POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: pozattitude on August 22, 2007, 12:38:00 pm
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AIDS is almost 30yrs old now and the face of the pandemic is completely different from what those who were born before the mid 1970's remember.
The September issue of POZ has caused a much heated discussion in the forums and I just can't help but wonder; Is it possible that we are so worked up about this because of a generation gap?
I came of age at a time when AIDS was a death sentence for most. I remember the AIDS isolation wards in the hospitals, I remember going to funerals more than going to birthdays. The face of AIDS was something out of a horror movie when it first appear in the early 80's.
Today AIDS is not a death sentence, people are more educated about, and we live longer healthier lives. The face of AIDS has been replaced with the images of beautiful people having a good time . So what is wrong with this picture?
We failed, that is what is wrong. We failed to educate the younger generations. We have become complacent, we worked so hard to get rid of the stigma, HIV/AIDS got a pretty face and a nice body with the antiviral drugs and consequently the idea that HIV is not a big deal was born in the minds of the younger generation.
I am not upset that POZ chose a typical 19yr old South Beach mentality kid for it's cover. I am upset that I've realized that this new generation doesn't know anything about HIV/AIDS.
Rich
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& who's fault is it that the younger ones are so uneducated about hiv/aids? THEY ARE because they don't pay attention to the public service ads on television & think that they are young and invincible & that AIDS won't happen to them. You can't force people to have safe sex, but you can provide them with the information to make the right decision. If they don't heed the warnings then it's their own fault for becoming HIV+.
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I agree with your post here. I somehow feel stuck in the middle because of my age at 37yo, but then again, I have had the virus since '93. In '88 when my late husband was diagnosed, he didn't think he was invincible, he gave up on the battle against the virus. Not much was done back then to educate people because of the harsh stigma, in my opinion.
The stigma, I feel, still exists today, but younger people DO have more resources and MEDS to help them deal with this virus. Its a double-edged sword.
I remember in '96, after I had recently become widowed, I was talking with my GYN about the virus. Her husband was a researcher in the AIDS/HIV field at the time. I said to my GYN, "I fear what will be happening ten years from now in 2006 or so. So many young people (teens) are running around (in the mid '90s) thinking that they are invincible, and they are further spreading this virus." I wished that there was more in-your-face education then and NOW, but the Nation seems to have sweeped us under the mat, so to speak. Sure, we have meds today, but we still have a huge problem.
I can't help but feel that because of lack of education, we are still seeing so many young people with the virus today.....We are not invincible, but we can certainly put up a fight.
You are right, the younger generation is misled, and those that are new to this virus sometimes don't have a clue. I am curious as to how "follow-up" stories in five years would read.....
~Cindy
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Hey Poz,
Thank you for starting up a constructive discussion. That last mob mentality situation I just read through really put me off!
I think there are some valid concerns, reasons, and issues for this. I don't proclaim to know them all.
I am somewhere in between I guess because I'm neither a teenager and I didn't have to deal with this in the early 80's either Thank God!
I'm wondering if we could list some pros and cons of being diagnosed back then and now? Of course I realize that those of us recently infected have a whole different experience than those who've been struggling for 20 years or more.
One thing I have noticed as a negative effect of being diagnosed now is that you're right, the magazine ads for drugs seem to almost glamorize HIV. This is a huge problem and ads to ignorance.
It seems that some folks diagnosed years back have more of a sense of camaraderie because they had to stick together maybe?
Personally, I've got friends ranging from newly diagnosed to some having had it well over 20 years and as I've said before I don't base my opinion on how long someone has lived with a virus, but how they've handled the situation and managed to make the most out of life. Life's short, and I don't have time for those who will try to tear me down or drag me into their misery. It's not a lack of compassion or sympathy - but you've got to look for what you want out of life.
I think the generation gap can be overcome, but all sides need to be willing to listen, not attack each other. I mean really what does that accomplish?
For me personally, I don't feel HIV is the worst thing that could have happened to me and I have learned to put it into perspective. HIV is not the only bad thing which has ever happened in my life. Yeah, it sucks, but it's not the end of the world. I've got an optimistic outlook and I believe that was instilled by my parents, both have has serious health issues.
I tend to think that the stigma is alive and well. It's how you deal with it. My philosophy in life is simple: If you don't like something in your life, you've got 2 options. Learn to live with it or change it. I'm not happy all the time, but I refuse to give up and become a martyre for life whether it was HIV, sexual abuse, self abuse or whatever life has tossed my way.
Anyways, hopefully we can have a rational thread that will lead to something constructive. Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I think it's possible.
Peace!
Wesley
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You know what would be a good idea?
An advertising campaign such as the TRUTH one for cigarettes.
One that takes what the everyday person knows (or thinks he/she knows) about HIV followed by some info that you don't typically hear.
One of the best ad campaigns I've seen was called "Scene / Unseen". It featured a pic on the left ("Scene") that had a glamorous club kid out partying and dancing. On the right was the photo for "Unseen": the same guy laid out on a hospital bed with tubes stuck in his arms and such. I thought it was fantastic. I don't know why we didn't see more of that campaign.
I'd recommend a similar approach to the TRUTH campaign for the lowdown on HIV these days. Maybe like...
"You used to spend your weekends at the clubs. Now you spend them here."
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I don't agree that the education is all that good. Sure, use a condom or abstain. A condom for oral sex? Please! A partial education is not a whole lot better than no education in some ways. It leaves one to make poor decisions based on incorrect assumptions. We have failed in terms of educating others about HIV / AIDS. 'We' is society as a whole.
I'm more in tune to what little education is out there now since I've been diagnosed, but then a chef will notice things that an average cook will not. I sure as hell didn't see much of it pre-diagnosis, just the extreme basics. Ask somebody who has highschool kids about how much education they have on safer sex - how to apply a condom properly, risks of oral sex, how becoming pregnant isn't the worst thing that can happen to them, etc. Ask them where they can get condoms without feeling uncomfortable. Better yet, ask the kids themselves if possible.
David
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AIDS remember me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_9RyAxFgFk
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You know for the life of me I don't see the pervasive doom and gloom agenda of the LTS that others do. I've seen many a newcomer meltdown over the insignificant, only to be talked down off their ledge by a patient LTS offering support and guidance that comes from the heart and experience. I know of no LTS, not one, who isn't thrilled that the newly infected might live a bright future. Yet a little sad that with all the knowledge at their disposal they still managed to find a way to become infected. And it is always confirmed when I hear someone say HIV is not a big deal to me, that the schools and the media and their parents and the government and society as a whole has done a terrible disservice to people.
The majority of us got here because we were selfish and indulgent of ourselves, and the recent Poz Magazine article points that out so very well. HIV infection isn't going to change that attitude. Maturity and experience might, and years from now when the Wesley's and the Jessie's and the Jamie's are the LTS of the group they just might understand where we are coming from. Doom and gloom not on your best day. Read any post by Christine and then you'll see and hopefully learn what character really is. She'll never make it on the cover of a magazine and she doesn't need to.
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This may already have been stated, but I think it is more than a generation gap in age - it is also one of date of diagnosis.
In general there seems to be a sense by the more recently diagnosed (of all ages) that life with HIV is something that science has pretty much figured out how to deal with and any side effects (from the disease or meds) are really things of those who were diagnosed long ago.
While it would be incredulous to deny that the treatment options of today and those in the pipeline make life with HIV significantly more livable than yesterday - it does shock me how many feel that there is a clear divide between what was and what is.
What I think is missing from many discussions is the understanding that the experiences of the LTS, while may not be exactly what the newbies will go through - are more relevant than just fodder for the history books.
To me the biggest dividing issue is how the two sides view each others daily reality. Many LTS see the optimistic view of some of the newbies as being too rose colored glasses and ignorant of certain truths about the long term effects of both meds and the virus itself, while many of the newly infected see the LTS experiences and realities as being miserable or dwelling in their HIV status and refusing to accept the advances in treatment options.
I don't know how or if we can ever actually change those views to be honest. I think they are a given to a degree and always will be - sort of the the grass is always greener mentality in reverse.
What I do think is key is that we all learn to stay more in the first person than the absolute when it comes to experiences and that we all do our part to educate ourselves on the truth and science of our virus and not just rely on drug ads or glossy spreads in magazines.
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Social Pressure, Not Health Warnings Influence Sexual Behavior
http://www.livescience.com/health/061102_social_behaviors.html
Seven Themes
-Young people assess potential sexual partners as "clean" or unclean."
-Sexual partners have an important influence on behavior in general.
-Condoms are stigmatizing and associated with lack of trust.
-Gender stereotypes are crucial in determining social expectations and, in turn, behavior.
-There are penalties and rewards for sex from society.
-Reputations and social displays of sexual activity or inactivity are important.
-Social expectations hamper communication about sex.
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The stigma, I feel, still exists today, but younger people DO have more resources and MEDS to help them deal with this virus. Its a double-edged sword.
So true and it's so hard to channel the message in a way to make this clear. Until the government starts investing at home with real money on prevention (not these abstinence bullshit programs), the most effective messages won't get out there. I'm hopeful in general but, in terms of prevention, I'm really not because I see such a lack of smart education programs and proper funding that generations to come will no doubt be hurt.
Edited to add I want to second most of what Iggy said. Hit the nail on th head IMHO and, as he stated, I also "don't know how or if we can ever actually change those views" or reach a bridge. I'm not optimistic at all when it comes to this area.
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Better yet, ask the kids themselves if possible.
Ya, and ask any of the LGBT kids if LGBT sex is even mentioned (even a little!) in biology class, or are they left to figure it out on the streets? >:( ...... In the mid 80's I remember the biology teacher saying "condoms can also be used by men who have sex with other men." Wow, I was floored and I wanted more. Of course I never got more. Don't know if the high schools of today are any better. :-[
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In the early 1980's AIDS was known as GRID--Gay Related Immune Disorder. Although the cause of this disease hadn't yet become clear, it seemed that almost everyone coming down with it was gay. Anyone with any sense should have realized that this was a sexually transmitted disease. Yet efforts to close down the bathhouses in San Francisco were strongly opposed by many in the gay community, who felt that it was merely an attempt to demonize gay sex.
I think many lives could have been saved if the gay community had been less paranoid and more responsive to the health crisis that was emerging.
It was only when I started seeing friends die and full pages of obituaries in the Bay Area Reporter (a gay San Francisco newspaper) that the seriousness of this disease finally began to sink in.
Allan
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I find this interesting, this focus on youth, risk etc, when in the US (and UK), 70% of new HIV diagnoses are made in people aged between 25 and 49, mostly people in their 30s and 40s.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2005report/table1.htm
This makes me think how tough it must be to be one of the 10% diagnosed aged 20-25 or the handful of people diagnosed earlier.
- matt
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I am a baby-boomer and have three 25 year olds. While they do understand the prevention message, I still believe that there has been a bit of a disconnect over the last five, to ten years. There have been great strides in the meds that are available, faster (and more reliable) testing methods. The newer yuppies can likely chalk up their cavalier, gotta have it now,it's all good, thought processes to us boomers, who set the standard.
There are a few prevention messages on television, but they barely skim the surface of the seriousness of the situation.
The educators in the U.S. have had their hands tied, and their lips taped by the government, and cannot even broach the subject of safer sex, because it does no follow the "abstinence only" allowable teaching materials.
I feel we probably have no one to blame but ourselves. I still have a few hazy memories of my twenties/thirties, and the whole "I am invincible" attitude I certainly had, and I had been through nursing school.
I tend to not offer the ugly truth unless it is asked. I think many of the younger, or newly diagnosed often will turn you off fairly quickly. Thusly, they will proceed at their own peril, until they become really ill, or gain more maturity, whichever comes first.
I still see posts by people who think they can stave off this virus by simply taking some HIV medicine before going out to the bar, or hooking up with someone.
Then of course, there are the people who find a denialist that will lead them down the primrose path.
I like the idea Timmy mentioned about the PSA's, but it likely won't happen much more until the current president is gone.
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hi everyone
while i mainly agree with all that is expressed in this thread i have to say that generally on these forums i find myself agreeing more with the view of the LTS' than 'optimistic newbies', and i think that the opinions i post bear this out. BUT i am only 2 and a bit years since seroconversion and diagnosis so if you go by the 'generation gap' theory how do you figure that out?
it's funny but i have found the forums recently to be extremely thought-provoking and was actually discussing something very similar yesterday with 3 other pozzies over a drink or 5:
me, hetero female, 30, 2 years in, not on meds, in fairly good health;
one gay male, early 40s, LTS, on meds, been out of work for many years due to illness;
one gay male, early 40s, infected thru rape, MTS, on meds, has experienced OIs;
one gay male, early 40s, roughly 2 years in, on meds but in good health
... and we all felt the same - that there are far too many people out there who think that having hiv and taking meds is just the same as having a cold and popping a cold cure. this we need to change.
it seemed to us that in the years since meds became available some people have listened far too much to the 'manageable chronic condition' positive thinking message, to the extent that some people actually think that it is not such a big/bad thing to have this virus inside them. obviously it's a good thing to be positive in your outlook and fight the virus, but surely we should not be underestimating our enemy?
but is this such a new thing? if you look back at the variety of people and experiences over the last 25-30 years of this virus i think you'll find that denial has always been a part of the spectrum, and that never has there ever been a true consensus of people with hiv/aids about this disease. even in the days before meds there were still people who refused to believe the seriousness of the situation, and still now you have people who believe hiv and aids are not linked, or that there is a cure currently available.
so upon reflection i wonder if actually we are all forgetting 2 things:
1. everyone is different in both their experiences and their opinions
2. back in the 80s and the 90s there was probably still this division of opinion (and to a lesser extent of experience). i cant say i was involved in the poz scene during these times, but i know people who were and have read a lot by people who were, and their opinions were/are by no means all the same
so, what im really trying to say is that i think that it is oversimplifying things to say that there is a generation gap, as i know that myself and many others i know have more views shared with the LTS than with others more recently diagnosed...maybe it's just differences of opinions, beliefs and coping mechanisms. i believe that education and understanding is the key, but that we will never all entirely see eye to eye on this or anything else.
all i really hope is that if it turns out that some of us are right and some wrong, none of us will say 'told you so' and we'll all still be there for each other.
love to everyone
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I find this interesting, this focus on youth, risk etc, when in the US (and UK), 70% of new HIV diagnoses are made in people aged between 25 and 49, mostly people in their 30s and 40s.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2005report/table1.htm
This makes me think how tough it must be to be one of the 10% diagnosed aged 20-25 or the handful of people diagnosed earlier.
Do you think this is because the "youth" aren't getting tested? Perhaps because they don't feel ill and haven't had trouble being newly infected, they don't even KNOW they're carrying the virus? How many people find out 5 - 10 years down the road that they are pos, AFTER going to the hospital with a life-threatening OI?
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I havent read everyones comments on this thread yet but i will post my opinion....
Honestly when i was 18,19,20,21 I did think i was invincible. Stupid? Yes....but this tends to be a trend for anyone in that age group i think. The truth is that when your a rebelious teen it FACTS don't matter, and you live in your own little bubble. I am now 23 and have matured quite a bit since I was 18 but i know that it doesnt matter how much i knew, how educated i was (because i did know the facts) i didnt think it would happen to me....
I had unprotected sex often from 18-20 and did get tested regularly, each time coming back negative, reinforcing my "invincibility" complex, of course the drugs didnt help either....I didnt really give up on the battle because you cant give up in something if you never tried to begin with...
The education was there, i knew the facts, i ignored them....Its a phase that many teenagers go through and no matter how much you send the message some are just STUBBORN (like me)...
I still think that education is neccesary to try to save less stuborn teenagers from getting infected, but those of us who already are infected need to have a positive outlook, take care of ourselves, take meds when necessary, but not treat it like its the end of the world (because it isnt)....Most of the young people who are infected and trying to succeed have their whole life ahead of them and dont want to become depressed because they think "oh i might die young?" this is true but we might not also.....Dealing with school and work is hard enough, so i think that since being diagnosed today isnt the same as it was 15 years ago, we need to encourage people that its going to be OK
-josh
(who understands why their are different viewpoints but believes in evolution *sort of*)
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This may already have been stated, but I think it is more than a generation gap in age - it is also one of date of diagnosis.
I agree
Many LTS see the optimistic view of some of the newbies as being too rose colored glasses and ignorant of certain truths about the long term effects of both meds and the virus itself
I like rose colored glasses....actually for a newly diagnosed healthy hiv+ person i dont really see the point about worrying now about what may or maynot be a problem for me in the future, because i cannot control it anyways....
I think its better to prepare yourself for any circumstances but worrying about what might happen is a waste of energy
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You know for the life of me I don't see the pervasive doom and gloom agenda of the LTS that others do. I've seen many a newcomer meltdown over the insignificant, only to be talked down off their ledge by a patient LTS offering support and guidance that comes from the heart and experience. I know of no LTS, not one, who isn't thrilled that the newly infected might live a bright future. Yet a little sad that with all the knowledge at their disposal they still managed to find a way to become infected. And it is always confirmed when I hear someone say HIV is not a big deal to me, that the schools and the media and their parents and the government and society as a whole has done a terrible disservice to people.
The majority of us got here because we were selfish and indulgent of ourselves, and the recent Poz Magazine article points that out so very well. HIV infection isn't going to change that attitude. Maturity and experience might, and years from now when the Wesley's and the Jessie's and the Jamie's are the LTS of the group they just might understand where we are coming from. Doom and gloom not on your best day. Read any post by Christine and then you'll see and hopefully learn what character really is. She'll never make it on the cover of a magazine and she doesn't need to.
I'm ever so thrilled to be recognized by you DashedHopes. If you expect respect and compasion then you should treat others the same way. I was frankly appauled by the way you attacked one recent person in the I Just Tested Positive section. Way to throw out the welcome mat! If this is what being a long time survivor is all about then count me out of your dismal world!
Ugh!
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Name calling, Wesley? Really?
I didn't see anything offensive in Dachshund's post.
And for the life of me, I can't figure out what the hell you are still doing here- since you've stated so many times how awful you think this place is...AIDSMESS, wasn't it?
PS: And as is your typical fashion, you post your barb and sign off. Classy.
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Wes..
did the hiv2aids site fold....???
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I feel like adding something more to this discussion.
I think that one of the issue why we are still so affected by HIV, is because many gays (prehaps more younger than elders), still feel problem with sexuality. If your sexual option is not recognized, and is socially marginalized, and has no rights, then you do not think in settling down. And then monogamous relationships are more difficult to achieve. If you wouldn't have to hide because you are gay, I think that many places like dark rooms, etc, would not have a reason to exist.
Now, I have nothing against dark-room, and sex places. But I always wonder why are there no sex-clubs for straights? Perhaps because you can date have multiple heterosexual relationships (and everyone assumes you will have sex), and nothing happens from a cultural perspective? I could say that gays tend to have more sexual partners and perhaps more casual sex encounters that straights.
Alex
[Edited to add that I am Gay and I love Cher]
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I'd hate to think that anyone ever thought that taking meds was easy. HIV was and still is incurable. Whether newbie or LTS almost all of us will have or will suffer life threatening/life changing experiences with the virus and its sad theres this 'divide'. I could put the cat amongst the pigeons here and say there are many other divides within the community but I'm not going to hijack! I have gained great comfort and wisdom from many here who are long term survivors. Those who have been before us and literally died for us deserve respect and to be remembered, and those who have been through hell getting treatment as it evolves deserve the same. I think in some ways its as in life...after all how many of us can say we listened to people who knew better and could help?
I agree with a lot of Iggys points, and with others who say that the education system is still letting people down BUT if people wont take in the message or if we are so vilified by society that is difficult for us to talk freely and thus educate others, I think theres a way to go yet.
Yes, in some ways things are better, but the day I can stand on the street,collecting for an HIV related charity and be able to share my status without fear of recrimination...THATS when education has been successful
Just my two pennies worth ;D
And hey AWes, what happened to world domination? ;) Good to see your'e ok
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And latin....sweeping generalisations re gays methinks and THERE ARE sex clubs for straights!
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I had unprotected sex often from 18-20 and did get tested regularly, each time coming back negative, reinforcing my "invincibility" complex
A major reason as why i'm positive. The more negative tests I got the more convinced I was that I had to be immune, and the more I barebacked. How many times I said to the nurse "doesn't make any sense, I should be positive, maybe I should be studied?" ::)
I guess at that point the nurse should have given me a serious warning, but they never did.
Milker.
PS: my question to the nurse had nothing to do with me being a bug chaser, just in case someone wondered. It had to do with the fact that I knew I had sex with people that turned out to be HIV positive, so statistically it made no sense that I was still negative. Until that day.
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It can't all be about a generation gap as I'm 35 and aware of how things were, how things are and how so much has changed as well as how so much has not changed.
I serocoverted in 1999 though didn't receive my diagnosis until 2002. After my diagnosis I went through several years of wanting/needing to believe what the doctors were telling me, which in effect was that HIV is now a manageable chronic disease. At the time I believe it was clinging onto their words that stopped me washing down a bottle of painkillers with a bottle of vodka.
At some point and for a while I started wandering down the route of the dissidents/denialists avenues. I joined certain websites, purchased certain books and DVDs and for some time believed that HIV didn't cause AIDS and that people were simply being brainwashed into believing it did. I still keep an open mind to possibilities but I'm no longer ignorant or gullible.
After joining Aidsmeds and sitting back a little watching people and their lives, their truths unfold, after conversing and actually making friends with members such as Ann, Matty, Jonathan, Moffie, Penguin, Christine, Alanbama, DanielMark and many others, I finally let the whole truth sink in of what HIV/AIDS actually is for them and what it could be for me one day.
I still say 'could be for me' and not 'would be for me' as I don't have a crystal ball, therefore cannot foretell how my disease will pan out. If I think too long about it, it still terrifies me. Especially when I watch people I love struggling to cope with how their disease has panned out for them.
I don't think I exaggerate when I say that as well as opening my eyes to the truth, the people I mentioned above (and others) and their life stories have more than likely, in the long run, saved my life or at the very least helped prolong it.
After almost 5 challenging years of getting my head around my diagnosis (as well as how I was infected) I now refuse to allow myself to close my mind to the possibilities of how my life with HIV will pan out - as bitter a pill as it may be to swallow and as terrified as it may make me feel sometimes.
I do believe the message that HIV does not discriminate is NOT getting out there or, if it is, it simply is not getting out there enough. As a heterosexual woman I believe that, for the main part, the heterosexual community is still ignorant and complacent about how 'at risk' they actually are. To be honest, the only reason I knew I was negative when entering the relationship where I actually seroconverted was through a mandatory HIV test I took by default as part of a medical study I participated in prior to that relationship.
I also believe people are being misinformed - for whatever reasons that may be - about how serious and debilitating a disease HIV/AIDS still remains - in spite of and often because of the advances being made in HIV meds.
I agree that WE as a whole society have failed and are still failing to get those important messages out there. If we hadn't failed/are not failing, so many young people wouldn't still be being diagnosed positive and so many wouldn't be being hoodwinked into believing that nowadays HIV/AIDS is simply a manageable chronic disease.
As long as HIV/AIDS continues to be ignored/scorned/glossed over/glammed up by the negative community and/or, even worse, by the positive community, then we (the positive community) will continue to be fighting a losing battle.
Also, as a teacher, I know that learning only comes with a willingness to learn.
Melia
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I'm ever so thrilled to be recognized by you DashedHopes.
Wesley
I see no reason for name calling, it's very childish and serves no purpose, except to antagonize others, and this we can do without.
Thank you
Jan
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I'm not sure that the failure is in education. Here is my story. I tested poz at 41. I knew that HIV was not "easy" or a "walk in the park". I worked for a large HMO in Boston in the 90's and was responsible for reporting all HIV antibody tests and viral loads (back when "undetectable" meant less than 10,000). In the late 90's I earned my Master's in Public Health, with an Epidemiology concentration. I wrote a number of papers on HIV. I made it through the 80's and 90's uninfected -- by only have safer sex (except with my partner -- of 17 years as of now). I KNEW about HIV, I KNEW how devastating it was, even if it was no longer a death sentence for most in this country, I KNEW how to stay uninfected. What happened?? My only explanation is complacency. I found myself "topping" without a condom on occasion -- and this slowly progressed to bottoming, with no condom, but withdrawal and so on. Obviously, something deep inside me (no puns, please ;D) was concerned (remember, I KNEW things) because I stopped having anal sex with my partner, I'm sure now it was because I was afraid I'd pass something on to him. I finally went and got tested and was shocked, but not surprised to hear "positive". Thankfully, my partner tested negative and remains so today.
So, while I think education is vital, it isn't a panacea. It is ONE tool in the arsenal. We can do better at things like advertising my realistically, but the truth is, SEX SELLS -- and this is true for everything. The positive community needs to be more open, but that is very difficult. Doctor's need to do more questioning and educating. There are probably tons of things that I'm not thinking of that would be helpful too. However, at the end of the day, people will continue to seroconvert. Why? because we are human. Because we all take calculated "risks" with our lives. How many people here smoke, despite all the "education" out there? How many people of overweight, despite all the "education" out there? How many people drink and drug to excess, despite all the education out there. I think you get my point.
I'm not saying we should give up -- not at all -- we need to continue with education and with finding new and innovative ways to do so. What I am saying is that we can't expect to stop it without something like a preventative vaccine. we can do our best to keep numbers as low as but possible, but as long as HIV remains transmissible, HIV will be transmitted.
My 2 cents,
Mike
(edited to correct a couple typos)
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I'm ever so thrilled to be recognized by you DashedHopes. If you expect respect and compasion then you should treat others the same way. I was frankly appauled by the way you attacked one recent person in the I Just Tested Positive section. Way to throw out the welcome mat! If this is what being a long time survivor is all about then count me out of your dismal world!
Ugh!
I counted you out a long time ago Austin. You are transparent and a phony and I stand behind every word I said to you or anyone else in the forum. Unlike you I don't have to resort to childish passive aggressive behavior to attack someone, but thanks for posting in this thread I learned alot and I appreciate your thoughts.
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LOL, where's the rest of the gang?
You know I think you have a crush on me Dash, the way you follow me around like a puppy! It's really something special!
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LOL, where's the rest of the gang?
You know I think you have a crush on me Dash, the way you follow me around like a puppy! It's really something special!
Sorry girl, I like men.
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does posting and running count as passive aggressive or just chicken shit?
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Placing the blame on people MY age is so incredibly ignorant and a huge cop-out.
Did I know about HIV when I was infected? Duh. I was born in 1990 - me and everyone I know grew up hearing about it since the day we were born. It's always been a part of our world and it's always been something that was shoved down our throats every time we entered school.
In 8th grade, I remember a video they showed us. There was some guy, I don't even remember what he looked like now, but he was so painfully, obviously gay - and all he talked about on the video was how his boyfriend infected him and how he hoped that by talking on that video that some kid, SOMEWHERE wouldn't get infected because they heard what he had to say. Like I said, I don't even remember his face - but I can't help but feel such an overwhelming, way-too-goddamn-over-emotional feeling of just pure guilt every time I think about it.
I know what they were trying to do - and I know what they try to do to every pre-teen and teenager that ever walks into a health class in this country - they try to scare us. They terrify the shit out of us and I know that every single kid sitting in that classroom that day was SO uncomfortable. They couldn't wait until the goddamn bell rang so they could get the fuck out of there and away from the air in that classroom that I KNOW everyone in there felt had thickened and turned sour. It was a horrible feeling, but it didn't make anyone go out at the end of school that day and buy a pack of condoms. It just made them not want to think about it. It made them not want to even consider the fact that there was a disease out there that could make someone look like the man on that video looked. Or that could make someone cry and beg and plead like he had.
People think that we're stupid, or that we don't believe when people say that AIDS isn't a gay disease. I knew that, even as a gay kid, I knew that - so did every straight kid I went to school with.
But everyone assumes we're stupid. They don't bother teaching us about it, really. They tried to scare us about it so that that's all they have to deal with on the topic. No discussion about it.
I remember the neat little chart I had to fill out my freshman year for routes of transmission in my big poorly-copied packet of worksheets on STDs.
Want to know how to get HIV, kids? Fill in the goddamn blank and then pick your favorite.
Just tonight I got into an argument in a pizza place with four other gay guys I was hanging out with after a youth group meeting. How many times I had to shout, aggrivated, that you couldn't get HIV from spit or from giving someone head? Or how I had to deal with the looks on their faces (on the faces of four kids that I actually like) that said, Why the fuck do you care, anyway? Why are you getting so angry?
They didn't know, and before I was infected, I didn't know either. I didn't WANT to know. I know they didn't want to either, and I know that's why the conversation was eventually dropped and we went back to laughing and discussion how much we like so-and-so and who of us were coming back next week to meet up.
It's not their fault. And after two years I can honestly say it wasn't MY fault either. Yes, I knew better, I knew that I wasn't invincible. They know they're not invincible. Really, it's true - as much as most people would like to write off teenagers as some stupid but well-intentioned group of shitheaded kids. We'll listen if you tell us something - we might not admit it then, we might even laugh and make a joke about it to your face - because we have people to impress, I know. But I promise that later that night we'll be discussing it with our friends while we're spending the night together, or instant messaging someone on AIM and going God, I really should go get tested. I'm worried now.
The problem is no one wants to tell us shit. They want to scare us. They want to throw packets of useless information at us, and then they want to forget about it. And if we fuck up? Well, that's our fault now. We should have KNOWN better and now we're going to have to just suck it up and cope.
- Squeak
(who is in a pessimistic mood)
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Mouse~
I was wondering when I would see you in this thread. I am so glad you posted your point of view in here. I understand what you mean by the awkwardness and the scare tactics -- makes you want to run for the hills and nothing sinks in. I wish there was something the Nation could do to get the info across in a more meaningful way, but that is where we are lacking.
Thanks for chiming in tonight.
~Cindy
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Mouse if you knew about HIV and other STDs, how did you let it happen? That is the point I believe people are trying to make or should I say question. As for being scared, kids should be scared, look what you have been through.
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Rodney,
I think what Mouse is trying to say is that scare tactics, which are used in schools in place of REAL sexual health education, aren't working. Scare tactics do not inform, they only scare and make people turn off and put it out of their minds.
What kids today urgently need is honest and frank discussion on the proper use of condoms and when they should be used. Most schools aren't allowed to use the C word, much less teach kids how to use them.
Ann
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I tested positive at age 28 in 1988. I knew HIV was out there but like most people I didn't think it could really happen to me. Why would someone I trusted turn out to be a major mistake? Talk about dumb! I don’t know that age has anything to do with poor decision making.
BUT, it was my mistake because I made a poor decision. The guy who passed this on to me is irrelevant. Regardless of age, I would guess (in most cases) we all made poor decisions regardless of who or what we are or else we wouldn't be infected now. In that respect, I don't see any generation gap whatsoever.
Daniel
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Most schools aren't allowed to use the C word, much less teach kids how to use them.
Ann
That is so true. When I go into schools to speak, we can tell how people get HIV, but cannot speak of one of the biggest ways to prevent it-condom use. Just look at how the Bush administration cuts off aid to countries who won't promote abstinence-only. It's ridiculous.
I also fault magazines like Poz for making having HIV look like an adventure of a lifetime with their glittzy ads.
About the younger generation, my daughter was born in 1984 and she has seen the ugly side of AIDS from my infection and several of my friends who have passed. She uses condoms.
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Just ducking in to remind all that, if one focuses solely on knowledge available to people, new infections among Gay men occur in shocking numbers among all ages groups. Over-simplifying the problem to the perceived invincibility of youth or the laziness of middle age does little to produce solutions. Teaching Queermen to love themselves on all levels first and foremost and to discount peer pressure may also be too simplistic a suggested remedy.
Peace,
David
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I'm part of the "older" generation but I sympathize with the younger generation. Ideas that come from some LTS that I don't agree with include:
Younger people don't think AIDS is a big deal. Maybe it's living in NC but no one I know wouldn't freak out if they found out they had HIV. There are people I know who wouldn't want me to touch them or hold their baby if they knew I was HIV+. If HIV is no big deal then why do so many people on here get turned down for sex or dumped when they disclose their HIV status? It's still a big deal.
Education is going to stop HIV. The reality is many people knew all about HIV before they were infected. They knew about condoms. They knew friends and lovers that died. They became infected anyway, and I'm part of "they". Educating people about HIV and condoms is important but it won't solve the problem. It's not all about ignorance, it's about human nature.
You're naive to think medications are going to save you. If it wasn't for medications the LTS wouldn't be here. When I was diagnosed I was told I might live 5 years. Yet here I am 14 years later and my life is good. I've had side-effects and problems but the reality is 95% of the time I'm fine. Being told "just you wait, you're going to get sick" isn't productive. Medications keep improving and no one knows what the future holds. Being told I had 5 years screwed me up, particularly financially.
You don't appreciate my sacrifice. Respect is something that is given freely, you can't demand it. It's commendable to tell your story and the story of people who are no longer around to tell theirs. People will respond to honesty and true sacrifice. Telling people "you owe me" or "you're too young to understand" isn't going to earn any sympathy. As the saying goes "Get off the cross, we need the wood."
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You're naive to think medications are going to save you. If it wasn't for medications the LTS wouldn't be here. When I was diagnosed I was told I might live 5 years. Yet here I am 14 years later and my life is good. I've had side-effects and problems but the reality is 95% of the time I'm fine. Being told "just you wait, you're going to get sick" isn't productive. Medications keep improving and no one knows what the future holds. Being told I had 5 years screwed me up, particularly financially.
You don't appreciate my sacrifice. Respect is something that is given freely, you can't demand it. It's commendable to tell your story and the story of people who are no longer around to tell theirs. People will respond to honesty and true sacrifice. Telling people "you owe me" or "you're too young to understand" isn't going to earn any sympathy. As the saying goes "Get off the cross, we need the wood."
I don't think I've ever seen any LTS say those things to be honest.
I know they often talk about how medications alone won't save your life and how many are ignorant on the long term effects of both meds and HIV - but I must not have noticed when anyone of them said that meds won't save your life.
As for them demanding appreciateion of their sacrifices - I've never seen that either. I HAVE seen a frustration at people assuming everything they have gone through is just ancient history with no relevance to their life with HIV now. I've also seen LTS demand that people respect the truths of established fact of what meds and HIV due to a body over the long term in response to when people say it's just a matter of eating well and having a happy demeanor.
Perhaps that cross you suggest they burn really is nothing more than a soapbox that both sides seems to be fighting over for the rights of?
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As a somewhat new member here (well, i have lurked for a long time) i thought it was time i just jumped in and let me thoughts known on this subject.
To me, it is pretty simple.
We are all responsible for ourselves...end of story.
There are several types of educational programs and materials out there. There are support groups for those gay youth who are having a problem with coming to terms with their orientation. There are older men (and women) who have done that whole "trying to find myself and who I am thing" so when it comes down to it, a person being infected in this day and age has no one or no circumstance to blame their new infection on but themselves.
As far as younger gay men thinking 1. "It will never happen to me, I am too young and too hot to mess around with anyone who isn't as hot as me so I don't need to worry.....I mean, hot guys are the safest, right?" 2. or the "No one understands me, no one else is gay...blah blah blah" we have all gone through that stuff already. if anything, it should prompt the younger, hotter (in their own minds) men to take extra precautions to keep themselves that way.
I am tired of hearing that old line, not enough education is available and more needs to be done to keep me safe....BS....it is all up to each person to keep themselves negative and not anyone else's fault when they do become infected.
Invincibility is just another word for ignorance.
When people make that decision to have sex, i am thinking they have also taken the time to make themselves as aware as possible to avoid hiv and STDs.
Do you think the young hotties who walk around with those oh so fabulous six pack abs and perfect high tight butts just wondered into a gym one day and picked up any weight or got on any machine just knowing that after a year or so they would be considered the cities newest hottest man? Not on your life. They read, studied and spoke to others they wanted to be like and followed the strict advice on what it took to achieve their goals to have that killer body. So why would that same kid just go out and f*^@ with the first man to offer a positive comment?
A rather drawn out explanation, but one that, if only to me makes the most sense.
JMHO...............
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Well, when I was in my teens, which is not when I got infected (I'm too old), I didn't give one rip about using condoms. STDs at the time were seen as just something to go to the doctor for. I never had any long-range plans as to what I was going to do with my life etc..... I'm not saying that all teens are like this. I'm an addict and so have addicted-type thinking. Not all teens are addicts. There are a lot of issues that need to be addressed with HIV. There isn't nearly enough support groups or education, at least in my town, for teens.
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quote Iggy: " This may already have been stated, but I think it is more than a generation gap in age - it is also one of date of diagnosis."
I Agree...that this is the heart of the thread.
I, as a person over 60, cannot relate to most 20 somethings...but I can relate to being just diagnosed HIV positive. So...we have that in common. Lets not allow a generation gap to prevent LTS folks from helping out.
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The younger generation definitely don't think HIV/AIDS is a big deal. There was a survey done here in the UK where 20% of 18-24 year olds thought there was a cure for HIV. A quarter of the same age group thought that condoms had a hole in them that allowed the virus through anyway!
There are probably several reasons for this and a big one for me is probably the media. Television and the Internet are so influential now yet I personally hardly ever see any mention of HIV/AIDS in the media unless you go looking for it. Whenever there is it's normally a story about someone being sent to prison for deliberately infecting people, demonising all other HIV people in the process.
Despite all this however as Melia said if people aren't willing to educate themselves then what can you do? I could have educated myself but I chose not to so I've only myself to blame no one else!
Chris
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After having invested years of my life in getting out preventative messages, I now just feel it was a waste.
Prevention is dead. Long live "Poz is fab", and hope for a vaccine/cure.
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The younger generation definitely don't think HIV/AIDS is a big deal. There was a survey done here in the UK where 20% of 18-24 year olds thought there was a cure for HIV. A quarter of the same age group thought that condoms had a hole in them that allowed the virus through anyway!
After I disclosed to my 18-year old student in Greece she told me she felt so sad for me that I would never be able to have a relationship again. I asked her what she meant by that. It came to light that she believed you could contract HIV through kissing and even if you use condoms. I put her straight on both counts.
In the UK, when I disclosed to my 14 year old nephew (he was actually 13 at the time) he thought HIV had something to do with the bones. I disclosed to him because I knew he'd started sex-ed at high school and knew he was mature enough to know about me. Now, he's a smart kid and loves learning stuff, so I don't think it was a case of him not paying attention in class. I'm guessing (though of course may be wrong) that the topic of HIV/STDs was so glossed over or just thrown in with a whole bunch other stuff that it wasn't explained clearly.
When I disclosed to his brother who is 12 and also smart, he questioned (or more like grilled) me for over an hour, to the point where he understood about exactly how it is transmitted, the relationship between CD4 count and viral load, opportunistic infections and drug resistance. His interest/curiosity blew my mind that day and also made me incredibly proud.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is this: Whether 18, 14 or 12 years old, young folk will listen and learn with the right kind of approach and teaching.
Melia
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After having invested years of my life in getting out preventative messages, I now just feel it was a waste.
Again, speaking as a teacher, Brent I can assure you that even though your activism over the years may not have educated or changed the masses, it will more than likely have made a difference to at least one person. That matters. Please don't give up on that. We need good folk like you alongside us fighting our corner.
Bisous
Melia :-*
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And latin....sweeping generalisations re gays methinks and THERE ARE sex clubs for straights!
Tigger, I guess I am sooo Queer, I haven't developed the St8dar :)
Are there reaaly str8 sex-clubs like our gay dark-rroms?
Alex
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Rodney,
I think what Mouse is trying to say is that scare tactics, which are used in schools in place of REAL sexual health education, aren't working. Scare tactics do not inform, they only scare and make people turn off and put it out of their minds.
What kids today urgently need is honest and frank discussion on the proper use of condoms and when they should be used. Most schools aren't allowed to use the C word, much less teach kids how to use them.
Ann
Aye. I was never taught how to put a condom on. HIV was NEVER discussed in the classroom. Seriously. Ever. We got worksheets on it that we filled out from copying shit from our books into it, it was turned in for homework, and never discussed - and that was the end of HIV discussion in highschool.
If teenagers don't think HIV is a big deal, that's because they have no fucking clue what's going on. And how are they supposed to know unless someone tells them? Someone who actually knows what they're talking about? My health teacher in 9th grade was one of the PE teachers, and he was an obvious bigoted, homophobic fuckwit who had no idea what he was talking about. Those are the sorts of people that are teaching kids these days.
EVERYTHING I knew then about HIV was from other gay friends of mine, and of course it's going to be flawed knowledge.
Or hell, some of them seemed to think it wasn't a problem at all. But I was 14, and none of my friends were older than 18 or so and that's what I was told. Of course, I knew better - and they did reiterate to use condoms a lot, but I was 14, and who the hell thinks they're going to get HIV at 14? Not using a condom when I knew better WAS my own fault - of course, I'm not really talking about myself here for most of this - just the fact that I've experienced what sort of education kids my age are getting on this stuff. If you knew how many kids I'd heard tell me that HIV can get through condoms anyway you'd realize that many gay teenagers probably think - "Well, neither of us have to worry about getting pregnant, and I'd get HIV whether I used a condom or not - so fuck it."
Edit:
And buca45,
Maybe that shit was available to you, and maybe it's available to people who live in cities and places where actual gay communities exist, but it was never available here. I remember going into Philadelphia for the first time and being freaking floored by how many support groups and information packets and shit were in every doctor's office I was in. There is none of that here, I promise you. I don't know how many millions of people live in the rural, bum-fuck Pennsylvania valley that I live in, but none of them have access to any of it, and I suspect it's the same in similar areas across the country.
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Thanks Mouse for explaining.
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I just reread the original post about this and then the real reason came to me.
In the gay world (and just realizing in the str8 world as well) it is the US vs THEM situation.
By us, I refer to those of us who have been 'blessed' with this bug for years and are some what 'more mature'.....I will not fall into that mindset and call myself 'old'. 15+ years and poz and 48 yo I am looked at in the gay world as being an old queen who was at one time a slut.
The younger generation who didn't have to face the epidemic when it was a death sentence wants nothing to do with us and believe it is something that will not affect their hot young bodies at all. For those who do think of it, they believe the hated and misleading ads that feature happy, hot young men who 'just pop a pill' and remain healthy and hot.
We didn't fail them, they, in alienating the older generation, failed themselves. I was cruising through the gay.com rooms recently and noticed they have divided up a cities rooms not only by location, but by age as well. Although there is no mention of how old you have to be to be in the "mature" rooms, I take it anyone over 30 qualifies as old.
So take it from one mature hiv poz man, we didn't fail the younger generation at all. In their sick rationale that only old men from the 80's have AIDS, they have failed themselves and now their perfect hot little worlds fall down around them when they now become infected with that old mans disease.
As much as I want to feel compassion for young, newly infected men, IMO, they did it to themselves by excluding us mature people from their lives.
Mouse, have to disagree with you on that point. As long as you have a TV and a computer, young people around the country are bombarded with the same information that is distributed in the bigger cities through pamphlets. Sorry, just cant accept that rationale.....
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I just reread the original post about this and then the real reason came to me.
In the gay world (and just realizing in the str8 world as well) it is the US vs THEM situation.
By us, I refer to those of us who have been 'blessed' with this bug for years and are some what 'more mature'.....I will not fall into that mindset and call myself 'old'. 15+ years and poz and 48 yo I am looked at in the gay world as being an old queen who was at one time a slut.
The younger generation who didn't have to face the epidemic when it was a death sentence wants nothing to do with us and believe it is something that will not affect their hot young bodies at all. For those who do think of it, they believe the hated and misleading ads that feature happy, hot young men who 'just pop a pill' and remain healthy and hot.
We didn't fail them, they, in alienating the older generation, failed themselves. I was cruising through the gay.com rooms recently and noticed they have divided up a cities rooms not only by location, but by age as well. Although there is no mention of how old you have to be to be in the "mature" rooms, I take it anyone over 30 qualifies as old.
So take it from one mature hiv poz man, we didn't fail the younger generation at all. In their sick rationale that only old men from the 80's have AIDS, they have failed themselves and now their perfect hot little worlds fall down around them when they now become infected with that old mans disease.
As much as I want to feel compassion for young, newly infected men, IMO, they did it to themselves by excluding us mature people from their lives.
I just want to note, that I don't care if you've had HIV since the great extinction of the dinosaurs, it isn't a shoo-in for maturity.
Edit:
I can't believe that you feel like you can just talk shit and generalize about an entire group of people. It's disturbing. With an attitude like that, I can't imagine how anyone would want to go to you for advice in the first place.
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LOL sorry if you see it as a generalization, I see it and live it as a reality.
I am not here to advise or counsel, I only offer my opinions based on my life experiences....and those experiences have been many and varied.
It's funny how you can make a comment like you did (dinosaurs) and still have the balls to say I generalize and am attempting to offer advice.
Don't really have to add much more to your analogy of this topic do I?
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LOL sorry if you see it as a generalization, I see it and live it as a reality.
I am not here to advise or counsel, I only offer my opinions based on my life experiences....and those experiences have been many and varied.
It's funny how you can make a comment like you did (dinosaurs) and still have the balls to say I generalize and am attempting to offer advice.
Don't really have to add much more to your analogy of this topic do I?
Since I was obviously stupid enough to get HIV in the first place, considering all the resources and information about prevention available to me as a 14-year-old kid in rural Pennsylvania, how could I possibly be intelligent enough to have this discussion with you? Why are you bothering?
You do generalize, buca. You've suggested that the only reason why people are still getting HIV is because they're not making hysterical phone calls to every gay person they know over the age of 30 for HIV information. I'm sorry, but in a realistic world, this idea is completely, utterly flawed. Especially when you take into consideration the age group that I've been discussing. Until I joined here, I didn't have any friends that were over 18 years old, and everyone in that age group were getting information from the same exact source that I'd been. What normal gay teenager has friends over the age of 30 (nevermind that's HIV+?)
It's not like they were approaching us on the streets:
"Hey, kid. You look like a butt-pirate, want to hear a story?"
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what mouse said
and what buca said, mostly, except I don;t think failure and alienation come into it, it just we (I) am OLD ENOUGH TO BE THEIR DAD
but mostly what mouse said
- matt
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"Hey, kid. You look like a butt-pirate, want to hear a story?"
I used to say this to people all the time. The story ended with the princess driving off a cliff in Monaco.
Now, I have a stack of restraining orders and several lawyers on speed dial. I hesitate to encourage anyone to put two and two together.
I got teh HIV because sex plus booze equals bad decision making. It's amazing how tens of millions of dollars in sex education can be completely wasted when one homo decides to spend 20 bucks on a bottle of Stoli. Laissez les bons temps rouler, indeed.
I think I just blew some minds.
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Dude, seriously chill a bit!!
You know nothing about me either, so lets just put the swords away and discuss this a bit more.
I too come from a tiny town in the midwest. Growing up gay and a minority didn't exactly make me popular with the other queer kids in town so I did what I now realize was a wise thing.... I made friends with the town gay "dinosaurs" as I knew since they survived being gay in a rural setting, maybe just maybe, I would learn something from them. Had I been accepted into the clique of queer boys screaming around town, nothing good would have come of it.
this too started for me around the age of 13. Although it was offered numerous times, sex wasn't the driving factor for me then. Something inside just allowed me to bypass that draw (hell yes i thought about it) and i just didn't act upon it. Common sense prevailed and I abstained until i graduated HS and moved to live with relatives in a large city.
I made the choice to make older gays my friends and maybe I wasn't considered "normal" to do so, but I enjoyed their company and learned the ropes of 'gay survival' early.
While other gay men my age were S-ing and F-ing everything that walked by, I finished my college education and found a man who would become my partner for the next 15 years. He too was older than I.
Near the end of our relationship, thinking i had missed out on something by refusing sex at an early age, I decide that i wanted to have an open relationship. We did and within 2 years, I became infected. That ended the relationship and I faced what i had to and because of it, became a stronger person.
Shortly after that break up, I met a man who was negative. Within the first ten minutes of our conversation, I blurted out "IM POSTIVE" and attempted to walk away. He stopped me and we talked for hours that night and here it is 10 years later that we are still together.
Now the reason I tell you that story is so you will see that I am only a person as well, one who made mistakes and one who learned from them. I in no way am judging you for the decisions you made to get you to where you are now.
What I am doing however, is to tell you what allowed me to have the outlook i do. I still have to stand by the statement I made saying I do not generalize, but rather make statements and have opinions based on my life.
Again, regardless of your age, in this day of media exposure and the availability of the internet, there is no reason for people to put themselves at risk. I'm sorry you didn't have access to more info or even a "dinosaur" (or parent) to guide you through this time, but again the info is out there if you want it.
IMO, if you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to learn the consequences BEFORE you do so, rural life or not. No need for hysterical calls (or in your case, maybe so) to get the info you needed to make that choice to have sex in the first place.
Also, you say you had no friends over 18 but I am sure at some point you did come in contact with others who had sex and maybe became pregnant at an early age? Didn't that make an alarm sound off that maybe some information might be needed?
In speaking with my nieces and nephews in that same small town that I grew up in, they all know what the story is and I hope will make decisions based on what they have learned. I certainly tell them all I know to to guide them that way.
So, in reading my life story, I hope you get a sense that there were other ways to live. Again, I'm not passing judgement on you or calling you names...I'm only relating my opinions and how i came to this point in my life.
[/quote]
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I don't know how the hell you managed it, buca, but I assure you that I would never have been allowed to hang out with older gay men. Or older people in general.
I also had this urge to not be the only gay kid I knew of, so I wound up with a bunch of gay kids my own age. Weird how that happens.
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I got teh HIV because sex plus booze equals bad decision making. It's amazing how tens of millions of dollars in sex education can be completely wasted when one homo decides to spend 20 bucks on a bottle of Stoli. Laissez les bons temps rouler, indeed.
.
Here I was thinking I was the only dipshit stupid enough to make the old drunken sex mistake. I wasnt even cool enough to be all methed up :)
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Well Mouse, I did so out of desperation as I wanted to fit in somewhere and those are the men who would have me.
Like most other things in my life, since I was gay, my family didn't want to have anything to do with me, so my decisions were never questioned.
So now that you know that, do you understand where I am coming from? I seriously meant no harm to you....only giving my opinions. Isn't that what this forum is all about?
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Did anyone here know that the brains (and specifically the frontal lobes... which control higher reasoning) of adolescents and young adults are fundamentally different from those of people over 25?
There is not yet full structural maturity of the brain until the mid-20s, which means that teenagers and people in their early 20s are more impulsive and less future-oriented in considering the conquences of their actions than they will be in ten years. This is patently obvious through obversation, but its roots are physiological.
I remember reading a scientist who was explaining how the brain doesn't actually become "adult" until around 25 and pointed out that Americans allow 16 year olds to drive, 18 year olds to vote, and 21 year olds to drink... but you have to be 25 to rent a car. And that regarding brain development, the only ones who had it right were the car rental people.
In short, expecting an 18 year old to use the judgement of a 35 year old is like expecting an 18 month old to speak in complex sentences. It's not going to happen. We work around the development of toddlers but expect 20 year olds to make decisions that they're not exactly fully equipped to make.
Fun fact.
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I don't know how the hell you managed it, buca, but I assure you that I would never have been allowed to hang out with older gay men. Or older people in general.
I also had this urge to not be the only gay kid I knew of, so I wound up with a bunch of gay kids my own age. Weird how that happens.
Word. My mom would have killed me if I was hanging out with older kids (especially if they were gay) when I was 16.
She's a sharp old broad and would have quickly put two and two together.
Once, when I was 19, a guy who went to high school with my mom came and spoke to our gay group thing in college. About how he was HIV+, ironically enough... I told my mom about talking to him afterwards, and her only question to me was, "Why in God's name were you hanging out with a 45 year old man?"
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Fun fact indeed, but at what point does plain common sense come into play?
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Fun fact indeed, but at what point does plain common sense come into play?
With those under 25?
It doesn't... probably for the reason that it sort of can't.
Especially regarding abstract dangers. There's almost a cognitive inablilty to deal with and prepare for them in people under 25.
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A good subject for debate....
IMO, every human has different capabilities.
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Fun fact indeed, but at what point does plain common sense come into play?
You know Buca, perhaps it's because of wheezy ranting like this that the young people have stopped listening.
Oh and welcome to the forums.
MtD
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well, that type of answer just makes me want to ask again!!
thanks for the welcome....i think ive found an outlet for my untapped mental energy.
people, young or not, chose to listen or not....again, no placing blame or responsibility on anyone or anything.
JMHO.........
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A good subject for debate....
IMO, every human has different capabilities.
This is true... but we all grow and develop in the same way. The human brain is incredibly, deeply, and richly complex... and there are an infinite number of ways we can express our capabilities.
That said, we do follow a few hard and fast rules when it comes to growing.
How many children under the age of 10 write symphonies? Mozart did it 250 years ago, and we're still talking about it. The fact is that really... I'm willing to bet that there is not an eight year old out there who is writing a symphony right now. And if there is one, people will be talking about him or her in 250 years time. Because it's so remarkable.
We don't expect children to do things that they're literally incapable of doing. We don't teach 12 year olds differential calculus, we don't expect 13 year olds to sucessfully raise a child, and we don't allow 14 year olds to drive.
Their brains are quite simply not ready for it... their brains are physically not yet mature enough to process, handle or utilize the necessary data in any way.
It's much the same with older teenagers and young adults. The law says they're adults, but to expect them to act like it is a completely different (and mythical) animal. They won't because, for the most part, they are as incapable of doing so as an eight year old is of writing a symphony.
The jury's still out on if it's life experience that rewires your brain or if it works the other way around (neural rewiring makes you make better decisions). It's probably both.
So, as long as we continue making babies, we'll have to expect them to act like damn fools from the ages of 16 to 25 or so. Because it is, quite literally natural for them to do so.
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Just to say:
I don't have a link for it or anything, but I did read about some studies on brain development that jived with Benj's comments above. One of them was focusing on the tobacco industry's efforts to capitalize on those findings (as in get 'em before they're old enough to think it through properly).
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how did you let it happen?
a) People make mistakes. Nobody is perfect.
b) You can't infect yourself. In sexual transmission, someone else is involved. It is a social encounter, and it is really incredibly simplistic to simply ask 'how did you let it happen?'
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Just to say:
I don't have a link for it or anything, but I did read about some studies on brain development that jived with Benj's comments above. One of them was focusing on the tobacco industry's efforts to capitalize on those findings (as in get 'em before they're old enough to think it through properly).
I think I read that bit about the baccy, too!
I read my thing on brain development in my National Geographic.
National Geographic is like a well-photographed, well-written, thought-provoking version of POZ magazine for geeks.
And I am a huge geek.
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How many children under the age of 10 write symphonies?
Me :D But what happens is that I am an "out-of-my-tiime" genius
(Just kidding to release some pressure from the thread, do not pretend to hijack. )
Alex
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a) People make mistakes. Nobody is perfect.
b) You can't infect yourself. In sexual transmission, someone else is involved. It is a social encounter, and it is really incredibly simplistic to simply ask 'how did you let it happen?'
It wasn't asking how Mouse was exposed, that's a known. What I was asking was if he was raised up and knew how to prevent it how did it happen. Which inturn, he replied. Let's see, you forgot to mention mother to child, IV drug abuse, the use of factor 8, blood transfusions and occupational exposures. Sex is not the only way, in which one could have been infected, but as I said, that wasn't the question to Mouse. If you would have been on the forums long enough you would have known that, that wasn't what I was asking.
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Education is going to stop HIV. The reality is many people knew all about HIV before they were infected. They knew about condoms. They knew friends and lovers that died. They became infected anyway, and I'm part of "they". Educating people about HIV and condoms is important but it won't solve the problem. It's not all about ignorance, it's about human nature.
Thank you for this. This makes a lot of sense to me. I have been thinking that a lot of so-called prevention campaigns do not actually change people's behavior, but rather create social or moral milieux in which people who do become infected can easily be blamed, disparaged, and written off. 'It was your own fault, you should have known better.'
The idea that people simply 'rationally' manage their sex lives is absurd and there are reems of research on the topic. This is not to say that people do not think about their health... it is just that more often than not, they forces involved in sexual decision making are not about one's health.
I think about this question of risk & blame all the time, since part of what HIV has meant for me is basically feeling like a complete idiot all the time for messing up and getting infected. So I spin mental scenarios to try to break down the problem and de-naturalize some of the common sense of sexual risk, HIV infection, and blame or moral condemnation. Here are two recent thoughts I have been working on:
a) We all engage in risky or dangerous activity very often. We may take steps to mitigate the risk involved. Driving on the freeway is quite dangerous. Thousands of people are seriously maimed or killed in car crashes every year. People abide by the law, wear seat belts, and so on to try to reduce risk and reduce harm. Yet suppose a man who is speeding, but not driving recklessly or anything, lets just say he is driving 75 in a 65 zone, gets into a car crash and becomes paralyzed. Is he blamed for this or felt to have morally failed? Or better yet, let's say that this guy who is going 75 °hits° another driver who is also going 75 and kills that driver. Everyone knows that car crashes happen on the freeway, but does is the victim of the car crash asked (as someone has asked here), How did you let it happen? The point of this thought experiment, which I am still working on, is to separate 'sex' from the question of 'risk' since sex colors people's perceptions so profoundly.
b) Two men engage in condomless receptive anal sex with different partners of unknown status. One comes away negative, the other positive. If the man who comes away negative is 'lucky' not to get HIV, what is the man who comes away positive? Just unlucky? And yet, from the standpoint of common sense judgment (remember that this is a thought experiment), the man who contracts HIV is the target of 'blame,' while the negative man is 'lucky.' To my mind, either both of these men are morally wrong and worthy of blame (regardless of HIV status) or else neither of them is.
I dunno if either of those make sense, and they don't necessarily address the question of HIV generations. But some of the discourse in this thread leads me to believe that even within (or perhaps especially within) the community of people who are HIV+, there are certain damaging moral preconceptions about the acts that can lead to HIV infection that are problematic and potentially even fallacious. But this is something I am still working out.
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The point of this thread is not to know how or why someone got infected, it is about how much did you really know about the reality of having HIV.
Mouse-
Thank you for your comments and opinion. I think you are a terrific kid ( sorry if I offended you by saying kid, not my intention), and I admire you.
Rich
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I've heard a lot of interesting points here! I do think there is a serious lack of education. Biggest obstacle is religion hands down. They aren't teaching ANYTHING with these Abstinence only programs, it's just Preaching ignorance and intolerance in my opinion!
Anyways, I remembered this article which was relevant to the original topic and thought I'd post it for those interested:
The Culture of Disease
By HARVEY FIERSTEIN
There are too many positive gay role models. In fighting the AIDS crisis over the last 20 years, we have done everything possible to dispel the negative connotations that come with having H.I.V. After all, it's been our brothers and sisters, our boyfriends and girlfriends, and ourselves who have been discriminated against because of a virus. So we produced advertising, created enlightenment programs, spent endless hours making certain that having AIDS or being H.I.V. positive was nothing to be ashamed of. We did a great job. Maybe too great a job. After all the effort exerted to convince the world that AIDS is not a gay disease, we now have a generation embracing AIDS as its gay birthright. According to figures just released by the Centers for Disease Control, the number of new AIDS cases rose last year for the first time in a decade. Four Americans now become infected with the disease every hour. Many of our young men see infection as a right of passage, an inevitable coming of age. I hear of them seeking the disease as entree into the cool, queer inner circle that being negative denies them.In our effort to remove the stigma of having AIDS, have we created a culture of disease? We all see the ads for H.I.V. drugs. They illustrate hot muscular men living life to the fullest thanks to modern science. Other ads show couples holding hands, sending the message that the road to true love and happiness is being H.I.V. positive. Is that message: You're going to be O.K.? (Which is terrific.) Or is it: You want to be special? Get AIDS. H.I.V. equals popularity and acceptance. (Which would be tragic.)My heart goes out to all who have the infection. But while I pledge my energies and resources to the fight for a cure, quality care and justice, I still think we need to examine what we're teaching our gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual and straight youth. In my opinion, the messages the drug companies are spreading are lies. The truth is that AIDS is not fun. It's not sexy or manageable. AIDS is a debilitating, deforming, terminal and incurable disease. H.I.V. drugs can bring on heart, kidney and liver disease, as well as a host of daily discomforts.Unlike the photos in the ads we see, most of my friends who are on drug cocktails are not having the time of their lives. They spend mornings in the bathroom throwing up or suffering from diarrhea. They spend afternoons at doctor's appointments, clinics and pharmacies. And they spend endless evenings planning their estates and trying to make ends meet because they are not well enough to support themselves and their new drug habit. And those are just the friends for whom the drugs work. For many women the cocktails are nothing but a drain on finance, internal organs and stamina. Even if the drugs were as effective as advertised, should we be creating a community of drug dependency? We have done a terrific job removing the stigma of having AIDS. But in doing so we've failed to eliminate the disease. H.I.V. is an almost completely avoidable infection. You need to be compliant in some very specific behaviors to be at risk. In fact, if every person now infected vowed that the disease ended with him, we could wipe out the ballooning number of new infections.Instead, we've sold our next generation into drug slavery and their destiny to medical researchers because we'd rather treat each other as sexual objects than as family. Thanks to the drug companies that have made billions of dollars off us, and to the medical community that has gained a captive audience to fill appointment books, and to AIDS charities that have become a career for many, we have created an industry of disease that would crumble if AIDS was cured in our community.I am calling for us to take back our lives and culture and to stop spreading the virus. I am calling for us to resist the normalization of disease and once again embrace health. I'm calling for an end to the false advertising for drugs and for us to stop minimizing the infection with cute little names like "the gift" or "the bug." I want to see an ad campaign showing a sexy man saying: I don't have H.I.V. I don't want to waste my life and resources on drugs. I am taking charge of my body, my health and my destiny. I am a negative gay role model.
Harvey Fierstein, who won the 2003 Tony Award for his performance in "Hairspray," is a commentator on "In the Life," a television series.
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The point of this thread is not to know how or why someone got infected, it is about how much did you really know about the reality of having HIV.
OK. The original post and some of the discussion relates specifically to the question of how knowledge of 'the reality of having HIV' relates to youth today getting infected... so I don't see them as separate issues. The original post suggests that the current culture of HIV as a manageable illness may contribute to continuing infection rates because (young) people do not take the disease 'seriously.'
What I am trying to think about, as someone who was infected recently, who 'knew better,' who remembers the precise moment when he thought 'maybe there is cure' when the HAART results starting looking hopeful, is how someone getting infected today is 'problematized': what presuppositions inform the framing of this as a problem?
And thank you AustinWesley for posting that (horrible) Fierstein essay, it illustrates perfectly certain common sense assumptions about risk and blame that I think merit critical interrogation by everyone, and especially by HIV+ people, young and old, newly diagnosed and LTS alike.
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Dude, seriously chill a bit!!
You know nothing about me either, so lets just put the swords away and discuss this a bit more.
I too come from a tiny town in the midwest. Growing up gay and a minority didn't exactly make me popular with the other queer kids in town so I did what I now realize was a wise thing.... I made friends with the town gay "dinosaurs" as I knew since they survived being gay in a rural setting, maybe just maybe, I would learn something from them. Had I been accepted into the clique of queer boys screaming around town, nothing good would have come of it.
this too started for me around the age of 13. Although it was offered numerous times, sex wasn't the driving factor for me then. Something inside just allowed me to bypass that draw (hell yes i thought about it) and i just didn't act upon it. Common sense prevailed and I abstained until i graduated HS and moved to live with relatives in a large city.
I made the choice to make older gays my friends and maybe I wasn't considered "normal" to do so, but I enjoyed their company and learned the ropes of 'gay survival' early.
While other gay men my age were S-ing and F-ing everything that walked by, I finished my college education and found a man who would become my partner for the next 15 years. He too was older than I.
Near the end of our relationship, thinking i had missed out on something by refusing sex at an early age, I decide that i wanted to have an open relationship. We did and within 2 years, I became infected. That ended the relationship and I faced what i had to and because of it, became a stronger person.
Shortly after that break up, I met a man who was negative. Within the first ten minutes of our conversation, I blurted out "IM POSTIVE" and attempted to walk away. He stopped me and we talked for hours that night and here it is 10 years later that we are still together.
Now the reason I tell you that story is so you will see that I am only a person as well, one who made mistakes and one who learned from them. I in no way am judging you for the decisions you made to get you to where you are now.
What I am doing however, is to tell you what allowed me to have the outlook i do. I still have to stand by the statement I made saying I do not generalize, but rather make statements and have opinions based on my life.
Again, regardless of your age, in this day of media exposure and the availability of the internet, there is no reason for people to put themselves at risk. I'm sorry you didn't have access to more info or even a "dinosaur" (or parent) to guide you through this time, but again the info is out there if you want it.
IMO, if you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to learn the consequences BEFORE you do so, rural life or not. No need for hysterical calls (or in your case, maybe so) to get the info you needed to make that choice to have sex in the first place.
Also, you say you had no friends over 18 but I am sure at some point you did come in contact with others who had sex and maybe became pregnant at an early age? Didn't that make an alarm sound off that maybe some information might be needed?
In speaking with my nieces and nephews in that same small town that I grew up in, they all know what the story is and I hope will make decisions based on what they have learned. I certainly tell them all I know to to guide them that way.
So, in reading my life story, I hope you get a sense that there were other ways to live. Again, I'm not passing judgement on you or calling you names...I'm only relating my opinions and how i came to this point in my life.
Buca-
You sound like a walking, talking version of the NAMBLA literature I remember reading around 1978. There's a word for men in their 30s who consort with teenage boys, and it's called pedophile.
I waited until I was 17 before becoming sexually active. It was 1977 and I was probably the last kid I knew to remain a virgin. I'd had more than one offer, beginning at age 15, from older men who were more than willing to help me explore my sexuality. I seriously considered at least one possiblity, but rejected it based on the creep factor.
Because i began self-identifying as gay way before I actually had sex, beginning again at about age 15. Like Mouse, I gravitated to other gay kids and we had a fierce clique going until we were deep into our 20s. They weren't all gay, though. At least one of the girls and two of the guys were highly bi-curious (at least in the beginning) and they all hung on because we had the best drugs in town and were by far the least judgemental, most open group they'd ever met.
Without the support of the clique, I shudder to think how I'd have been manipulated by older men more interested in my ass than my brain.
However, when I was 18 and supporting myself, I generally chose sex partners aged anything from five to twenty years older than me. They simply had finer skills, and i stuck around long enough to learn the subtleties of social graces along with being exposed to way much Gershwin and Porter. However, when it came time to choose lovers (as they were called back in the Disco era), I selected from peers or near peers. Sex is one thing, sharing one's life with someone who was my equal was absolutely essential.
Brent
(Who is one of Mouse's Fairy Poz Fathers and therefore very protective)
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Invincibility is just another word for ignorance.
I'm not sure I agree....a misconstrues version of reality but not necessarily ignorance
I just reread the original post about this and then the real reason came to me.
In the gay world (and just realizing in the str8 world as well) it is the US vs THEM situation.
By us, I refer to those of us who have been 'blessed' with this bug for years and are some what 'more mature'.....I will not fall into that mindset and call myself 'old'. 15+ years and poz and 48 yo I am looked at in the gay world as being an old queen who was at one time a slut.
The younger generation who didn't have to face the epidemic when it was a death sentence wants nothing to do with us and believe it is something that will not affect their hot young bodies at all. For those who do think of it, they believe the hated and misleading ads that feature happy, hot young men who 'just pop a pill' and remain healthy and hot.
We didn't fail them, they, in alienating the older generation, failed themselves. I was cruising through the gay.com rooms recently and noticed they have divided up a cities rooms not only by location, but by age as well. Although there is no mention of how old you have to be to be in the "mature" rooms, I take it anyone over 30 qualifies as old.
I think that the seperation in chat rooms is based on age groups that are more than likely going to get along based on similar interests and being attracted to each other. The purpose of chat rooms are one of 3 things, looking for sex, looking for friends, looking for love (we know in a gay site which is most popular)...If someone a 18-25 year old man is looking for sex (in general) they look for someone within a certain age range...If someone is looking for "love" i guess it depends on their "types" but if someoen is looking for friends many times older people and younger people cant connect because of different interests, maturity, among other things....I personally prefer people older than me but i understand why it is segregated....I think its the natural order of things as one ages.....If you say you can only go to a "mature" room what is wrong with that?
You have no idea how many times ive been rejected because im "too young" and i dont complain....I understand that someone older than myself is at a different stage in their life than me and they would prefer someone the same. I am in college, havent started a career and they are at the prime in their career and have different interests, friends and ideas of fun....I dont get upset (usually)
-josh
(who likes friends of all ages)
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Bucko....way off base there with your assessment of me and my younger years!!
BTW, pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children and not teens as your description applies. At 13-14, I was far beyond being categorized as a child. Yes, as I said earlier, a few advances were offered and I refused them and not for the same reasons as you....I wasn't "creeped out" by it as we mutually considered each other friends. No encounters ever happened as I used common sense. It was a mutually agreed that no sex would happen.
As far as the NAMBLA association, its quite a insulting remark to throw around so flippantly, given your signature line.
Anyway, as I explained to your "son" LOL (NAMBLA could be used back at you) what I post here is not a judgement of others, but merely my take on the topic at hand.....so please, save your judgements for someone who doesn't have the intellect to defend themselves. as those are probably your main victims.
What you go on to tell about yourself at the age of 18 is what I discovered a bit earlier...they were there to share their life experiences and I learned alot from my more "mature" friends.
It's a sad commentary on gay life that we look to one age group for sex and consider others older as our love interests....well, I should take out the 'we' from that statement as such was not the case with me.
Most of what you write gives me support for what this topic is all about....a generation gap and the differences that drive us to how we conduct ourselves, especially where sex and seroconversion are concerned.
Anyway, I'm not here to argue with you or others. I am only here to give my comments and opinions. So in the future, please do the same and hold your negativity to yourself.
Thanks and thanks for such a welcome!!!
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Anyway, as I explained to your "son" LOL (NAMBLA could be used back at you)
Where you previously just annoyed me, you now piss me the fuck off.
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Puerto Rico, I understand what you are trying to say and somewhat agree that is what the 'norm' in our world is.
I dont use age as a basis of who i chose to associate with. Some more mature men haven't mentally matured with their age and some younger men are far more advanced mentally than their peers. I get a few of the opposite of what you describe....younger men talk to me and I to them and take them at face value. As far as an idea friend, age doesnt enter the picture for me and appreciate that quality in the people I meet.
I think as you get older, you will see what I am saying. Still, I respect your take on the generational gap and thank you for sharing it.
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Where you previously just annoyed me, you now piss me the fuck off.
well that was not my original intention, but so be it.
glad to see my words do have an effect!! Being a veteran of several message boards, this is to be expected when different views are expressed...will i lose sleep over it....not in the least and hope you don't either.
Why I thought this forum would be any different than other gay populated boards is beyond me!! LOL have a good night.....
And, do you kiss your ..... whatever with that mouth????
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well that was not my original intention, but so be it.
glad to see my words do have an effect!! Being a veteran of several message boards, this is to be expected when different views are expressed...will i lose sleep over it....not in the least and hope you don't either.
Why I thought this forum would be any different than other gay populated boards is beyond me!! LOL have a good night.....
And, do you kiss your ..... whatever with that mouth????
I have to wonder if you actually expected to come into a forum where you didn't know anyone, with an attitude like you have, and make any friends? So much for not generalizing, because you've done it once again. I think you're a condescending asshole that's way too impressed with himself and his own opinions.
Just expressing my views, here.
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And I think you are a young bitter man with a lot to learn about life, which you will.
I never really expected to find friends here, just others to compare stories of how we cope with the obstacles in our lives.
I am assuming you haven't found a good way to cope yet, but in reading othes praises of you and your opinions, maybe they can help you find that person under the resentment and anger.
Good luck with that!!
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Bucko....way off base there with your assessment of me and my younger years!!
No, I don't think so.
BTW, pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children and not teens as your description applies. At 13-14, I was far beyond being categorized as a child. Yes, as I said earlier, a few advances were offered and I refused them and not for the same reasons as you....I wasn't "creeped out" by it as we mutually considered each other friends. No encounters ever happened as I used common sense. It was a mutually agreed that no sex would happen.
This is straight out of the NAMBLA playbook, and I'm not buying a word of it. 13-14 year old boys are not capable of the maturity necessary to interact with adult men as peers. In order to be a friend, you must first be a peer and be rough equals. There is no equality between a post-pubescent boy and a grown man, and any suggestion that such is possible is a risible over-reach of the term friend.
As far as the NAMBLA association, its quite a insulting remark to throw around so flippantly, given your signature line.
I have three signature lines. As we are strangers, I'll explain them to you, so there can be no misunderstanding.
"The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle every day": The Spin Cycle is the blog I share with Matty The Damned and several other members of AIDSmeds. Read it at your peril: it's bound to disturb and provoke you. But that's the reason behind its existence.
"Blessed with brains, talent & gorgeous tits": A Bette Midler quote.
"He may be Tina's bitch, but I'm not his": Is a quote from one of my Spin Cycle articles. The context is how I was coming to grips with a failed relationship with a closet Crystal Methamphetamine addict.
This has nothing to do with anything we've discussed.
And yes, the administrators and moderators are fully aware of The Spin Cycle and what is contained therein.
Anyway, as I explained to your "son" LOL (NAMBLA could be used back at you) what I post here is not a judgement of others, but merely my take on the topic at hand.....so please, save your judgements for someone who doesn't have the intellect to defend themselves. as those are probably your main victims.
My relationship with Jaser is not subject to your speculation, and I sincerely resent what you wrote there.
Unlike you and the relationships you enjoyed with men old enough to be your father (if not grandfather), we are not friends. I am his adviser, confidant and mentor. There is now nor has there ever been anything in any way inappropriate in my dealings with him.
You can attempt to "smutty" it up with speculation, but I can assure you that you are and will always be mistaken in that regard.
What you go on to tell about yourself at the age of 18 is what I discovered a bit earlier...they were there to share their life experiences and I learned alot from my more "mature" friends.
What I describe after I turned 18 is this:
However, when I was 18 and supporting myself, I generally chose sex partners aged anything from five to twenty years older than me. They simply had finer skills, and i stuck around long enough to learn the subtleties of social graces along with being exposed to way much Gershwin and Porter. However, when it came time to choose lovers (as they were called back in the Disco era), I selected from peers or near peers. Sex is one thing, sharing one's life with someone who was my equal was absolutely essential.
I state explicitly that I chose older men as sex partners once I turned 18. You are categorical in maintaining that those were platonic relationships. I don't see the connection.
It's a sad commentary on gay life that we look to one age group for sex and consider others older as our love interests....well, I should take out the 'we' from that statement as such was not the case with me.
Actually, that's not what I say either. I say that I preferred older men as sexual partners but chose peers for more enduring relationships.
Most of what you write gives me support for what this topic is all about....a generation gap and the differences that drive us to how we conduct ourselves, especially where sex and seroconversion are concerned.
Anything i discuss in my personal history of this time predates the AIDS crisis. I turned 20 in 1980 and didn't even equate sex with HIV until a few years after that. The first time someone insisted on my wearing a condom was in 1984. I remember it exactly. I thought it was some sick joke.
As an aside, I am a religious serosorter, and my preferred age for sexual partners is from 35-45, pretty much as it's always been.
Anyway, I'm not here to argue with you or others. I am only here to give my comments and opinions. So in the future, please do the same and hold your negativity to yourself.
For someone who doesn't want an argument, you certainly come out with both barrels cocked.
Thanks and thanks for such a welcome!!!
I do wish to make one thing extremely clear, because this is most important:
I have not now nor have ever suggested that you are a pedophile, irrespective of your rather novel cut-off date. But I am resolute that teenage boys (13-17) are off limits to adult men as anything other than mentors.
It is impossible to be "friends" with someone who is not your sociological equal.
well that was not my original intention, but so be it
glad to see my words do have an effect!!.
I'm glad you're happy having upset Jaser. You must be very proud making a 16-year-old upset.
Being a veteran of several message boards, this is to be expected when different views are expressed...will i lose sleep over it....not in the least and hope you don't either.
Sleep tight, I'll make sure Jaser gets calm down now.
Why I thought this forum would be any different than other gay populated boards is beyond me!! LOL have a good night.....
And, do you kiss your ..... whatever with that mouth?Huh
The joke is "mother". Jaser has a mother, and a boyfriend, too (of his own age). I'm quite sure he kisses them both. I wouldn't worry about his vocabulary, it's standard teenager stuff with a precocious edge.
He's a great kid coping better than most men twice his age, but he's still a kid. Engaging in a verbal spat with a 16-year old is contemptable. As an adult, you should know better.
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And I think you are a young bitter man with a lot to learn about life, which you will.
And you are a foolish newcomer who with a lot to learn about our Mouse. If you had any idea of the respect and esteem in which he is held around here, much less why he is so held, you'd eat your own head with shame and embarrassment.
You need to understand that the Smaller One has been with us since he was 14, that's over two years. You have been here for a much shorter amount of time and would do well to keep a civil and respectful tongue in your head.
MtD
(Who will only tolerate so much dissin' of the Little Man)
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Bucko....way off base there with your assessment of me and my younger years!!
No, I don't think so.
HAVE TO DISAGREE THERE TO SPECULATE I WAS USED A BAIT AND FOOD FOR PEDOPHILIC PREDATORS NEVER HAPPENED...THAT WAS AGREED ON BOTH SIDES.
BTW, pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children and not teens as your description applies. At 13-14, I was far beyond being categorized as a child. Yes, as I said earlier, a few advances were offered and I refused them and not for the same reasons as you....I wasn't "creeped out" by it as we mutually considered each other friends. No encounters ever happened as I used common sense. It was a mutually agreed that no sex would happen.
This is straight out of the NAMBLA playbook, and I'm not buying a word of it. 13-14 year old boys are not capable of the maturity necessary to interact with adult men as peers. In order to be a friend, you must first be a peer and be rough equals. There is no equality between a post-pubescent boy and a grown man, and any suggestion that such is possible is a risible over-reach of the term friend.
I AM NOT AS FAMILIAR WITH THE NAMBLA HANDBOOK AS YOU CLAIM TO BE, SO ILL LEAVE THAT UP TO YOU. SPEAK FOR YOURSELF, I WAS THEN PRETTY HARDENED BY REJECTION BY MY OWN PEERS DURING THAT TIME AND MY MATURE "MENTOR/FRIENDS" REALIZED THAT AND RESPECTED OUR RELATIONSHIP. THE FACT THERE WAS NO FATHER FIGURE IN MY LIFE CONTRIBUTED TO MY LONG LASTING SEARCH FOR ONE TO FILL THAT POSITION AND THOSE FEW I FOUND AS "MENTORS' DID THAT JOB WELL. I HAVE HAD IN ALL TIMES OF MY LATE TEEN AND ADULT LIFE FRIENDS OF ALL AGES, BOTH YOUNGER AND OLDER..AS I STATED BEFORE, TO ME AGE HASNT BEEN A PROBLEM. YES THERE IS CERTAINLY AND EQUALITY BEFORE AND AFTER THEY REALIZED THEY WERE ACTING AS A MUCH NEEDED FATHER FIGURE.
As far as the NAMBLA association, its quite a insulting remark to throw around so flippantly, given your signature line.
I have three signature lines. As we are strangers, I'll explain them to you, so there can be no misunderstanding.
"The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle every day": The Spin Cycle is the blog I share with Matty The Damned and several other members of AIDSmeds. Read it at your peril: it's bound to disturb and provoke you. But that's the reason behind its existence.
"Blessed with brains, talent & gorgeous tits": A Bette Midler quote.
"He may be Tina's bitch, but I'm not his": Is a quote from one of my Spin Cycle articles. The context is how I was coming to grips with a failed relationship with a closet Crystal Methamphetamine addict.
This has nothing to do with anything we've discussed.
And yes, the administrators and moderators are fully aware of The Spin Cycle and what is contained therein.
NOT INTERESTED IN SOMEONE WHO WOULD ATTACK ME SO MUCH TO TAKE THE TIME TO READ THEIR BLOG...ESPECIALLY IF YOUR REMARKS ARE ANY INDICATION OF SAID BLOGS CONTENT. THANKS ANYWAY.....
Anyway, as I explained to your "son" LOL (NAMBLA could be used back at you) what I post here is not a judgement of others, but merely my take on the topic at hand.....so please, save your judgements for someone who doesn't have the intellect to defend themselves. as those are probably your main victims.
My relationship with Jaser is not subject to your speculation, and I sincerely resent what you wrote there.
NOR ARE MY MENTOR RELATIONSHIPS AMMO TO BE USED AGAINST ME. TAKE WHAT YOU THROW OUT AS A MAN...FROM A MAN WHO CAN TAKE IT.....
Unlike you and the relationships you enjoyed with men old enough to be your father (if not grandfather), we are not friends. I am his adviser, confidant and mentor. There is now nor has there ever been anything in any way inappropriate in my dealings with him.
You can attempt to "smutty" it up with speculation, but I can assure you that you are and will always be mistaken in that regard.
NO NEED FOR ME TO SMUTTY IT UP NOR DID I INTEND THAT, ONLY WAS SHOWING HOW IT WORKS BOTH WAYS....
What you go on to tell about yourself at the age of 18 is what I discovered a bit earlier...they were there to share their life experiences and I learned alot from my more "mature" friends.
What I describe after I turned 18 is this:
However, when I was 18 and supporting myself, I generally chose sex partners aged anything from five to twenty years older than me. They simply had finer skills, and i stuck around long enough to learn the subtleties of social graces along with being exposed to way much Gershwin and Porter. However, when it came time to choose lovers (as they were called back in the Disco era), I selected from peers or near peers. Sex is one thing, sharing one's life with someone who was my equal was absolutely essential.
I state explicitly that I chose older men as sex partners once I turned 18. You are categorical in maintaining that those were platonic relationships. I don't see the connection.
DONT UNDERSTAND THIS STATEMENT..... IF IT WAS MY RELATIONSHIPS YOU ARE SPEAKING OF, YES THEY WERE THEN AND REMAIN NOW PLATONIC....
It's a sad commentary on gay life that we look to one age group for sex and consider others older as our love interests....well, I should take out the 'we' from that statement as such was not the case with me.
Actually, that's not what I say either. I say that I preferred older men as sexual partners but chose peers for more enduring relationships.
THAT IS EXACTLY AS YOU SAID IT AND THE WAY I VIEW THE SUBJECT IN GENERAL...IT HAS ALOT TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL TOPIC IN THIS CONVERSATION
Most of what you write gives me support for what this topic is all about....a generation gap and the differences that drive us to how we conduct ourselves, especially where sex and seroconversion are concerned.
Anything i discuss in my personal history of this time predates the AIDS crisis. I turned 20 in 1980 and didn't even equate sex with HIV until a few years after that. The first time someone insisted on my wearing a condom was in 1984. I remember it exactly. I thought it was some sick joke.
SORRY THAT YOU MISTOOK SOMEONE BEING SAFE WITH YOU, SAD
As an aside, I am a religious serosorter, and my preferred age for sexual partners is from 35-45, pretty much as it's always been.
Anyway, I'm not here to argue with you or others. I am only here to give my comments and opinions. So in the future, please do the same and hold your negativity to yourself.
For someone who doesn't want an argument, you certainly come out with both barrels cocked.
AS I STATED, IM A VETERAN OF MANY SUCH FORUMS, I COME ARMED AND READY TO SHOOT IN PROTECTION OF MY COMMENTS.....IF I FEEL NO DANGER, THOSE GUNS REMAIN IN MY HOLSTER.
Thanks and thanks for such a welcome!!!
I do wish to make one thing extremely clear, because this is most important:
I have not now nor have ever suggested that you are a pedophile, irrespective of your rather novel cut-off date. But I am resolute that teenage boys (13-17) are off limits to adult men as anything other than mentors.
It is impossible to be "friends" with someone who is not your sociological equal
PURELY YOUR INTERUPTATION OF THE SUBJECT AND ONE I DONT AGREE WITH..ENOUGH WITH THE NAMBLA ASSOCIATIONS.....
well that was not my original intention, but so be it
glad to see my words do have an effect!!.
I'm glad you're happy having upset Jaser. You must be very proud making a 16-year-old upset.
AS HE SPOKE, I HAD NO INDICATION OF HIS AGE....I CONSIDER IT A LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR HIM...YOU PLAY ROUGH, YOU WILL RECEIVE ROUGH.....PLAY NICE AND YOU ARE WELCOME IN MY SANDBOX ANY TIME!!
Being a veteran of several message boards, this is to be expected when different views are expressed...will i lose sleep over it....not in the least and hope you don't either.
Sleep tight, I'll make sure Jaser gets calm down now.
AS ONLY A MENTOR WOULD....FROM HIS LANGUAGE AND DEMEANOR, HE IS CALLOUS BEYOND HIS YEARS
Why I thought this forum would be any different than other gay populated boards is beyond me!! LOL have a good night.....
And, do you kiss your ..... whatever with that mouth?Huh
The joke is "mother". Jaser has a mother, and a boyfriend, too (of his own age). I'm quite sure he kisses them both. I wouldn't worry about his vocabulary, it's standard teenager stuff with a precocious edge.
NOT ANY TEENAGER I ASSOCIATE WITH....I WASNT RAISED THAT WAY AND DONT APPRECIATE IT AT ALL........PRECOCIOUS OR NOT
He's a great kid coping better than most men twice his age, but he's still a kid. Engaging in a verbal spat with a 16-year old is contemptable. As an adult, you should know better.
AGAIN, YOU CHOSE TO SPAR AND DEGRADE ONE OF THE BIG BOYS, I SUGGEST HE GROW A THICK SKIN...LIFE IN THE REAL WORLD ISNT AS CALM AND ACCEPTING OF A FOUL MOUTH CHILD.....iF HE ACTED AS HIS AGE DICTATES, MY RESPONSES WOULDNT HAVE BEEN WHAT THEY WERE.
BY NO MEANS AM I A PRUDE OR FOR THAT MATTER A CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST, BUT THAT ANGER IS TRIGGERED BY INTERNAL CONFLICT...AS A MENTOR PERHAPS YOU COULD ACT IN A WAY THAT WOULD HELP HIM LEARN BETTER COMMUNICATION FOR HIS UPCOMING ENCOUNTERS IN THE REAL WORLD RATHER THAN TO JUST DEFEND HIS PRECOCIOUS BEHAVIOR AND TEMPERMENT.
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As a veteran of several message boards, you should know how to use the quote function.
MtD
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And as a lurker for several months you should know better.
Milker.
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As a veteran of several message boards, you should know how to use the quote function.
MtD
Brings whole meaning to the term "purple prose".
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Alright alright alright.
I'm done.
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And I think you are a young bitter man with a lot to learn about life, which you will.
And you are a foolish newcomer who with a lot to learn about our Mouse. If you had any idea of the respect and esteem in which he is held around here, much less why he is so held, you'd eat your own head with shame and embarrassment.
NEWCOMER, YES, FOOLISH NO. IF THE PAST DAYS CONVERSATIONS ARE ANY INDICATION OF HIS NORMAL BEHAVIOR, I HAVE NO DESIRE TO KNOW AND RESPECT HIM. RESPECT GOES BOTH WAYS...HE CAME AT ME WITH A GROWL AND NOT BEING ONE TO TURN AND RUN FROM SUCH ENCOUNTERS, I GAVE IT MY BEST. NO SHAME NOR EMBARRASSMENT HERE...AGAIN, RESPECT GIVEN EARNS RESPECT IN TURN.
You need to understand that the Smaller One has been with us since he was 14, that's over two years. You have been here for a much shorter amount of time and would do well to keep a civil and respectful tongue in your head.
THATS YOUR OPINION AND DONT HOLD YOUR BREATHE EXPECTING THAT FROM ME, IT JUST WONT HAPPEN AT THIS STAGE.
AS I TOLD B, THE MORE YOU TOLERATE AND ENCOURAGE SUCH CLASSLESS BEHAVIOR FROM A TEEN, THE MORE DISSERVICE YOU ARE DOING TO HIM IN THE REAL WORLD WHEN HE DOESNT HAVE YOU TO BACK UP HIS RAGE.
iN CLOSING, I BY NO MEANS MEANT TO DISS HIM, IF YOU READ BACK TO HIS ORIGINAL POST TO ME, HE WAS THE ONE WHO CAME OUT WITH BOTH BARRELS BLAZING.....I POSTED WHAT I DID IN DEFENSE OF MY OPINIONS AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO.
I DO GIVE HIM CREDIT (AND SAY SO WITH ALL RESPECT) FOR BEING FACED WITH THIS CHALLENGE AT SUCH A YOUNG AGE, BUT FOR THAT REASON ALONE, HIS APPROACH SHOULD BE SERIOUSLY QUESTIONED AND CORRECTED BY THOSE OF YOU WHO CONSIDER YOURSELVES HIS MENTORS.
MtD
(Who will only tolerate so much dissin' of the Little Man)
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when all else fails, go for personal attacks.
each message board is different in function use, give me a bit of time, i'll figure it out.
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when all else fails, go for personal attacks.
each message board is different in function use, give me a bit of time, i'll figure it out.
This is the HIV positive/AIDS board. Requires thinking.
Milker.
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spead that word milker, it is needed elsewhere...........
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As a veteran of several message boards, you should know how to use the quote function.
MtD
LMAO ;D ;D ;D ;D of course im drunk ...
-josh
(who would laugh sober also :-*)
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There are too many cans of Crazy on the board this week.
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She'll never make it on the cover of a magazine and she doesn't need to.
Never? ??? Really? How on earth do you know this with certainty?
(Meant to ask you this earlier but anyhue)
Edited to simplify
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I'm part of the "older" generation but I sympathize with the younger generation. Ideas that come from some LTS that I don't agree with include:
Younger people don't think AIDS is a big deal. Maybe it's living in NC but no one I know wouldn't freak out if they found out they had HIV. There are people I know who wouldn't want me to touch them or hold their baby if they knew I was HIV+. If HIV is no big deal then why do so many people on here get turned down for sex or dumped when they disclose their HIV status? It's still a big deal.
Education is going to stop HIV. The reality is many people knew all about HIV before they were infected. They knew about condoms. They knew friends and lovers that died. They became infected anyway, and I'm part of "they". Educating people about HIV and condoms is important but it won't solve the problem. It's not all about ignorance, it's about human nature.
You're naive to think medications are going to save you. If it wasn't for medications the LTS wouldn't be here. When I was diagnosed I was told I might live 5 years. Yet here I am 14 years later and my life is good. I've had side-effects and problems but the reality is 95% of the time I'm fine. Being told "just you wait, you're going to get sick" isn't productive. Medications keep improving and no one knows what the future holds. Being told I had 5 years screwed me up, particularly financially.
You don't appreciate my sacrifice. Respect is something that is given freely, you can't demand it. It's commendable to tell your story and the story of people who are no longer around to tell theirs. People will respond to honesty and true sacrifice. Telling people "you owe me" or "you're too young to understand" isn't going to earn any sympathy. As the saying goes "Get off the cross, we need the wood."
Ford,
You have restored my faith in humanity with your eloquent and thoughtful words on the subject! If your were on American Idol I'd have voted for ya ; )
Well said! Appreciate you sharing your perspective!
Much Respect to you!
Wesley
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You sound like a walking, talking version of the NAMBLA literature I remember reading around 1978. There's a word for men in their 30s who consort with teenage boys, and it's called pedophile.
Bucko:
This is flamebaiting, pure and simple -- and you know it.
Yes, buca45 says that he took to older gay men as a part of his experience as a rural gay teen and indicates that this was an affirmative factor in his development. Such relationships are what we've encouraged between young members and "older" members of these Forums. To accuse him of sounding "like a walking, talking version" of NAMBLA literature is totally off base and downright nasty, in light of the fact that you've been an effective older role model yourself.
This is the second time you've crossed the line this week. Consider this a second warning -- next time, it's straight to Time Out.
Tim Horn
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Without calling names and just giving a personal opinion...If I found out that some 30 or 35 yo man was hanging around my 13-14yo nephew..I would be like..wtf?! I would totally lose it. That..as someone said..IS creepy..and dangerous...Joe
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OK folks, I suggest that it's not necessary for Buca and those who have gotten pissed off at him to exchange any more tits for tats. That just continues more of the same at a rising level of nastiness. So I am asking ALL to cease and desist from it right now.
For those who care to I suggest re-focusing on the theme of the thread. With regard to that I want to say that we are just at the beginning of dealing with the challenge of multi-generations living with HIV. As each new generation comes along, with everything else they need to learn, in a sense the wheel of learning about living with HIV has to be re-invented for them. That's challenging enough in itself. What makes it even more so here in the U.S. is this is a country that is so f****d about sexuality in general that it makes it even harder to deal with anything that is sexually related.
Note for example how often the word "admit" is used when referring to someone's non-straight sexuality whether person is well known or not. Admit is like confessing something. How about "acknowledge" as an alternative. The choice of a word is important.
So in the context of how I see American society malfunctioning in general, it's not surprising that a new generation is getting short changed on sexually-related information. The thing is EVERYONE is getting short-changed on that one.
I suggest we need to develop and implement effective ways to reach people of all ages about HIV issues. And we have to do that in the context of a country which still stigmatizes those with HIV in a mindset of "us" and "them," and which country has never given a rat's ass about the epidemic as a whole, and just wants it to go away so they can go shopping, look young forever, make lots of money in the stock market, and otherwise live in non-reality shows instead of what I would call real life.
So this is a hard job and it's not made any easier by people pontificating and sniping at each other. But maybe really that's just another of the obstacles we need to figure out how to overcome.
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I think you're a condescending asshole that's way too impressed with himself and his own opinions.
Wow, and this thread had been an amazing read for awhile. Mouse, if someone insults you, use the "Report to moderators" link -- don't post an insult in return. As far as the mods are concerned, caustic comments in response to someone else's caustic comments are just as bad as the original comments. They can lead to Time-Outs.
Please use the moderator link in the future.
Thanks,
Peter
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On my personal experience, I was never close to any gay man older than me, until I was 18 (Adult according to my country laws). But in the same way that I think that a young person must grow up in an environment of different cultures (And that is what a exchange students programs are meant to), I think that having older lesbians and gays around you can be very benificial, from -multiple points of view, like Respecting People, learning to behave in a given environment (just like lions with younger lions), learning how to socialize in the environment to which they will belong.
A critical aspect of this (specially fo gay guys, affected by the HIV) is that if we would see the effect of certain dangerous behavior, then we would be able to not make certaing decissions. For instance: A family that sees a relative dying because smoking and lung cancer, may reject the idea of smoking, improving health. Very probably, I wouldn't have engaged in certain behaviors if i had seen gay people (that would have eased the taumatic process of accepting owns sexuality), and perhaps If I would have seen gay friends dying of AIDS, I would have had a better vision.
But the fact that we are non-heterosexuals, implies that we challenge a society (In the same way women and black people did), and thefor there is an inherent effort to reject differences. That is called non-tolerance in front of diversity
Alex
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Bucko:
This is flamebaiting, pure and simple -- and you know it.
Yes, buca45 says that he took to older gay men as a part of his experience as a rural gay teen and indicates that this was an affirmative factor in his development. Such relationships are what we've encouraged between young members and "older" members of these Forums. To accuse him of sounding "like a walking, talking version" of NAMBLA literature is totally off base and downright nasty, in light of the fact that you've been an effective older role model yourself.
This is the second time you've crossed the line this week. Consider this a second warning -- next time, it's straight to Time Out.
Tim Horn
Tim-
I shall not attempt to justify my words over the last several days, as both you and Peter have found them in breech of etiquette. As I have no wish to be denied access to the support I receive here at AIDSmeds, I'll thank you for your feedback and acknowledge this as my second warning.
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Wanted to just clarify (can't edit my post above - time's up I guess) that I agree with the perceptions that exist which Iggy noted, but in no way agree with most of the characterizations as facts or truths in any way shape or form.
Mike :)
(who found this thread interesting up until fights were provoked)
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frankly all i care about is that we're all still here, (just about) and coping, (just about). whether newbie or lts, gay or straight, we all are aiming for the same thing, to stay alive. yes of course we're going to disagree, bitch and kvetch, because we're all human...just having the virus doesnt mean we'll get on/agree neccessarily. whats important is that we give a damn.
i do ;D
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well said, tigger !
You know how your parents always said "we don't want you to make the same mistakes we made".....they wanted you to be safe and protected. But you had to make some mistakes, in order to learn and grow. I think that is the way a lot of us long-termers feel, we just hate to see the young ones make such a big mistake....the difference is, unlike the ones your parents typically warn you about, this shit can kill you.
One of the things that gives me the most joy from our AMG's is the diversity:
young and old, and we all get along great together and have a wonderful time and a lot of laughs. (except some of us can't get out of bed the next day...) ;)
hugs,
Alan
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OK folks, I suggest that it's not necessary for Buca and those who have gotten pissed off at him to exchange any more tits for tats. That just continues more of the same at a rising level of nastiness. So I am asking ALL to cease and desist from it right now.
For those who care to I suggest re-focusing on the theme of the thread. With regard to that I want to say that we are just at the beginning of dealing with the challenge of multi-generations living with HIV. As each new generation comes along, with everything else they need to learn, in a sense the wheel of learning about living with HIV has to be re-invented for them. That's challenging enough in itself. What makes it even more so here in the U.S. is this is a country that is so f****d about sexuality in general that it makes it even harder to deal with anything that is sexually related.
Note for example how often the word "admit" is used when referring to someone's non-straight sexuality whether person is well known or not. Admit is like confessing something. How about "acknowledge" as an alternative. The choice of a word is important.
So in the context of how I see American society malfunctioning in general, it's not surprising that a new generation is getting short changed on sexually-related information. The thing is EVERYONE is getting short-changed on that one.
I suggest we need to develop and implement effective ways to reach people of all ages about HIV issues. And we have to do that in the context of a country which still stigmatizes those with HIV in a mindset of "us" and "them," and which country has never given a rat's ass about the epidemic as a whole, and just wants it to go away so they can go shopping, look young forever, make lots of money in the stock market, and otherwise live in non-reality shows instead of what I would call real life.
So this is a hard job and it's not made any easier by people pontificating and sniping at each other. But maybe really that's just another of the obstacles we need to figure out how to overcome.
Heya Andy,
I hadn't looked at it this way before, but I agree that we are constantly having to reinvent the wheel as things evolve over time. That was an interesting take on the subject and I would agree.
Personally, I know as I have learned so much over this last year and a half my beliefs have changed. As an example when I was first diagnosed I thought how could anyone have children or put them at risk. Now, I realize that the risk has become fairly insignificant if the proper precautions are taken. I'm merely using this as one example. And a lot of that has to do with newer technology, scientific studies and it's still constantly changing!
Tigger, I would also agree with what you've said. HIV sure makes for strange bedfellows eh? : ) We've all been thrown into the mix and it's true that we aren't all going to ever agree on everything. Hell, if we could do that then we'd have to strive for world peace too ; )
Anyways, I have found this topic interesting overall despite some of the other issues. Some people have put a great deal of thought into their posts. I see it as a step in the right direction.
Wesley