Cunnilingus, Deep French Kissing and HIV

[worriedandstressed]

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post here. It seems like a wonderful forum with many helpful people.

At the moment I am a very worried man. I am 44 years old, and I am very worried that I may have caught HIV whilst peforming UNPROTECTED cunnilingus and deep french kissing involving saliva exchange.

I know that it has been said on this website and some others that the risk in my situation is very low BUT THE FACT IS THAT THE RISK IS NEITHER ZERO NOR CLOSE TO NEGLIGIBLE but just lower than unprotected vaginal intercourse. I also know that the San Francisco clinic doesn't even state HIV as a risk rom cunnilingus but what I am worried about is that THERE SEEMS TO BE NEW EVIDENCE THAT ORAL SEX IS MUCH RISKIER THAN PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT - AND MOST IMPORTANTLY RECENTLY THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW DOCUMENTED CASES OF HIV BEING TRANSMITTED THROUGH UNPROTECTED CUNNILINGUS.

My sex life with my wife is virtually zero, so in the last year or so I have been visiting prostitutes to get rid of my sexual urges. I have now had sexual encounters on about 8 occasions in the last year - all with prostitutes here in England. The prostitutes I have visited are not street prostitutes but well presentable girls from escort agencies.

I have NEVER engaged in unprotected vaginal intercourse. I always use a condom and then check whether it is still in tact. Unfortunately, during the last three times I performed UNPROTECTED CUNNILINGUS on a working girl and on the last two occasions, I also engaged in very deep wet kissing. The girl involved had a black patch on her skin near her hip which seemed like either hyperpigmentation or could it be kaposi's sarcoma? I only noticed the patch after I was finished with the girl. Could that patch suggest that she was HIV positive?

I had my last encoounter on March 18th, and developed flu like symptoms on 29th March, i.e. 11 days later. It has now been one week, and I am still suffering from these symptoms. Usually it takes me 4-5  days to fight off colds but this time it is taking forever. My body temperature has been 98.8 - 99.0 since the last five days, normally it is 98.0

I also have aches near my ear canals. It feels like jaw pain. Maybe it is my lymph glands in that area that are producing the pains. Finally, I also have muscular aches and pains. My oral health is OK but not brilliant. I have very mild gingitivitis.

QUESTIONS:

1. How likely is it that I am infected with HIV through cunnilingus or deep french kissing, bearing in mind my history of mild gingivitis.

2. I got my symptoms 11 days after encounter. Is this the usual amount of time it takes for HIV to show up symptoms in its acute stage?

3. Could the black skin patch suggest the girl was HIV positive?

4. Has there really been new evidence that suggests that unprotected cunnilingus is much riskier than previously thought?

I am quite worried and stressed, so please advise me on my chances of being HIV positive.

Thanks,

Worried and stressed

[RapidRod]

There is no risk for contracting HIV through cunnilingus or French kissing.

[Ann]

worried,

1, EXTREMELY unlikely.

2, Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some people never have symptoms at all.

3, No. You cannot tell a person's hiv status by looking at them.

4, No. All the current evidence shows that cunnilingus is NO RISK for hiv infection.

Hiv transmission doesn't stand a chance of happening via female genitals to mouth - there are just too many obstacles on the oral route.

The first obstacle is the mouth itself. The mouth is a veritable fortress, standing against all sorts of pathogens we come into contact with every minute of our lives. It's a very hostile environment and saliva has been shown to contain over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that damage hiv.

Hiv is a very fragile virus - literally. Its outer surface doesn't take kindly to changes in its preferred environment; slight changes in temperature, moisture content and pH levels all damage the outer surface. Importantly, it needs this outer surface to be intact before it can latch onto a few, very specific cell types and infect. 

Which leads to the second obstacle. Hiv can only latch onto certain types of cells, cells which are not found in abundance in the mouth.

The third obstacle to transmission this way is having hiv present in the first place. The female secretion where hiv has been shown to be present is the cervicovaginal fluid. This fluid is actually a thick mucus that covers and protects the cervix.

The fluid a woman produces when sexually excited comes from the Bartholin's glands, located on either side of the vaginal opening. I have yet to discover one shred of evidence (and believe me, I've looked) that shows this lubricating fluid to have any more hiv present than other bodily secretions such as saliva, sweat or tears. Saliva, sweat and tears are NOT infectious fluids.

So there you have it. Once the results of the serodiscordant studies started rolling in, what we know about hiv transmission on the cellular level was validated. The only people who were getting infected were those who had unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse. Period. One of the three studies went on for ten years and involved hundreds of couples. That's a lot of nookie.

You haven't had a risk in anything you bring to us. If you cannot bring yourself to believe us, test, collect your negative result and move on.

Ann


edited to remove a crappy link

[worriedandstressed]

worried,

1, EXTREMELY unlikely.

2, Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some people never have symptoms at all.

3, No. You cannot tell a person's hiv status by looking at them.

4, No. All the current evidence shows that cunnilingus is NO RISK for hiv infection.

Hiv transmission doesn't stand a chance of happening via female genitals to mouth - there are just too many obstacles on the oral route.

The first obstacle is the mouth itself. The mouth is a veritable fortress, standing against all sorts of pathogens we come into contact with every minute of our lives. It's a very hostile environment and saliva has been shown to contain over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that damage hiv.

Hiv is a very fragile virus - literally. Its outer surface doesn't take kindly to changes in its preferred environment; slight changes in temperature, moisture content and pH levels all damage the outer surface. Importantly, it needs this outer surface to be intact before it can latch onto a few, very specific cell types and infect. 

Which leads to the second obstacle. Hiv can only latch onto certain types of cells, cells which are not found in abundance in the mouth.

The third obstacle to transmission this way is having hiv present in the first place. The female secretion where hiv has been shown to be present is the cervicovaginal fluid. This fluid is actually a thick mucus that covers and protects the cervix.

The fluid a woman produces when sexually excited comes from the Bartholin's glands, located on either side of the vaginal opening. I have yet to discover one shred of evidence (and believe me, I've looked) that shows this lubricating fluid to have any more hiv present than other bodily secretions such as saliva, sweat or tears. Saliva, sweat and tears are NOT infectious fluids.

So there you have it. Once the results of the serodiscordant studies started rolling in, what we know about hiv transmission on the cellular level was validated. The only people who were getting infected were those who had unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse. Period. One of the three studies went on for ten years and involved hundreds of couples. That's a lot of nookie.

You haven't had a risk in anything you bring to us. If you cannot bring yourself to believe us, test, collect your negative result and move on.

Ann

Ann,

Thank you so much for reassuring me. Actually I went ahead and had an HIV test done. I know it is early days yet, but at least it is better than nothing. The test result was negative at about three weeks.

Just one thing. You say "The female secretion where hiv has been shown to be present is the cervicovaginal fluid. This fluid is actually a thick mucus that covers and protects the cervix.

The fluid a woman produces when sexually excited comes from the Bartholin's glands, located on either side of the vaginal opening. I have yet to discover one shred of evidence (and believe me, I've looked) that shows this lubricating fluid to have any more hiv present than other bodily secretions such as saliva, sweat or tears. Saliva, sweat and tears are NOT infectious fluids."

I am a bit confused because during unprotected intercourse, it is the same fluid that causes HIV, yet for cunnilingus the same fluid does not become that much infectious. Am I getting confused between the two different vaginal fluids you have mentioned?

Reading the internet, I have only ever come across just one vaginal fluid or lubricant as they call it. From my reading of the internet, I have not been able to find two distinct types of female vaginal lubricants.

Any comments?


edited to remove a crappy link

[Ann]

worried,

The cervix is deep inside the vagina and when you have unprotected intercourse, the head of your penis rubs up against it. When you go down on a woman, your tongue doesn't get anywhere near the cervix unless you've got the longest tongue in history. The lubricating fluid at the opening of the vagina and cervicovaginal fluid are two different things.

Believe me, if going down on a woman were a risk for hiv infection, we'd tell you. It isn't.

Ann

[worriedandstressed]

Hello Everyone,

It has been several years since I posted a message here.

I am in Toronto, Canada and I have just come back from seeing an escort through a reputable agency. She was not a street hooker but a high end escort.

The escort and I got carried away and were both enjoying things. We were involved with deep wet french kissing. It became so rough that I ended up with a cut lip which later became bruised. My lip was bleeding a little and I could see the blood on the tissue. Very small amount. The bleeding stopped a few minutes later.

There was a lot of saliva exchange resulting in saliva entering the area of the cut. What further frightens me is that I performed unprotected cunnilingus with her earlier, and it is possible that I could have had a cut lip at that time before I noticed it. She was quite wet with excitement.

I did not engage in unprotected sexual intercourse. It was done via a condom which was in tact.

Today is a Sunday, and I am unable to find anyone here who can provide me with PEP.

Please let me know if a PEP would be advisable given my circumstances, so that I can visit a clinic here and spend $600-$1000 on drugs.

Also, am I now at high risk of contracting HIV given my circumstances?

Any suggestions would be very much appreciated, as I am quite worried and stressed right now.

[Matty the Damned]

Please keep all your thoughts questions and comments in your original thread. This helps us follow your story and give you the most accurate advice.

If you cannot find your original thread, please click the red link I have posted above. Alternatively you can use the "Show own posts" thread which appears in the uppermost left hand column on any forum page.

Your questions will not be answered unless you return to your original thread.

Please take the time to read our Welcome Thread and familiarise yourself with the posting guidelines.

MtD

[worriedandstressed]

Dear Matty,

The original thread is two years old and has nothing to do with my incident of today.

Is it OK if I keep this as a new thread? It is about whether I need PEP and about my chances of getting HIV.

Let me know.

Thanks.

worriedandstressed

[Matty the Damned]

The "no new threads" rule is absolute and non-negotiable. You are not permitted to start a new thread.

If you want your questions answered you must return to your original thread.

MtD

[Andy Velez]

First of all, I have merged your threads. Please follow our rule and keep all of your entries in this same thread.

Secondly, you're totally off base in considering your deep kissing and cunnilingus one to be something that requires PEP. Neither one of those activities are confirmed risks for HIV transmission. In fact the only such sexual activities which we know are risky for HIV transmission are unprotected vaginal and anal intercourse. Everything else is risky theoretically but in the real world of HIV we know risk is about unprotected intercourse.

You are worrying needlessly and from looking at your previous entries it seems you are not applying any of the information which was previously given to you, information which you are supposed to remember and apply to ongoing sexual experiences.

There is no need for PEP. There is a need for you to stop and think about what you're doing and whether it really is a risk or not based on HIV science and not just your anxiety. You used a condom for intercourse which is exactly what you are supposed to do. They provide very effective protection against HIV transmission.

There is no need for testing over this latest. However, we always caution that other STDs are much easier to acquire than HIV. So if you are sexually active it's a good idea at least annually to have a full STD panel done.

[worriedandstressed]

Andy and Matty,

Thanks for moving this thread and merging it with my previous threads. I do apologize for this inconvenience.

Andy, I appreciate your reassurance and realize that deep kissing and cunnilingus are theoretical risks only, but what I have emphasized really is the bleeding cut on my lip. Had there been no cut, I would not have posted this message.

Does the cut that bled, change your thoughts and views?

Regards,

worriedandstressed

[Andy Velez]

I understood perfectly well about what you are calling "a cut" on your lips. And no, it absolutely does not change my evaluation of this as having been a no-risk incident. Your saliva contains over a dozen proteins and elements which very effectively prevent the transmission of viable HIV if it is present.

You are worrying needlessly.

Incidentally, many men seem to to think because they are with a sex worker they are at greater risk. In my experience sex workers often take far greater care to be practicing safer sex than civilians do. But in any case, in this instance nothing you did put you at risk for HIV.

[worriedandstressed]

Andy,

You're my hero. Thanks for reassuring me.

I can now have a good night's sleep.

Take care.

[Andy Velez]

Good. You're welcome.