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Author Topic: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!  (Read 5641 times)

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Offline darwin

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Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« on: April 24, 2008, 02:59:07 AM »

I was just diagnosed 2 hours ago.

I have been in a loving relationship for the past year with a great guy who is HIV+.  I saw him through his diagnosis, his appointments, his adjustments to Atripla... everything.

He left me 3 weeks ago.  After crying all that time, I decided to get tested tonight: Positive++.

He was undetectable in November, and in January we started having unprotected sex.  No internal ejaculation, no oral (I don't like it).  I was the bottom, and was likely exposed to his precum.

I am very confident that I was infected by precum of a man with an undetectable viral load (in his blood, his semen may have been higher).  Our clinic verified he has no other STDs.

My #1 reason to start having unprotected sex was the Swiss Report on the Sexually Noninfectious.  I trusted their statistics.

We did not meet the criteria - he was undetectable for two months, the report claims six months.  Also the report was for heterosexuals not gays/anal.

But in any case, there is a lot of confusing messages out there giving precum a low chance of infection, and now undetectable virual loads having a low chance.  BUT BEWARE!!  You can *still* get infected with precum, even if they are undetectable.  I am evidence.

I haven't responded emotionally to being poz yet, I'll probably start crying soon.  I'm still in shock and I don't have anyone to talk to now that my boyfriend is gone.



October 2007 - Chose love/stupidity over protection
23 April - Diagnosed
30 April - CD4: 364/22.1% VL: 2,198
11 July - Started Viramune/Truvada
13 August - Undetectable

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 04:55:14 AM »
Welcome Tony.


Offline darwin

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Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 05:29:00 AM »
Thanks Matty!   ::)
October 2007 - Chose love/stupidity over protection
23 April - Diagnosed
30 April - CD4: 364/22.1% VL: 2,198
11 July - Started Viramune/Truvada
13 August - Undetectable

Offline keyite

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Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 06:11:52 AM »
Sorry, but the thing to 'beware' of is trying to apply bits of science to circumstances or behaviours they never were intended for. You clearly didn't meet the criteria they set out - the biggest one of which would be that the Swiss deliberately didn't include anal sex in their statement. Vaginal and anal sex are very different with respect to risk of infection. That transmission can take place without ejaculation is really nothing new.

That said, I guess this does show the risk of putting these types of statements out there - even with caveats attached people may try to apply them inappropriately. It is part of the story too that the Swiss doctors probably never intended this for a world-wide audience, even although it ended up that way. Rather I think they were trying to apply pressure to have their domestic legislation regarding pozzies changed (Switzerland has some of the most draconian laws around where you can be convicted if you have unprotected sex even though you have disclosed fully beforehand).

I'm still personally unsure if you can be that absolute about it, i.e. noninfectious. But I do think there is a lot of merit to making the point that having an undetectable VL is likely to mean significantly less infectiousness. Not as a licence to abandon condoms but as a way to lessen those - sometimes extreme - fears of infecting others that many pozzies have.

But all this is really water under the bridge. What matters now is that you get the right medical care and find sources of support for the time ahead. Your boyfriend leaving you plus the diagnosis is a real double-whammy. Are there really no-one else you could confide in? If not, perhaps there is counselling available at your local ASO? Or a support group? I was initially part of a bi-weekly group for newly diagnosed gay men and now use a monthly more general group for poz gay men - it really has made a world of difference in me adjusting to life being poz.

Also, welcome to the forums. They can be a good source of support, particularly if it really is impossible to find any real-life sources. The 'Living With' forum gets a lot more traffic so is a good place for asking all those questions that might emerge over the coming weeks.

Looking forward to hearing more from you..

Offline BT65

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Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 08:50:15 AM »
Welcome to the forums, Tony.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Condom and Lube Info http://www.aidsmap.com/Condoms/page/1044833/
Please check out our lessons on PEP and PrEP. http://www.poz.com/factsheets/fs_2014_09_prep.pdf


Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2008, 11:40:23 AM »
Welcome, Tony. You're handling a lot right now so I am glad you found your way here. Keep taking lots of deep and slow breaths in and out when you find yourself feeling overwhelmed as that may happen from time to time. Testing positive is enough in itself and when you mix in a breakup, well like I said, that's a lot.

It takes time to get adjusted to living with HIV. There's no rush. It is important to have a doctor who's going to watch your numbers and whom you can form a good working partnership to keep you healthy.  Gradually you're going to learn everything you need to know. Because you had a bf who is positive, you probably already are familiar with some of the basics.

This is a place where you can come to ask questions and talk about anything that's on your mind. Check out the lessons as  you may find some useful information there as well.

Again, welcome.

Andy Velez

Offline Peter6836

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  • Me and my Granddaughter Noa
Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2008, 12:23:34 PM »
Welcome Tony,
There are people here that you can talk to.

Offline dolcevita08

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Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2008, 03:19:33 PM »
Hi Tony-

Welcome to the site. As someone else who was very recently diagnosed (two weeks ago), I can attest that this site can be a huge help and resource.  If you need anything or just want to talk feel free to PM anytime.

Dance as though no one is watching. Love as though you have never been hurt before. Sing as though no one can hear you. Live as though heaven is on earth.

Offline pozniceguy

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  • Niceguy Dallas
Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2008, 04:25:38 PM »
Welcome Tony  you have found the right place...there are new guys like yourself and some "old" guys  in terms of living with this for a long time  and everything in between...take Andy's advice  he is one of the "old" guys   try to get info a little at a time..be sure to ask whatever questions you have   nothing is forbidden  this is a very open forum...

Nick  ( one of the "old" guys
remember the good times...honor the past but don't live there
Le stelle la notte sono grandie luminose, nel cuore profondo del Texas

Offline aliveinla

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  • Posts: 247
Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2008, 08:55:42 PM »
Welcome. I hope you feel better soon.

We have one thing in common: I too was infected by someone's precum (or maybe blood), the only guy I had unprotected sex last year never cum inside me and now I am poz.
4/24/07: Last tested Neg
1/22/08: First tested Poz
1/30/08: CD4 393; 28%; VL: 44k
3/18/08: CD4 218; 26%; VL: 222K
4/24/08: CD4 402; 26%; VL: lab forgot
7/22/08: CD4 405; 25%; VL: 6,780
10/15/08: CD4 340, 26%; VL: N/A
2/4/09: CD4 394, 26%; VL: N/A
Jun 09: CD4 300, 25%; VL: 4000
Oct 09: CD4 324, 23%, VL: 10K
11/22/09: started Atripla
11/20/11: CD4 405; VL: UD

Offline komnaes

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  • Posts: 1,899
Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 12:57:29 PM »
Hope you'd find the forums as useful as most of us do Darwin!

Hugs, Shaun
Aug 07 Diagnosed
Oct 07 CD4=446(19%) Feb 08 CD4=421(19%)
Jun 08 CD4=325(22%) Jul 08 CD4=301(18%)
Sep 08 CD4=257/VL=75,000 Oct 08 CD4=347(16%)
Dec 08 CD4=270(16%)
Jan 09 CD4=246(13%)/VL=10,000
Feb 09 CD4=233(15%)/VL=13,000
Started meds Sustiva/Epzicom
May 09 CD4=333(24%)/VL=650
Aug 09 CD4=346(24%)/VL=UD
Nov 09 CD4=437(26%)/VL=UD
Feb 10 CD4=471(31%)/VL=UD
June 10 CD4=517 (28%)/VL=UD
Sept 10 CD4=687 (31%)/VL=UD
Jan 11 CD4=557 (30%)/VL=UD
April 11 CD4=569 (32%)/VL=UD
Switched to Epizcom, Reyataz and Norvir
(Interrupted for 2 months with only Epizcom & Reyataz)
July 11 CD=520 (28%)/VL=UD
Oct 11 CD=771 (31%)/VL=UD(<30)
April 12 CD=609 (28%)/VL=UD(<20)
Aug 12 CD=657 (29%)/VL=UD(<20)
Dec 12 CD=532 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
May 13 CD=567 (31%)/VL=UD(<20)
Jan 14 CD=521 (21%)/VL=UD(<50)

Offline Winiroo

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  • Posts: 2,082
  • Positive since 1991
Re: Beware the Swiss 'noninfectious' report - I'm poz!
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 01:30:06 PM »
Welcome to AIDSmeds.

I'm stuck on the phrase "low chance of transmission"

Low chance and no chance is not the same thing. Even if he fit into the criteria for the report it has the fail safe words "low chance."

I'm not intentionally trying to sound harsh. Sorry if I have come off that way.


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