Oral on a women and HIV risk

[worried_to]

Late March (day 0) I performed oral sex on a women (cunnilingus) and tasted a fair amount of her fluids. We had protected sex afterwards (condom) and after finishing I checked to see if my liquids were leaking and it appeared that they were not. Based off of that test I concluded that the condom did not break and covered the head of my penis for the entire duration of intercourse (I dont recall it coming off) - I am an uncircumsized man. 2-3 days later I felt as if there was a foreign object on my tonsils. I looked in the mirror and I saw that my tonsils were covered in white pustules (no sore throat yet)- not ones you could flake off - perhaps sores or pustules of the tissue itself. I went on a business trip there after for 5 days so I didnt get a chance to visit a doctor.

9 Days after the incident I visited my home doctor (sore throat began around this time). He said my lymph nodes in the neck were swollen (I was complaining about tenderness there as well) and saw that my tonsils were inflamed in addition to fluid behind the ear. He did a throat swab for strep (came back negative). 2 days after that (12 days after incident) I noticed that the white pustules were gone but my neck was tender (felt as if I had blown up many birthday balloons) and when I swallowed I could hear crackling in my ears. The swollen nodes/tenderness lasted for a few more days (so over a week for sure in total). I went to see another doctor and this time she tested for Chlamydia and Gonorrhea (both came back negative). At the same time my muscles in my thighs (mainly left thigh), calf (left), and both sides of the hip started to ache. Some days I had to take motrin pain killers to get thru the pain. I also notice muscle twitching that is going on constantly in those muscles. Today its been 3 weeks and 1 day since the incident and my ears still crackle and leg muscles still ache and twitch (sore throat appears to be gone - slight tenderness but mainly gone). I know symptoms are never a good indicator to assess risk for HIV but these are fairly consistent with ARS.

Please help shed light on my situation as I am very worried. I also would like to indicate that my tonsils on a regular day are larger than most peoples so I know that might increase my risk of HIV given that the tonsils are known to have cells that HIV can bind to. Many thanks to all of you. Kind Regards.

[worried_to]

Forgot to add that I've been very constipated through this time, my stomach has been making a tonne of noise, and I get reflex in my throat (GERD). I was diagnosed with GERD last year but mainly went away. However it has come on full force along with the constipation and stomach noises about a week after the unprotected oral incident. Still happening now.

[Ann]

Worried,

If you know you're beating a horse, why post?

You didn't have a risk.

See your doctor about your throat - the cause is not hiv as you didn't have a risk.

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL sexually transmitted infections together. To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Have a look through all three condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

ALTHOUGH YOU DO NOT NEED TO TEST OVER THE SPECIFIC INCIDENT YOU BRING TO US, anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results. Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!

Ann

[worried_to]

Hi Ann, Thank you for the feedback. However, all of a sudden I am experiencing these symptoms. I.e. before the exposure I had none. First the white patches on the tonsils (2 days after incident), sore throat and swollen neck glands there after, crackling ears when you swallow, and a week  or so later muscle pains in the highs and around the hips + GERD and stomach noises (like as if there is a party going on down there), not to mention very dry mouth. I am 3 weeks post event now. What gives all of a sudden - the only thing inserted into this equation is the unprotected oral on a women - unless there was a slight slip up with the condom that I do not recall i.e. vaginal fluids on my hands when I put the condom on and might have touched the hole of my penis or the foreskin (since I am not circumsized). Would that handling the condom in that fashion lead to infection?

[Ann]

worried,

Going down on a woman is NOT a risk for hiv infection. However, it IS a risk for things like herpes, syphilis, gonorrhea and chlamydia. Go see your doctor.

Ann

[worried_to]

Was tested negative for Chlamydia and Gonorrhea (negative for both). Will follow-up with others tomorrow. Can you or someone also clarify what they mean when they say ARS symptoms come all at once and not succession. When they say succession does it mean symptom1 starts say 1 week before symptom2 or does it mean symptom1 occurs then goes away and then symptom2 occurs.

[worried_to]

In the former case both symptoms do occur at the same time except that one started before the other.

[Ann]

worried,

Symptoms, if they come at all, come all at once.

But why are you worrying about that when you didn't have a risk for hiv infection in the first place?

Please read the Welcome Thread - and the Transmission Lesson linked there -  and take note of posting guidelines that say you won't be allowed to endlessly post about a no risk situation.

You didn't have a risk.

Ann

[worried_to]

Thank you ann. I am trying to put this behind me. Today I started taking Effexor for my anxiety - the doctor think that my mind is causing the additional symptoms (apart from the throat - which he attributes it to your garden variety viral sore throat). He does not think I need an HIV test though he ordered a full STD panel - actually he recommends against HIV testing because he knows my anxiety level and doesnt think my risk factors warrant one. I've learned my lession in this episode. I'm sticking with one and only one women for the rest of my life (that being my girl friend soon to be fiance). I was so scared that I had ruined everything. Knock on wood for me folks that I havent.

THank you very much.

[worried_to]

Back again. I feel like the person who no one can help because everything thinks I have zero exposure. I wake up every morning and my throat is on fire and its so dry. Also have a LOT of post nasal drip that causes irritation. Was wondering if anyone who actually had ARS could possibly get post nasal drip because my doc thinks it was caused by the viral throat I had. Also if anyone who has HIV can comment on whether SSRI (antidepressents) are sometimes prescribed to alleviate muscle aches to hiv positive persons (I have read that they are since they help reduce the nerve firing). So far my muscle aches are still present. I first reported that I had muscle pain April 7th.

[RapidRod]

As you've been told you didn't have a risk and that makes all your other questions mute. For your information everyone that answers questions are positive folks.

[worried_to]

I hear you RapidRod but isnt it the case that most couples where one female is HIV+ and the other party negative a case where the viral load is under control which would minimize the likelihood of transmission. But what about a case when you dont know the status of the other person and when they dont know themselves. The viral load could be likely very high - especially if the one person was infected recently. Any thoughts on this? Thank you in kind.

[Ann]

worried,

Hiv transmission doesn't stand a chance of happening via female genitals to mouth - there are just too many obstacles on the oral route.

The first obstacle is the mouth itself. The mouth is a veritable fortress, standing against all sorts of pathogens we come into contact with every minute of our lives. It's a very hostile environment and saliva has been shown to contain over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that damage hiv.

Hiv is a very fragile virus - literally. Its outer surface doesn't take kindly to changes in its preferred environment; slight changes in temperature, moisture content and pH levels all damage the outer surface. Importantly, it needs this outer surface to be intact before it can latch onto a few, very specific cell types and infect. 

Which leads to the second obstacle. Hiv can only latch onto certain types of cells, cells which are not found in abundance in the mouth.

The third obstacle to transmission this way is having hiv present in the first place. The female secretion where hiv has been shown to be present is the cervicovaginal fluid. This fluid is actually a thick mucus that covers and protects the cervix.

The fluid a woman produces when sexually excited comes from the Bartholin's glands, located on either side of the vaginal opening. I have yet to discover one shred of evidence (and believe me, I've looked) that shows this lubricating fluid to have any more hiv present than other bodily secretions such as saliva, sweat or tears. Saliva, sweat and tears are NOT infectious fluids.

So there you have it. Once the results of the serodiscordant studies started rolling in, what we know about hiv transmission on the cellular level was validated. The only people who were getting infected were those who had unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse. Period. One of the three studies went on for ten years and involved hundreds of couples. That's a lot of nookie.

And by the way, just because a person is hiv positive does not mean they are on meds and undetectable. There were med-free positive people in the serodiscordant studies. I've been poz for eleven years now, still no meds. My (ex) partner and I used to engage in oral regularly yet he remained negative for the eight years we were together.

You're worrying needlessly. You did not have a risk.

Ann

[worried_to]

I see what you are saying. But why is my mouth on fire and unreal muscle aches - all after the episode? Is it possible to catch HSV1/2 from cunnilingus? Or another STD and in that case make it more efficient to catch HIV? Thank you.

[Ann]

Worried,

Yes, you can get herpes from oral.

If you're worried about the fire in your mouth or muscle aches, you'll have to see your doctor to find out what is going on. All we can tell you is you didn't have a risk for hiv.

Please re-read your entire thread before asking more questions.

Ann

[worried_to]

I appreciate the response. Isnt it possible that if she had herpes she could shed more HIV? I am going totally nuts cause the symptoms wont stop. I apologize for posting but you folks are the only folks that give me some comfort and insight.  I have talked to the girl and she obviously claims she is negative and says she was tested in mid january and was negative for stds and hiv. Says she has had protected sex since (not sure how many partners) but unprotected oral on a male whom she says she tested negative for stds and hiv also in january. She didnt give me oral so I dont know what that means - maybe she didnt know my status and was being careful??? who knows I can speculate all night long but the bottom line is you assume the worst (i.e. dont trust what she says because you have to look after yourself. I'm the idiot for putting myself in this position to begin with).

[Andy Velez]

Whatever the partner in question has to say about her status is totally irrelevant and you have no business pursuing her about your concerns. Understandable that you want reassurance but you need to get into the proper mode which is that YOU are responsible for your own health.

You've been quite clearly and repeatedly told you had no risk for HIV in this incident. Any symptoms you are concerned about ought to discussed with your doctor. You are worrying needlessly about HIV. Period. End of story.

[Ann]

worried,

I'll say it one more time - you weren't at risk for hiv infection. If there were qualifying factors to that statement, we would have told you.

You cannot know the state of your own sexual health status going by what a sexual partner has told you about their own history. If you have doubts about your health, see your doctor.

As I said, all we can tell you here is that you have not had a risk for hiv infection in the situation you brought to us.

If you're read the Welcome Thread like you're supposed to, you will have read the following posting guideline:

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

Please consider yourself warned.

There's nothing more we can tell you. Re-read your thread.

Ann

[worried_to]

I tested at 6 weeks and 1 day rapid test (INSTI rapid) and it was negative. Should I take this and run? Is this a good indicator of what I would expect at 12 weeks? My symptoms havent really disappeared yet. I am glad that I tested negative at the 6 week mark but everyone is different..i.e. the tinglings (and crawling type sensations) and muscle twitches and muscle pain remain. The muscle pain is less now and so Im not sure if I had a long ARS (and its slowly riding to and end) and hence take longer than the 6 week period (even though most agencies will go by the 3 month mark for conclusive). Appreciate some feedback please on my situation and window period.

[RapidRod]

What part of "You didn't  have a risk" is it that you don't understand? What part of the "Warning" Ann gave you that you don't understand? You need to get with the program.

[worried_to]

Rapid I know what you are saying but my body tells me otherwise. I had a 7 week negative test now BUT I have read on this forum that a male had acquired HIV through giving a blow job to another man and he said he tested multiple times negative and only at 8 weeks was he positive. He mentions that his doctor said it took him so long to seroconvert because of the route of the transmission. I.e. not a lot of virus was acquired through the oral route as oppose to vaginal/anal or blood transfusion. I have also read papers that talk about the time period to aids and its relation to the initial route of transmission. It stated that those that acquired a lot of virus had a higher chance of progressing to aides i.e. blood transfusions. This is why I am freaking out. 7 week negative, crazy symptoms that I've never had before (i still have GI symptoms at 7 weeks post event - bloating, diarreah, gas, muscle ache in legs), and I'm wondering if there is a relation between the amount of virus acquired and time to seroconversion. Appreciate the help. I know i can be a pain in the neck but I really dont know what id do without all of you for support. Thank you very much.

[RapidRod]

That's what happens when someone goes out and reads other forums. You were never at risk.

[Andy Velez]

Your body, your shmody. You're self-diagnosing without a shred of credibility in HIV science. Whatever is going on with you symptomatically has nothing to do with HIV. As you have been told repeatedly and your negative test result confirmed.

Talk to your doctor about your symptoms. This is not an HIV situation. Period. End of story.

[worried_to]

I realize what you are saying. All of you are of the view that oral carries no risk. But there are many people in this forum who claim to have contracted via oral and this particular individual's case serconversion time was slow because of that (as he says). You guys have stated that my situation was a non hiv event. Okay if I accept that for the moment and speak about this question outside the realm of that what are your thoughts on amount of virus transmitted and time to seroconversion. Does it matter? Or is the HIV virus replication that fast that it doesnt matter? or does it?

[Ann]

Worried,

Are you trying to tell us you gave a woman a blowjob? Because unless that's what you're saying, you're comparing apples to bananas. Going down on a woman and giving a blowjob are two totally different kettles of ... er ... fish.

You did not have a risk for hiv infection. We'd tell you if you did. If you cannot get over your unnecessary fear, then maybe it's time for some counseling. We cannot help you with that here.

The average time to seroconversion is 22 days, regardless of the mode of transmission. The vast majority of people who have actually been infected will seroconvert and test positive by six weeks, again regardless of the mode of transmission.

I warned you back in reply 17 about going on and on about your no-risk event. I'm giving you that time out I warned you about. Do not attempt to create a new account to get around your time out because if you do, you will be permanently banned.

Ann