Ariz. Congresswoman Shot

[leatherman]

Seriously.!!!.you actually believe that?..I guess the same can be said for every lunatic that has opened fire and killed innocent people...people like him are nutters there is nothing responsible about them.

in America you're not guilty of thought crime (well, for the most part LOL), you're only guilty for REAL crimes. Until a person shoots someone else, they are just another citizen. Someone usually has to actually commit a crime of assault or murder before they can be arrested or convicted of a crime. Unfortuantely, it's very hard - if not impossible - to know in advance who is going to commit these kinds of crimes, so there's no way to arrest them before the fact. so yes every "lunatic" IS an innocent person until they actually commit a crime.

[Matty the Damned]

in America you're not guilty of thought crime (well, for the most part LOL), you're only guilty for REAL crimes. Until a person shoots someone else, they are just another citizen. Someone usually has to actually commit a crime of assault or murder before they can be arrested or convicted of a crime. Unfortuantely, it's very hard - if not impossible - to know in advance who is going to commit these kinds of crimes, so there's no way to arrest them before the fact. so yes every "lunatic" IS an innocent person until they actually commit a crime.

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiit! Check out the big lawyer brain on Mikey!

You should call up the supreme court. I dunno how they're getting on without you.

MtD

/edit: OMG TYOP/

[leatherman]

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiit! Check out the big lawyer brain on Mikey!

Sigh! It's always a sad day indeed when simply speaking logic and truth gets one mocked. Jan seemed to think I was out-of-touch believing someone should actually commit a crime before we declare them a criminal; and I was simply trying to explain causality.

Maybe where y'all live, you have the clairvoyance to know before someone is about to go on a shooting spree so that y'all can arrest them before the kill anyone. (like in "Minority Report") Y'all sure could have saved some Americans some grief over here if you had called any FBI office with a helpful tip before this incident happened.


mikie
who's listening to the Eurythmics "1984" and thinking about thoughtcrime

[skeebo1969]

Maybe where y'all live, you have the clairvoyance to know before someone is about to go on a shooting spree so that y'all can arrest them before the kill anyone.

Naw dude theys got the same problems man'.....  ask Ivan Milat.

But seriously...... nevermind.

[edfu]

The incomparable Keith Olbermann's Special Comment on the Giffords shooting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq38Nnf4pOw&feature=player_embedded

[Matty the Damned]

Naw dude theys got the same problems man'.....  ask Ivan Milat.

But seriously...... nevermind.

Heh. Funny you mention Ivan. I once saw this spray painted on a wall near a hostel in Coogee:

Free Ivan Milat. All is forgiven.

But seriously Skeeter. If you really knew what you were talking about you would have said "ask Phuong Ngo" not "ask Ivan Milat".

Best,

MtD

[komnaes]

who's listening to the Eurythmics "1984" and thinking about thoughtcrime

Who said anything about thought crime (well, except you..)?

If you meant that he wasn't a criminal before he actually shot and kill people, for clarity sake you probably shouldn't have said he was a "responsible" gun owner. I surely didn't know what exactly you meant (still don't actually) by "responsible".

[tednlou2]

Some video of Ms Giffords being interviewed following an attack on her office after the health care vote.

(link)

Always helpful to note the human aspect in these situations.

MtD

Being a news junkie, I remembered this interview when I heard the news tonight.  Regardless of whether this guy ever heard any of violent rhetoric (which I think he did), this should be a huge wake-up call for Sarah and others.  I have been waiting to hear the news of someone being shot after all the violent rhetoric. 

[tednlou2]

The incomparable Keith Olbermann's Special Comment on the Giffords shooting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq38Nnf4pOw&feature=player_embedded

When I saw your link, I was confused about what day it was.  So, Keith came in on a Saturday to anchor coverage and do a special comment?  I'm currently in a conservative part of Florida, I guess, where they put MSNBC on a higher tier on cable and you can't see it on basic.  You can see FOX, though. 

Thanks for sharing.

[edfu]

So, Keith came in on a Saturday to anchor coverage and do a special comment?    

Yup, he came in on his day off.  

P.S.  In a further tragic irony, I've just seen that the 9-year-old girl killed in the shooting today has been identified as Christina Green, who was one of the "Faces of Hope, Babies Born on 9/11."

[anniebc]

P.S.  In a further tragic irony, I've just seen that the 9-year-old girl killed in the shooting today has been identified as Christina Green, who was one of the "Faces of Hope, Babies Born on 9/11."

Hey Leatherman try telling the parents of that young girl that the gunman was a "responsible" young gun owner, before he decide to shoot a Congresswomen in the head and kill their daughter..
 

[Dachshund]

Until a person shoots someone else, they are just another citizen. Someone usually has to actually commit a crime of assault or murder before they can be arrested or convicted of a crime.

Wrong again Perry Mason. People are arrested and convicted for thinking and plotting a crime without ever pulling a trigger.

[J.R.E.]

 Profile of suspect :

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40980334/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts


The judge that was killed:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40985623/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/


Ray

[J.R.E.]

I'm currently in a conservative part of Florida, I guess, where they put MSNBC on a higher tier on cable and you can't see it on basic.  You can see FOX, though.  

Thanks for sharing.

Really,... That surprises me,..  Basic cable here in Pinellas County ( which is also conservative) Shows MSNBC , on Brighthouse basic and Fios basic.   HHHMMMmmmmmm... Where you at? Ft Myers or Naples?


And Edfu ,  thanks for sharing the Olberman clip.   Somehow I missed it.  Fell asleep.

Ray

[zach]

I realize I risk the ire of many. I know that some who disagree with me are the wisest voices here.

The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I am a gun owner. I hunt. I also have firearms solely for home/self defense. I am a military veteran. I swore an oath to defend this country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And I have a concealed carry permit. I think it is a damn shame no one in that crowd returned fire.

This man is insane, it is symantics to argue if he was a criminal before or after he commited an act of violence. The gun control debate is a diversion, a distraction. Preventing people from legally obtaining firearms will not stop criminals from doing the same, they are crimnals and do not follow the laws. He should be punished for his crimes.

The victims of this crime were not victims of law. To shift the blame from the criminal to a debate of law demeans their loss.

It is true, the rhetoric of both the right and the left has become far too polarizing. This country is not of Us and Them. It is a country of We the People. But the solution is not to sacrifice our rights and liberties one by one until we wake up and realize we are no longer a free people.

[Joe K]

I realize I risk the ire of many. I know that some who disagree with me are the wisest voices here.

The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I am a gun owner. I hunt. I also have firearms solely for home/self defense. I am a military veteran. I swore an oath to defend this country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And I have a concealed carry permit. I think it is a damn shame no one in that crowd returned fire.

This man is insane, it is symantics to argue if he was a criminal before or after he commited an act of violence. The gun control debate is a diversion, a distraction. Preventing people from legally obtaining firearms will not stop criminals from doing the same, they are crimnals and do not follow the laws. He should be punished for his crimes.

The victims of this crime were not victims of law. To shift the blame from the criminal to a debate of law demeans their loss.

It is true, the rhetoric of both the right and the left has become far too polarizing. This country is not of Us and Them. It is a country of We the People. But the solution is not to sacrifice our rights and liberties one by one until we wake up and realize we are no longer a free people.

I am not attacking the right of Americans to own guns, rather I am looking for some sanity in both the types of weapons/ammo sold and closing loopholes that allow people to buy guns without any background check.  Personally, I cannot understand how automatic weapons or armor-piercing bullets are needed for either hunting or personal defense, yet they are sold by the thousands.  Or the loophole, for weekend gun sales, where you can buy a weapon, no questions asked, nor sanity required.  Or gun dealers who sell AK7's by the lot and who exactly do they think are going to use these weapons and for what?  This is my issue with the gun control  laws.

It has been documented that there are about a dozen gun dealers, located near the Mexican border that sell guns that wind up on both sides of the border, often in the hands of drug dealers.  How is there any sanity to that approach?  What confuses me the most however, is why responsible gun owners, like yourself are not pressuring both the NRA and lawmakers to close these loopholes.  I think that every gun sold in the US, should be subject to a three-day waiting period, both for possible cool down of potential owners and for verification of a background check.  Not enough of that happens and there are far too many gun dealers who will sell a gun to anyone, just to make a buck.

I am a fierce advocate of equal rights, including gun rights.  However, guns have overrun America, with little control and nobody can convince me that stricter gun laws would not be effective.  Please help me to understand how allowing someone, with no background check, to purchase 6 AK7s, at a weekend gun show, is consistent with the intent of the Second Amendment.  Yes, you may have the right to keep and bear arms, but I also have an equal right, not to be shot by a gun that was sold illegally, by a licensed gun dealer.   

[RapidRod]

I am not attacking the right of Americans to own guns, rather I am looking for some sanity in both the types of weapons/ammo sold and closing loopholes that allow people to buy guns without any background check.  Personally, I cannot understand how automatic weapons or armor-piercing bullets are needed for either hunting or personal defense, yet they are sold by the thousands.  Or the loophole, for weekend gun sales, where you can buy a weapon, no questions asked, nor sanity required.  Or gun dealers who sell AK7's by the lot and who exactly do they think are going to use these weapons and for what?  This is my issue with the gun control  laws.

It has been documented that there are about a dozen gun dealers, located near the Mexican border that sell guns that wind up on both sides of the border, often in the hands of drug dealers.  How is there any sanity to that approach?  What confuses me the most however, is why responsible gun owners, like yourself are not pressuring both the NRA and lawmakers to close these loopholes.  I think that every gun sold in the US, should be subject to a three-day waiting period, both for possible cool down of potential owners and for verification of a background check.  Not enough of that happens and there are far too many gun dealers who will sell a gun to anyone, just to make a buck.

I am a fierce advocate of equal rights, including gun rights.  However, guns have overrun America, with little control and nobody can convince me that stricter gun laws would not be effective.  Please help me to understand how allowing someone, with no background check, to purchase 6 AK7s, at a weekend gun show, is consistent with the intent of the Second Amendment.  Yes, you may have the right to keep and bear arms, but I also have an equal right, not to be shot by a gun that was sold illegally, by a licensed gun dealer.    

He didn't use armor-piercing bullets, he used 9mm. He was kicked out of college and could not return until he was given a release from Mental Health that he wasn't a threat to himself or others and the same thing happened at his HighSchool where the police were called 5 times. Now where was the ball dropped?

[Joe K]

He didn't use armor-piercing bullets, he used 9mm. He was kicked out of college and could not return until he was given a release from Mental Health that he wasn't a threat to himself or others and the same thing happened at his HighSchool where the police were called 5 times. Now where was the ball dropped?

Where?  How did he get the 9mm?

[RapidRod]

He went a bought it legally at Gun Warehouse in Tucson in November.

[Joe K]

He went a bought it legally at Gun Warehouse in Tucson in November.

My point exactly.  Why did they sell a gun to a unbalanced man, with a documented history of mental issues?

[Ann]

I think it is a damn shame no one in that crowd returned fire.

Yes, that would have been nice; a few more innocent bystanders shot and possibly killed by someone who wasn't a trained sniper, someone who happened to have a gun and panicked. Great stuff. Not.

Preventing people from legally obtaining firearms will not stop criminals from doing the same, they are crimnals and do not follow the laws.

The UK has strict gun laws and it is rare in the extreme to hear of a shooting like this one. Sure, there are criminals in the UK who manage to get a hold of and use guns, but more often than not the only people they shoot are other criminals who are encroaching on their territory.

[RapidRod]

My point exactly.  Why did they sell a gun to a unbalanced man, with a documented history of mental issues?

He wasn't entered by the police in the data base that he had a history of mental problems. If it is not flagged in the computer, gun sales don't know they are only given limited information on the buyer's background check. You wouldn't expect him to fill out the form correctly stating he has mental issues do you? If he does have a Mental Disease he may honestly believe he is not sick.

[mecch]

Jan Brewer is in way way over her ability.
She's a disgrace to the nation.
Not everyone is qualified for government responsibility.
The idea that this is leadership contributes somehow, I think, to the empowerment of freaky violent fringers like this assassin.
Somehow, its all the same ballgame. Lunatics on the loose.
Hide your wife, hide your kids, cause they killing everyone down there.

[RapidRod]

Ann, the UK may not have the gun problems we have but you all sure have the knife problems.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2517779/Daily-UK-knife-crimes-soar.html

[Ann]

Ann, the UK may not have the gun problems we have but you all sure have the knife problems.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2517779/Daily-UK-knife-crimes-soar.html

I never said there wasn't a problem with knives, but do you honestly believe a person could knife 18 people, killing six of them, as easily and in the same setting as the Tuscon shootings? Get a grip.

[RapidRod]

I never said there wasn't a problem with knives, but do you honestly believe a person could knife 18 people, killing six of them, as easily and in the same setting as the Tuscon shootings? Get a grip.

How about this one Ann? Never heard that much about it in the US.

Derrick Bird, who shot 12 people dead in Cumbria, owned his three licensed guns perfectly legally and the UK has the strictest gun laws around.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/02/police-no-grounds-derrick-bird-guns-ban

[komnaes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsN0FCXw914

PS - I post this not to trivialize the tragedy.. it's just that sometimes comedies do make the sharpest points..

[zach]

Fully automatic weapons require a class III firearms license. Any sale of a class III firearm is subject to a waiting period, background check, and mandatory reporting to the local sheriff. Gun shows don't side step that requirement. The loophole that gunshows exploit doesn't allow class III private sales, and that loop hole even as it currently exists is opposed by many gun owners. NRA members are by no means quiet folks, or of a single mind, there is a great deal of internal disagreement about the private sale loophole. I personally believe, that anyone who is legally entitled to own a firearm, should be required to report that possession. I also believe that safe handling and training should be required. Dealers that break the laws should have their FFDL revoked for life, and should be prosecuted. The laws as they currently exist, are not being fully upheld, and that is a problem.

And I go a step further than many. I think anyone owning a firearm should have to swear an oath of allegiance, be considered member of a citizen militia, and subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. You'll never see that happen though. To me, that would be more in tune with the intention of the 2nd amendment.

The kid in Arizona used a 9mm semiautomatic, not a very powerful round at all. Little consolation to his victims.

[zach]

He bought that 9mm AFTER having already made death threats. Someone dropped the ball.

[Ann]

How about this one Ann? Never heard that much about it in the US.

Derrick Bird, who shot 12 people dead in Cumbria, owned his three licensed guns perfectly legally and the UK has the strictest gun laws around.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/02/police-no-grounds-derrick-bird-guns-ban

Of course I've heard of that - I never said it never happened, I said it was rare in the extreme. Shootings are a daily occurrence in the States, but most of them don't involve nationally known politicians or federal judges and so don't gain the wide-spread coverage as the Tucson shootings. I mean, how many drive-bys happen in a week in the US?

The UK has strict gun laws and it is rare in the extreme to hear of a shooting like this one. Sure, there are criminals in the UK who manage to get a hold of and use guns, but more often than not the only people they shoot are other criminals who are encroaching on their territory.

Anyway, I've got better things to do with the rest of my Sunday afternoon than to debate gun control with you. I'm not going to change your mind and you aren't going to change my mind. You lot in the US can keep killing each other if you want.

[RapidRod]

Of course I've heard of that - I never said it never happened, I said it was rare in the extreme. Shootings are a daily occurrence in the States, but most of them don't involve nationally known politicians or federal judges and so don't gain the wide-spread coverage as the Tucson shootings. I mean, how many drive-bys happen in a week in the US?

Anyway, I've got better things to do with the rest of my Sunday afternoon than to debate gun control with you. I'm not going to change your mind and you aren't going to change my mind. You lot in the US can keep killing each other if you want.

Drive-bys aren't done by people that aren't criminals and criminals will obtain guns anyway they can legally or not. Stricter laws will only apply to law abiding citizens.

[mecch]

Germany, Britain, Switzerland and France have experienced crazy shootings in recent years.  Doesn't seem to happen quite as often as in the US.  I don't think gun law is the route to deeper understanding of crazies on the loose with guns.  Its apples and oranges. Two equally important dilemmas.  

OK I see the point about guns being more deadly than knives, of course.

This was a political assassination. I don't yet see the clear explanation in his ramblings. It seems to be about literacy and I dunno what - seems to be somehow about deficit - government printing money to pay for bloated programs? - which seems to be related to the health care issue. And the Congresswoman voted for that.

And New York times did an article just a day or two ago about how in Arizona, latin literature class in high school was deemed illegal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/us/08ethnic.html?scp=1&sq=mexican%20literature&st=cse
Rift in Arizona as Latino Class Is Found Illegal


It doesn't take a rocket scientist or Sigmund Freud to start getting a general hypothesis about how this shooting made sense for this psychotic.  

Exact details to come soon.

[WillyWump]

Yes, that would have been nice; a few more innocent bystanders shot and possibly killed by someone who wasn't a trained sniper, someone who happened to have a gun and panicked. Great stuff. Not.

The flip side of that argument is perhaps a 9y/o would be alive today. We jsut dont know.

and dont start with the "England has no crime because we have strict gun control". I think England leads the world in Robberies, rapes and burglaries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7922755/England-has-worse-crime-rate-than-the-US-says-Civitas-study.html

In the last month here in SA Ive seen 2 or 3 stories about a home intruder being shot dead by the homeowner before he could rape, rob or steal. Bravo. It will take a minimum 8 mintues for the police to arrive at my house after I initiate a 911 call for help, i want a fighting chance in those circumstance as the police just are not able to protect me.

Is anyone understanding the possibility that If this guy did not have a gun he may have ran his car at 60mph into the crowd? Perhaps we should have stricter car control.

The problem with guns is the lax oversight, as several people mentioned someone dropped the ball with this wack job.

-W

[mecch]

Also, his freaky Youtube videos will be in several contemporary art shows. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE0BzDZ6yMY&feature=related

[Miss Philicia]

The flip side of that argument is perhaps a 9y/o would be alive today. We jsut dont know.

and dont start with the "England has no crime because we have strict gun control". I think England leads the world in Robberies, rapes and burglaries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7922755/England-has-worse-crime-rate-than-the-US-says-Civitas-study.html

In the last month here in SA Ive seen 2 or 3 stories about a home intruder being shot dead by the homeowner before he could rape, rob or steal. Bravo. It will take a minimum 8 mintues for the police to arrive at my house after I initiate a 911 call for help, i want a fighting chance in those circumstance as the police just are not able to protect me.

Is anyone understanding the possibility that If this guy did not have a gun he may have ran his car at 60mph into the crowd? Perhaps we should have stricter car control.

The problem with guns is the lax oversight, as several people mentioned someone dropped the ball with this wack job.

-W

You're comparing robberies to deaths?   How utterly mind blowing.

[Ann]

and dont start with the "England has no crime because we have strict gun control".

Oh come off it, I never said that nor will I ever say that. No crime? Get a grip. Crime is everywhere.

I think England leads the world in Robberies, rapes and burglaries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7922755/England-has-worse-crime-rate-than-the-US-says-Civitas-study.html

That is NOT what that article states. No where near.

You're comparing robberies to deaths?   How utterly mind blowing.

Breathtaking, isn't it.

[mecch]

Jan Brewer lied about her nazi-fighting heroic father.
Jan Brewer lied about headless bodies in the desert.
Jan Brewer was elected despite these bald faced lies, because a certain electorate in the US wants these bald faced lies.

This nut case assassin also believes he can create reality out of thin air.  He's obsessed with mind control.

(Also with his college failure.)

[mecch]

The Tea Party "radicalised" Republican congress made a big show of reading the Constitution on the floor.  It was an alarming spectacle of the absence of a mature adult interpretation of this text.  One side wants to use it in only one way (in a purged form, no less) to do one political agenda which holds little water - just endless spectacle to keep the power and wealth in the hegemonic few.

This nutcase's youtube videos are also filled with some kind of cockamamie references to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

As were Timothy McVeighs actions.

[leatherman]

Who said anything about thought crime (well, except you..)?

If you meant that he wasn't a criminal before he actually shot and kill people, for clarity sake you probably shouldn't have said he was a "responsible" gun owner. I surely didn't know what exactly you meant (still don't actually) by "responsible".

I'm sure you can understand what a "responsible gun owner" is. it's not that hard.  For brevity sake - a responsible gun owner is one that owns a gun and does not kill people with it. that's all any of us can guess, sadly, until someone commits a crime with a gun. As I said, Jan implied that we/I should have known this guy was a lunatic from the start who was going to shoot someone. Trying to guess before hand who's going to be "irresponsible" (especially just using the criteria of mental health problems as the definitive knowledge of knowing who will commit a crime) is like accusing someone of thoughtcrime.

How do I know that any of YOU aren't lunatics/nutters who will go on a rampage one day? LOL How do y'all know that I won't? See how that works? None of us is guilty.... right now... and there's no way to know. So for the time being, we all seem to be "rational and responsible" citizens in our respective countries.

Wrong again Perry Mason. People are arrested and convicted for thinking and plotting a crime without ever pulling a trigger.

looking to pick a fight with me, you misunderstood my whole sentence. the word "usually" implies that NOT everyone is arrested for committing crimes by the very act of committing the crime. It gives leeway for "some" to be arrested without doing the actual crime. For the most part however, people ARE arrested for actually doing a crime. It's much rarer to be arrested for NOT committing a crime but only thinking about it. and usually the thinking has to require the actual plotting. Without the plot or plans, which are actually criminal actions in and of themselves, then there are only thoughts which as of yet our judicial system has not learned how to divine.

try telling the parents of that young girl that the gunman was a "responsible" young gun owner, before he decide to shoot a Congresswomen in the head and kill their daughter

just because you think I'm a jerk doesn't make it so. I know I would never be that hateful to anyone who suffered a loss like this. I wouldn't go to the parents of someone killed by a drunk driver and say the driver had been a "responsible driver" until he murdered their child either. (even if with no points on their license and no other issues, even if the person "might" have been a responsible driver for the 20 yrs preceding this one event)

But since you don't have the power of clairvoyance, you couldn't have said the day before this incident that this man was a lunatic and was about to become a murderer and had him locked up for NOT killing anyone. We can't just go around arresting all the "nutters" because you think they might go postal.

Until this guy shot these people, even with the issues of his mental health, there was no way to know that he was going to shoot into a crowd of people. He could have just as easily bombed an abortion clinic, run a car into the crowd, or even hung himself. Guns don't commit the crimes people do. Sure guns help; but so do cars and knives and bombs.

Personally, I'm all for tighter gun control - the kind that actual reduces the amount of weapons so that "irresponsible people" (whoever and whatever they are) along with criminals and people with mental health issues are less likely to be to obtain guns/weapons. It still won't totally solve the issue though, because there's no way to totally protect ourselves from all the random, "crazy" actions of determined people.

[bocker3]

The Tea Party "radicalised" Republican congress made a big show of reading the Constitution on the floor.  It was an alarming spectacle of the absence of a mature adult interpretation of this text.  One side wants to use it in only one way (in a purged form, no less) to do one political agenda which holds little water - just endless spectacle to keep the power and wealth in the hegemonic few.

This nutcase's youtube videos are also filed with some kind of cockamamie references to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

As were Timothy McVeighs actions.

I am no fan of the Tea Party or Republican's stands on most issues, but it is rhetoric like this that is part of the problem.  Political opponents should not act like deadly enemies (not my line, I heard it on Meet the Press today).  I have friends with different political thoughts than mine, we generally have civil discussions -- hell, we've even helped each other have "light bulb" moments because we don't demonize.

Why did I quote this entry -- because Rep. Giffords herself took part in the reading of the Constitution on the floor of the US House of Representatives.  While I agree that it was all about political theater -- I find nothing "alarming" about Congress reading the US Constitution.  The right does not have a monopoly on overheated rhetoric or in attempting to portray the other side as evil. 

Using this tragedy to try and change the tone of discourse would result in some good coming out of it, using to score political points will simply lead to more of the same.

Mike

[Dachshund]

I'm sure you can understand what a "responsible gun owner" is. it's not that hard.  For brevity sake - a responsible gun owner is one that owns a gun and does not kill people with it. that's all any of us can guess, sadly, until someone commits a crime with a gun. As I said, Jan implied that we/I should have known this guy was a lunatic from the start who was going to shoot someone. Trying to guess before hand who's going to be "irresponsible" (especially just using the criteria of mental health problems as the definitive knowledge of knowing who will commit a crime) is like accusing someone of thoughtcrime.

How do I know that any of YOU aren't lunatics/nutters who will go on a rampage one day? LOL How do y'all know that I won't? See how that works? None of us is guilty.... right now... and there's no way to know. So for the time being, we all seem to be "rational and responsible" citizens in our respective countries.
looking to pick a fight with me, you misunderstood my whole sentence. the word "usually" implies that NOT everyone is arrested for committing crimes by the very act of committing the crime. It gives leeway for "some" to be arrested without doing the actual crime. For the most part however, people ARE arrested for actually doing a crime. It's much rarer to be arrested for NOT committing a crime but only thinking about it. and usually the thinking has to require the actual plotting. Without the plot or plans, which are actually criminal actions in and of themselves, then there are only thoughts which as of yet our judicial system has not learned how to divine.
just because you think I'm a jerk doesn't make it so. I know I would never be that hateful to anyone who suffered a loss like this. I wouldn't go to the parents of someone killed by a drunk driver and say the driver had been a "responsible driver" until he murdered their child either. (even if with no points on their license and no other issues, even if the person "might" have been a responsible driver for the 20 yrs preceding this one event)

But since you don't have the power of clairvoyance, you couldn't have said the day before this incident that this man was a lunatic and was about to become a murderer and had him locked up for NOT killing anyone. We can't just go around arresting all the "nutters" because you think they might go postal.

Until this guy shot these people, even with the issues of his mental health, there was no way to know that he was going to shoot into a crowd of people. He could have just as easily bombed an abortion clinic, run a car into the crowd, or even hung himself. Guns don't commit the crimes people do. Sure guns help; but so do cars and knives and bombs.

Personally, I'm all for tighter gun control - the kind that actual reduces the amount of weapons so that "irresponsible people" (whoever and whatever they are) along with criminals and people with mental health issues are less likely to be to obtain guns/weapons. It still won't totally solve the issue though, because there's no way to totally protect ourselves from all the random, "crazy" actions of determined people.

I say, I say, I say...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx98pskffOY&feature=related

[mecch]

I dont understand why this story is mostly about gun control and why you are all bickering and nikpiking each other when its obvious everyone thinks its a terrible loss that people died. no one is insensitive to that.
Timothy McVeigh didn't happen to have a truck bomb and randomly search for victims.
The Congresswoman was the target.

[skeebo1969]

I think it is a damn shame no one in that crowd returned fire.

Can you imagine..... this being Sarah Palin?   

[mecch]

Stark news:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-youtube-videos-_n_806370.html

WASHINGTON -- Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged shooter of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and others on Saturday, may have ties to anti-Semitic, anti-immigration hate group American Renaissance, according to a leaked memo from the Department of Homeland Security.

.......

The group's connection to anti-Semitism is slightly more complicated. Although Holocaust deniers and neo-Nazis are often present at New Century Foundation conferences, group founder Jared Taylor cracked down on anti-Semitic speech in the magazine and at events, according to Southern Poverty Law Center. But after an anti-Semitic outburst at the 2006 conference, the group lost some of its Jewish supporters.




WASHINGTON -- Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged shooter of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and others on Saturday, may have ties to anti-Semitic, anti-immigration hate group American Renaissance, according to a leaked memo from the Department of Homeland Security.

It's unclear whether Loughner maintains a direct connection to the group, however, "strong suspicion is being directed" at American Renaissance in the wake of the group being referenced in Loughner's Myspace and YouTube videos, according to the memo, which was obtained by Fox News.

American Renaissance is a white nationalist group that operates under a pseudo think tank called the New Century Foundation. The group runs a magazine and conferences based on eugenics and the superiority of whites, according to Southern Poverty Law Center.

The group considers its members to be "racial-realists," according to an "About Us" section on the American Renaissance magazine website. "Attempts to gloss over the significance of race or even to deny its reality only make problems worse," the group writes. "Progress requires the study of all aspects of race, whether historical, cultural, or biological. This approach is known as race realism."

The pseudo-science in the magazine refers to biological superiority of whites, with titles such as "Swine Flu: Is There a Racial Link?" and "Ignoring Biological Reality Means Social and Economic Catastrophe." After President Barack Obama was elected in 2008, the magazine ran a feature called "Transition to Black Rule?"

American Renaissance is opposed to the entry of non-whites into the United States and supports Arizona's SB 1070 immigration law, which was criticized as racist and challenged by the Obama Justice Department. In an introduction to readers when the magazine was started in 1990, the publication wrote that "blacks and Hispanics are, compared to whites, far more likely to be poor, illiterate, on welfare, or in jail; they are far more likely to have illegitimate children, be addicted to drugs, or have AIDS. By no definition of international competitiveness can the presence of these populations be anything but a disadvantage."

The group's connection to anti-Semitism is slightly more complicated. Although Holocaust deniers and neo-Nazis are often present at New Century Foundation conferences, group founder Jared Taylor cracked down on anti-Semitic speech in the magazine and at events, according to Southern Poverty Law Center. But after an anti-Semitic outburst at the 2006 conference, the group lost some of its Jewish supporters.
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Although the motivations behind Saturday's actions remain unclear, Jewish media organizations pointed to possibly anti-Semitism after Hitler's Mein Kampf was listed as one of Loughner's favorite books. Giffords is the first Jewish U.S. representative to be elected in Arizona. Gabe Zimmerman, a Giffords aide who was killed in the shooting, was also Jewish.

On immigration, Giffords holds Blue Dog views: She supports comprehensive immigration reform, including increased border security and a path to legal status for some of the estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants already in the United States. Giffords voted in December for the DREAM Act, a bill that would allow undocumented immigrants who entered the country as children, to exchange in return for military service or attending college.

Although she opposes Arizona law SB 1070, Giffords also opposed the Justice Department's lawsuit against the state to stop the law. "Congresswoman Giffords wants more federal agents on the Arizona border, not federal lawyers in court arguing with state lawyers about a law that will do nothing to increase public safety in the communities she represents," her spokesman told The Hill in June.

[mecch]

And this:


Westboro Baptist Church To Picket Funerals Of Arizona Shooting Victims

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html

"Your federal judge is dead and your (fag-promoting, baby-killing, proud-sinner) Congresswoman fights for her life. God is avenging Himself on this rebellious house! WBC prays for your destruction--more shooters, more dead carcasses piling up, young, old, leader and commoner--all. Your doom is upon you!"

[zach]

don't get me wrong, i'm not calling for bullets flying all around, but one well placed round, from a competent shooter, may have stopped this quickly

sarah is smokin hot, and i sure do have a crush on her, but i would never, ever, vote for her in any office, i mean look at her, she's not even looking through the scope, no cheek to stock, and her finger is already on the trigger?!

Can you imagine..... this being Sarah Palin?    

shaking head in disapproval

[leatherman]

I say, I say, I say...

a totally unrelated cartoon? really? you mean you can't seriously carry on a conversation with me? sheesh. whatever though. your contributions in our "discussions" usually don't amount to much anyway so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. As usual in our history in these forums, I should point out, that it was you, with your unsolicited comments about my postings, that has started this interaction between us. This bit of silliness and your initial nitpicking just shows that you were looking to provoke from the very beginning, not to actually participate.

[mecch]

The Palin website with a bullseye over Gabrielle Gifford's district is down now: /
http://www.talksy.com/83221/the-palin-website-with-a-bullseye-over-gabrielle-gifford-s-district-is-down-now

natch.

[Joe K]

Fully automatic weapons require a class III firearms license. Any sale of a class III firearm is subject to a waiting period, background check, and mandatory reporting to the local sheriff. Gun shows don't side step that requirement. The loophole that gunshows exploit doesn't allow class III private sales, and that loop hole even as it currently exists is opposed by many gun owners. NRA members are by no means quiet folks, or of a single mind, there is a great deal of internal disagreement about the private sale loophole. I personally believe, that anyone who is legally entitled to own a firearm, should be required to report that possession. I also believe that safe handling and training should be required. Dealers that break the laws should have their FFDL revoked for life, and should be prosecuted. The laws as they currently exist, are not being fully upheld, and that is a problem.

And I go a step further than many. I think anyone owning a firearm should have to swear an oath of allegiance, be considered member of a citizen militia, and subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. You'll never see that happen though. To me, that would be more in tune with the intention of the 2nd amendment.

The kid in Arizona used a 9mm semiautomatic, not a very powerful round at all. Little consolation to his victims.

Zach, thank you for such an honest and thoughtful response.  Regarding gun control, it always seems like it's all one or the other, when obviously people like you have a rational view of the reality of guns in America.

[zach]

those westboro folk scare the $h!t outta me

And this:


Westboro Baptist Church To Picket Funerals Of Arizona Shooting Victims

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html

"Your federal judge is dead and your (fag-promoting, baby-killing, proud-sinner) Congresswoman fights for her life. God is avenging Himself on this rebellious house! WBC prays for your destruction--more shooters, more dead carcasses piling up, young, old, leader and commoner--all. Your doom is upon you!"