POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: WillyWump on June 26, 2012, 06:26:31 pm
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Interesting read about a Southern Baptist Minister and his son who died of AIDS...
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/25/12406071-aids-in-the-pews-sons-secret-divides-southern-baptist-minister-and-his-church
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Powerful stuff. Thanks for posting Willy! :'(
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But her son wouldn't have sex with other men, she thought. Her son wasn't gay.
Uh... hello. He was a cheerleader and sold fine china at Macy's.
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"Change has come to Red Bank Baptist, too, although its doctrines remain the same."
so although the church still held the doctrine that homosexuals are evil, sinful and going to burn in hell, and although the pastor denounced this man's son just a week after the funeral, now dad and mom have decided to go back?!? To go back and give support to the church that despised their deceased son and is content to denounce someone else's child the same way today?!?
I've always believed that for many gay men our worst enemies are our own parents. Not only do they often denounce and disown us; but they give succor and comfort to others giving them permission to denounce and despise us.
this whole story leaves me saddened - and sickened.
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But her son wouldn't have sex with other men, she thought. Her son wasn't gay.
Uh... hello. He was a cheerleader and sold fine china at Macy's.
She refused to answer the CLUE PHONE! :o
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She refused to answer the CLUE PHONE! :o
;D
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I saw this online earlier today and read it over lunch. Touching.
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Wow. Thanks for sharing this. So many emotions reading this.
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so although the church still held the doctrine that homosexuals are evil, sinful and going to burn in hell, and although the pastor denounced this man's son just a week after the funeral, now dad and mom have decided to go back?!? To go back and give support to the church that despised their deceased son and is content to denounce someone else's child the same way today?!?
The pastor aka Dr Steelman didn't denounce Matt's son Stephen a week after he died - it happened three years after Stephen died and one week after Matt held a funeral service for another young man who died because of aids. Doesn't make it right, but nevertheless, Dr Steelman kept silent about Stephen being gay. He chose to use the pulpit to gay-bash in a more general way after the second funeral because he didn't like Matt's acceptance and embrace of gay christians and he wanted to put Matt "in his place", so to speak.
What I took from him (Matt) deciding to go back is that he hopes to help change attitudes now that there is a new pastor in place, with Dr Steelman having retired.
From the article:
Matt and Dr. Steelman have seen each other around town over the years, at the dentist's office or the grocery store. Neither has waffled publicly on his views, each a stalwart on opposite sides in the culture war. The Southern Baptist church still believes that homosexuality is a sin. So does Dr. Steelman.
And Matt still believes Jesus doesn't need gays to change.
//snip//
"You can't exert any kind of influence if you are outside," he tells his followers at PFLAG. "That is what I am struggling with now."
He's right, effective change usually comes from within. I wish him well and I hope he accomplishes something positive in his church. I also hope he finds peace. He loved his son regardless and began seeing what the rest of us see - that many bible-thumping people pick and choose what alleged sins they care about.
I mean, how many pastors and christians in general wear cheap polyester suits and clothing? That's outlawed in Leviticus too, but they just keep wearing their cheap suits and eating lobster, bacon and pork chops.
He also began to realise another thing that many of us already know - if you go back to earlier translations or even the original language, what has been more recently translated as being anti-gay passages are actually warnings against rape and pedophilia.
It's all made up by MEN anyway, with an eye towards controlling the population. A lot of the dietary laws were made simply because they had no refrigeration in those days and the laws were made to keep people healthy. An old book of myths and guidelines for health and hygiene has no relevant place in today's society - unless you're studying history and myth.
edited to add....
BTW, I've moved this into the Living forum. Off Topic is for topics that have nothing to do with hiv/aids.
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Great summary Ann. Spot on.
Moreso than anything I saw it as more a story of a man's unwavering love for his son and the journey of spiritual transformation his sons death forced him to take.
-w
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Moreso than anything I saw it as more a story of a man's unwavering love for his son and the journey of spiritual transformation his sons death forced him to take.
I totally agree. I hope he manages to transform some hearts and minds at his church, and maybe even other churches as well. I admire his courage.
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The pastor aka Dr Steelman didn't denounce Matt's son Stephen a week after he died - it happened three years after Stephen died and one week after Matt held a funeral service for another young man who died because of aids. Doesn't make it right, but nevertheless, Dr Steelman kept silent about Stephen being gay. He chose to use the pulpit to gay-bash in a more general way after the second funeral because he didn't like Matt's acceptance and embrace of gay christians and he wanted to put Matt "in his place", so to speak.
ah! thank you, I understand now. I was confused by the story at times.
I was possibly confused because of my anger as I read. Living in an area saturated with homophobia and bigotry sometimes blinds you to the fine details of these kinds of stories. I see my take away was very different from others. Perhaps that comes from my own experiences with the fundamental Baptist churches, school and college that I attended in my youth. Needless to say their hypocrisy and hate turned me totally away from religion and into, at most, being an agnostic with no love at all for organized religions.
For me all that shone through in this story was how religion warped the young man into, even near his death, wondering if his "sin" was the reason for his sickness; how religion caused his brother to stay in a church, and continue to support a church, that preached a hate-message against his own brother; and how religion, in the end, sadly brought that mother and father back to that same church that had continued preaching and believing that same hateful doctrine.
I wonder how many other lives where destroyed by that same church throughout those years?
you say this father might be able to change the church from within; but I don't think that's possible. Changing things in a company or at city hall is something one can do from within. Changing church doctrine, "God's laws", is simply not done in most religions, as that would defeat the whole purpose of even having a religion if the very doctrines were changeable. Many people in these church believe God's word is immutable. No single man can change their mis-belief about the Bible and the "sin of homosexuality". Take note that the Southern Baptist Churches (which this story is about) just recently reconfirmed their own belief against homosexuality.
I know many people recently saw the news clip about the NC preacher who advocated that gays should be rounded up, fenced in and left to die. Could you imagine that being your church? Your brother remaining in that church and supporting their mission? Your parents returning to that church years later? That kind of homophobic religious teaching lives a free and open life throughout the Southern states in the Southern Baptist and fundamental Baptist churches and many other denominations.
I'll never understand Log Cabin/Gay Republicans, and I'll never understand homosexuals and their loved ones who continue to attend churches/demoninations that preach/believe that homosexuality is a sin. I believe that by attending those churches, you support those churches and you aid in the destruction they cause in families and the lives of gay people.
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Moreso than anything I saw it as more a story of a man's unwavering love for his son and the journey of spiritual transformation his sons death forced him to take.
-w
I agree with Will, this is a journey that only the father can make and I relate to it, because it's the same journey that my father took, however he came to a different place and not in a good way. I also believe that the age of the father has a lot to do with his journey, because religion seems to have played a more major role in the past generation. As much as I loath religion, I can understand the cognitive dissonance that comes from believing given tenants, only to discover there was far more to the story.
I imagine it's the same journey that many gay and lesbians take, when raised with religion that preaches against homosexuality and then discovering that not everyone thinks this way. My parents believed that being gay was a sin and a choice. Once I got teh AIDS, my mom came around, but my father never did. When my mother died, my partner at the time, gave her eulogy. When my father announced his marriage to my mom's best friend, we were thrilled they could find love again at 70+. So imagine my disappointment, when my partner was not invited to their reception, because it was a "family affair." Then imagine my unbridled rage, when I attended said reception, alone, only to be introduced to one of the brides granddaughters who brought her date from high school.
It seems the bride was "uncomfortable" with my partner being there, after all, what would the family think? I left the reception and my father and I never spoke again.
From my own experience, I can empathize with this fathers journey.
I choose not to discuss, any religion that preaches there is anything wrong with gays, just the way we are. Let them have their hate and leave it to their god to sort it all out.
Joe
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I totally agree. I hope he manages to transform some hearts and minds at his church, and maybe even other churches as well. I admire his courage.
Co-sign.
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I knew a woman who was told she had to find another church (also a Baptist) when she went to her pastor for support after finding out her son was gay and had AIDS.
The pastor told her she would not be comfortable in his flock. He was probably right.
I think this article was well done, and examined some issues that we think are behind us, but still haunt us.
HUGS,
Mark
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Thanks for the post. I read this earlier and couldn't comment as I didn't comprehend the underlying message. I guess our own experiences play into that.
Wolfie