The Politics and Timing however aside my point of view on a personal and not political level is it's positive a young manís showed and shared his struggle and how he has worked to overcome it and we should have more of this. I still don't like that he said he got HIV on purpose, then again it's not for me to like or not to like, it simply is what it is.   

So having more PLHIV in politics and in the public eye might help, and some positive role models might go a long way in dealing with the stigma.

I feel really sorry for what the lad had to endure and that he was unable to get/have or be provided help sooner. This should be focus point to make sure young people can get easier access to "better" help. It's BTW great and very positive he's turning his life around.
 

This does not change that on a personal level I felt that his story was very sad and highlighted the short comings in how we offer and provide support and how we deal with sexuality in our society. It's a true shame this is still an issue in 2015.

I think you have a good point that living more openly about HIV, as it will get the topic out of the "Taboo subjects" box. Hopefully once were more open about HIV in society I think this will go alone way to paving the way for better education regarding HIV in the general public. With that in turn more funding may become available in education and prevention going forward, with a bit of luck "better" education on the subject of STI's to teens at schools one day would even be possible, hopefully that generation will face reduced HIV rates and stigma for PLHIV.

Even more the reason then to start getting the topic of HIV out in the public view again and this time in a more positive light. If it's more talked about, then the less of a taboo it becomes and hopefully with a better understanding and openness of the topic it will go a long way towards educating. With this it might help keeping some people from getting STI's in the first place.

The other reason to break the stigma is perhaps for those to come. I read a recent UK article the other day (can't find it now but included link to similar report 2010 & 2008) and but in part (note I said in part) due to stigma the suicide rates are 3 time higher in PLHIV.  Anything we can do to reduce the stigma "may" help reduce this high suicide rate.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/715780
http://www.aidsmap.com/Nearly-one-in-three-UK-HIV-patients-has-considered-suicide-in-the-previous-week-revised/page/1431848/

So to sum it up, more PLHIV publicly living normal lives is a good thing I think, but on the topic Adrian Hyyrylainen-Trett he not going to help lessen the stigma issues surrounding HIV in the UK and might (will) make it worse for the time being.

Jim

Mr. Hyyrylainen-Trett story BTW tells me more (I Think) about the other shortcomings we have in society such and nothing much about HIV. The story shows the gaps with understanding/support systems we have in relation to the problems and challenges he faced. The headline was HIV but the story was not. 

Still I do have a slight gut feeling his story is somewhat off, not sure what so Iím taking the details somewhat with a pinch of salt

Jim.
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Offline lupetto

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Re: Britainís First HIV-Positive Parliamentary Candidate
« Reply #92 on: April 14, 2015, 12:05:26 pm »
Jim, I get what you're saying. :)

I think Mr.Farage past and current comment is causing the reaction, thatís what the candidates indicate to the papers at least. Now Mr.Farage has selected HIV a few times in the past as an example. Perhaps a good thing as itís caused a reaction I donít think he was fully expecting this. Mr.Farage more recently was using HIV as an example regarding health tourism.  (He got the numbers wrong) but picking HIV as an example from a political stands is perhaps nasty but effective for his style of politics as it has a lot of stigma and a huge amount of public fear attached to it. Mr.Farage is very good at working the fear angel with the public.

We have some politicians that seem to be just like Farage, making similar statements as well. And the public view on HIV is pretty much that it's only immigrants who are infected with it. Thus it's used as one thing to oppose immigration (saying the cost of immigrants is too high and that because of them HIV might spread more widely in the country). Very annoying and frustrating in so many levels. And inaccurate.

Mr. Hyyrylainen-Trett story BTW tells me more (I Think) about the other shortcomings we have in society such and nothing much about HIV. The story shows the gaps with understanding/support systems we have in relation to the problems and challenges he faced. The headline was HIV but the story was not. 

I totally agree with you on this one!

 


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