I'm undetectable, condom broke. Chances?

[Dantheman]

Hi,

I know there's a few threads out there, but I'm having a mild panic attack.  I slept with someone and I topped him.  I believe the condom broke between 0 - 5 minutes in which I found out when I pulled out.  I'm scared that I infected him.  I've been undetectable for over two years (undetectable one month after treatment, found out month after infection) What is the risk?  Are there any updates on the study?  I feel like I can't live with myself if I did this to someone. 

thanks.

[leatherman]

U=U (undetectable equals untransmittable)

The PARTNER Study has recorded 58,000 acts of penetrative sex without condoms between 1,000 positive/negative couples, in which the HIV positive partner had an undetectable viral load. There were no infections between the couples. Not a single one. The same results were reported in the HPTN 052 study and the empirical evidence to date. As Dr. Wolitiski said in his USCA speech, "this is a game-changing moment in the history of the HIV epidemic."

http://www.thebody.com/content/79049/five-reasons-hiv-undetectable-must-equal-untransmi.html

[Dantheman]

Thanks leatherman,

I have to say, I cried when I read the top portion.  The pressure was unbearable. 

[Jim Allen]

I feel like I can't live with myself if I did this to someone. 

thanks.

Look i understand the feeling but you not doing it to someone else. ... well you know what i mean.

Your are taking precautions as in you are on your meds and to the best of your knowledge undetectable and using condoms. Condoms broke well shit happens, theoretical risk sure probable no. Stop feeling guilty!

Also the partner is a sexually active adult and responsible for caring for themselves, they should know to be looking after themselves.

Stop stressing.

Jim

[leatherman]

Also the partner is a sexually active adult and responsible for caring for themselves, they should know to be looking after themselves.

ah! a good time to talk to this partner about whether they are using PrEP or not

btw, what is the status of this partner? Have they ever been tested?

[CaveyUK]

Yeah, as you are UD there is nothing really to stress about here.

Don't forget that the actual transmission rates for anal condomless sex, where an HIV+ top ejaculates inside a HIV- bottom AND is not undetectable, is only something like 1.43, or 1 in 70 exposures. So still an outside shot.

Being stable on treatment, and undetectable theoretically reduces that to the same risk levels as oral sex, and it's theoretical as there has never been a proven transmission in this setting, so the risk is basically zero.

Remember that TAsP (being on treatment and UD) is basically protected sex. Doubling-down with condoms is just layering on an extra level of protection.

So don't worry.

[Jim Allen]

Remember that TAsP (being on treatment and UD) is basically protected sex.

The rest of the posts are great points however this is just cutting the corner just a bit too much and I can't ignore it. Its not going to be a popular post either but needed.

Lets be clear here TaSP reduces HIV transmission risks and UD even further however there are risks and also there are risks of other STI's. This message is about as bad as the people who promote the idea of "safe sex" as there is no such thing, there is safer sex, not safe sex.

I am personally fine with 'HIV Undetectable' = 'HIV Untransmittable' however it does have criteria and limitations.

"protected" or "basically protected" no way and I say this for the many 1000's of viewers next to the OP to be clear UD does not equal protected intercourse. We should not confuse this message, its not protected not in the slightest, and for any viewers who happen to be in a heterosexual relationship there is also the risk of pregnancy to be worried about.   

Last thing i want is someone thinking its protected or safe sex, no such thing and than ending up naming their syphilis infection, lifelong herpes, or antibiotic resistant clap or some other bug they caught after us or worse naming a kid after us. 

Jim

[CaveyUK]

We weren't talking about pregnancy or other STI's Jim. We were talking about HIV risk, and from an HIV perspective - TAsP *is* protected sex.

There is, for all intents and purposes, no risk of HIV transmission if UD and on treatment. Yes, there is a theoretical risk but there is for Oral sex also - which we routinely talk about in the 'Am I' section as zero risk.

Two of those conditions you mentioned also won't necessarily care if you are wearing a condom either, by the way...

To ensure there is no confusion for casual readers.....no amount of HIV meds will protect against other STI's or pregnancy. Adherent use of HIV treatment along with Undetectable status WILL protect against HIV transmission.

[Jim Allen]

I know,  still calling it protected sex is simply not on.

The OP had a condom break, in terms of HIV transmission risk is negligible if he is UD, so big relief for the OP I trust, it does not however equal "protected" sex for either partner.

Two of those conditions you mentioned also won't necessarily care if you are wearing a condom either, by the way...

I know hence its "safer" sex not safe. Condoms have shown to reduce risk herpes transmission to the area covered, its not highly effective but it has reduction, same for the other conditions mentioned. 

Anyhow we need to be clear on this, there is enough confusion about this topic in the world of HIV and sex in general to be honest without us adding or fueling it, I live in nation where large numbers of people still grow-up without safer sex or sex education.

TaSP is great for us and a huge reassurance for many. Truly its great, like in the OP's case he can reassured, however safer sex is a combination of tools and resources for good reason, and yes we do need to be clear. Using language as "protected" is simply incorrect and not going to fly.

EDIT:

Ill add we don't live in a study we live in the real world. http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=62387.0

Jim

[CaveyUK]

I suppose technically, as it is the top actually on treatment and wearing a condom, it should possibly be 'preventative' rather than 'protective' anyway

I've IM'ed you regarding that link

[Dantheman]

Thank you for the replies everyone!  I've calmed down quite a bit.

[Mightysure]

I'm glad you've calmed down Dan.  You've been undetectable for more than. 6 months so it's highly unlikely that you infected him.  Maybe he should get on PrEP.  That'll be an extra layer of protection for him. 
But you shouldn't have felt guilty even if he did become Poz because of that.  You used a condom and they break.  You did the responsible thing because my biggest concern is other STIs.  Gonorrhea isn't fun.

[Dantheman]

Hey everyone,

Just an update.  So I met up with him again this past wednesday and he was sick, which made me worry.  Condom broke the friday prior so that would only be five days.  That's not possible right? 

To make it even worse, today (Saturday - about a week since incident) he told me he's on antibiotics. 

IT CAN'T BE RIGHT?  I can't be the only exception to the research right??

I got my VL test results this past Tuesday. I'm still UD and will have been for over two years now. 

Please tell me it's just a cruel coincidence. 

[Ptrk3]

It's far, far more likely that your partner is, simply, sick--nothing to do with a potential HIV infection (from the incident you described).  It is the season of colds and flus, after all.

[Jim Allen]

Indeed agree with Patrick stop worrying and stressing about this, I know its hard but you real world have nothing much to worry about so put it out of your mind.

Condom broke, TBH even with untreated HIV it would not have been an event of such odds that you would need to loose any sleep over it, let alone now as your on treatment so (TaSP) . Anyhow antibiotics treat bacterial infections and between them and than common cold and flu's going around everyone has a bug or two.

Jim

[terrymoore]

Hi,
Somewhat related...
My spouse and i (she is neg) read this post, and with all the other news that we have read, made a big decision, and for the first time since i was diagnosed, we had unprotected sex.
I have been UD for almost 2 years, still on meds, and am monogamous (so is she).
It was an amazing sign of trust and love on her behalf (she initiated this) and i feel very grateful to be married to her.
However, no matter how much i know the science supports this, for some reason i have a feeling of guilt and maybe even dread - i worry that something may go wrong.
Words of encouragement? Perspectives? Insights?

[Dantheman]

I feel incredible guilt as well.

Not to keep repeating myself, today, I found out he has rashes. To me, it just keeps pointing to viral infection, and something very similar to HIV.  I know you can get rashes from other viral infections, but I mean, this is just so cruel if it's a coincidence.

I'm trying not to panic but I can't stop thinking about it. 

A suggestion was maybe he got it, but got it from somewhere else.  I don't really know.  I'm worried. 

I know at this point the science is sound, but I can't stop feeling the sense of guilt.

[Jim Allen]

OP:
Is this your regular partner? 

Anyhow without wanting to sound dismissive of your feelings and I do in part understand however you are starting to sound a bit like one of the "Am I infected" posters 

Look symptoms can't tell you anything, and you know that there was only negligible risk at best. If it helps reassure you than read the consensus statement again. http://www.preventionaccess.org/consensus

Condoms break, it happens, that's life, now stop feeling guilty! You took all reasonable precautions and your partner is a sexually active adult and responsible for caring for themselves, they should know to be protecting themselves and testing yearly etc etc

Jim

[Dantheman]

Hey Jim,

No he's not my partner.  And you're right, in all accounts it should be okay. I don't my irrational mind keeps thinking the worst. Thank you for sending the link.

It's mostly guilt and the sense of maybe I shouldn't have had sex, or I should've done this, don't that etc...

Thanks.

[Jim Allen]

Hi

Guilt ... for what living?

Look I do know what you mean, personally I would hate myself if i passed this on to anyone, hence all the reasonable precautions. Personally I also disclose but that's a different discussion that is not helpful.   

The story here is you can't live your life in a bubble, you can take reasonable steps and you did that, the guy in question obviously is not living life in a bubble either. I am not pointing blame but the truth is he is a sexual active adult and with that comes with risks of STI's. He consented to sex before meeting you and trust me will do so again after you parted ways, that's life.

Again you are following TaSP so only negligible risk at best, and used condoms it broke can happen, you have nothing really to worry about in terms of HIV transmission.

Jim

[CaveyUK]

'Symptoms' are the single most meaningless thing when it comes to HIV. Some get the full gamut of viral symptoms, others get nothing. And when I say 'viral' I mean - they can manifest with a wide range of conditions.

OP - quit worrying

[metekrop]

Hi,

I know there's a few threads out there, but I'm having a mild panic attack.  I slept with someone and I topped him.  I believe the condom broke between 0 - 5 minutes in which I found out when I pulled out.  I'm scared that I infected him.  I've been undetectable for over two years (undetectable one month after treatment, found out month after infection) What is the risk?  Are there any updates on the study?  I feel like I can't live with myself if I did this to someone. 

thanks.

It is also my understanding that you don't have to worry about at all.  You just have to remember the poster in this forum who was telling his story that he had a child, I think two times, with his wife who is Negative.  So, therefore, so long as you are Undetectable and taking your med faithfully, you won’t have any problem of transmitting the virus to you friend whether the condom is broken or any other way.

[Dantheman]

Thank you everyone for your advice and knowledge.