Another cunnilingus scare

[Anxious always anxious]

My story as follows. I'm a 30 something heterosexual male living in Oz , last tested for full suite of STD's including HIV 8 months ago, all clear. No risk scenarios since then until...

12 days ago I picked up a female of unknown hiv status at a bar (well actually in the bar toilets). Kissing, followed by me fingering her, followed by me going down on her while fingering her. Whole episode lasted 10 minutes and my pants stayed on the whole time (she didn't touch me).

Lots of vaginal secretions, no evidence of menstruating, and my oral hygiene pretty good (occasional bleeding gums, no ulcers at the time, probably brushed 6 hours earlier, and then 30 minutes after encounter). I was drunk and under the influence of illicit substances (hence the pants on, I was numb from the waste down)...

I'm an anxious person anyway, and now I'm convinced of symptoms - specifically what I think is minor thrush (white tongue, some other tongue discolouration, sinus headache, and as of this morning painless splotch on head of penis). Headaches from 5 days after incident, tongue issues about 9 days after, penis this morning).

Appreciate you don't comment on symptoms but anxiety getting the better of me.  In all reality will probably stress unless tested,  but if I could get your opinions on risk and whether testing over this incident warranted it would be greatly appreciated - particularly as I've never had thrush to my knowledge (indicator of weakened immune from seroconversion??). As you can appreciate, nipping off to the toilet every 30 minutes to check tongue, genitals and body for rash, plus reading medical papers and blogs on work time for the next 3 months is not healthy. Therapy also being considered...

Thanks in advance guys...I think

[Jim Allen]

Hi

So yeah checking your genitals every 30 mins might be fun but could end up with you being arrested if someone gets the wrong idea. 

Okay look kidding aside, stop stressing and worrying! Its doing you no good whatsoever and will make you sick. I hope you don't stress out from sex each time like this its not good.

Firstly there has simply never been a documented case of HIV transmission via fingering, you will not be the first.  As for the cunnilingus, see the fluid a woman produces when sexually excited comes from the Bartholin's glands, this is a lubricating fluid and does not have any more hiv present than other bodily secretions such as saliva, sweat or tears. Saliva, sweat and tears are not infectious fluids.

Keep in mind that HIV firstly needs to be present for it to be a risk and in sufficient quantity for it to transmit, it also than needs an effective route, and it must also reach cells which are susceptible to infection.  Simple Cunnilingus does not meet the biological requirements.

All I can tell you is calm down and move on with your life, test as normal at least yearly for STI & HIV as routine.

Here's what you need to know in order to avoid hiv infection:
Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, every time, no exceptions.

Keep in mind that some sexual practices which may be described as ‘safe’ in terms of HIV transmission might still pose a risk for transmission of other STI's, so please do get fully tested regularly and at least yearly for all STI's including but not limited to HIV and test more frequently if unprotected intercourse occurs

Also note that it is possible to have an STI and show no signs or symptoms and the only way of knowing is by testing.

More information on HIV Basics, PEP, TaSP and Transmission can be found through the links in my signature to our POZ pages, this includes information on HIV Testing

Kind regards

Jim

Please Note.
As a member of the AM I Infected Forum you are required to only post in this one thread no matter how long between visits or the subject matter. You can find this thread by going to your profile and selecting show own post and it will take you here . It helps us to help you when you keep all your thoughts or questions in one thread and it helps other readers to follow the discussion. Any additional threads will be deleted.

[Anxious always anxious]

Thanks Jim, kind of what I expected but nice to read anyway.

It's bizarre, in my 20's I put myself in riskier situations quite regularly, as I'm getting older I'm much more careful (would never have casual unprotected sex) and always thought receiving blowjobs/giving cunnilingus not an HIV risk, although risk for other STDs), but for some reason I'm now stressing about this cunnilingus episode.  No authority ever rules oral risk out completely (probably a liability thing), and as posters can no doubt relate, everyone thinks they'll be that 1 in 10,000/100,000/world first etc.

So just to clarify (and promise I won't ask again) this specific risk incredibly close to zero and the 'white tongue' thing not something I need to follow up HIV testing wise?

And touching genitals seriously harms job progression prospects, well at least at my work.

[Jim Allen]

And touching genitals seriously harms job progression prospects, well at least at my work.

It does in most jobs to be fair - 

Look oral risks vs cunnilingus. Problem is oral covers a number of sins, kissing is oral and is not a risk. However if you had said it was a penis in you mouth (Also oral) I would have told you not to panic and to test as normal despite it being a theoretical risk if you had gaping wounds in your head. Reason is semen is a fluid that is infectious and giving a BJ means you have contact, still no panic needed.

See HIV is only found at infectious levels in a very few fluids and needs a direct route or a route that remains inside the confides of the human body not exposed. Cunnilingus and the fluid is not one of them and is very different from other oral risks as I explained in my post above, anyhow look we can't comment on what others say or post, what you posted simply biologically does not meet the requirements for HIV transmission.

As for the thrush, both HIV-positive and HIV-negative people can develop candidiasis. Most people do have an overgrowth at some stage during their lives, treat it and move on.

Hope you feel better soon.

Jim 

[Anxious always anxious]

Hi team, really hate being 'that guy that keeps posting.' I was doing better but seem to have slipped into anxiety mode last 24 hours. Been doing lots of reading regarding stats in Australia and everything in my favour but convinced I've got mild symptoms. Question as follows, regardless of perceived symptoms, should I just ignore and really not stress at all about the cunnilingus incident, or rather keep an eye on them and use them to determine whether I get tested for this specific incident.

Once again, sorry for the hassle, on the upside for the moderators I've used up my 3 posts now...

[Jim Allen]

If you are sick see a doctor, it is not HIV from the incident posted as HIV is not transmitted in that manner.

You should as an sexually active adult be testing regularly, so test as you normally would. No need to specifically test as you had no HIV risk.

I have voiced concerns about what Australia publishes before, ill just close on a polite note that we don't comment on rubbish. 

Jim

 

[Anxious always anxious]

Hey all, back again....if nothing else at least I’ve contributed some funds to this service.

Sooo, I ended up testing after my previous incident (negative), as well as 2 other times post other ‘low/no risk’ encounters. I’ve also undertaken CBT sessions with various psychs as it’s clear I have an HIV phobia. In all ive tested 5 times in 2 years, most recent being 2 months ago 😔

Regardless, I’m looking for some more written reassurance regarding my latest incident - specifically me performing unprotected cunnilingus (again) last night. No other risk exposures (no vaginal, no anal sex, no IV drug use). Nothing out of the ordinary (she wasn’t menstruating, no meth mouth), lasted for about 30 minutes.

I’m going to STD clinic tomorrow to ask for PEP. Should end up being 36 hrs after exposure although suspect they might deny me based on the low risk.

Assuming however I get prescribed PEP, chance if acquiring HIV from this incident very low correct based on 36 hr window?

Thanks in advance guys and Happy New Year 🥳

[Jim Allen]

Regardless, I’m looking for some more written reassurance regarding my latest incident - specifically me performing unprotected cunnilingus (again) last night. No other risk exposures (no vaginal, no anal sex, no IV drug use). Nothing out of the ordinary (she wasn’t menstruating, no meth mouth), lasted for about 30 minutes.

We have discussed this activity before, and the same as last time - You had no HIV risk from this. Soif this was the one & only sexual encounter you had since last testing than, you simply don't have HIV

As for the cunnilingus, see the fluid a woman produces when sexually excited comes from the Bartholin's glands, this is a lubricating fluid and does not have any more hiv present than other bodily secretions such as saliva, sweat or tears. Saliva, sweat and tears are not infectious fluids.

Keep in mind that HIV firstly needs to be present for it to be a risk and in sufficient quantity for it to transmit, it also than needs an effective route, and it must also reach cells which are susceptible to infection.  Simple Cunnilingus does not meet the biological requirements.

All I can tell you is calm down and move on with your life

I’m going to STD clinic tomorrow to ask for PEP. Should end up being 36 hrs after exposure although suspect they might deny me based on the low risk.

Assuming however I get prescribed PEP, chance if acquiring HIV from this incident very low correct based on 36 hr window?

I truly hope they don't give you PEP as you had no low risk, you simply had no exposure and so no PEP is warranted, the reality is PEP is over prescribed as peace of mind for no risks just because of the mental stress patients present with, however PEP and testing over nothing does not resolve the issue or help you move forward.

Sooo, I ended up testing after my previous incident (negative), as well as 2 other times post other ‘low/no risk’ encounters. I’ve also undertaken CBT sessions with various psychs as it’s clear I have an HIV phobia. In all ive tested 5 times in 2 years, most recent being 2 months ago 😔

I am truly sorry to hear that this irrational phobia continues, glad however to hear you are seeking help for this, however instead of running out and taking PEP and testing and bothering the STI clinic over nothing at all, I would suggest instead seeing a qualified psychiatrist/therapist to further help you learn to cope with your irrational fears & thoughts.

So your assessment in short is the same as last time, move on with your life.

[Anxious always anxious]

Thanks for the prompt response Jim, much appreciated

[Jim Allen]

You're welcome

[Anxious always anxious]

Me again......

Same incident, you’re gonna hate me for wasting your time but....

I ended up starting PEP after 36 hrs. Tested day 1 negative. Day 22 really bad sore throat and ear-ache (while on PEP). Day 25 tested again = negative. Day 28 finished PEP.

Question: IF my sore throat was due to seroconversion, surely it would have shown up as positive regardless of PEP. Or in another way of writing it, would PEP have ‘masked’ my positive result? I’m getting therapy again and slowly progressing but have regressed a bit.

[Anxious always anxious]

PS: PEP gave me crazy diarrhoea. Hard work 

[Jim Allen]

sore throat and ear-ache, really You might as well have stubbed your toe and thought it was HIV, anyhow its not a HIV Symptom!

I'm not also not willing to pretend your fantasy HIV exposure is a real HIV concern, requires PEP or testing. You know this already. So also understand that i'm therefore not going to start pretending that the symptoms from this NO hiv risk scenario is somehow HIV related either. 

If you keep having irrational fears you should be speaking to a therapist to help you learn to cope with your fears, not engaging on the merry-go round of pointless testing or taking HIV drugs. This drama over nothing needs to end for your own mental health.

Finally as I do not believe anyone goes through life only preforming repeatedly the same sex act only, ill remind you of the below.

Here's what you need to know in order to avoid hiv infection:
Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, every time, no exceptions.

Keep in mind that some sexual practices which may be described as ‘safe’ in terms of HIV transmission might still pose a risk for transmission of other STI's, so please do get fully tested regularly and at least yearly for all STI's including but not limited to HIV and test more frequently if unprotected intercourse occurs

 

[Anxious always anxious]

I dunno, buggers on this site (I mean it in a nice way) keep saying they’re getting sore throats after exposures - I focus on this and then I’m stuffed. Im determined not to test AGAIN over this though. Thanks again Jim 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Jim Allen]

You're welcome.

Sore throat is a common issue in life regardless of HIV status, its the paranoid who keep trying to connect the two unrelated matters, its one of the reasons we have a "Am I infected" forum filled to the brim with HIV negative sore throat sufferers 

[Anxious always anxious]

So went for a test yesterday. Received a call today, test came back as “weakly reactive”. They’re rerunning teats but as you can imagine my heads a bit all over the place.

Nurse/doctor said it was right on the ‘borderline’ and if positive would have been indicative of infection in the last few weeks (whereas my cunnilingus exposure + 28 day pep was almost 5 months ago).

I guess I’m after a bit of commentary from moderators as to their thoughts on this?   

[Anxious always anxious]

Don’t know what kind of test was done, but I’m  living in Oz and test was done at an STI screening clinic if that helps?

What’s got me stressing even more about the whole ‘weeks’ thing is that 3 months post PEP finishing = 22 April. This date was 6 weeks ago from yesterday’s result, which maybe fits with the nurses description of being infected weeks ago

[Jim Allen]

Hiya

Its not an indication of anything at this stage.  The nurse is correct though if positive it would be recent and, your result is not related to your concern 5 months ago so forget about that and, I've been clear on that topic before.

Look take a deep breath, I can understand its a shock however false reactive results on initial antibodies tests is something we see here nearly weekly its simply not a diagnosis and needs more blood work done including confirmation testing.

If its is a positive result in follow-up testing its not the end of the world, life with treatment goes on and, although sad, at least you will be picking up on a recent infection i.e from within the last 12 weeks, more likely the last 6 weeks.

Take it easy.

[Anxious always anxious]

Thanks Jim, as you can imagine I’m heading to a pretty dark place.

I ended up calling them back and spoke to the specialist on duty. She seemed to think it’s was a false positive based on what I’d said to her and the strength of the reaction? Said looking back she’d not have told me herself until confirmatory tests and that rapid testing was designed to be super sensitive (basically I’m better off testing with my GP because they do t rapid test)? Not sure I believe her though. Find out Wednesday....

[Jim Allen]

She is correct.

Screening tests are highly sensitive, not very specific and, simply designed to confirm a negative outside the window period of 3 months, any reactive result simply means more specific testing is needed to confirm a negative result.

Hence false reactive results on initial antibodies tests is something we see here nearly weekly its simply not a diagnosis and needs more blood work done including confirmation testing.

Hiya

Its not an indication of anything at this stage.  The nurse is correct though if positive it would be recent and, your result is not related to your concern 5 months ago so forget about that and, I've been clear on that topic before.

Look take a deep breath, I can understand its a shock however false reactive results on initial antibodies tests is something we see here nearly weekly its simply not a diagnosis and needs more blood work done including confirmation testing.

If its is a positive result in follow-up testing its not the end of the world, life with treatment goes on and, although sad, at least you will be picking up on a recent infection i.e from within the last 12 weeks, more likely the last 6 weeks.

Take it easy.

   

[Anxious always anxious]

Sorry to keep harassing you about it but re-reading your first paragraph regarding “screening tests being designed to confirm a negative test outside the window period”, are you saying that IF I DID acquire HIV from the incident 5 months ago (appreciate you don’t think I did) then it would give a stronger reaction rather than the ‘weakly reactive’ it did? (If that makes sense). Or another way of putting it, a real HIV infection showing up as ‘weak’ in ydays test could have only occurred in the last 12 weeks?

[Jim Allen]

The nurse is correct though if positive it would be recent and, your result is not related to your concern 5 months ago so forget about that and, I've been clear on that topic before.

If this weak reactive result turns positive on re-testing, than the first test was preformed within the window period of 3 months since exposure, most likely within 6 weeks of exposure even.

Now more likely its a false reactive, as I said we see them plenty. If its positive it means you had a very recent exposure for the results to be the way they are.
Like I said it would be sad if it was a positive result but on the bright side you are detecting the infection within weeks meaning you can get the best benefits out of staring treatment early.

Let me be clear on this point though, if you ever do acquire HIV no excuse is needed, nobody here will either care, ask or judge how you actually acquired it, the answer is very simple BTW you engaged in some activity that met all the biological & environmental conditions required for transmission, but the 5 months ago story you had no exposure, don't keep pushing this line as it will end in tears.

Jim

[Anxious always anxious]

Very well explained. Thanks Jim, I know you’re used to hearing it in this forum but your comments are very much appreciated 🙏🏻

[Anxious always anxious]

Sorry me again. Find out tomorrow and Ive been in a world of emotional distress all weekend.

Jim, if I had ZERO chance of exposure in the last 12 weeks are you SURE this result couldn’t be from an incident prior to 12 weeks ago? Be honest please don’t lie just to try and give me false hope

[Jim Allen]

Asked & answered already, if it's reactivate you had a recent exposure & my answer is not going to change. It's I'm gathering similar to what you have been told from the nurse.

Keeping in mind that no matter what the outcome you will be okay. I've lived my entire adult life with HIV and, although best avoided it's not the end of the world.

If this weak reactive result turns positive on re-testing, than the first test was preformed within the window period of 3 months since exposure, most likely within 6 weeks of exposure even.

Now more likely its a false reactive, as I said we see them plenty. If its positive it means you had a very recent exposure for the results to be the way they are.
Like I said it would be sad if it was a positive result but on the bright side you are detecting the infection within weeks meaning you can get the best benefits out of staring treatment early.

Let me be clear on this point though, if you ever do acquire HIV no excuse is needed, nobody here will either care, ask or judge how you actually acquired it, the answer is very simple BTW you engaged in some activity that met all the biological & environmental conditions required for transmission, but the 5 months ago story you had no exposure, don't keep pushing this line as it will end in tears.

[Anxious always anxious]

Just had a call from the clinic, bit of a weird conversation...

Doc said they ran the test a couple times, results are in  and then told me that  I “definitely don’t have HIV”...but then asked me to confirm that the cunnilingus incident back in January was my “only exposure” (which I did, and which it was....granted cunnilingus isn’t exposure per se)..

He was a bit cagey when I pressed him on why he worded it in such a way, but from what I could interpret it sounds like they would have asked me to submit a sample  again had I ‘admitted’ to a more recent exposure?? I think this fits with the ‘last few weeks seroconversion stage’ thing we’ve discussed in the posts above? I then raised “what if” non-sexual  scenarios i’d had over the last 6 weeks  like visiting the dentist etc and he said “no, not an issue in Australia etc etc”. He then said that for someone like me with HIV anxiety I’m better off speaking to a doc straight away, instead of going to a screening clinic.  It did sound like English wasn’t his first language which may add to the conversation ambiguity also.

....So I’ve now come away from the conversation thinking that my tests were negative (I did make him confirm over the phone that the additional tests they were running had come in which he categorically said did), but still a little bit apprehensive about his insistence on me confirming my ‘exposure’ date, almost as if there’s some lingering doubt based on how he worded it to me. Am I heading  to the realms of madness or should I go to my GP for a new test? I’ve tested a lot over last 3 years and never had this kind of ambiguity from docs before. I’m worn out from testing though, the waiting takes a very heavy emotional toll on me. My mind is so, so tired 😞

Thanks

[Jim Allen]

This fits with the result was negative and, unless you have had a very recent sexual exposure you are not disclosing the result is not going to change.

The HIV phobia is something to talk to a therapist about, that is what I would recommend you at least consider  giving your posting history about no-risk situations & continued irrational fears.

[Anxious always anxious]

Thanks Jim. Yes, back to therapy and also going to start relaxation exercises like meditation/yoga etc

[Anxious always anxious]

Back again...have been feeling mildly “off” (sick) intermittently for ages. And when I feel sick my mind automatically starts thinking about HIV and I start lurking on here and Googling elsewhere. I’ve had zero sexual exposures since my previous posts other than my own hand 

After my last post above I made an appointment with the in-house counsellor at the STI clinic. First thing she did was look at my results. Her words were that the initial  ‘mildly reactive’ result was a Hazard Index of 1.02 (as close as I can be to negative, her words not mine), and that 2 other tests (including a Western Blot) were negative, hence why they said I don’t have HIV. Recall this test was exactly 18 weeks (4 months plus change) after finishing a 28 day course of PEP (5 months after the cunnilingus incident). All 3 tests were taken at the same time (can’t remember how many vials were filled)

I’m freaking out because while down the rabbit hole of Google I’ve read a couple sources saying that PEP extends the window period from 3 - 6 months, and that only 97% of seroconversion happens by 3 months - so because of perceived symptoms im thinking maybe I only started seroconverting at 18 weeks and hence why the Western Blot showed a negative result...but that I’ve since gone positive..

I’m going to call the counsellor again today for a session and probably demand another blood test which I’m dreading LIke nothing else. Half expecting a ban from the moderators but I guess writing my thoughts down  makes me feel slightly better for a short time and I guess this question is am I silly getting another test based on what I posted above? 
 
Thanks for listening I guess.

[Jim Allen]

Hiya,

Sorry to see you are back, but to be blunt if you post about this nonsense again for your own good I will give you an immediate ban. I told you in June 2019 already what you needed to know and you might as well be telling me now you have continued concerns about a toilet seat as far as HIV transmission goes.

the result was negative and, unless you have had a very recent sexual exposure you are not disclosing the result is not going to change.

The HIV phobia is something to talk to a therapist about, that is what I would recommend you at least consider giving your posting history about no-risk situations & continued irrational fears.

If this weak reactive result turns positive on re-testing, then the first test was performed within the window period of 3 months since exposure, most likely within 6 weeks of exposure even.

Now more likely its a false reactive, as I said we see them plenty. If its positive it means you had a very recent exposure for the results to be the way they are.
Like I said it would be sad if it was a positive result but on the bright side you are detecting the infection within weeks meaning you can get the best benefits out of starting treatment early.

Let me be clear on this point though, if you ever do acquire HIV no excuse is needed, nobody here will either care, ask or judge how you actually acquired it, the answer is very simple BTW you engaged in some activity that met all the biological & environmental conditions required for transmission, but the 5 months ago story you had no exposure, don't keep pushing this line as it will end in tears.

Jim

[Anxious always anxious]

One more post until my (latest) subscription runs out.

Ended up going for another test at the same clinic, results back today.....very slightly reactive (again) on the screening Elisa, Western Blot negative (again). GUM Doc said I’m negative (admittedly she told me not to test this second time anyway but I refused to listen  ).

This second test taken 12 months after exposure and 11 months after finishing PEP. Therefore I’m satisfied I’m HIV negative.

Just to close out, thanks to Jim for putting up with me on this forum and for not banning me, when by rights he probably should have.

[Anxious always anxious]

Hey Jim, I’m back again!!

Just by way of update, I did ANOTHER test in November 2020 which confirmed a negative result.

Since then I’ve been celibate but exactly 1 week ago had a drunken encounter with a cis-gender woman comprising unprotected oral both ways (I performed cunnilingus, and she performed fellatio). NO penetrative vaginal or anal as I didn’t have a condom, and no menstrual fluids as far as I could tell.

Initially I thought I’d be ok mental health wise (I’ve been in therapy for a couple years now) but I woke up in the middle of the night a bit sweaty (night sweats?!) and hence my anxiety is through the roof again.

Question as follows: any change to cunnilingus being a NO risk activity since last time? I’m convinced I’m starting to experience ARS symptoms and need definitive reassurance (provided cunnilingus advice regarding exposure risks can be definitive of course).

Thanks

[Jim Allen]

What you posted isn't an HIV concern.

Use condoms for any intercourse, and as you are sexually active, test out of standard routine for HIV & STIs yealry.

Also, you might want to consider talking to your healthcare provider about PrEP. PrEP next to offering an additional layer of protection against HIV, might also give you some peace of mind.