Author Topic: how to improve CD4 count (Read 75981 times)

aliveinla · « **on:** February 14, 2008, 09:24:54 am »

I was just tested poz on 1/22/08 but i know I was infected Feb. 07. My CD4 on 1/30/08 is only 394. Doc told me they die at the rate of about 100/year, so I guess I didn't have good genes and my starting CD4 was at the lower end of the spectrum. I think I need to do something to improve CD4 so that I don't have to take meds in about several months. What are the ways?

1. Exercise? is it good? I read CD4 will be lower after working out.
2. Sleep and rest: will enough sleep help improve CD4?
3. Diet: what diet is good and what is bad?
4. Drinking: will moderate alcohol consumption improve CD4?
Any other ides?

Thank you all.

Andy Velez · « **Reply #1 on:** February 14, 2008, 12:06:28 pm »

Alive, I'm glad you've found your way to our site. I'm wondering what conversation you've had with your doctor about the questions you're asking. One of the best tools to help you stay healthy is to have a good working partnership with your doctor.

You will get more informed responses if you can clarify the above. And yes, you are welcome to ask questions and to discuss anything else that's on your mind.

In a general way I'll just say that of course good nutrition, appropriate exercise and sleep will of course help. In fact, all of the general, good sense things we too often pay no attention to are what you need to be doing.

Say some more about yourself and I expect you will get more responses here.

Welcome.

aliveinla · « **Reply #2 on:** February 14, 2008, 12:37:23 pm »

Andy, thank you for the nice response. I am a gay Chinese male 37yo residing in Los Angeles. Conversation with my HIV doctor was really short because my test report from my PCP didn't arrive until 3 hours after my scheduled appointment with my HIV doctor, so we talked only about 5 minutes regarding my lab (we talked more than an hour while waiting for the result) and I didn't even know what my percentage is (didn't know to ask either). He seems to be a very nice guy had been in HIV treatment since 1981 and he had a picure with Magic Johnson. He sounds compassionate and knowledgable so I think I trust him.

Although I am still in shock, I think I am coping with it nicely... I know friends who had been poz for 20 years and are still healthy so he was the first person I called after I heard I was poz. He and some other firends helped me a lot...

My concern regarding meds isn't because of the side effect or I am lazy taking that daily. Work requests me to travel between China and America frequently. I heard both these two countries reject poz people to enter, and I don't have american citizenship yet. If any customs found my hiv meds, I don't know what to do... I usually travel with a group of my managers and it will be very scary if they find out. They don't even know I am gay, a very conservative company...

Any thoughts will be appreciated. Hungs too.

beachdude2003 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 14, 2008, 01:48:46 pm »

Alive,
I just tested poz on 12-24-08. Sounds like you are handling it very well. I told my boss because I am still dealing with some symptoms of seroconversion. He was really great and stays on me now not to over do myself. I do understand about the traveling. I travel for work (although mine is just in the United States). however, I travel for vacations abroad and I am concerned about that. Your health is the most important thing. Without meds, your cd4 count will keep going down and your viral load will keep rising. Most people are able to wait a few years before starting. I am going to start at the end of the month because I travel everyweek and I am always in airports and working in hospitals. I hope this helps and my prayers will be with you. R

komnaes · « **Reply #4 on:** February 14, 2008, 11:43:44 pm »

Quote from: aliveinla on February 14, 2008, 12:37:23 pm

My concern regarding meds isn't because of the side effect or I am lazy taking that daily. Work requests me to travel between China and America frequently. I heard both these two countries reject poz people to enter, and I don't have american citizenship yet. If any customs found my hiv meds, I don't know what to do...

Hey Alive, I am Chinese too, from Hongkong and for years lived in the US and Canada.

About your travel to China, I wouldn't worry about it too much as China has eased its travel ban for HIV+ folks like us. You can read it here. As for your pending US citizenship, you might want to post the question again in the "Living with HIV" forum as I am sure this has been discussed before.

Hugs, Shaun

Matty the Damned · « **Reply #5 on:** February 15, 2008, 01:56:24 am »

Well let's see here.

1. Exercise? is it good? I read CD4 will be lower after working out.

Yup this is true, but I don't think it's a big deal. Many things can cause your CD4 count to fluctuate. Moderate exercise is important to maintaining good health, and good health is a cornerstone in dealing with HIV infection.

2. Sleep and rest: will enough sleep help improve CD4?

Again this is the maintaining good health thing. But being seriously sleep deprived isn't good for your immune system. Or your system in general.

3. Diet: what diet is good and what is bad?

This is more complex. HIVers should have a well balanced diet. We have a Nutrition and HIV forum where you might find some useful information. Some medications used to treat HIV have specific dietary requirements.

4. Drinking: will moderate alcohol consumption improve CD4?

Not as far as I'm aware. Excessive alcohol will damage your immune function and should be avoided. That said, sensible alcohol use isn't a problem.

Ultimately the only way to improve your CD4 count is to deal with the virus that's destroying your CD4 cells. Currently the only way we know of doing that is by suppressing viral load with anti-retroviral drugs. You're still fairly early on in your infection and you may have a ways to go before you need to consider taking medications.

Oh and welcome to the Forums.

MtD

planonstaying · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2008, 08:08:20 am »

i read Tai Chi can have a positive effect. I am sure if you do some keyword googling you can read the same stuff I did and draw your own conclusions.

komnaes · « **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2008, 10:16:26 am »

Taichi has proven to be good for anyone as it gives the body the good amount of workout that is not stressing it and the immune system like doing heavy exercises in the gym. The good reasons to practice Taichi are - first, it's practiced outdoor and usually people do it in parks, gardens, etc; second, it's only practiced early in the morning, so it's good-habit forming (sleep early, etc), and third, it's practiced often in groups, so it's also a social activity. In that sense it's similar to yoga and is considered good to maintain the wellness of a body. So in that sense it's similar to yoga and is considered good to maintain the wellness of a body, especially for old folks, people like chronic disease that has waken their bodies and recovering patients.

The other more "mystical" Chinese practice is called Qigong, which a lot of people believe has healing property. It stresses more on breathing technique and the traditional Chinese medical principle of Qi (means literally "air" or "energy") that flows in our body. Unlike Taichi, which one may be able to learn easily by following books or DVDs, the technique of Qigong is more difficult to master as it often involves "imagining" the Qi flowing through out one's body while doing certain motions, combining with the right breathing.

It's the sort of an urban myth that not only practicing Qigong can cure serious disease like cancer, real Qigong masters can use their Qi (or energy) to heal diseases. The idea is the same as Reiki. Of course it's no more than a myth.

What I believe though both Taichi and Qigong, if practice correctly, are both good exercises, no more no less.

aliveinla · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2008, 01:30:45 pm »

Thank you all for the responses and support... that means a lot to me. Let's all hang in here and pray for a cure..

SouthSam7 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2008, 08:50:33 pm »

Let's take these one at a time:

1. Exercise? is it good? I read CD4 will be lower after working out.
Your cd4s may very well go down a little after working out, as is my case. My doctor says, however, that the exercise is much better than not.
2. Sleep and rest: will enough sleep help improve CD4?
YES! More importantly, lack of sleep will interfere with healthy cd4 growth.
3. Diet: what diet is good and what is bad?
Don't eat a lot of fried stuff. Eat "whole" foods, fresh vegetables and fruit.
4. Drinking: will moderate alcohol consumption improve CD4?
I drink a glass or two of wine every night. Just watch your liver enzymes and if you have a drinking problem, get help! Excess alcohol will screw up your liver then you will not have many hiv med options.

My doc says to watch viral load more and cd4s less (because they can fluctuate for various reasons).
Try to get some sort of exercise every day! Even if it's push ups and 60 seconds of jumping jacks or squat thrusts. Anyone else have something to add to my post? Anyone disagree? Good luck! Sam

BT65 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2008, 10:02:17 am »

Yes, I think everything our mums told us is probably good. But realistically, who does all of it? I myself am a huge fried food fan. My sleep habits have been screwed up for years. I smoke, therefore I don't exercise. The only thing I don't indulge in is drinking, but that's because of my tendency to overboard on anything that makes me feel good.

I used to be more health conscious when I was first diagnosed, and even at various times throughout the years. Now, I've just settled in and try to live in the most comfortable state I can be in.

I'm not saying you, Ali, should not do all the things you mentioned. Far be it from me to tell someone to live as I do. I think we all just do the best we can.

achim-martin · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2008, 11:03:13 am »

Man, what do you mean by ...taking meds in several months?
Are you crazy? Sorry for those harsh words but truly you are on the edge of getting serious and never ending illnesses if you don't start meds NOW!
Sideeffects are much less while CD4 counts are still high, the entire body hasn't suffered as much when stopping the virus immediately after discovering it, and other deseases will be less apparent as well. Also, the premature aging and all thats related to it can only be stopped if you start HAART now.

Regarding increasing the CD4...: 50mg Zinc and HAART is a good combination. Some protein to fill up the protein resources in your muscles.
And when youre below detection you may consider doing some Interleukin II treatments.
But for this you need to be above 300 CD4 in order to make it work best.
Good results by tripling the figures can be achieved by taking injections of around 4 to 5 Mio i.E. Interleukin II for 4 to 5 days. Repeat that for three consecutive months to four times and once again a year later.
This will result in a pretty much fully recovered status.
Officially IL II is still not "allowed" for HIV treatment in several countries, but you can be enrolled in studies or pay for it yourself. Hey, its about your life, so maybe no new car next year but a healthy body and a grand future!

CD4 cells are THE immune center of your body. Cancer, aging, illnesses of all sorts... it all depends on a high number and big variety of cd4 cells. So keep them as high as
possible.

For people above 40 its a good advise to also take some thymosines. They are important to develope healthy cd4 cells, but get less while aging. So in order to rebuild the system they can be supportive as well.
Good luck!!!

aliveinla · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2008, 11:46:29 am »

Thanks Martin. Are you a doctor or can you share with me what your qualification is? I read that CDC's recommendation to start meds is at 350. I am also concerned starting meds too early will start possible side effects prematurely and limit my future treatment options. Can you provide some background info of your qualification?

BT65 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2008, 12:03:44 pm »

Ali, I would follow the advice of your doctor. I don't think Achim is a doctor at all. Yes, starting HAART early can limit treatment options in the future. And the Interleukin therapy, while I'm not familiar with it, seems far-fetched to me.

SouthSam7 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2008, 03:15:35 pm »

I've discovered, though a lot of research on my own, that most treatment option limiting is caused by missed doses (adherence issues). Don't worry about starting too soon if that's what your caregivers think you should do. Just take them like you're supposed to.

Sam

BT65 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2008, 03:18:40 pm »

Um, o.k., but I started meds in the early 90's, was always adherent and have several resistance issues. Just have a good heart-to-heart with your doctor and follow his/her advice.

SouthSam7 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2008, 04:46:12 pm »

Point taken, Betty.

I guess the source of my (mis?) information was my big shot research doctors at UAB, a major hiv research hospital in Birmingham. They wanted to take me off my somewhat dated regimen. I voiced concern about becoming resistant from changing drugs. They told me that bit about becoming resistant from non-adherence, not so much from controlled changing of drugs.

I quit going to them (too big, too many patients) and I'm still on my original regimen after over two years at my little clinic in Dothan, AL.

I don't pretend to know everything about hiv. I'm sticking with what works for me (boosted PI and Truvada). Good luck,
Sam

achim-martin · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2008, 05:32:13 pm »

No, I am not a doctor. Actually I am just an ordinary High School guy now almost 50, who happens to be able to learn by doing, experiences and lots of learning and studying the subject.
My partner got infected 1996 and after his hep a was gone he started HAART a.s.a.p. Now he's 43 and with this HAART treatment plus later on the IL II treatments he's now having better figures than I have (am not infected myself) He's below detection for more than 10 years now and even those hidden virus tests (1 Mio cells) were negative. CD4 rose from 600 back than to over a 1000 under IL II, CD8 around 750 and remains there ever since.
If you want to learn more about Interleukin II and the various tests check out the internet plus read the book of Dr.Mahlon Johnson, who was our inspiration back then.

You can't start too early, if you take your meds correctly. Side effects are especially strong with people below 300 CD4. The body has suffered already so much, it has difficulties to cope with this sort of medication. Future treatments with other groups of hiv-meds still are and will be in option.
One reason some clinics and doctors propose IL II is the fact, that it eliminates a great deal of hidden viruses in the cd4 cells and also in the macrophages. That way it minimizes the risk of having those pop up again, when one can't take the meds in the future dueto illness, or whatever reason there may be like accidents etc. The virus takes every chance to replicate again.

This is not just MY theory, but the experience of a lot of patients. Just a few weeks ago a friend of mine died. He was positive and waited til all of a sudden he got pneumonia - unexpected to him - well, it took 1 and a half horrible years for him and his lover til he died in Berlin - had waited to long. His doctor had recommended him to wait til the cd4 counts would have dropped, he could stills start the medication. In the past years I have learned by a lot of friends that those who get treatment on time and take it really correctly have a far better life than those who think they can wait.

My partner and lover is a patient of a clinic here in the canaries who are specialised on HIV. This doctor who is in charge travels around the world to those conventions , is very well informed and here in Spain they even give IL II treatments. He agrees fully to this. My partner had done it back in Germany 8/9 years ago and continous taking HAART here in Spain.

You have a choice, my recommendation is simply don't dare your life, don't take chances. To rebuild a body and all of its functions later on is almost impossible and very rare. I am very much involved in the subject and may be sounding to strict on this, but I can just hope you understand, I don't intend to intimidate anyone but have just experienced so much naitivity lately, it makes me sick...

Matty the Damned · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2008, 05:39:58 pm »

You can't start too early, if you take your meds correctly.

Actually Martin, yes you can start too early.

I appreciate your position, coming as it does from the mid 1990's when things were dire and new medications leaped upon with considerable and understandable enthusiasm.

What we've discovered since then is that HAART is toxic stuff and that the "hit hard, hit early" approach isn't all it was cracked up to be. Whilst one shouldn't let one's numbers drop below certain levels, there is much to be said for a careful, thoughtful attitude to commencing something as serious as AIDS treatment.

When people who are not ready jump in, things can go horribly wrong. For most of us (including the OP of this thread) there is always time to take a deep breath, consider one's options and make a careful, sound decision based on clinical fact, not emotion.

MtD

aliveinla · « **Reply #19 on:** February 17, 2008, 05:44:59 pm »

Thank you Achim. Since I am still very healthy, I opt to enjoy my last few months of drug free life until my next checkup at 4/8, and after my next trip to China 3/31-4/4. I think I will start my meds after meeting with my HIV doctor on 4/15 if my CD4 is any lower than 360... It was 394 in late January so I am well prepared for it to drop to the CDC suggested 350 level, and I need a few months to adjust...

I am still a little doubtful on your theory that HIV will do irrevisible damages though... Anyway, I think I need a couple months of life w/o drugs. I will be sure to check out the IL II with my doctor see if possible I can get it or if it's good at all. My doctor is a jewish person graduated from a UK medical school practiced in the US for more than 20 years, and he travels to HIV conferences also, I think all these are plus signs...

achim-martin · « **Reply #20 on:** February 18, 2008, 11:43:10 am »

To make this quite clear: we are all adults, everyone is responsible for themself. No doctor can make a decision for you, nor can I.
Secondly, before starting a treatment I can only recommend to have a test on resistant strings of the virus, otherwise the treatment could fail partially, and this may cause a difficult if not impossible treatment in the future.
These tests ought to be done as soon as one finds out about being positive.

If CD4 figures are below 400 I would not recommend to wait any longer with the treatment, cause a serious illness like pneumonia can be sufficient for a break out of actually AIDS, dropping the cd4 counts within a month down to 100 or below. This is what just happened to a friend. He got here to the canaries with figures around 400, wanted to have them checked half a year later again, but that was too late. He got pneumonia, a month later kaposi and the counts were around 50! Now he's dead after almost 2 years of struggling...
This mustn't happen, but chances are big enough it will.

Again, sideeffects are much less, when cd4 counts are still high.

Regarding the IL II treatment: this can only be started/done when the virus is below detection for a while already; this is an important factor to have a successful treatment. I can only recommend to read testresults that can be found on the internet as well.

If people doubt the fact that the virus is killing the immunesystem for good: step by step it does. Some experience it slower, especially young people, some faster (above 35)
cd4 cells are very particular in its structure and the "job" they are doing. If a specific cd4 cell, that fights against a certain desease is gone, its gone...point...they are gone and there won't be much left to help the body fight against aging or illnesses. The lower the numbers are the more problems occur and propably also a shorter life,quality of life, too.

I am aware of the theory that hit hard early won'T be the solution, but when you check out forums, threads even here you will soon realize, that those who started early usually live a normal life furthermore. Am talking about patients after 1995, when HAART was available.

Again, this is MY strong opinion. The subject is far to serious to be soft with this topic. But of course, everyone has to make his own decision. Its YOUR life!

Last but not least: You do need to change your life anyhow - sooner or later. The sooner you do, the better it is for the body. No to almost no alcohol, no cigararettes and a failry balanced diet. That is always good, not just for positive people.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #21 on:** February 18, 2008, 12:19:04 pm »

Quote from: Bettytacy on February 17, 2008, 03:18:40 pm

Um, o.k., but I started meds in the early 90's, was always adherent and have several resistance issues. Just have a good heart-to-heart with your doctor and follow his/her advice.

No offense, but people should always keep in mind that folks like you and I who were on mono or dual therapies before HAART was standardized developed resistance issues for that reason generally, and not due to adherence issues like most people do that have gone on treatment in the past decade. Treatment was different before HAART and they had no clue what they were doing in hindsight.

Just something people here should always be mindful of with this issue, IMO.

BT65 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 18, 2008, 02:39:48 pm »

Quote from: philly267 on February 18, 2008, 12:19:04 pm

No offense, but people should always keep in mind that folks like you and I who were on mono or dual therapies before HAART was standardized developed resistance issues for that reason generally, and not due to adherence issues like most people do that have gone on treatment in the past decade. Treatment was different before HAART and they had no clue what they were doing in hindsight.

Just something people here should always be mindful of with this issue, IMO.

I agree 100%. God, do you remember ddc? That was just an awful thing.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #23 on:** February 18, 2008, 03:03:05 pm »

Quote from: Bettytacy on February 18, 2008, 02:39:48 pm

I agree 100%. God, do you remember ddc? That was just an awful thing.

Yes, also called Hivid. I was on it for years from the very beginning. I'm sure that's what fucked us all up so much, even more than AZT. They don't even prescribe it any more.

BT65 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 18, 2008, 03:30:51 pm »

Quote from: philly267 on February 18, 2008, 03:03:05 pm

Yes, also called Hivid. I was on it for years from the very beginning. I'm sure that's what fucked us all up so much, even more than AZT. They don't even prescribe it any more.

Oh yes, I couldn't think of the name (Hivid). I also remember being put on d4t and 3tc. I must say, they have come quite a ways with current medications.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #25 on:** February 18, 2008, 04:31:58 pm »

Quote from: Bettytacy on February 18, 2008, 03:30:51 pm

Oh yes, I couldn't think of the name (Hivid). I also remember being put on d4t and 3tc. I must say, they have come quite a ways with current medications.

You know, I thought I was on those two at the same time as well, but when I read the aidsmeds.com write up on Hivid it said it should never be combined with 3TC (Epivir) so maybe I wasn't. Or did that "don't combine" rule come out after we were put on them together? You know, I often wish I had access to all of my records from those early years because it's all very spotty. I actually have copies of all of my lab tests from the first year, which is good because if I ever need to prove that I had <200 cd4s it's all there, and in fact I did have to use them a couple of times. I should actually make a copy and put one in my parent's bank box.

I'm thinking that my doctor had me on AZT + Hivid and then once that ran it's course he switched the hivid out for epivir. Also during that time I was on Hydroxyurea, which seemed to be very chic in NYC circles in addition to FDA approved HIV meds, though it was used off-label. Were you ever on that one?

I was also on ddI (Videx) during all of this, but I'm still unclear on what came when those pre-protease inhibitor days. I just know it always seem like things weren't lasting more than 20 months at any one time, but then nothing ever has for me

http://www.aidsmeds.com/archive/Droxia_1901.shtml

BT65 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 18, 2008, 06:24:36 pm »

Oh, I missed being on the Hydroxyurea, but never heard anything good about it. Actually, in this area, is wasn't used as much as I'm sure it was in NYC.

I agree, everything is so unclear when thinking about those days. The doctor that took care of me during my period of wasting shut his office down years ago. I don't know if he kept the records or not. But I would have no problem getting records of since hospitalizations etc. If I ever got all my records, I'm sure I would require a U-haul.

Matty the Damned · « **Reply #27 on:** February 18, 2008, 06:45:36 pm »

The Lesson on Interleukin-II.

MtD

SouthSam7 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2008, 05:13:17 am »

Quote from: philly267 on February 18, 2008, 12:19:04 pm

No offense, but people should always keep in mind that folks like you and I who were on mono or dual therapies before HAART was standardized developed resistance issues for that reason generally, and not due to adherence issues like most people do that have gone on treatment in the past decade. Treatment was different before HAART and they had no clue what they were doing in hindsight.

Just something people here should always be mindful of with this issue, IMO.

OK my bad, I forgot about mono therapy causing resistance issues. It was not my intention to offend anyone here. I will say, however, that I feel strongly about adherence to a fault. If you're going to take the junk, take it like you're supposed to.

I know a couple of guys who go off their meds for about 6 months at a time so they get their energy back, then go back on it when their vl goes up. I tell them that's not a good idea but they would rather "feel normal" than the fatigue, headaches, and stomach problems 365 days a year.

achim-martin · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2008, 07:14:50 am »

That is absolutely vital, no start and stop therapy! Those have all failed!

achim-martin · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2008, 07:25:00 am »

Quote from: matty.the.damned on February 18, 2008, 06:45:36 pm

The Lesson on Interleukin-II.

MtD

In addition to the article another positive sideeffect of IL II is not to be forgotten: by increasing the cd4 counts, meaning forcing them to devide, hidden virus is being revealed. So while taking the HAART meds at the same time - which is vital to succeed - the former hidden viruscells die. This means less reservoirs of the virus, which is a very good thing for the future to consider.
Also the cd4 cells survive up to 5 years, unlike normal cd4 cells that only live for around 6 months.

A lot of regular HAART treated people get resistant strains after even 5 years, as far as I know this risk can be reduced with IL II therapy, cause there are less viruses left in their reservoires.
Also, IL II therapy is approved for HIV treatment in France and also being offered in Spain...at least here in the canaries.
In Germany they claimed it wouldn't do any good (they had done studies and tests, but with a dosage, it was already clear in advance it would fail) The truth is, they don't want to pay for the relatively high costs. Actually it would cost around 6000 dollar for three consecutive treatments, which would help and restore a lot of immunesystems... its a shame, thats what it is!

Its a bit of a struggle to do such a treatment. After a few days you feel ill, like having the flu. But then shortly after its ok again. Knowing about the benefits makes it all worthwhile.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #31 on:** February 19, 2008, 10:15:32 am »

Quote from: guyinsouthala on February 19, 2008, 05:13:17 am

OK my bad, I forgot about mono therapy causing resistance issues. It was not my intention to offend anyone here. I will say, however, that I feel strongly about adherence to a fault. If you're going to take the junk, take it like you're supposed to.

I know a couple of guys who go off their meds for about 6 months at a time so they get their energy back, then go back on it when their vl goes up. I tell them that's not a good idea but they would rather "feel normal" than the fatigue, headaches, and stomach problems 365 days a year.

Oh darling, no offense was taken. I've just had others question me and not even "get" my response. I think they just don't understand what treatment was like at that time, and why there are so many Long-Term'ers that have resistance issues. I feel the same about adherence issues, so I don't particularly care for HIV newcomers looking at me like some sort of uber-treatment slacker (not that you did of course, darling).

As far as your friends go, I learned not to say anything. One of my best friends has been doing what you described for a good 10 years, and currently he's not taken any meds for the past 3 years at all. He's never developed ANY resistance issues.

While I'm glad that he hasn't, I'd be lying if I said that it didn't kind of fill me with unkind emotions in light of what I've been through. We were diagnosed around the same year too, but our "paths" have been entirely different.

achim-martin · « **Reply #32 on:** February 19, 2008, 11:24:24 am »

Quote from: philly267 on February 19, 2008, 10:15:32 am

One of my best friends has been doing what you described for a good 10 years, and currently he's not taken any meds for the past 3 years at all. He's never developed ANY resistance issues.

...which leaves us with the question about his current results. After 3 years of not taking the meds is he still below detection?

BT65 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 19, 2008, 11:49:14 am »

Quote from: guyinsouthala on February 19, 2008, 05:13:17 am

OK my bad, I forgot about mono therapy causing resistance issues. It was not my intention to offend anyone here.

You didn't offend me, dear. I understand not everyone has been down the same path as some of us have.

BTW, I don't know where in AL you live, but I'm assuming it's close to Birmingham. I lived in Tuscaloosa some years ago.

SouthSam7 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 19, 2008, 10:55:24 pm »

Quote from: Bettytacy on February 19, 2008, 11:49:14 am

BTW, I don't know where in AL you live, but I'm assuming it's close to Birmingham. I lived in Tuscaloosa some years ago.

LOL, Betty! I wish! I live in the most remote, backward-ass part of the state, 200 miles from Birmingham. The good thing it's closer to the beach than Birmingham. Let's just say I live south of Columbus, GA and north of Dothan, AL. Peace.

Roie · « **Reply #35 on:** February 20, 2008, 12:51:37 am »

Quote from: matty.the.damned on February 17, 2008, 05:39:58 pm

When people who are not ready jump in, things can go horribly wrong. For most of us (including the OP of this thread) there is always time to take a deep breath, consider one's options and make a careful, sound decision based on clinical fact, not emotion.
MtD

Matty this is such an important piece of advice.

achim-martin · « **Reply #36 on:** February 20, 2008, 09:42:26 am »

Please guys, read the article in the thread: News for cd4 above 350!

Call me old fashioned, but I can get very emotional over this topic...
Of course one needs to take a deep breath - but there is no doubt, you
WILL need to start treatment eventually anyway. Yet the sooner you do, the better
for your body, quality of life and perspectives - and that is proven.

BT65 · « **Reply #37 on:** February 20, 2008, 09:57:00 am »

Quote from: guyinsouthala on February 19, 2008, 10:55:24 pm

LOL, Betty! I wish! I live in the most remote, backward-ass part of the state, 200 miles from Birmingham. The good thing it's closer to the beach than Birmingham. Let's just say I live south of Columbus, GA and north of Dothan, AL. Peace.

All I know is that when I lived in Al, I had to move quickly back up north. My brother used to own property in Tuscaloosa and Birmingham. I don't know if it's any more progressive than when I was there or not (which was around '90). You poor dear.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #38 on:** February 20, 2008, 12:22:49 pm »

Quote from: achim-martin on February 20, 2008, 09:42:26 am

Call me old fashioned, but I can get very emotional over this topic...

But why? You're not even HIV positive.

Dachshund · « **Reply #39 on:** February 20, 2008, 02:59:52 pm »

Quote from: achim-martin on February 20, 2008, 09:42:26 am

Please guys, read the article in the thread: News for cd4 above 350!

Call me old fashioned, but I can get very emotional over this topic...
Of course one needs to take a deep breath - but there is no doubt, you
WILL need to start treatment eventually anyway. Yet the sooner you do, the better
for your body, quality of life and perspectives - and that is proven.

I remind everyone that NO one should diagnose or recommend when someone should begin treatment, whether or not they believe someone MAY eventually start treatment.

achim-martin · « **Reply #40 on:** February 20, 2008, 03:33:50 pm »

Quote from: philly267 on February 20, 2008, 12:22:49 pm

But why? You're not even HIV positive.

You ask why I get emotional about this subject? Are we so coldhearted in this world to not get touched by the loss of lovedones, the struggling and the emotions involved?
I have been a friend to quite a few people who have gone through hell, just lately a friend died cause he thought he could wait with his treatment and my lifetimepartner and lover is hiv positive.

Have you forgotten how tough life was in the midsth 90s? Where it was obvious to the public? Well, I haven't, and so I am emotional about this.

And as much as guys can recommend to not start too early, with arguments they find apropiate - I can recommend to read the latest large studies and start a treatment as early as managable. We are not here to diagnose, to replace a doctor...but to share knowledge and experiences. Its just not the time to undermine the impact this illness has on each and everyone involved - if positive or not.

Matty the Damned · « **Reply #41 on:** February 20, 2008, 03:36:43 pm »

And Martin now Alive's thread is being hijacked.

Remember him? The guy who started the thread. This thread is about his issues and concerns and is not a vehicle for you to push your particular treatment views.

MtD

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #42 on:** February 20, 2008, 03:40:43 pm »

Quote from: achim-martin on February 20, 2008, 03:33:50 pm

You ask why I get emotional about this subject? Are we so coldhearted in this world to not get touched by the loss of lovedones, the struggling and the emotions involved?
I have been a friend to quite a few people who have gone through hell, just lately a friend died and my lifetimepartner and lover is hive positive.

Have you forgotten how tough life was in the midsth 90s? Where it was obvious to the public? Well, I haven't, and so I am emotional about this.

And as much as guys can recommend to not start too early, with arguments the find apropiate - I can recommend to read the latest large studies and start a treatment as early as managable. We are not here to diagnose, to replace a doctor...but to share knowledge and experiences. Its just not the time to undermine the impact this illness has on each and everyone involved - if positive or not.

Achim-martin, you're talking to someone who is actually HIV positive, has been so for 20 year, has been on HIV meds for 15, has cycled through so many HIV meds in that period that he had to recently resort to injecting fuzeon twice daily to stay alive, etc. etc.

So in short, no I have not forgotten what hell is like, nor have I forgotten how tough life was in the mid/early 90's.

YOU have stated that your "partner" has been on the same combo exact combo since 1996, so he didn't even experience life pre-HAART like others here. Additionally, if he's been on the same combo since beginning treatment and still has a suppressed viral load, then I must make the assumption that he has no HIV med resistance issues.

Why then, may I ask, are you worrying so excessively that you're inventing all of these really weird medical treatments on your own? It just makes no sense, and once again I suggest you seek the help of a therapist.

As far as beginning treatment, why are you coming on here making recommendations for this to others? As a negative person it doesn't concern either you or your partner. He's already on treatment... successfully as well. What you ARE doing, achim-martin, is projecting your own fears and worries unduly on the recently diagnosed that post and view commentary anonymously on this web board, and I find that rather atrocious frankly.

BT65 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 20, 2008, 03:46:09 pm »

Quote from: achim-martin on February 20, 2008, 03:33:50 pm

You ask why I get emotional about this subject? Are we so coldhearted in this world to not get touched by the loss of lovedones, the struggling and the emotions involved?
I have been a friend to quite a few people who have gone through hell, just lately a friend died cause he thought he could wait with his treatment and my lifetimepartner and lover is hiv positive.

Have you forgotten how tough life was in the midsth 90s? Where it was obvious to the public? Well, I haven't, and so I am emotional about this.

And as much as guys can recommend to not start too early, with arguments they find apropiate - I can recommend to read the latest large studies and start a treatment as early as managable. We are not here to diagnose, to replace a doctor...but to share knowledge and experiences. Its just not the time to undermine the impact this illness has on each and everyone involved - if positive or not.

Please don't sprattle off your achey-heart syndrome here, Martin. I have lived positive since 1989, diagnosed full-blown in 1994. I have seen many, many tragedies. The new people who come onto this particular forum do not need to be going on a wild goose chase with your overly-dramatic (and mostly unfounded) viewpoints on starting HAART, or anything else re HIV for that matter.

achim-martin · « **Reply #44 on:** February 20, 2008, 04:05:43 pm »

You call me a highjacker, goose chasing etc.... This is not fair.

Well, if someone can recommend to newbies to not do anything, to wait and see and get some sleep, then I guess its not highjacking if I recommend to start treatment in order to stop the cd4 drops.
My emotions are not "achey-hearted" as you call it. I have just experienced the loss of yet another friend who has died, cause he has not done anything and waited too long with therapy.

Yes, my partner is doing fine. Should wer therefore not share our experiences?
We're not inventing strange or weird therapies. There are books, information on the net and recommendations of doctors that also involve the IL II therapy. And the latest study here in Spain (see the other thread) prove scientivically how important it is to start as early as possible the HAART treatment.
You want me not to be emotional? Well, I am, cause it would be a shame if there has to suffer anyone by not getting the needed treatment.

If I have sounded to harsh on this, my words were too direct - I apologize. Cause I truly don't intend to intimidate anyone.

aliveinla · « **Reply #45 on:** February 20, 2008, 09:26:43 pm »

I might be naive: Maybe one day those wonderful doctors, my roommate being one, a PHD at USC doing HIV research, will invent a cure drug to get rid of HIV, but will only apply to those treatment naive people, not to people already taking HAART. Will that be possible at all? :-)

It seems no scientist is predicting a cure within the foreseeable future... Question for people who lived through the 90's, how did it feel before HAART came out? Was it also gloomy and depressing as right now then suddenly HAART came? Will something to that extent come along out of nowhere nowadays? Anybody heard of Rosetta@home? I joined it as soon as I heard it today.

komnaes · « **Reply #46 on:** February 20, 2008, 09:38:08 pm »

We don't have a crystal ball Alive and I surely hope to see a "cure", though not really expecting it.

I didn't live through the early stage of the epidemic as a pozzie but I had/have friends/relatives who did and if you ask the long-term survivors here most would say the meds we have now are readily as good as anyone could have expected to see within this short period of time. If we think now is "gloomy", pre-HAART it was downright hellishly scary.

And I suppose things just don't come out of nowhere. Any new major breakthroughs are usually supported by years of researches, but then again, who knows. Right now I am just happy to know that I have treatment options, whereas it was none not so long ago.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #47 on:** February 20, 2008, 09:40:11 pm »

Quote from: aliveinla on February 20, 2008, 09:26:43 pm

Question for people who lived through the 90's, how did it feel before HAART came out? Was it also gloomy and depressing as right now then suddenly HAART came? Will something to that extent come along out of nowhere nowadays?

1st question: I assumed I would not live past the year 2000. For some reason I put that in my mind, and even that was being generous considering what my numbers were when diagnosed in 1993.

2nd question: I think we're already seeing things come out that are as important as HAART/introduction of protease inhibitors.

watch this video from the CROI2008 Boston conference:

http://www.poz.com/articles/hiv_isentress_vicriviroc_761_13993.shtml?rss=true

While it seems like this is just good news for treatment experienced patients, everyone will eventually go on these either because they become treatment experienced, or because over time these will become more first-line type therapies. I'm already on two of them, and they are wildly lower in side effect... as in I have none.

BT65 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 20, 2008, 11:10:02 pm »

Quote from: aliveinla on February 20, 2008, 09:26:43 pm

Question for people who lived through the 90's, how did it feel before HAART came out? Was it also gloomy and depressing as right now then suddenly HAART came? Will something to that extent come along out of nowhere nowadays? Anybody heard of Rosetta@home? I joined it as soon as I heard it today.

Being diagnosed in '89, I didn't expect to live past '94 or '95. The beginnings of taking AZT was terrible. They didn't know how to use it and everyone on the first rounds ended up being over-medicated. Which led to problems like anemia etc. I did get anemic and had to have a blood transfusion. It also started my neuropathy, which continues to this day (pretty controlled by Neurontin though). The other meds that came out (d4t, 3tc etc) weren't much better. Things have improved quite a bit.

I don't know if anything will come out as being 'miraculous.' But they seem to be developing new and better meds every day.

Dachshund · « **Reply #49 on:** February 21, 2008, 07:46:47 am »

Back in the day when AZT was the only game in town I took it for two weeks, walked into my doctor's office and told him I would rather be dead. My doc knew exactly what I was talking about and never once questioned my decision. He told me he hoped I survived for a bit because there were drugs in the pipeline that looked promising. I thought, yeah right.

Well there was, and I did, and here I am. That was 1992.

Oh, did I mention I work fulltime?

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