For the over 35.. AIDS victims in the 80s, then the mid-90s, the BB revolution?

[milker]

I was watching Logo, a gay channel, and they had a tribute for Freddy Mercury.

That made me think how I reacted to the death of Klaus Nomi, Rock Hudson, Freddy Mercury, Michel Foucault, Guy Hocquenghem, Rudolf Noureev and many others. My reaction at that time was to not have any unprotected anal sex, and basically not have anal sex at all, just blow jobs. I lost friends from AIDS, it was NOT a pretty picture. My mother was very close to some of them, and I've seen the devastating ends.

I got a long term bf in the early 90s, and started anal, and then when we broke up I wouldn't do anything else than oral. In the mid 90's the meds were getting better and I was so fucking tired of this "safe sex" (bb revolution?) that I started having unprotected anal. I was "lucky" I managed to avoid the virus for 10 years.

I'm asking the over 35 to reply because you're the ones that "felt" the problem in the 80s. The under 35s are welcome to reply, even though they haven't been through this in the 80s.

Milker (who does not discriminate)

[thunter34]

I'm not particularly clear on what part the above post you're wanting a reply to, milker.  Can you clarify a bit more?

Deaths of multitudes / celebrities in the 80's?  "Safe Sex" fatigue or what?

[Miss Philicia]

That's because he actually posed NO question.  Stunning.

I guess I'll answer "yesno" and call it a day.

[milker]

Well my post is a mix of multiple feelings:

1) Seeing the news of Rock Hudson's death on TV, Freddy Mercury, Klaus Nomi, etc. Journalists talking about AIDS, saying it's a gay disease, having absolutely no clue of what they're talking about, and the science being totally clueless. This was scary.

2) The mid-90's "we've had enough of safe sex" revolution. Sites like bareback.com opening, "negative barebacksex" ads, and horror from AIDS organization seeing that.

What I was trying to ask were what was the feelings of the people that have seen this devastating mid 80's AIDS epidemic with their own eyes when they see the "safe bareback" revolution?

I was saying that I was one of the "we've had enough of safe sex" ones, even though I've seen with my own eyes the deaths of AIDS. Is it because the media insists that the meds are now just a "one pill a day" thing and that being HIV is "not that bad" ?

Milker.

[milker]

That's because he actually posed NO question.  Stunning.

I guess I'll answer "yesno" and call it a day.

Grrrr.

[thunter34]

That's because he actually posed NO question.  Stunning.

I guess I'll answer "yesno" and call it a day.

I'm glad to know it wasn't just me!  I reread the original post like 3 or 4 times because I was afraid I was gonna sound stupid for asking....like surely the question was there and I just wasn't seeing it! 

[milker]

I'm glad to know it wasn't just me!  I reread the original post like 3 or 4 times because I was afraid I was gonna sound stupid for asking....like surely the question was there and I just wasn't seeing it! 

Grrrr..

Oh well. I tried lol

[milker]

Ok I think I have the question right:

"How is is possible that people who have seen the devastation of AIDS in the 80s became positive"

Whew.

Milker.

[BT65]

Actually, Milker, I remember when AZT was being celebrated and having to get a blood transfusion because of the megadosing that caused my hemoglobin to get dangerously low (2).  I saw the "ends" of many lives and the devestation of the disease, physically and mentally.  Right before I got my diagnosis, I was numb to anything anyway because of a mix of drugs/alcohol.  Then I remember when the ads hit the radio here in IN:  "If you have constant diarrhea, extremely high fevers, an extreme loss of weight," etc....  I thought "I'm not having that, so I must be o.k."  They used to describe what happened towards the end of the AIDS fight, not the seroconverting beginning symptoms.  Then, of course, I thought "Oh, that's in California and New York etc. not in South Bend, Indiana."  I'm glad the medicines have advanced as far as they have.  I don't think they really know the long-term affects these meds have on the body, but right now, it's all we have.  When I married my second husband, there were times he didn't want to use a condom (even though he knew about my diagnosis) and he's always tested negative.  When I married my wife (I was already divorced, I'm not a polygamous person) we used safe sex, like when she would go down on me, etc.   I don't know if people really think, "oh if I get HIV, it's just one pill a day," or if people are still thinking "it won't happen to me."    

[thunter34]

So more along the lines of what I called "Safe Sex Fatigue", or perhaps "Fear Fatigue".

[BT65]

By the way, my first husband infected me.

[milker]

Actually, Milker, I remember when AZT was being celebrated and having to get a blood transfusion because of the megadosing that caused my hemoglobin to get dangerously low (2).  I saw the "ends" of many lives and the devestation of the disease, physically and mentally.  Right before I got my diagnosis, I was numb to anything anyway because of a mix of drugs/alcohol.  Then I remember when the ads hit the radio here in IN:  "If you have constant diarrhea, extremely high fevers, an extreme loss of weight," etc....  I thought "I'm not having that, so I must be o.k."  They used to describe what happened towards the end of the AIDS fight, not the seroconverting beginning symptoms.  Then, of course, I thought "Oh, that's in California and New York etc. not in South Bend, Indiana."  I'm glad the medicines have advanced as far as they have.  I don't think they really know the long-term affects these meds have on the body, but right now, it's all we have.  When I married my second husband, there were times he didn't want to use a condom (even though he knew about my diagnosis) and he's always tested negative.  When I married my wife (I was already divorced, I'm not a polygamous person) we used safe sex, like when she would go down on me, etc.   I don't know if people really think, "oh if I get HIV, it's just one pill a day," or if people are still thinking "it won't happen to me."   

The first versions of AZT were not pretty, I remember that. Maybe it was celebration for scientists, but surely not for patients. It was hope, though, but didn't work well. The friends I lost were on AZT.

Milker.

[BT65]

My friends who died were all on AZT also.  The first guy I knew that died around here used to have dinner parties and would empty his bottle of AZT into a bowl and tell everyone it was "after-dinner mints."

[milker]

So more along the lines of what I called "Safe Sex Fatigue", or perhaps "Fear Fatigue".

I think that's what happened to me. But I think also that relegating HIV to a treatable disease without ever talking about the side effects and insisting that it's just 1 pill a day, a combo of magic, made me think and makes millions of people think "um ok, it's not bad".

It's interesting though, that when some people ARE infected, it's a totally different world. That's my experience. However I see people that are infected and don't give a shit about it, and they think it's just a cold and won't even get numbers or get treated. I believe that their reaction is also due to the misinformation that is going on nowadays.

Milker.

[Miss Philicia]

I'm over 35, but I was infected in the 80's so I guess this thread does not pertain to me.

[milker]

Ok I will start a new thread when I get this right. Obviously this one is not working. Too many feelings I guess.

[Miss Philicia]

"too many feelings"... no

lack of clarity... yes

[northernguy]

I never bought into the "bb revolution" so I'm all the more pissed of I got HIV.

[BT65]

I'm over 35 now (41), but I tested positive when I was 24.

[milker]

"too many feelings"... no

lack of clarity... yes

That's what happens when I stop drinking.

Milker.

[beefbud]

my two cents. 
Not necessarily lack of education but how its being taught?  I remember being a senior in high school and having classes taught on it but I sat back and just wondered why the hell they were showing me this?  (I was not sexual in high school at all, had no desire for it.) I think that yes, education is out there but I don't think its enough to just tell a person don't do this don't do that...it never worked from your parents why would it work from a complete stranger?
Feeling of being invincible. (please tell me I am not the only one that thought I was.)
Stupidity (ultimately this is the biggest reason)
I am 39

[Buckmark]

Technically speaking, I don't fit the demographics of the people you are asking to
respond, since I am over 35 (43) but was infected in the 80s (ok, 1989).  But I don't
think the question needs to be so limited to timeframes and ages.  I think what
you are asking is:  If you've seen the devastation that HIV/AIDS causes, particularly
before the arrival of effective anti-retroviral medications, how can you have become
infected anyway?

There are several answers to that question:

Some people think they are invincible, as Beefbud points out above.  Even having
all the information, they still think HIV/AIDS can't happen to them.  Maybe this is
more like denial.

Others simply don't have all the facts about HIV/AIDS and how it is transmitted.
Our education systems aren't perfect.  And heck, with an education system that
some would like to focus exclusively on abstinence, why would anyone need to
know how it is transmitted?   

Still others think getting HIV/AIDS is "inevitable".  It is just a matter of time until
they get it, so why worry about practicing safe sex?

There's another view that HIV/AIDS is now manageable / treatable, so it is
"no big deal".  Just take a couple of pills every day and you'll be fine.  I'm not
sure if this comes from a lack of education, or a denial of the facts.

Others just make a mistake.  In the heat of the moment, we're not always
thinking about what we were taught about safe sex back in health class.
I mean, if everyone acted completely rationally, we'd all avoid STDs of any
kind, not just HIV/AIDS.

I'm not sure which, if any, of these is the most prevalent reason.  It's probably
a combination of them.

Regards,

Henry

[Moffie65]

Milker,

Please don't start a new thread, as this one is already getting some very thoughtful answers.  Yes, a bit confused on the first post, but hell, this medium is mostly confusing anyway, so don't sweat it that it might be a bit off center in the start.

Listen boys and girls, many of us in the early 80's were so very confused by news coming out of the government, which at that time was working with budget restrictions that were appallingly low, drug companies that were not interested because the government wasn't, Gay activists that were fighting so many things on so many fronts that their news was indecipherable, and on and on and on; that many of us became totally fatigued and as the funerals became more and more common, our faith in society in general was evaporating, and our faith in our own existence was becoming more and more hopeless.  Now you place a moral question of having unsafe sex and suddenly you get an audience that has left the room.  Many of us had become so fatalistic that really none of us would survive this new deadly disease, that safe sex conversations became nothing more than a slight glance or a look.  In the tubs, there were condoms, but when one reasoned that with the latest news that if you used poppers when cumming, that was the only way you would get HIV; then you passed up the condom bowl and went on your way, knowing that you weren't using poppers anyway.  Tell you the truth, I do miss the orgy rooms, I miss the nude swimming at the Russian River, I do miss many of the hedonistic things that became part of our community at the time.

BUT

With the progression of research, continuing deaths, improved knowledge about the disease in the latter part of the 80's, many of us became virtually monastic in our sexual practices.  Meanwhile, always wondering if in fact we were infected.  Personally, I didn't get tested when it became available in 1985, mainly because in my heart I knew there was no possible way I could not be infected.  (diagnosed without a test in '83)  I lived my life as though I would not live forever, and did many things that in retrospect were totally stupid, like buying a Kenworth 18 wheeler to make an attempt to make a living trucking.  I didn't have health insurance ($3500/mo from Blue Cross), but didn't care because I figured if I died on the road, I would do so accomplishing something I really wanted to do. 

I guess fatalism was the rule of the day for years, so when people finally became tired of all the bullshit, this progressed into barebacking.  By then, I was now living in the Southwest in New Mexico, and I was seeing things that I couldn't even relate to.  It became really clear that the country had really shot itself in the foot when we found out that in the Southwest, kids were now having anal sex because of two very important reasons.  First, there was no way a heterosexual kid could get HIV from having anal sex, and secondly, the girls then remained virgins in the eyes of the Catholic Church.  Needless to say, this was one of the huge motivating factors in creating our first HIV organization in a farming community in the desert.

I do hope that some of what I have typed here helps in giving you some historical perspective, but hopelessness was probably the main ingredient in the popularity of BB.  Personally, I always knew that it was a poisonous bit of treachery, and that in the end, it would really be something that would haunt us into the future, but that is also one of the motivating factors in my very militant attitude towards the "HIV Lite" mantra that has driven many to abandon any semblance of self control, or self preservation.  My sweetie and I have often discussed this, and the conclusion that we have come to is that we all missed the boat and we should have lied in the beginning and created a prevention message around loosing your penis or vagina if you became positive.  That might have stemmed the tide of this disease, but in the end, I doubt it.

Love,

[milker]

Great post Moffie, thanks.

Buckmark, education about safer sex is not that complicated: put a condom on your dick. I think after I first tested negative years ago, I started to believe that I was immune in some way, because I had sucked so many dicks that it was impossible for me to be negative. Now this is where education was lacking, for me, I was never told what I see everyday on Am I Infected: the oral sex risk is extremly low, the anal sex risk is extremely high. I even reached a point where I told the HIV councellor: "maybe I should be checked for immunity?"  I'm laughing about this now, but I was really serious! I believe that all those negative tests one after the other gave me confidence that it cannot happen to me.

At the same time, AIDS activism disappeared from the main media outlets, bareback was coming back, people "looked good", the dark side of AIDS was hidden. I came to a point where all those elements combined made me go on an anonymous bareback trip. I'm back from the trip, and joined the AM family.

Milker.

[Miss Philicia]

I have to say I do not understand all the barebacking craze currently in the gay (assumedly HIV-) community.  Interesting it's also greatly infiltrated the gay porn industry, where it had once been largely consigned to the utter fringe market and only produced by one or two small studios.  Now I would estimate half the market is putting them out, and they specialize in swooping up unsuspecting 18 year old Hungarians.  Frankly I find it appalling as a business model but what's a girl to do?  I'm sure they simply rationalize it as crass capitalism and if there wasn't a market for it they'd not be making it.

I always wonder if it's the buying market influencing the producers, or the end product influencing the behavioral patterns of the buyer?

[milker]

Interesting it's also greatly infiltrated the gay porn industry, where it had once been largely consigned to the utter fringe market and only produced by one or two small studios. 

Very true, you must remember the screeching halt from the industry when 2 porn stars got infected, and how the industry was "appalled" when a company released the first bareback video for the general public in years. Now it's bareback here, bareback there. I think there are many people that enjoy bb videos but still play safe. But for how long?

Milker.

[Bucko]

Milker,

Please don't start a new thread, as this one is already getting some very thoughtful answers.  Yes, a bit confused on the first post, but hell, this medium is mostly confusing anyway, so don't sweat it that it might be a bit off center in the start.

Listen boys and girls, many of us in the early 80's were so very confused by news coming out of the government, which at that time was working with budget restrictions that were appallingly low, drug companies that were not interested because the government wasn't, Gay activists that were fighting so many things on so many fronts that their news was indecipherable, and on and on and on; that many of us became totally fatigued and as the funerals became more and more common, our faith in society in general was evaporating, and our faith in our own existence was becoming more and more hopeless.  Now you place a moral question of having unsafe sex and suddenly you get an audience that has left the room.  Many of us had become so fatalistic that really none of us would survive this new deadly disease, that safe sex conversations became nothing more than a slight glance or a look.  In the tubs, there were condoms, but when one reasoned that with the latest news that if you used poppers when cumming, that was the only way you would get HIV; then you passed up the condom bowl and went on your way, knowing that you weren't using poppers anyway.  Tell you the truth, I do miss the orgy rooms, I miss the nude swimming at the Russian River, I do miss many of the hedonistic things that became part of our community at the time.

BUT

With the progression of research, continuing deaths, improved knowledge about the disease in the latter part of the 80's, many of us became virtually monastic in our sexual practices.  Meanwhile, always wondering if in fact we were infected.  Personally, I didn't get tested when it became available in 1985, mainly because in my heart I knew there was no possible way I could not be infected.  (diagnosed without a test in '83)  I lived my life as though I would not live forever, and did many things that in retrospect were totally stupid, like buying a Kenworth 18 wheeler to make an attempt to make a living trucking.  I didn't have health insurance ($3500/mo from Blue Cross), but didn't care because I figured if I died on the road, I would do so accomplishing something I really wanted to do. 


Love,

Moffie encapsulated my feelings perfectly regarding the early years. The only thing I'll add is that just prior to the sudden arrival of sickness, the gay media was saturated with books (such as The Joy Of Gay Sex) which proclaimed that it was our right and obligation as bright young things to explore society's boundaries of what was right and honorable. We were exhorted to tread new paths and find new meaning to our lives, and this involved hedonism. On a practical level, this was facilitated by Tea Dances and bath houses and the popularity of porn theaters.

To have my raison d'etre suddenly transform into raison de n'etre plus was horrifying, and I absolutely succumbed to the fatalism Tim describes so well.

But this part is different for me:

but hopelessness was probably the main ingredient in the popularity of BB.  Personally, I always knew that it was a poisonous bit of treachery, and that in the end, it would really be something that would haunt us into the future, but that is also one of the motivating factors in my very militant attitude towards the "HIV Lite" mantra that has driven many to abandon any semblance of self control, or self preservation.  My sweetie and I have often discussed this, and the conclusion that we have come to is that we all missed the boat and we should have lied in the beginning and created a prevention message around loosing your penis or vagina if you became positive.  That might have stemmed the tide of this disease, but in the end, I doubt it.

I don't equate my practice of serosorting and then forgoing condoms as an abandonment of self-control, nor do I think it's inherently self-destructive. For me rediscovering with my libido after a nine-year relationship of dry, uninteresting sex with a profoundly uncreative partner (on top of ten years of fear and sexual limit-setting) is reconnecting with the very essence of what always made me me. For me the revolution of unprotected sex lies in snatching gay sex back from both the medical profession and that unholy alliance of conservative moralists with condom-waving preventionists. I have seen sex desexualized, sterilized and sanitized to the point where it's unrecognizable as a pleasurable activity.

If safer sex really were that pleasurable, there'd be no need to oversell it as "hot". It's not. Whether you'd care to discuss how to put on a condom that doesn't remind one instantly of its necessity (not a sexy picture) or that dreadful foul-tasting sticky lube (excepting the horribly expensive silicone-based stuff that is a relative new-comer on the scene), safer sex is a buzzkill and an onerous burden. It's been that way for me, and I'm sure for most of you if you'll be honest. And since I've already contracted the worst that unprotected sex can offer, I have little fear of much more minor complications to my already-shortened life.

I can take no responsibility for how this effects the negative population at large. If they wish to view seroconversion as a manageable exercises in pill-swallowing (despite all the evidence to the contrary) let them discover the truth once they've passed over to our side. As I exclude them from my roster of potential sex partners, the virus strain they contract won't be mine.

And as regards the trend in BB porn:
For me (and presumably for most people) the trigger that makes porn so electrifying is in the depiction of something I'll never do. This can be either the act itself or the people doing it, preferably (but rarely) both. There has to be a surprise element of something unanticipated by me either in terms of what they are doing or who is doing it. Carefully staged and choreographed depictions of safe sex performed by familiar, predictable figures holds no interest to me whatsoever.

Brent
(Who feels that sex affirms his existence, not negates it)

[Miss Philicia]

I think there are many people that enjoy bb videos but still play safe. But for how long?

Milker.

anecdotal /= data

I don't really buy it considering infection rates are rising in the gay community during the same time span that BB videos have become mainstreamed.

[Moffie65]

I don't equate my practice of serosorting and then forgoing condoms as an abandonment of self-control, nor do I think it's inherently self-destructive.

Actually Brent, it is far from self destructive, nor is it abandoning self control, but is in fact just the opposite and shows an exerciseing of real control and real self preservation.  

Serosorting is something I left out on purpose, but Bucko brings a whole other color to the table when this is thrown into the mix.  IF, I were in my 30's or 40's again "today", I trust I would be very much like Bucko, and would definately be a serosorter of some ilk.  Even when I met my sweetie, back in January of '88, I first off told him that I was HIV+, which didn't send him running for the door, but simply became a statement of fact for him.  Yes, I was fortunate to meet him, but really, I didn't have the balls to leave either, because his spirit and nature was incredible.  I knew we could work through it, when I saw his reaction to my announce.  We have, but still, if I were 20 years younger right now, I wouldn't probably be dating anyone who wasn't HIV+.  Just too much of a nightmare.  

Love,

[Miss Philicia]

If safer sex really were that pleasurable, there'd be no need to oversell it as "hot". It's not. Whether you'd care to discuss how to put on a condom that doesn't remind one instantly of its necessity (not a sexy picture) or that dreadful foul-tasting sticky lube (excepting the horribly expensive silicone-based stuff that is a relative new-comer on the scene), safer sex is a buzzkill and an onerous burden. It's been that way for me, and I'm sure for most of you if you'll be honest.

Actually, I can be quite honest and state using rubbers never actually turned me off.  Due to my age I didn't know anything else but that, as I began having sex right at the very beginning of the epidemic ('83).  Obviously I fucked up a few times or my sorry ass wouldn't be posting on this board but by and large I was never a bare backing fanatic.  I always just assumed that it was because I was a bottom and frankly whether or not a condom is used it still feels like a cock in my ass... I guess since you're a top it's different.  It was always the lame top who wanted to not use a condom... you don't know how many times I had to initiate safety precautions.  It's even worse when 80% of your topping partners are uncut latino men... that drooping foreskin detests the rubberized restriction even more it seems.

No need to question other's "honesty" on the issue... that's a tired statement Brent.  I will agree if I'm topping that not using a condom feels better, but since I assume that position about once every decade I could care less.  Am I selfish about this?  Yeah sure... whatever.  Anyway, I'm talking about "back then" in the 80's when I was making an attempt to not die.

And as regards the trend in BB porn:
For me (and presumably for most people) the trigger that makes porn so electrifying is in the depiction of something I'll never do. This can be either the act itself or the people doing it, preferably (but rarely) both. There has to be a surprise element of something unanticipated by me either in terms of what they are doing or who is doing it. Carefully staged and choreographed depictions of safe sex performed by familiar, predictable figures holds no interest to me whatsoever.

Unfortunately your commentary, as well thought out as you assume it to be, seeming lacks any concerns for the performers.

I will say this, that my aim is not to be a lecturing prude.  I'm so very not that.  If there was any way in the pornography market to restrict BB videos that were made solely with HIV infected individuals who serosort (like you do Brent) and then sell these only to other HIV positive people then the issue would not concern me.  However, obviously that is not a position based on any sort of realism.

It seems to me, that IF (and I do stress the "if) one can link the DATA of rising infections with this trend in pornography, and I realize my assertion is tenuous, then it's irresponsible of the porn producer as the fact remains we are still, as a community, in the middle of an epidemic.  That's all I'm saying.  I could care less what you personally do in the privacy of your own bedroom, and I'd never share what I personally do or do not in my bedroom as anecdotal information to prove an assertion, though I have no problems discussing my sex habits with others on a personal basis. I find it somewhat irrelevant in proving larger trends however.

[Bucko]

I don't equate my practice of serosorting and then forgoing condoms as an abandonment of self-control, nor do I think it's inherently self-destructive.

Actually Brent, it is far from self destructive, nor is it abandoning self control, but is in fact just the opposite and shows an exerciseing of real control and real self preservation. 

Serosorting is something I left out on purpose, but Bucko brings a whole other color to the table when this is thrown into the mix.  IF, I were in my 30's or 40's again "today", I trust I would be very much like Bucko, and would definately be a serosorter of some ilk.  Even when I met my sweetie, back in January of '88, I first off told him that I was HIV+, which didn't send him running for the door, but simply became a statement of fact for him.  Yes, I was fortunate to meet him, but really, I didn't have the balls to leave either, because his spirit and nature was incredible.  I knew we could work through it, when I saw his reaction to my announce.  We have, but still, if I were 20 years younger right now, I wouldn't probably be dating anyone who wasn't HIV+.  Just too much of a nightmare. 

Love,

Thanks for the clarification, Daddy Tim 

It didn't sound much like you at the time I read it. But it probably is a picture of my mindset that it nevre occurred to me that we'd be discussing unprotected sex among negs, so it was my bad.

Brent
(Who feels warm & fuzzy again)

[fondeveau]

Ok I think I have the question right:

"How is is possible that people who have seen the devastation of AIDS in the 80s became positive"

Whew.

Milker.

Well, I was horny and did someone I usually wouldn't consider doing and he let me do whatever I wanted which was great and the problem was that he was letting everyone do whatever they wanted...and anyhow...just stupid shit and voila, positive!  But, I've said it before - in lots of ways its a relief not to have to worry about possible exposure.  I suppose statistically speaking it would happen sooner or later (I know this will cause some disagreement re effective use of condom and low-risk vs high-risk activity, etc)

[keyite]

Actually, I can be quite honest and state using rubbers never actually turned me off.  Due to my age I didn't know anything else but that, as I began having sex right at the very beginning of the epidemic ('83). 

I agree. The times I fucked up was because the other guy wanted it without and I went along because I was in a frame of mind where I felt I had to please. It was never an 'onerous burden', it was just how things were (and still am). I'm exclusively a top and I always felt condoms helped positively to slow things down and make me longer lasting, so to speak. Being uncut I suppose I'm pretty sensitive...

It seems to me, that IF (and I do stress the "if) one can link the DATA of rising infections with this trend in pornography, and I realize my assertion is tenuous, then it's irresponsible of the porn producer as the fact remains we are still, as a community, in the middle of an epidemic.

I agree it is nearly impossible to prove a link, but I personally think there's little doubt that porn influences and informs real life sexual behaviour. It is often the first introduction to the 'gay world' that young guys have and where they learn about sex and sexual practice. Although I'm not in favour of censorship I do feel it's very sad that producers don't take their responsibilities more seriously. It is certainly no surprise that the epidemic, not least amongst the very young, continues unabated.

[Bucko]

Actually, I can be quite honest and state using rubbers never actually turned me off.  Due to my age I didn't know anything else but that, as I began having sex right at the very beginning of the epidemic ('83).  Obviously I fucked up a few times or my sorry ass wouldn't be posting on this board but by and large I was never a bare backing fanatic.  I always just assumed that it was because I was a bottom and frankly whether or not a condom is used it still feels like a cock in my ass... I guess since you're a top it's different.

No need to question other's "honesty" on the issue... that's a tired statement Brent.  I will agree if I'm topping that not using a condom feels better, but since I assume that position about once every decade I could care less.  Am I selfish about this?  Yeah sure... whatever.  Anyway, I'm talking about "back then" in the 80's when I was making an attempt to not die.

I did meet a few bottoms (not many, but a few) who were able to sexualize condoms and make it part of the play. But I met so many more for whom it meant a delay while I got it on (mood change and occasional lighting change and everything) during which they did very little. I found this much more tolerable when I was  in my 20s and 30s. It's also, as you mentioned, an artifact of being an exclusive anal top. I have tried every condom possible, and can state with certainty that they diminish the sensation dramatically. I also found that condom use precludes much of the energy and roughness I prefer to bring to bed. My ex of nine years seroconverted because the condom ripped during some intense play.

My request for honesty was an aside and did not mean to suggest that everyone who uses condoms as a top and claims it's acceptable is a liar. But it is in my experience that very very very few guys relish the concept of putting a condom on. As my experience with other tops is restricted to conversational anecdote I'll presume that I am not in a minority. But I've frequently found that any conversation about safer sex is clouded by a preventionist agenda. That is fine and good (prevention is a good thing and I was an activist as well in another life) as far as it goes. But what some proclaim publicly can differ from one's private practice. I have seen this first hand.

The porn industry has been dancing around condoms for years. I remember when unprotected gay sex was at the very margins of what was shown, although straight porn seems unaware of any HIV risks. It was usually quasi-amateur hardcore SMBD stuff and a very low-rent affair. The other option was then (late 80s, early 90s) German porn depicting extremely young guys (practically kiddie porn) under the title of Sperma Boys and others. These were always available in video stores in Boston and always had their market. Pre-condom stuff was always very popular too.

The advent of all this BB stuff produced in Scandinavia or Central Europe showing young men having unprotected sex (probably Czech, Hungarians tend to be bigger and more manly) undoubtedly satisfies a large market world wide. There is also Thai porn that is usually condomless and again shows young skinny hairless guys and/or Trannies having sex. Do these performers understand their risks? Probably not. Do I support that segment of the market? Generally not. Does the work of American studios like Hot Desert Knights and Treasure Island Media which show older men (many of whom display advanced Lipoatrophy) bear comparison to the cheap imports? Not at all.

The quality of the imports is occasionally comparable with some direct-to-web American stuff and shows the similar predictable types (skinny twinks) having very ordinary vanilla sex without benefit of condoms. I am not a consumer because I'm not a fan. But if you're asking if I think access to these materials should be restricted (beyond age) I'd have to say no. And beyond restricting access, I don't know any other way to control the flow of that stuff. If they are playing Russian Roulette with their well-being, it's their problem, not mine.

Brent
(Who knows porn) 

[Moffie65]

I guess I should bow out of the conversation at this point, because my memory from the late 70's and '80's, was that porn wasn't such a big deal, and the quality was nothing to write home about.  Also, porn "with" the use of condoms was not something I was used to seeing at all, simply because it wasn't the norm at the time. 

Mostly, I wouldn't be of any service to the conversation from here on out, because I don't partake in porn and seldom have.  I have one disc that I get out of the toybox about once a year, but other than that, I have always preferred making my own porn.  Most of which, didn't ever include condoms because all the people that were in my porn movies were also very much HIV+, and our audience consisted of only the participants in the shoots.

Love,

[Miss Philicia]

I think we're more on the same page then it may seem Brent.  I don't advocate censorship or restrictions as I don't see them as enforceable.  I just find it rather interesting that we're seeing a rise in BB activity at the same time as it rises in porn, and both are followed by rising infection rates.  I guess the question is how high do infection rates go before there's an outcry?  Also, it just brings me back to the 80's -- as I'm sure you recall it was quite sometime before leading (crap) studios like Falcon (eww) and Catalina (even more ewww) made their models use condoms in videos.  I just think it's back tracking IN THAT INDUSTRY that something like 50% of the titles out there now (as opposed to maybe 10% five years ago) are now BB movies.  And you don't have to seek them out, they're prominently displayed in any gay retail store.

If I could be effectively convinced that viewing BB pornography did not influence private behavior (and mine you, my discussion is aimed at HIV negative people... I'm well aware that you and I are beyond the topic) then I'd not even discuss this matter.  But I'm highly skeptical.

As an aside I recently went on eBay to purchase a copy of the very first piece of gay pornography I ever bought as a teenager, as I'd lost the magazine in the late 80's when a roommate of mine took my entire porn collection in a fit of rage and dumped it out on street.  So anyway, I'm flipping through it and memories of Lee Ryder on the cover are flowing back to me and I start reading an article in it about AIDS.  The issue is dated April '83 so they were right on the cusp of having just given it a name but still knowing hardly anything about it.  It was rather odd to read it, ad it took me back to that period where as soon as I was able to look at porn etc. I had all of this disease around me.

Not sure why I added that last paragraph in here but I just felt like it damn it!

[planonstaying]

I am 45. I remember  when they weren't even sure  what  caused hiv, how communicable it was and had no way to tell who had it till they got sick. I remember "ARC" as a label.

I had  what would best described as dual attractions  during that time frame. I had never had MSM sex  but had fantasized about it. I did like sex with girls but I really sucked at getting laid  and had a substance abuse problem to boot  and had long periods of celibacy. When I got clean I started seeing a therapist. I was confused about my sexuality. I  was 23 and thought of it as a black and white thing and  didn't understand it wasn't  really cut and dry. He was good but frankly in 1985  during what had to be pretty much   the height of the ignorance about HIV it was real easy to  just go with th ye societal flow and  ignore  some feelings. I remember  in the late 80s if i was around a guy I was attracted to I would blush and if I was around a woman i was attracted to I was so shy.  I did fall madly in love along the way and got married and honestly  had only the very occasional fantasy about msm during that period.  The marriage ended in divorce which at the time was devastating but a gift in hindseight.  I fell in love  with a few more women post divorce but along the way started to have fantasies about men again.  With the internet it was easy  to anonymously if  not exactly safely  experiment. I have always had issues with risk taking behavior( see definition addict or ADD).  I liked it, I experimented more but I never really  sought more than sex. It really became a hollow existence that  led me to withdraw  from a lot of friends. I had some unsafe sex along the way and here I am now.  Honestly, looking at it  the treatability of HIV wasn't what made it OK  it was the sense of excitement of it. It happened in the heat of the moment. I am not real good at thinking through consequences  to begin with.  I could blame having ADD but  of all the things I have ever been called in my life stupid wasn't one of them.   At the moment i allowed someone else to make  a choice  I put any thought of the consequences aside. i am not a victim. I made a decision that had  consequences.  

Since  my diagnosis, I am actually  looking at my sexuality, dealing with a lot of  the issues of shame  that led to  way i was treating myself and isolating myself. My Dr. spent an hr  talking to me about those kind of issues  before even talking about HIV when I first saw her.  She saw I was  having  multiple crisis lol.    I am working on accepting my change in status  as well as  reopening myself to the world and  coming to peace  with  my sexuality. I get angry about both sometimes. i really was happy being married ten years ago.  Discovering I was gay was not in my life plan.
  My infection had nothing to do with  the treatments available and everything to do with my own  life time pattern of self sabotaging behavior. Honestly, I am not a huge God person but  I think  this kind of event  was what it was going to take for me to  turn, face  and charge my problems.  I have been told I am like a light switch. all the way on or all the way off. I had lived 3 or 4 years in fullout avoidance mode and  it really was  taking a toll. When i turn to deal with something I am a pitbull.  I charge the bull grab the snout and wrestle it into  the dirt. I am facing  both issues now and charging.  I  am starting to  be OK again with some ups and downs. I know real peace and acceptance  are in  my future.  Resiliency is my forte. I  bend in the wind i don't break.  

I don't think it matters how I got infected now.  What matters now is how  i embrace life today.

[Bucko]

I think we're more on the same page then it may seem Brent.  I don't advocate censorship or restrictions as I don't see them as enforceable.  I just find it rather interesting that we're seeing a rise in BB activity at the same time as it rises in porn, and both are followed by rising infection rates.  I guess the question is how high do infection rates go before there's an outcry?  Also, it just brings me back to the 80's -- as I'm sure you recall it was quite sometime before leading (crap) studios like Falcon (eww) and Catalina (even more ewww) made their models use condoms in videos.  I just think it's back tracking IN THAT INDUSTRY that something like 50% of the titles out there now (as opposed to maybe 10% five years ago) are now BB movies.  And you don't have to seek them out, they're prominently displayed in any gay retail store.

If I could be effectively convinced that viewing BB pornography did not influence private behavior (and mine you, my discussion is aimed at HIV negative people... I'm well aware that you and I are beyond the topic) then I'd not even discuss this matter.  But I'm highly skeptical.

As an aside I recently went on eBay to purchase a copy of the very first piece of gay pornography I ever bought as a teenager, as I'd lost the magazine in the late 80's when a roommate of mine took my entire porn collection in a fit of rage and dumped it out on street.  So anyway, I'm flipping through it and memories of Lee Ryder on the cover are flowing back to me and I start reading an article in it about AIDS.  The issue is dated April '83 so they were right on the cusp of having just given it a name but still knowing hardly anything about it.  It was rather odd to read it, ad it took me back to that period where as soon as I was able to look at porn etc. I had all of this disease around me.

Not sure why I added that last paragraph in here but I just felt like it damn it!

I was honestly unaware that Falcoln or Catalina (double eeew) were now marketing unprotected content. But they follow the dollar, that's for sure, grinding out the lowest-common denominator every time. If any of the major porn factories in LA were to start producing BB, my bet would have been on All Worlds.

I used to periodically purge my porn mags by sharing the wealth with friends who I knew appreciated my tastes. But every blue moon I'll find a JPEG from some old, well-worn mag from my old stuff and smile, hoping that some young guy will find the same attraction I did.

I had  what would best described as dual attractions  during that time frame. I had never had MSM sex  but had fantasized about it. I did like sex with girls but I really sucked at getting laid  and had a substance abuse problem to boot  and had long periods of celibacy. When I got clean I started seeing a therapist. I was confused about my sexuality. I  was 23 and thought of it as a black and white thing and  didn't understand it wasn't  really cut and dry. He was good but frankly in 1985  during what had to be pretty much   the height of the ignorance about HIV it was real easy to  just go with th ye societal flow and  ignore  some feelings. I remember  in the late 80s if i was around a guy I was attracted to I would blush and if I was around a woman i was attracted to I was so shy.  I did fall madly in love along the way and got married and honestly  had only the very occasional fantasy about msm during that period.  The marriage ended in divorce which at the time was devastating but a gift in hindseight.  I fell in love  with a few more women post divorce but along the way started to have fantasies about men again.  With the internet it was easy  to anonymously if  not exactly safely  experiment. I have always had issues with risk taking behavior( see definition addict or ADD).  I liked it, I experimented more but I never really  sought more than sex. It really became a hollow existence that  led me to withdraw  from a lot of friends. I had some unsafe sex along the way and here I am now.  Honestly, looking at it  the treatability of HIV wasn't what made it OK  it was the sense of excitement of it. It happened in the heat of the moment. I am not real good at thinking through consequences  to begin with.  I could blame having ADD but  of all the things I have ever been called in my life stupid wasn't one of them.   At the moment i allowed someone else to make  a choice  I put any thought of the consequences aside. i am not a victim. I made a decision that had  consequences. 

Planonstaying-
Ask any of the second or third wave of seroconversions (MtD or Benj spring to mind) and they'll say just what you did. Anyone sexually acive in the Western World after 1984 (at the latest) was well-apprized of the risk of unprotected sex. They chose to not heed the warnings and live with the virus as a result.

But I hope you've been able to come to grips with the shame you feel about sex. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater isn't really such a good thing, and sex offers so many possibilities in self-discovery.

Brent
(Who remains both porn-and sex-positive)

[milker]

I guess I should bow out of the conversation at this point, because my memory from the late 70's and '80's, was that porn wasn't such a big deal, and the quality was nothing to write home about.  Also, porn "with" the use of condoms was not something I was used to seeing at all, simply because it wasn't the norm at the time. 

Mostly, I wouldn't be of any service to the conversation from here on out, because I don't partake in porn and seldom have.  I have one disc that I get out of the toybox about once a year, but other than that, I have always preferred making my own porn.  Most of which, didn't ever include condoms because all the people that were in my porn movies were also very much HIV+, and our audience consisted of only the participants in the shoots.

Love,

Moffie, the only "porn" I was looking at in the mid 80s was magazines like Honcho and gay classifieds in other newspapers. I did rent a few tapes, but it was not my major interest (it is now!).

I have always been well aware of the risks, but somehow, something that kept me negative since switched off in the last 3 years, and I'm wondering why. An earlier post said "well i'm gonna be hiv+ one day, so let be it now", and I think that's what applies to me. Had there been more reality in the media and on the websites maybe I would have delayed my "conversion".

Milker.

[thunter34]

Actually, I don't think that the "leading producers"  (Catalina and Falcon, etc) are in the BB business to date.  What I do think has happened is that many of the pockets associated with those lines have started separate indie lines to produce BB porn.  (Like how major record labels will create "indie" labels).  I'm sure a good many of them want to get their hands on those dollars without having to take the flack of breaking their safe-sex only production rules.  I imagine it's fairly under the table.  Just a hunch.

[Miss Philicia]

I was honestly unaware that Falcoln or Catalina (double eeew) were now marketing unprotected content. But they follow the dollar, that's for sure, grinding out the lowest-common denominator every time. If any of the major porn factories in LA were to start producing BB, my bet would have been on All Worlds.

Oh no, I was not implying that Falcon or Catalina had begun releasing BB porn, only comparing how long it took them to begin using condoms in the first place as an activist achieved milestone from the late 80's that is now disappearing in the gay porn market as a whole.  Catalina is practically defunct compared to the last decade anyway, and Falcon is quickly becoming a ghost of itself after ownership changed hands a few years ago, Rutherford moving to produce the newly revamped Colt Studios.

Anyway, I don't bother with much of this crap.  I watch a lot of Brazilian porn and/or French produced Arab porn, at least currently.

[Jake72]

I'm 35, so I guess I fit in here.

I think that I got infected because of an "it can never happen to me attitude" and also through misplaced trust.

There was a lot (an understatement) of press about HIV/AIDS in the 1980s, but remember, there was a lot of press about a lot of things back then.  It was a very preachy time (remember the "very special episodes" of almost every TV show) and AIDS awareness/prevention was sandwiched somewhere between messages of an impending nuclear holocaust (remember "The Day After," etc.) that never happened and paranoid messages that one whiff of marijuana would lead to hardcore heroin use within a matter of time.  I think that some of us who were young people in the '80s got so tired  of the melodramatic, "cry wolf" approach to everything that it was sometimes not easy to differentiate scare tactics from real threats.

The statistics were (are?) that in  the US, about 1% of the population has HIV.  Putting it another way, about 99% of the population doesn't.  Then there's the observation that HIV is supposedly not an easy virus to spread, and that if you have unprotected sex, chances are (statistically) that you won't get HIV.  

Also, when we are neg, we usually have other things on our minds, like work, day-to-day stuff, love, sex, etc.  We usually don't like to dwell on the "bummers of life," such as illness, especially not when we want to fall in love, be accepted, and/or are feeling incredibly horny.   We don't think that this great, healthy-looking, carefree, sweet person we're with is carrying a virus, just as we wouldn't think that he/she could rob us, scam us, slit our throats, etc.  (all of which is possible, but unpleasant to think about).   By the same token, when we go to our fave restaurant for a delicious sandwich, we don't think "hmmm, this could give me food poisoning," even though it is possible.

Now that we're poz, hindsight is 20/20.  

[milker]

Now that we're poz, hindsight is 20/20. 

I choked on that one  it's so true! Nice post, Jake thanks.

Milker.

[Miss Philicia]

Also in the 80's as you will recall HIV was very concentrated initially in large cities, particularly NYC and SF, and also seemed to be hitting people more in their 30's and 40's.  So me being the 20 year old queen in Richmond, VA didn't really pay it much mind at first.  I can't even recall knowing of anyone who had it until I moved to NYC in the late 80's.  In the hinterlands there seemed to be a bit more abstract notion to it all.

Of course, I was plopping myself down in the epicenter when I moved and I did try and be prudent and was most of the time.  It's feasible I could have gotten it in Virginia though... all it takes is getting plowed by one local queen who'd gotten it on a trip to NYC, etc.  In hindsight I could have gotten it anytime from '83 - '89, but it's more likely it was around the later.

[BT65]

Also in the 80's as you will recall HIV was very concentrated initially in large cities, particularly NYC and SF, and also seemed to be hitting people more in their 30's and 40's. 

My sentiments exactly!  I'm from a small town (actually I was raised in Michigan, not Indiana), and when I seroconverted I remember wondering, "Could this be it?"  But at that time, it was mostly New York, San Fransisco and Florida.  I was also very young.  Then the commercials:  "If you have extremely high fevers, constant diarrhea, lose weight rapidly..."  So I thought, no way.  In my town, if I would have gone down to get tested, they would have naturally assumed I was an IV drug user.  Just like my first HIV doctor did and put that as my "risk grou" on his form he fills out about his poz patients.  (I'm sure he did that because of me being in recovery, even though that's not how I became poz, which really doesn't matter if it is or isn't.  I just don't like people assuming).