POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: shadowfluid on May 17, 2008, 09:58:20 pm
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Just wanted to know if it's ok for us pozzies to eat sushi. Thanks.
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A hotly debated topic.
In general eating raw meat and fish (sashimi) is frowned upon, but there are those who argue that provided the fish is very fresh, prepared in a hygenic manner and your numbers are "ok" then you should have no problems.
I suspect it's a matter of common sense.
MtD
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I wasn't even aware that eating sushi was an issue, I always thought it was good for me. why is it an issue?
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It's an issue of food-borne pathogens and our limited immunity.
Raw food products like sashimi, (not all sushi is uncooked) are more likely to carry dangerous bugs like salmonella than cooked food products.
MtD
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I really find this as much of an issue as regards to the pozzie in question's cd4 level as much as I do the hygenic quality of the prep area. My immunity is not limited at the moment, thank you very much.
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My immunity is not limited at the moment, thank you very much.
Ah, but you're limited in other ways. ;)
MtD
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I see our Man in the Orient™ hovering at present. Hopefully he can offer guidance about raw fish.
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I've eaten sushi for years, even whilst my cd4 count was only 35... but doesn't mean it'll work for you. I am always fussy where I buy it from.
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I have eaten sushi and raw oysters. I have low CD4 and have not experienced any issues from consumption. I know eating raw seafood is risky for anyone regardless of health.
But this is the first time I am hearing this is an issue for poz folks. My doctor never mentioned it to me. I will ask on my next visit. I love seafood and it would be hard to give it up
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I have had sushi for 30 years and have had no problems....maybee i had too much soy sauce
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OK, well I don't usually do sushimi, I am a spider roll, kind of guy. and deals like that, so, I should be good then.
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My first ID doc, back in like 1990, gave me a video about nutrition facts for people with HIV. It warned about raw foods including sushi, bleu cheese, casear dressing (raw eggs) etc. Of course, those were different times. I personally detest sushi and just about everything fish, but that's just me.
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I'll just be clear about what I said previously -- if I had a low cd4 count (and the conservative in me would include anything below 3/400) I'd not touch raw things. Once you get above that there is less risk, though certainly still some risk. Once you're up to 7/800 you're fairly "normal" again so I see no more harm than anyone else.
Most caesar dressing, mayonnaise etc. that comes from a grocery store in a jar is not an issue as far as I know, Betty (they use some pasteurized alternative). It's not the same as being made from raw eggs at home -- and by the way, if you've never made your own mayonnaise from scratch you do NOT know what you are missing.
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When my CD4 count was low, I was advised not to eat Sushi, and to avoid raw eggs like those in eggnog. I was also advised to avoid Oysters and Beef Tartare. Now that my CD4 count is higher that might be moot advice, but I wouldn't touch anything on that list to begin with. I'd puke. :D
Daniel
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Well, my CD4 count is "normal" most of the time but fish has consistently been something that I watch out for. I dont mean raw fish only, I'm talking about fish that has gotten old or not handled properly. Fish prepared at home is not what I refer to, but rather fish prepared at a restaurant. If its a good seafood house or sushi house with a good reputation thats a good bet.
But still, foolishly, I have gotten really really sick from eating fish that was not prepared properly (or was old) several times and I KNEW I should not order fish at the type place we were at.
The first time I got sick from bad fish was at a new-ish restaurant that a freind took me to. He wanted to show off this place. I didnt like that the fish wasnt well cooked and sent it back. To no avail....that night I shit the bed twice and had stomach cramps like you would not believe.
Kurt and I were at a barbeque and the guys planning the event had gone to great effort to buy a HUGE piece of good tuna fish and cooked it on the grill. Kurt and I did not eat any. Everyone who ate some of it got sick.
The most recent time I got sick from eating fish was at a spot we go to a lot. This restaurant had hired a new chef and had a new menu. I tried the "fish and chips". Got sick that night. I will never again order fish there.
I just get tired of watching out for fish so i usually dont order it. And the sad thing is that Kurt will not eat any seafood at all...not even shrimp....so I never get any at home.
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One can get food poisoning from lots of things at ANY cd4 count. I never got food poisoning from anything during all of those years I had a low cd4 count, but then got it just last year (I've had +1000 cd4 count now for 18 months) from eating a "Bentley" salad at Salad Works (http://www.saladworks.com/menu_saladworks.cfm).
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I know that food poisoning can be gotten from eating any number of things....but I have never had food poisoning from anything but seafood.
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My first ID doc, back in like 1990, gave me a video about nutrition facts for people with HIV. It warned about raw foods including sushi, bleu cheese, casear dressing (raw eggs) etc. Of course, those were different times. I personally detest sushi and just about everything fish, but that's just me.
I only eat fish prepared in three ways:
*tuna in a can
*salmon in a can
*fish sticks
I once had a date while in Dallas who took me to the Antares, the restaurant at the top of that revolving ball. I was in shorts, and a tie was required. Overlooking my shorts, and furnishing a tie we were seated and I had to go to the bathroom. Upon my return , there were Cocktails already served, James knew what I liked as we had been at a club 'Happy Hour" and I sat watching the scenery slowly change as the reaturant revolved showing sights of Dallas-to Fort Worth. After a whiile , being hungry, I realized that I had not placed an order for food as the waiter started setting up for food delivery and James hastily replied that he hoped I did not mind, but he had ordered for me while in the bathroom. A huge reddend lobster with yellowed eyes and white stuff vomiting forth from its mouth was set before me. I was horrified and like a petulant child whined that I don't eat seafood and was almost ready to throw up. He called the waiter over and gave the indication to me to order what I wanted. We spent the evening while he ate both lobsters while I happily munched out on a cheeseburger and fries ::)
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I'm craving moules frites now, and beer.
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I hate dishes that requires one to get a dictionary to translate the damn thing. But none the less it sounds fabulous:
http://www.shellfish-lovers.com/moules-marinieres.shtml
I like those "mussles" on a swarthy Turkish oil wrestler tho.
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I've only had food poisoning one time and that was from a sandwich that had mayo on it and had sat under a heating lamp too long.
How anyone can eat any of that exotic seafood stuff is beyond me (like mussel0. It must be an aquired taste. I do love egg nog, though.
Edited to take out double wording.
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Ron...
You and Kurt would get along famously. Kurt will eat tuna sandwiches he makes with tuna from a can....only albacore and no oil....packed in water. And of course he fixes a lunch made up entirely of Mrs Pauls fish sticks. ::) ;D
There are lots of good Italian seafood places here and I do like mussles with marinara sauce. My motto usually is eat seafood where it is the main thing on the menu ...not an afterthought. That pretty much assures its fresh.
Joel
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I hate dishes that requires one to get a dictionary to translate the damn thing. But none the less it sounds fabulous:
http://www.shellfish-lovers.com/moules-marinieres.shtml
I like those "mussles" on a swarthy Turkish oil wrestler tho.
Really? Then next time you and I go out to dinner we'll have to go the the Belgian mussels place I recently found on Lombard! It's supposedly excellent.
http://www.zotrestaurant.com/
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Ron...
You and Kurt would get along famously. Kurt will eat tuna sandwiches he makes with tuna from a can....only albacore and no oil....packed in water. And of course he fixes a lunch made up entirely of Mrs Pauls fish sticks. ::) ;D
There are lots of good Italian seafood places here and I do like mussles with marinara sauce. My motto usually is eat seafood where it is the main thing on the menu ...not an afterthought. That pretty much assures its fresh.
Joel
:D I like my fishsticks with tater tots. I should have felt bad that he had to pay for two lobsters, (I understand that they are not cheap) but I thought that he should have asked me first, or let me order. ahh. the old days when I was young and could get away with stuff like that...
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I hate dishes that requires one to get a dictionary to translate the damn thing. But none the less it sounds fabulous:
http://www.shellfish-lovers.com/moules-marinieres.shtml
I like those "mussles" on a swarthy Turkish oil wrestler tho.
Me, too. And sushi is pretentious sissy food. :P
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Me, too. And sushi is pretentious sissy food. :P
I'm sure if you could get it through a drive-through window with 5 packets of ketchup on it you'd be there every afternoon.
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I'm sure if you could get it through a drive-through window with 5 packets of ketchup on it you'd be there every afternoon.
Speaking of pretentious sissies...
;D
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I LOVE shushi and was told I could no longer eat it. I was also told to stay away from tap water
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I also stay away from sushi. I don't like gambling. And I also stay away from tap water, because I know more than one PWA who died from complications from cryptosporidiosis, which is not filtered from most tap water, even in large metropolitan areas, and is not filtered from a large number of bottled waters as well. I boil all drinking water for one minute and then refrigerate it. I try to stay away from all raw foods, including salads I haven't prepared myself. Of course, I have long since stopped being bothered by those who accuse me of being insane.
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I love sushi and sashimi, yum. I've been eating it for years. never had a problem.
I'd be more worried about what's in fish sticks. yuck
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I don't much like sushi, but I love sashimi - a big bowl of raw maguro is my dish. And I do eat it fairly often - that is, whenever I go to Bangkok, and it never occcurred to me to worry. I also eat a lot of fish in general, mostly cooked of course. Had mussels today.
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because I know more than one PWA who died from complications from cryptosporidiosis, which is not filtered from most tap water, even in large metropolitan areas, and is not filtered from a large number of bottled waters as well.
yikes. oh my goodness :'(
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I have a Brita system for my water, though I was never really concerned about tap water.
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i personally don't eat sushi,i dont eat anything that is raw,i guess that the reason i got divorced too!!!! :)
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Well, leave it to an engineer like me to pick apart an issue, but not all sushi
is raw fish. The word "sushi" actually refers to the rice. There are many
varieties of sushi that do not include raw fish (e.g. I believe eel and mackerel
are traditionally cooked). Tuna is traditionally raw.
My point being that even if you felt that eating raw fish isn't appropriate for
your situation, you still have options regarding sushi.
Regards,
Henry
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cryptosporidiosis was generally a concern early in the AIDS epidemic, and indeed when I was diagnosed originally and had AIDS defining cd4 counts I was advised of this danger and that I should filter my water. I got in the habit of doing so and have continued to do so. However, there is no medical reason that I need to do this -- I just do it because it seems to taste better. IIRC Brita filters crypto out, but PUR does not.
If there was some huge, widespread danger with tap water you would most assuredly be advised by your doctor and encounter posters at your ASO.
source (http://www.thebody.com/content/art12553.html)
"Although cryptosporidiosis can be acquired at any time during the course of HIV infection, major morbidity and mortality occur almost exclusively in patients with CD4 counts below 180 cells/mm3; above this level, spontaneous recovery generally occurs."
(sorry about that link to The Body, matty :)))
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I love sushi and sashimi, yum. I've been eating it for years. never had a problem.
I'd be more worried about what's in fish sticks. yuck
In a follow up meeting with my ID doc, he suggested I eat more fish.
I said I eat Fish Sticks and frozen French Fries at least once a week ;D Have the best day
Michael
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The only way I like to eat fish is if it's fried, with plenty of tartar sauce.
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/FAIL
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Well, leave it to an engineer like me to pick apart an issue, but not all sushi
is raw fish. The word "sushi" actually refers to the rice. There are many
varieties of sushi that do not include raw fish (e.g. I believe eel and mackerel
are traditionally cooked). Tuna is traditionally raw.
My point being that even if you felt that eating raw fish isn't appropriate for
your situation, you still have options regarding sushi.
Regards,
Henry
Yeah, this is why I like to eat the spider roll, (my favorite) and I also like the green mussels. not to much in the way of raw fish otherwise, except the tuna, love the spicy tuna!!
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In a follow up meeting with my ID doc, he suggested I eat more fish. I said I eat Fish Sticks and frozen French Fries at least once a week ;D Have the best day
A doc dispensing incomplete advice!?!? Not all fish is created equal, and the nutritional gift fish can offer is omega-3 fatty acids. Tuna and salmon are notably good sources of omega-3s, but fish sticks are not. Fries from white potatoes won't redeem the fish sticks.
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Goodness Michael. You live near the ocean and you eat fish sticks? I'm clutching my pearls so hard I'm about to cut off air.
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Thanks to all that responded. My friend was in town and wanted to take me out for sushi (on him). Since I wasn't sure about the safety of raw fish and us pozzies I chose the $40 filet mignon and said "Neener neener!" He was not amused.
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A hotly debated topic.
In general eating raw meat and fish (sashimi) is frowned upon, but there are those who argue that provided the fish is very fresh, prepared in a hygenic manner and your numbers are "ok" then you should have no problems.
I suspect it's a matter of common sense.
MtD
NO it's not common sense that's why I asked. *bitch slaps* :)
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Well, as the one of the food-borne illness aficionado at AIDSMeds, I figured I had better weigh in on this. ;) I just recovered from a bout caused by undercooked scallops a few weeks ago.
I think I have been ill from food-borne contaminants more often than anyone else around here. But I still love sushi, sashimi, oysters on the half shell, steak tartar (the real stuff made from horse, not beef), etc.
The bottom line is not that people with high CD4s can't become ill from something they ate, it is that they are better able to recover should they do so.
If your CD4s are low, you stand a greater chance of developing secondary or more serious infections.
This also goes for parasites, which are prone to be found in uncooked animal products. That also is why it can be a wise to filter your tap water to get rid of things like giardia.
The bottom line is to use common sense. If your T cells are below 400, you may want to eshew the raw goodies for the time being till things improve.
I know one person who washes all of his fruits and veggies regardless of where they came from. He even washes bananas. When he explained why, I understood and concur.
That said, common sense and a bit of caution when necessary can really help a person stay healthy and much happier.
HUGS,
Mark
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The last person who posted on this site about why it might be prudent to wash banana skins before peeling was hounded off the site and given a permanent ban. I hope this does not happen again, but I wouldn't be surprised, Mark, if you and I, "food-borne aficionados" that we are, are accused of being nervous nellies, etc. Sticks and bones, as they say....
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If you have over 400 cd4's and you're scrubbing your bananas then yeah, you're a nervous nelly. Isn't that what klonopin is for? :)
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I'm on Klonopin, thanks. And I don't use it for recreational purposes.
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NO it's not common sense that's why I asked. *bitch slaps* :)
Well honey it should be. -punches you out- ;)
We cook foods to make them taste better, render them more digestable and kill unwanted pathogens. Raw meat, eggs and fish should viewed with suspicion by anyone, particularly those of us with compromised immune systems. So should unpasteurised dairy products.
It's important to remember that seafood spoils very quickly even in the best of conditions. Moreover most of the meat we buy today is raised in mass production feedlots and slaughtered in assembly line abbatoirs. The animals spend most of their lives in cramped, close quarters standing in their own shit.
This isn't to say that what you buy at the shop isn't hygienic as such, but it's certainly intended to be cooked. Rarefied delicacies such as steak tartare and carpaccio come from cultural traditions where livestock was raised and kept in verdent fields, before being killed and butchered in small, home-style operations.
So people should do as they please. But remember there are certain risks (HIV notwithstanding) associated with eating raw animal products. Just because it hasn't happened to the Philodendron (god amongst us that he is) doesn't mean it won't happen to you. :D
MtD
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Actually, contrary to how I may come off in this thread, I do not generally partake of sushi. However, this is simply because I don't enjoy it, not because of any great fear. Red meat I always take at medium rare. And if I want 6 week aged Époisses I will eat it without regret.
I definitely agree with Matty about seafood/fish. I only purchase such products from a reputable, specialty monger. It's worth the extra price.
I'm pretty conservative with this subject, but I also don't believe in living in fear and going overboard with it either. HIV is not a great reason to stop enjoying good food. As stated, I managed to avoid food poisoning for 42 years, and then caught it even though my cd4 count was in the 1,000's, and from a product one would not imagined getting it from. I recovered within 48 hours, and I'd hate to imagine what that recovery would be like if I'd had 200 cd4's.
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I LOVE sushi and sashimi and mussels and all the rest; except raw oysters...never liked those for some reason. Fried oysters, that's a different story. But I think you could deep-fry just about anything and people would eat it.
Growing up in Maryland, seafood was always a part of my diet. Steamed crabs, crabcakes, soft crabs...yummy!!
You simply cannot find good crabcakes here in Texas, so I don't eat those unless I'm back home visiting my folks.
Agreed that I only get seafood at seafood restaurants. If it's a hole in the wall diner and they have seafood on the menu, I usually avoid it. Thank God that my numbers are good enough that I don't think I'd have to worry about it anyway, but I can't imagine life without some raw fish and rare steaks. :P
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Actually, contrary to how I may come off in this thread, I do not generally partake of sushi. However, this is simply because I don't enjoy it, not because of any great fear. Red meat I always take at medium rare. And if I want 6 week aged Époisses I will eat it without regret.
I definitely agree with Matty about seafood/fish. I only purchase such products from a reputable, specialty monger. It's worth the extra price.
I'm pretty conservative with this subject, but I also don't believe in living in fear and going overboard with it either. HIV is not a great reason to stop enjoying good food. As stated, I managed to avoid food poisoning for 42 years, and then caught it even though my cd4 count was in the 1,000's, and from a product one would not imagined getting it from. I recovered within 48 hours, and I'd hate to imagine what that recovery would be like if I'd had 200 cd4's.
For the first time in my life I got food poisoning the day after I was diagnosed from CORN CHOWDER from California Pizza Kitchen. I recovered quickly. That was awful.
edit: spelling