French elections, your thoughts?

[milker]

So the right won.

I think Segolene Royale (the left) should take speech lessons, because I listened to her "defeat speech" today and I think she speaks like a farmer (I like farmers, but they shouldn't try to be presidents).

The winner's speech was a bit strange, he looked like he was going to cry at the beginning. Few sentences were of interest:

"i will rehabilitate the work, the authority, the morals, the respect, the merit. I will put back the honor, the nation, and the national identity, i will give back to the French the french pride" sounds like fun.
"To the Americans: we are your friends, but friends should be allowed to think differently" whatever that means

I'm glad that the nazi right finally lost and only made 11%, compared to scary 15-20% on previous elections.

Since we have so many people from different worldwide locations, I'm wondering what you think of this? Is it important to you? You don't care? Don't be afraid to say your feelings about the French

Milker (who couldn't vote due to yet another embassy fuck up)

[Matty the Damned]

Actually the French Presidential election has been all over the Australian media. Why, I don't know. I suspect the French have elected the president they deserve.

MtD

[milker]

Actually the French Presidential election has been all over the Australian media. Why, I don't know. I suspect the French have elected the president they deserve.

MtD

Well the new president doesn't like expats, he thinks they're betraying the country. I'm eligible for being an American citizen in June, and I'm seriously considering it, as I believe that he's the one betraying me.

Milker.

[Matty the Damned]

Which is odd. Australia has a huge French ex-pat community. All over the place, heads on 'em like rats. They voted at French embassies across the nation in record numbers and they overwhelmingly supported M. Sarkozy.

MtD

[milker]

Which is odd. Australia has a huge French ex-pat community. All over the place, heads on 'em like rats. They voted at French embassies across the nation in record numbers and they overwhelmingly supported M. Sarkozy.

MtD

O RLY ?

I'll have to check the expat votes, I haven't checked yet, it's interesting you say that, I thought expats were leftists, but maybe it's a timezone thing

Milker.

[allopathicholistic]

"To the Americans: we are your friends, but friends should be allowed to think differently" whatever that means

Friends should be allowed to think differently

Um, totally

That's how we grow

I love the French. I had a super cool cute temporary roommate from Paris in 2001. He was here to get his master's degree in business. We would go out to clubs and kiss cute boys and laugh laugh laugh. If all French people are like him (yeah, right, I'm not that naive) then all French people are super cool and super fun and super smart

[milker]

We would go out to clubs and kiss cute boys and laugh laugh laugh. If all French people are like him (yeah, right, I'm not that naive) then all French people are super cool and super fun and super smart

Well we learn French kiss at school. It's a major, and you can't skip the class

Milker.

[BT65]

"To the Americans: we are your friends, but friends should be allowed to think differently" whatever that means

What he was talking about was the war in Iraq.  The French don't support it.  Smart move on their part! (They were just talking about this on Bill Mahr tonight).

[northernguy]

Well the new president doesn't like expats, he thinks they're betraying the country. I'm eligible for being an American citizen in June, and I'm seriously considering it, as I believe that he's the one betraying me.

Milker.

The leadership debate received the 2nd highest TV rating in France ever (after  the World Cup).  Yet in the United States (self-proclaimed guardian of democracy for the world and renowned France-slagger) only 50% bother to vote

[BT65]

Tadams:  I am just posting this so everyone will know....you have been reported to the moderators!  Nice try...

[northernguy]

...
The French have no stomach for doing what needs done, they'd probably surrender their country to Osama Bin Laden in a heartbeat.

Nice to see you got the gist of my post   What do you think the highest rating that a presidential debate ever got in th USA was.  At least the French bother to keep informed about the issues.

[BT65]

Please don't "feed the trolls!"

[Miss Philicia]

I had dinner in February with some dear friends visiting from France, who are generally somewhat liberal and they couldn't stand Sego, so they seemed resigned to vote for Sarko and hold their noses.  I think that's what many did.  Royal ran a really, really dreadful campaign.  Advocating people keep little French flags in their kitchen cupboards... wtf???

I may go to France in the fall...

[northernguy]

Mme Royale stood for more of the same policies that have led to France's economic stagnation.  Plus her judgement was called into question by a series of diplomatic blunders, including feeding our separatists trolls by calling for sovereignty and liberty for Quebec. 

At the end of the day the French voted for change, hopefully the same will happen south of the 49th in 2008!

[ACinKC]

Arent the French elections just in place to pick the guy/gal that waves the white flag when war breaks out?  I thought it was just a symbolic type position.

[belgium]

"Arent the French elections just in place to pick the guy/gal that waves the white flag when war breaks out?  I thought it was just a symbolic type position."

hmm, if you want to portray the french as a bunch of cowards then you obviously don't know s***t about history, opportunists they may be, cowards the're not

as for their stance on the war in Iraq, it weren't just the french who tried to make the US see the stupidity of it, Belgium, Germany and others were amongst them.
the reason why those country were and still are opposed to that silly war is simple, experience, each of these country's have a long history in dealing with arab nations, we know how insatble they can be, and wat can happen if you try to muddle in there,
every single prediction about the whole mess in iraq they made, has come true (sadly enough)
still it were nice elections, i watched the whole election night on french tv, and yes i agree, segolene should have done better

[ACinKC]

I am simply playing on the standard French stereotype.  I do realize the history but it isnt as funny as what I put.

Actually, arent these goats french?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg

[thunter34]

The other day, I was ordering some fast food when I noticed on the menu that they offered onion rings or "Freedom Fries".  I had to ask a friend of mine again...."What the hell is a Freedom Fry?"  I knew I had heard the term, but had forgotten exactly what it was for.  Was this something like "Home Fries" or "Curly Q"?

No.

I was reminded that it was the term coined when Americans decided to rebel against the term "French Fry" in protest against the French over opposition to Iraq.  It occured to me that we never got around to adopting the "Freedom Kiss" and the like.  The whole thing felt impossibly silly to me all of the sudden.  Not the war, the line drawn at the sliced and fried potato.

I just went with a milkshake.

[Miss Philicia]

but it isnt as funny as what I put.

It wasn't as amusing as you seem to assume.

[ACinKC]

It wasn't as amusing as you seem to assume.

Made me chuckle.

[Dachshund]

I am simply playing on the standard French stereotype.  I do realize the history but it isnt as funny as what I put.

Actually, arent these goats french?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg

Sorry to burst your bubble there, Jerry Lewis, but yours wasn't funny either.

[Miss Philicia]

Oh, thunter.  You'd just LOVE Gino's cheese steaks near where I live.  It's one of the legendary original South Philly steak shacks and not only do they still have Freedom Fries listed, but they also have signs stipulating that they only accept orders in English.

http://www.genosteaks.com/

(make sure you watch the video!!!)

Annoying as this is it's still where I go when I want a cheese steak as they're less greasy than Pat's across the street.  But Pat's is kind of fiercer looking:

http://www.patskingofsteaks.com/history.htm

[thunter34]

I'm having Freedom Vanilla creamer in my coffee this morning, btw.

[Dachshund]

I'm having Freedom Vanilla creamer in my coffee this morning, btw.

How 'bout a freedom tickler up your butt?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[ACinKC]

How 'bout a freedom tickler up your butt?

Thats not funny.






Ok maybe a smidge.   

[thunter34]

How 'bout a freedom tickler up your butt?

That's probaby not what some of the folks in the restaraunt would have wanted to shove up my butt.  I noticed a few sideways looks when I asked aloud "What the hell if a Freedom Fry?"

In retrospect, I'm sure a good number of them were thinking, "Filthy bleeding heart liberal pig!  Did you learn NOTHING from 9/11?!"

EDIT:  OMG- I just now saw the image that went with that!  THAT was FUNNY !!

[jack]

Its never humorous when the joke is about libs,socialists,Euros, or Dems, only republicans.  Libs and socialists have no sense of humor. How boring their lives must be.
French are not cowards, and they love a good fight(see vietnam and n.africa) but their politicians favored appeasement over preparation in WW1 and WW2, but so did England and US. Only Churchill was sounding the alarm.
 Calling French cowards would be the same as calling US cowards after 911 because of our appeasement policies of the 80s and 90s.

[Dachshund]

Its never humorous when the joke is about libs,socialists,Euros, or Dems, only republicans.  Libs and socialists have no sense of humor. How boring their lives must be.
French are not cowards, and they love a good fight(see vietnam and n.africa) but their politicians favored appeasement over preparation in WW1 and WW2, but so did England and US. Only Churchill was sounding the alarm.
 Calling French cowards would be the same as calling US cowards after 911 because of our appeasement policies of the 80s and 90s.

Now you get it, it is FUNNY because Republicans ARE a joke as evidenced by their absurd views...have another piece of freedom toast to go with your kool-aid...it was the Bush administration calling the French cowards and trying to eliminate the word "french" from the limited American vocabulary. You're right the French aren't cowards but repubes sure are...there must be a zillion military deferments in this administration alone...now that's funny.

[jack]

like I said, its only funny if its about republicans. Dachs, do you ever get tired of hating everyone who doesnt agree with you? Sure must take a lot of energy. You really need to get a life.

[Dachshund]

like I said, its only funny if its about republicans. Dachs, do you ever get tired of hating everyone who doesnt agree with you? Sure must take a lot of energy. You really need to get a life.

Je? Je ne me fatigue jamais de demyystifier vos arguments idiots...que c'est ma vie. Les republicains sont droles.

 

[Miss Philicia]

Now you get it, it is FUNNY because Republicans ARE a joke as evidenced by their absurd views...have another piece of freedom toast to go with your kool-aid...it was the Bush administration calling the French cowards and trying to eliminate the word "french" from the limited American vocabulary. You're right the French aren't cowards but repubes sure are...there must be a zillion military deferments in this administration alone...now that's funny.

It is part of his pathology of martyrdom. He has convinced himself that being abused here is in someway a noble sacrifice to the greater good of the repiglican god. I think he feels this is his portal into repiglican salvation. He envisions himself, pathetically so, as part of the Greater Good of the repiglican junta.

[jack]

Dachs, remember, it takes as much effort to smile as it does to frown and to love as to hate. Hatred really doesnt become you.

[jack]

hey, that is really funny. about as funny as hiv. With so much hatred it hard to have a sense of humor.
What a great day!!!!

[Dachshund]

Dachs, remember, it takes as much effort to smile as it does to frown and to love as to hate. Hatred really doesnt become you.

Wow Jake that sure is the conservative kettle calling the liberal pot taupe. Maybe it's an effort for you to smile or love but not me...I'm full of the holy ghost sister... and I can show you the way. You need to up your meditation time.

[Miss Philicia]

It's always so funny to see a person who belongs to the Party of Hate lecturing others about hatred... certainly to a RNC targeted population of homosexuals on an internet web board.

It's kind of sad, Jack, that you can't understand at all why gay people would detest the Republican Party.

[belgium]

i can tell you at this moment republicans aren't very popular in europe, telling people here you're american will get you weary looks, telling them you're republican will end you sitting very lonesome at the bar.

another thing i just can't get, it's funny how the americans have given a meaning to the word "liberal" wich is exact the opposite of what it means over here in europe.
here in belgium for example we have a prime minister who is a liberal from the liberal party, he stands for, less state, less taxes, more entrepeneurship, less social programs. sounds a lot like Bush, luckly he also is pro-gay (he  passed a law allowing gay-marriage) and anti-war

dashund peut-etre les republicains sont droles, mallerheusment il sont aussi egalment dangereux

[Bucko]

Je? Je ne me fatigue jamais de demyystifier vos arguments idiots...que c'est ma vie. Les republicains sont droles.

 

Brava, AD...Brava!

Brent
(Qui ne savais jamais qu'elle parle francais)

[thunter34]

As an American, I only accept posts in English.   

[Dachshund]

Brava, AD...Brava!

Brent
(Qui ne savais jamais qu'elle parle francais)

Not a word darling, but Aunty D is smart enough to know how to use online translation.

[milker]

like I said, its only funny if its about republicans. Dachs, do you ever get tired of hating everyone who doesnt agree with you? Sure must take a lot of energy. You really need to get a life.

I found AC's picture funny, i'm french and more on the left side. There are people that take it too personally on both sides. The freedom fries made the french laugh a lot, but 9/11 did not. I don't think there is one french citizen that finds 9/11 laughable.

Milker.

[Bucko]

I found AC's picture funny, i'm french and more on the left side. There are people that take it too personally on both sides. The freedom fries made the french laugh a lot, but 9/11 did not. I don't think there is one french citizen that finds 9/11 laughable.

Milker.

As I remember the days following 9/11, there was this incredible feeling of solidarity against the terrorists. But this quickly dissapated into nationalism and a black-and-white attitude of being either for us or against us.

When the Bush administration laid out its fraudulent case in favor of invading Iraq, Europe didn't buy it, but most especially France didn't buy it. As their intelligence as regards Arab countries is far superior to ours, they knew that it was a red herring. This wasn't due to rife anti-Americanism as much as a friend calling bullshit on another. My simpleton ex felt betrayed by France's UN votes and stopped drinking Pouilly Fuisse (like that DID anything except lower his taste in wine).

At the time I didn't know what to believe (but never stopped drinking Cotes-du-Rhone), but understood that France's opposition to American militarism wasn't evil and was probably more a reflection of their greater understanding of the situation. Now that we're five years into a quagmire that's led to a civil war in Iraq that we've helped start, who looks better?

Brent
(Who has had many French friends)

Oh! and to at least hit the opening topic:
Chirac was considered right of center but governed from the middle. I see no reason why the newly-elected president will not do the same.

[Miss Philicia]

I think it's fair to see Sarkozy as being further to the right than Chirac, but his Gaulist party will need to solidify their seats in the National Assembly elections which are next month to have any sort of effective domestic reformist agenda.

[Bucko]

It's the prime minister appointed by the figurehead president who actually gets his hands dirty with the legislature (and popular opinion). My experience with French politics is that they run as naturally to the left as Americans to the right. And I find it difficult to fathom any support for gutting the socialism of Mitterand, economic consequences be damned. Who wouldn't rather have four week's vacation and universal health care?

Brent
(Who wonders what life would have been like had he stayed in Paris after 1992)

[Miss Philicia]

Oh, I agree that someone to the right in France is still about as left as Ted Kennedy.  I wasn't implying that there will be a Thatcherite Revolution in France.  I still think Sarkozy will govern further to the right, if ever so slightly, than Chirac.

I'm somewhat familiar with France, having travelled there regularly since 1980 and possessing a minor degree in the language.  Thought I will admit I'm more familiar with Lyon and points south rather than Paris.  I'll take a month in Provence over the Champs-Elysee anytime.

[Bucko]

I'll agree with the Champs-Elysee. I always felt "my Paris" was in the 9th north of the boulevards, the 4th in the Marais/Republique/Bastille, the 11th Bastille/Nation and the 20th where I did my shopping and laundry. There was this bakery on the Rue d'Avron that sold a confection called "chocobig" that was an enormous pain au chocolat and was thoroughly addicting (like the sliced "pudding").

I've never in my life been to a place more civilized than the walk down from the Place de Clichy to la Trinite unless it's the Passieg de Gracia in Barcelona (and even then).

I had a friend who's mother owned a house in Collioure right near the Spanish border. It was heaven for the three weeks I spent there:

http://www.collioure.com/

Brent
(Who wants to go back someday)

[jack]

there were many reason the French did not want to support us or appear to support us in our war in Iraq.
1. France lives in fear of its moslem population
2. Iraq was a large trading partner with Iraq, and of course one of the largest violators of the UN food or oil program.
3. OIL. All Euros,Russians and Asians want the oil and if we are there,well you figure it out.
4. Chirac thought by opposing US he could make France into Euros leader and regain some of its past stature.
 
For the millionth time, just about every Dem,including Clinton and Kerry said in the late 90s that Iraq had WMDs. The UN said it. All of Europe said it. It was convenient way to enter the war. Bush and his gang thought there was no way they could lose that one, every Dem had made speeches about Iraq WMD and the need to replace Saddam. What they didnt count on was the "poor memory" of US media. WMD wasnt the only reason Bush gave for going into Iraq, it was one of several. We went in to protect our interests. OIL. Without oil or if a lunatic like the little midget in Iran gets his mitts on it, the world economy shuts down. We have to be there to keep pressure on the dictators in Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Bush has made many mistakes. He waited to long to attack Iraq because of moderates and appeasers in US,and he wasted valuable time trying to convince the UN and Euros of his plan.
Bush,like Clinton before him,should have fired all political appointees from past administration,especially the two morons running the fbi and cia.
He has tried to long for a political end to this war. Kill the fucking enemy and come home.

[RapidRod]

The only reason the French, Germany and Russia didn't want to get involved was that they would loose billions of dollars in contracts. That is the only reason they didn't get involved. "MONEY"

[Miss Philicia]

Mmmm.. Collioure looks lovely.  I have enough mileage for 2 jaunts to Europe at the moment and I always have a free place to stay in Lyon, as dear friends I've known now for 25 years are there.  I had intended to go this current Spring but I never got around to booking my seat, so I guess I'll aim for Autumn.  However, this trip I plan on exploring the wilds of Le Massif Central area.

And of course if you like Cotes du Rhone Lyon is a delightful destination... plus the city is not touristy at all.  Easy drive to the Alps too.

[milker]

I had a friend who's mother owned a house in Collioure right near the Spanish border. It was heaven for the three weeks I spent there:

http://www.collioure.com/

Brent
(Who wants to go back someday)

Was it my aunt?

Did you go to the naked beaches near Port Bou?

Milker (who's hijacking his own thread)

[Bucko]

Was it my aunt?

Did you go to the naked beaches near Port Bou?

Milker (who's hijacking his own thread)

I'm not sure if it was your aunt or not, but my friend's name was Sylvia. We did not make it to the nude beach in Port Bou, alas. Sylvia was a sweet thing but no one I'd want to see nude 

And Philly- is this an invite? Can we sneak Joseph in our luggage?

Brent
(Who speaks French with no discernable French accent)

[ACinKC]

there were many reason the French did not want to support us or appear to support us in our war in Iraq.
1. France lives in fear of its moslem population
2. Iraq was a large trading partner with Iraq, and of course one of the largest violators of the UN food or oil program.
3. OIL. All Euros,Russians and Asians want the oil and if we are there,well you figure it out.
4. Chirac thought by opposing US he could make France into Euros leader and regain some of its past stature.
 
For the millionth time, just about every Dem,including Clinton and Kerry said in the late 90s that Iraq had WMDs. The UN said it. All of Europe said it. It was convenient way to enter the war. Bush and his gang thought there was no way they could lose that one, every Dem had made speeches about Iraq WMD and the need to replace Saddam. What they didnt count on was the "poor memory" of US media. WMD wasnt the only reason Bush gave for going into Iraq, it was one of several. We went in to protect our interests. OIL. Without oil or if a lunatic like the little midget in Iran gets his mitts on it, the world economy shuts down. We have to be there to keep pressure on the dictators in Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Bush has made many mistakes. He waited to long to attack Iraq because of moderates and appeasers in US,and he wasted valuable time trying to convince the UN and Euros of his plan.
Bush,like Clinton before him,should have fired all political appointees from past administration,especially the two morons running the fbi and cia.
He has tried to long for a political end to this war. Kill the fucking enemy and come home.

The difference between the Democrats and Republicans is the Democrats DID NOT go to war over their "assertions" of WMD.  They would only have gone if it was a clear and present danger to the US.  Which, thanks to Bush and his cronies, Iraq now IS.  They would have done their homework and not gone off to war cause that mean ol man tried to kill their Dad.

Bush has the worst approval rating of any US President in History save for Truman and Nixon.  And for good reason.  He's got his very own Vietnam, you know, the war he TOTALLY dodged.  

Unfortunately I see only one end to this War on Terror, and its going to be MASSIVE by the time we are done.  It's going to take almost total annihilation of the enemy, like all wars do.  Surgical strikes and limited wars will not win this globally.  You have to wipe them out unfortunately or they keep coming back.  Now I am not talking wiping out ALL the muslims.  There was a quote on the Daily Show the other day that summed it up.

"I am a man who LOVES the German people, I don't want the entire German population to be wiped off the face of the Earth, but I sure would like it to happen to the Nazis.  I feel the same way about radical Islamics and terrorists.  I love the Arab people, and I want this cancer removed from them as much as the next man and as much as any true muslim."  I'm paraphrasing.

 But we will have to wipe out entire cities by the end of this thing and a majority population of several countries for them to get the message that the actions of a few will not be tolerated by the masses.

Just my ramblings.

[Dachshund]

there were many reason the French did not want to support us or appear to support us in our war in Iraq.
1. France lives in fear of its moslem population
2. Iraq was a large trading partner with Iraq, and of course one of the largest violators of the UN food or oil program.
3. OIL. All Euros,Russians and Asians want the oil and if we are there,well you figure it out.
4. Chirac thought by opposing US he could make France into Euros leader and regain some of its past stature.
 
For the millionth time, just about every Dem,including Clinton and Kerry said in the late 90s that Iraq had WMDs. The UN said it. All of Europe said it. It was convenient way to enter the war. Bush and his gang thought there was no way they could lose that one, every Dem had made speeches about Iraq WMD and the need to replace Saddam. What they didnt count on was the "poor memory" of US media. WMD wasnt the only reason Bush gave for going into Iraq, it was one of several. We went in to protect our interests. OIL. Without oil or if a lunatic like the little midget in Iran gets his mitts on it, the world economy shuts down. We have to be there to keep pressure on the dictators in Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Bush has made many mistakes. He waited to long to attack Iraq because of moderates and appeasers in US,and he wasted valuable time trying to convince the UN and Euros of his plan.
Bush,like Clinton before him,should have fired all political appointees from past administration,especially the two morons running the fbi and cia.
He has tried to long for a political end to this war. Kill the fucking enemy and come home.

Yep, we're the haters...another dose of history Jake style. Check your facts ol' boy, not every "dem" voted for your stupid war. You're not busy, why haven't you joined the war on terrorism? 

[Miss Philicia]

And Philly- is this an invite? Can we sneak Joseph in our luggage?

I was implying that you'd obviously shacked up with the wrong bottom on the board my dear.

I also have an eternal invite for Stockholm which I may use the other mileage for.  I was going to go see my ex in London but after last week I'm not sure that's possible any longer.

Did I mention the leather bars in Stockholm?  O.M.G

[northernguy]

there were many reason the French did not want to support us or appear to support us in our war in Iraq...

The biggest reason was the intelligence was faulty and they knew it.  With the exception of the UK, the US coalition of the willing was a bunch of 2nd tier countries, hoping to curry some sort of favour with the USA.  It should have been clear to the USA that when Canada and Mexico, the 2 countries with closest economic ties to the USA, didn't support Bush's adventurism that something stank.  (If the 2 countries with the most to lose from a backlash  don't back you something is wrong).

I see French voter turnout was 85%.  Many in the USA don't seem to understand why the rest of us get tired of hearing lectures on democracy from a country where 1 in 2 people don't bother to vote. 

[megasept]

Sorry to burst your bubble there, Jerry Lewis, but yours wasn't funny either.

   

Well...Hate to burst both your Bubbles, but wasn't it the French who put all those big medals around Jerry Lewis' neck? Neither post was funny or all that clever; smart enough to stay out of Iraq, but dumb enough to murder when blowing up a Greenpeace ship a couple decades back. Live and learn? We all need to. Nationality amounts to a hill of beans, in my book. And I do fly my flag on a couple holidays.

The French Socialist candidate lost after running a US-style Dukakis type campaign; CONTENTLESS! Watch Hillary try the same "love your momma" thing in the Democratic primaries, and she is certainly no dummy. Will the right-center parties do a better job in France? They probably have their own Karl Rove types. C'est la vie!

[libvet]

Bush has made many mistakes. He waited to long to attack Iraq because of moderates and appeasers in US,and he wasted valuable time trying to convince the UN and Euros of his plan.

Um, hello?  Earth to Jack!

Is this thing on? 

As you may not have noticed since Fox News isn't exactly the coin of the realm, IRAQ DIDN'T HAVE WMD.  IRAQ barely had an army.  Iraq had no Air Force. Iraq had no Navy. Iraq had no long range weapons.  Iraq had no ties to al Qaida.  Iraq was secular state.  Iraq was contained and under sanctions for well over a decade.

Exactly what the hell are our men and women dying for over there?

Knowing the facts, how can you possibly say we "waited too long"?  Waited too long for what?  His non-existent WMD to grow more potent?

It doesn't matter what any democrat or republican THOUGHT, they were tragically and OBVIOUSLY wrong and that is a fact.  Cope.

If you want to go die for the Iraq people, I'm sure Haliburton is hiring.

[jack]

one reason the FRench turnout was so high compared to US is that the elections were on the weekend.

Why did waiting a year to go into Iraq hurt the US? It allowed Iraq and Saddam to develop a great rope-a-dope defense. As our troops made one of the most amazing fast attacks in the history of warfare, the Iraqi army just evaporated to fight another day. We spent a year trying to convince Europe and UN to join us, knowing all the time they wouldnt,but we had to because of idiotic media,who is convinced war should only be a reaction. Everyone with a brain knows why Europe and most UN members were not with us, MONEY!. They do business with Iraq and other mid east countries and did not want to mess them. Would the US support any country wanting to invade Saudi Arabia? Fuck no, they are our "friendly dictator" in the middle east and valuable trading partner. We buy their oil and they buy our bonds and stocks. Bush went this route to appease media,colin powell, and other moderates,wasting a entire year and telegraphing our every move to the enemy.

Yes, it appears the intel was wrong. But everyone was operating with the same intel for 15 years. WMD was a legitimate reason to go to war. Back then there was great fear of a suitcase nuke entering the US from Iraq via Russia black market through Al Quaeda. While Iraq had no direct involvement in 911 that we know of and no one in this administration has ever said they did, Al Quaeda was active in Iraq for years prior to 911 with the knowledge of SAddam. I think the real reason we went into Iraq was one that couldnt be sold to the public or media,protection of the worlds oil supply from Russia,Iran, and Al Quaeda and to pressure the Saudis,by our presence on their border,to crack down on their homegrown terror groups. To date this has been a success.

Knock on wood, we also have not had a terrorist attack on US soil since 911.

I hate this war as much as the next person. I am sick everytime I hear one of ours has been killed or crippled for life. Bush has done a horrible job of selling this war. You cant win a war if a majority of people at home are against it and the media is a bigger enemy than the terrorists. You have to have them on your side and that is Bushs fault. The President has to be able to sell his idea to the media and people. He also f+cked up selling reform of SS which was a crying shame. But he did touch the third rail. How do you sell free markets to socialists? You have be a bull shitter like REagan or Clinton.
I hate using our soldiers for terrorist bomb targets. Do we ever kill any of them? The media never mentions it.

[blondbeauty]

I think the triumph of Sarkozy proves how the left understands democracy and freedom. Loosing the elections seems to give them the right to destroy the center of Paris, burn hundreds of cars, phone cabins, etc. That is the way the left accepts the results of a democratic election. THe left only accepts democracy and feedom when they are the winners.
I am glad Sarkozy won and I knew he would because the Spanish president supported Segolene (the left) and everything he touches becomes a shit.

[libvet]

I think the triumph of Sarkozy proves how the left understands democracy and freedom. Loosing the elections seems to give them the right to destroy the center of Paris, burn hundreds of cars, phone cabins, etc. That is the way the left accepts the results of a democratic election. THe left only accepts democracy and feedom when they are the winners.
I am glad Sarkozy won and I knew he would because the Spanish president supported Segolene (the left) and everything he touches becomes a shit.

What a crock of shit.

All people on the left are brushed with a broad brush because how some far leftists in France behave?

If all the people on the left in France were as you describe them, there would have been a civil war considering 47% voted for the other candidate.

I really wish people would think before they post idiocy.

[carousel]

"As you may not have noticed since Fox News isn't exactly the coin of the realm, IRAQ DIDN'T HAVE WMD.  IRAQ barely had an army.  Iraq had no Air Force. Iraq had no Navy. Iraq had no long range weapons.  Iraq had no ties to al Qaida.  Iraq was secular state.  Iraq was contained and under sanctions for well over a decade."

Facts, facts, facts.

This wasn't about the truth.  Bush needed to go after somebody.  They chose Iraq, because they thought it would be an easy win.  They wanted to be seen strong on terroism, but they had no way of going for the perpetrators of 911.  

It seems that are many who wish they had taken the French line of not supporting the war.  The situation has turned and has turned and bit Bush and Blair on their arses.

"I think the triumph of Sarkozy proves how the left understands democracy and freedom. Loosing the elections seems to give them the right to destroy the center of Paris, burn hundreds of cars, phone cabins, etc. That is the way the left accepts the results of a democratic election. THe left only accepts democracy and feedom when they are the winners."

Maybe they were angry at Sarkozy spouting about immigration issues.  In my mind, riots seem a measured response to his words of hate.

"one reason the FRench turnout was so high compared to US is that the elections were on the weekend."

Whatever way you look at it, the turnout was amazing.  Perhaps other countries could learn from it.  We might then get a situation where people engage with politics and really express their opinions.

[libvet]

one reason the FRench turnout was so high compared to US is that the elections were on the weekend.

Why did waiting a year to go into Iraq hurt the US? It allowed Iraq and Saddam to develop a great rope-a-dope defense. As our troops made one of the most amazing fast attacks in the history of warfare, the Iraqi army just evaporated to fight another day. We spent a year trying to convince Europe and UN to join us, knowing all the time they wouldnt,but we had to because of idiotic media,who is convinced war should only be a reaction. Everyone with a brain knows why Europe and most UN members were not with us, MONEY!. They do business with Iraq and other mid east countries and did not want to mess them. Would the US support any country wanting to invade Saudi Arabia? Fuck no, they are our "friendly dictator" in the middle east and valuable trading partner. We buy their oil and they buy our bonds and stocks. Bush went this route to appease media,colin powell, and other moderates,wasting a entire year and telegraphing our every move to the enemy.

Yes, it appears the intel was wrong. But everyone was operating with the same intel for 15 years. WMD was a legitimate reason to go to war. Back then there was great fear of a suitcase nuke entering the US from Iraq via Russia black market through Al Quaeda. While Iraq had no direct involvement in 911 that we know of and no one in this administration has ever said they did, Al Quaeda was active in Iraq for years prior to 911 with the knowledge of SAddam. I think the real reason we went into Iraq was one that couldnt be sold to the public or media,protection of the worlds oil supply from Russia,Iran, and Al Quaeda and to pressure the Saudis,by our presence on their border,to crack down on their homegrown terror groups. To date this has been a success.

Knock on wood, we also have not had a terrorist attack on US soil since 911.

I hate this war as much as the next person. I am sick everytime I hear one of ours has been killed or crippled for life. Bush has done a horrible job of selling this war. You cant win a war if a majority of people at home are against it and the media is a bigger enemy than the terrorists. You have to have them on your side and that is Bushs fault. The President has to be able to sell his idea to the media and people. He also f+cked up selling reform of SS which was a crying shame. But he did touch the third rail. How do you sell free markets to socialists? You have be a bull shitter like REagan or Clinton.
I hate using our soldiers for terrorist bomb targets. Do we ever kill any of them? The media never mentions it.

Sweetheart, if a war is really justified, you don't have to sell it, the reasons are self-evident.  This one wasn't.

And yes, there was plenty of evidence that our intel was less than accurate.  The fact that Colin Powell had to plagiarize a school term paper from 9 years earlier is evidence of that alone.  And of course the fact that inspectors were on the ground being allowed to go anywhere they wanted and still there were no WMD to be found was a big clue.

And the media never reporting on people we capture?  Bullshit.  We must have captured the number 2 guy in Iraq like 100 times and at least once a week there was a story about some sweep rounding up this or that group in this or that area of Iraq.

As to Saddam's army (such as it was), the US is the one that disbanded it and left them all to their own devices, unemployed and with a lot of anger.

As to the talking point about there not being a terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11, (never mind the Anthrax mailings), the same thing can be said for the period between February 1993 and September 2001.  Over 8 years with no terrorist attack on US soil.   

Perhaps if Bush had paid more attention to national security in his first 9 months considering he ignored the recommendations of the Hart-Rudman commission and several of his own PDB's instead of spending his time worrying about stem cells, tax cuts for the rich, and how to transfer our tax dollars to churches that don't pay taxes, (not to mention spending time at his "ranch" vacationing),  those attacks on 9/11 might have been prevented. 

Either way, we did the right thing going into Afghanistan and the French, Germans, Canadians and many others who didn't think getting involved in Iraq was a good idea joined us, and we left Afghanistan before the job was even close to being completed because Bush (Cheney) was so hot to invade Iraq for its imaginary crimes against the US.

There is no way you can spin Iraq well, we shouldn't have invaded.  It wasn't a threat.  Most of the world knew there was no real threat and if Iraq had made one move to expand it's borders the entire world would have descended on it like a plague of locusts.  It was a waste and tragically, it wasn't even remotely necessary.

[ACinKC]

Another Milker thread heading toward the century mark.  You sir, are amazing.

[blondbeauty]

In Spain elections are always on weekends so everybody can participate. It is not my case as I only have one weekend a month off. For that you always can vote through mail. I will vote for the right as always. 

[Miss Philicia]

I find ANYONE who actually still rationalizes the reasons for going into Iraq intellectually deficient.

Jack has clearly been both Hannitized and Limbaughtomized.  There's nothing like Goebbels in the 21st century.

[northernguy]

one reason the FRench turnout was so high compared to US is that the elections were on the weekend...

That's an incredibly lame excuse. 

[Dachshund]

consider the source mon ami

[milker]

lol @ AC

The French elections always happen on week-ends, and have seen a 60%-75% turn out in the previous years. This one was 85+%, which was very high. Overall, the turn out has always been higher than the US, I doubt it's week-end related, but who knows.

Yesterday's "riots" have nothing to do with what happened a couple of years ago. That was about 400 people in Paris, most likely non-voters, extreme left, who cannot understand anything else than violence and burning cars to express their opinion.

I haven't talked to my family and friends yet, so I am not sure of the overall climate. Reading the news online it seems that the left is swallowing its defeat but recognizes that the overall campain from Royale was a failure.

What will be interesting to see is how the 3rd generation north african immigrants will feel about this victory. They were the ones that Sarkozy called thud scum (Milker's attempt to translate "racaille") that should be cleaned with a Karcher (high pressure water system).

Overall I hope that people who do not agree with Sarkozy's general policies (I'm one of them) will step back, relax, and give him a chance. Rioting is not a form of democracy.
 
Milker.

[Miss Philicia]

I think the real excuse is that they don't have so many trailer parks in France.  Plus they're not so damn fat that they can't fit in the polling booth.

[milker]

I think the real excuse is that they don't have so many trailer parks in France.  Plus they're not so damn fat that they can't fit in the polling booth.

O Noez she's up 

[Miss Philicia]

O Noez she's up 

Yeah, the Brass Rail was a blast last night.  Missed seeing ya!

[milker]

Yeah, the Brass Rail was a blast last night.  Missed seeing ya!

<smirk>

[jack]

Of course the war wasnt evident. We still have idiots in US that think that terrorism started on 911. As far as Carousel saying we went after Iraq cause they would be an easy mark,who wouldnt? If we really wanted to destroy any country we could do it in a matter of days. But obviously we dont because we wentout of our way to spare civilians,unlike when we burnt both Japan and Germany to the the ground WW2. We won those wars by killing so many civilians they finally said enough is enough and surrendered.
The enormity of hate here for the US is really amazing.
I think the US vote should be on the weekend, because many people in US, who work, have a tough time getting to polls.  I can understand why many here dont vote, no matter who you vote for, you get the same result. Nothing happens. Look at the last two presidents? One a governor of the most impoverished state and one of the smallest states in the country,and sounded like a southern con man, the other a freaking northeast liberal republican who happened to be born in texas and cant speak coherently. Both these guys sucked as President, but look who the choice was? You vote for Clinton or deadman Bob Dole? Fucking Clinton was more conservative than Dole. Or Ross Perot?  A whacko. You vote Bush or a deadman named Kerry. No fucking choice either time. Or do you vote for a Warmer nutjob like Gore? Give us someone serious. No more bullshit.

[Miss Philicia]

Nobody hates the US honey.  They just hate the Repiglicans.  The Repiglicans //= US contrary to the Goebbels-type propaganda you subject yourself to on a daily basis.

[blondbeauty]

The mistake Segolene made was accusing the right of being immoral with no arguments, just because people of the left think they are always in possesion of the truth for the simple reason of belonging to the left. The right always has to find reasons for whatever they do and give explenations because they are judged negatively while the left seems to be protected by some kind of misterious moral purity without having to give explanations of what they do and why. Belonging to the right means having always to apologize for whatever you do or say.
I belong to the right and I have the same right to express myself without having to ask for permision and apologize. My moral is as good as everyone elses. That is democracy: freedom of thought.

[Miss Philicia]

Oh gee... more right wing martyrdom.  You're just *SO* persecuted.  Can I have some of that wood from the cross you're hanging from?

[milker]

Belonging to the right means having always to apologize for whatever you do or say.

If the right was telling O'reilly and Limbaugh that they are not representing their views, then maybe the right would feel less persecuted. When you listen to those guys no wonder.

Milker.

[milker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ic4xgOERgk 

[aupointillimite]

Well, given that the French have hopefully settled on a system of government that works for them (five republics, two empires, and a couple of kings restored and then ousted for good measure since 1789... but who's counting?)... I always have to hold my breath when the French vote for fear of another constitutional crisis.

But, congratulations to M. Sarkozy... France's economy is rather moribund, and I'm glad to see he didn't go to that ecole d'administation that the French political elite have all attended.  Some new blood might be good for them, perhaps. 

On vera... mais bonne chance. 

[thunter34]

I really hate when everybody starts writing in freedom, er...french around here since I don't know the language.

Le phooey.

[Miss Philicia]

"one will see... but good luck"