So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With You?

[thunter34]

 I've been a member of these forums for several years now, and in that time I've seen themes return over and over again.  Questions about disclosure, and questions about the motives people have for their behavior.  Sometimes the burning question of the day is, "What type of safe sex campaign if most effective?"  Should we attempt to lessen people's fears in the hopes that more will test, or should we scare the shit of them so they won't put themselves at risk in the first place?  So many questions...

Well, I have one for you:  Why didn't the safe sex lessons work with you?

People on here are constantly wringing their hands and acting like the Cassandras of Coitus with this whole, "When will they ever learn?" attitude.  So, why didn't you learn?  Huh?  The message about condoms has been around for decades now, and precious few of us on here can say that we were infected before people knew better how to protect themselves...and yet we got infected anyway.  Why?

To hear many, it's sad tales of either oral sex or that dreaded one-time condom break.  But I'll be blunt with you:  I don't really believe you.  I think you did just what I did, and I question how much credibility we have as messengers when we didn't heed the call ourselves.  Sure, we can be of help to one another as we navigate through the hospital halls and bureaucracy now that we ARE positive, but how can we really help deliver any kind of meaningful message of prevention to others if we won't face up to what led up to us ignoring the warnings ourselves?

I spelled out my issues here: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=36905.0

I personally don't know that any message of any kind would have prevented me from ending up exactly where I did.  

So what about you?

[drewm]

I thought, and hoped, it would never happen to me. I cannot really explain it beyond this.

[Matty the Damned]

I never thought about it. Most likely because I had an arm full of speed a good amount of the time.

And also I was a 20 something what knew everything.

MtD

[komnaes]

Simple - I was mildly suicide because of a depression that I failed to do anything about, but was too chicken shit to actually do anything immediate. So there I began a pattern of self destructive behaviors that involved unsafe sex.

[buginme2]

You don't have to be depressed, or naieve, or high to have had unsafe sex.  If that were the case there would be a lot less unplanned pregnancy's.  Everyone has had or will have unsafe sex at some point.

However on that note, I had a really fun night of sex, drugs, and rock and roll (or cheezy techno) that ended me up here.

[HollyStar]

Hmm...I guess I threw knowledge and instincts out the window for love. I trusted him but at the same time I knew that I should have protected myself. I should have insisted upon condoms, instead of trusting. No one to blame for my situation but myself. The strange thing is that in sex-ed class so many years ago, the instructor had an HIV+ man come in and share his story with the class. All of us 7th graders were curious. Many wondered how he got infected and his story was scary and filled with sorrow. There was something about this man and his story that really touched me and has since stayed with me. The irony for me, is that after all of that, I end up as one of his comrades so-to-speak. And of course I never thought it would happen to me. Heck, I never even thought about it. We learn about HIV, safe sex, STD's but it's hard to teach someone self confidence and how to take a stand for themselves. Sometimes as we all know, emotions (or hormones) override intellect. I don't have any suggestions on how to get the message to 'sink' in for more people.

[tednlou2]

Trusted a long-time friend who deceived me. 

[Miss Philicia]

I actually had only three condom free experiences between my first anal sex in early 1988 and my diagnosis in 1993 (the other two were actually both in 1990), the rest of the time I was quite fastidious with condom use.  It helped that there were walking corpses with KS on the streets to see.  However, each of those three possibilities also involved a lot of heavy drinking, coke and/or ecstasy... and probably all three at the same time.  Considering the high levels of partying I did pre-diagnosis I figure three fuck ups isn't that horrible.

I don't recall encountering an official safe sex campaign until I moved to NYC, but that would have been in late 1990. Previous to that I was dependent on word of mouth and what you could gleam in the mainstream press (hooray Richmond Times-Dispatch!), but definitely by 1986 we knew to use a rubber. At least among us young girls at the time I think many of us stuck to oral sex, which is why I didn't have anal sex until I'd already been sexually active for five years.  

I'd still say a safer sex message worked better during that period because the fear was simply more pervasive.

[skeebo1969]

    If I used a condom it was because I didn't want to get someone pregnant;  protection against STD's was a secondary thought, if that.    

[Matty the Damned]

Trusted a long-time friend who deceived me. 

To agree to have unprotected sex is to consent to the possibility of being infected with HIV and/or another STD.

MtD

[Jeff G]

Its been so long ago but I think at the time I was diagnosed there were no safe sex messages or campaigns in the south where I lived .

I only date poz guys now and never use condoms .

[tednlou2]

To agree to have unprotected sex is to consent to the possibility of being infected with HIV and/or another STD.

MtD

Now, I didn't say it was unprotected.  I was for the condom before he was against it.  When I talked about the situation here before, I got the emoticon eye-roll, so I didn't go into details this time.  I've had my share of bareback sex, so I'm not trying to cum off as some angel.  I just didn't get infected then.  It was when I tried to do all the right things by insisting on condoms--even with a long-time friend, and he took the condom off in the dark without me knowing.  And, his cock was so big that I'm sure it made so many tears in my very tight and very virgin ass.  Okay, now back to the regularly scheduled eye-rolls      

[Matty the Damned]

Now, I didn't say it was unprotected.  I was for the condom before he was against it.  When I talked about the situation here before, I got the emoticon eye-roll, so I didn't go into details this time.  I've had my share of bareback sex, so I'm not trying to cum off as some angel.  I just didn't get infected then.  It was when I tried to do all the right things by insisting on condoms--even with a long-time friend, and he took the condom off in the dark without me knowing.  And, his cock was so big that I'm sure it made so many tears in my very tight and very virgin ass.  Okay, now back to the regularly scheduled eye-rolls      

I don't believe you. I think you have made that up.

MtD

[BT65]

Honestly, in the town I grew up in, there was no sex ed.  I went to private school for the first two years of high school also, so of course nothing about sex there.  And to tell the truth, I didn't even think about condoms when I was overlly-sexually active.  And of course, there was the period of prostituting/stripping where I mostly cared about getting money to shoot up my arm, intead of condoms.  Who thinks about using condoms in those circumstances? 
Honestly, in all my years of being sexually active, I believe condoms were only used a few times, if that.  So, the answer to the question is 1) there was no sex ed; 2) I was too strung out to care.

[littleprince]

I was so drunk you could have shoved anything up my .....  condom or not.

[mecch]

modified:

My safe sex rules worked for 20+ years.  

I hope this thread doesn't serve as an invitation to judge people's transmission stories.

The OP set the tone:
"But I'll be blunt with you:  I don't really believe you.  I think you did just what I did, and I question how much credibility we have as messengers when we didn't heed the call ourselves."

Another basis of this sites "credibility" is that there are many different kinds of people who are HIV+, many different ways the person allowed himself/herself to be vulnerable to transmission (drugs, I didnt care, I wanted it, accident, betrayal, ignorance, blah blah blah blah blah) even though there are only a few actual transmission routes.

I was really helped by people here who said, well, don't eat yourself up over the mistake (whatever it was).  Learn from it, if possible, or put it aside.  Most important thing is to accept the situation today and move forward etc etc etc.

[Dachshund]

 I've had my share of bareback sex, so I'm not trying to cum off as some angel.     

case closed

[bocker3]

I have no idea why...  it worked for a long time, then it stopped.  It wasn't because of drugs or booze -- as I stopped that in 1989.  I have nothing to "excuse" my lapse of judgement -- actually, lapses of judgement.  Not tons of lapses, but enough of them.  So who really knows......

Oh wait, -- because sex feels good and I am human.  Yeah, that's it.

Mike

[surf18]

my ignorance really was "oh just dont cum in me" so yea i had alot of raw sex but i always said dont cum in me. rightttttt like that works. how many guys you been with that are quiet cummers and you dont even know they came. that happens. or im hammered and cant tell if he shot in me
or the two times i trusted someone other than my bf to shoot in me after my last negative time.
i was one of the ones that was aware of this hiv but thought id never get it.

[CaptCarl]

   A vindictive control-freak of a partner gave it to me. Then he convinced me that I gave it to him so he could use it against me and keep me in line when I would try to stand up for myself. Didn't work too well though. Eventually I left him anyway, and he's been dead for 16 years now....

CaptCarl

[randym431]

So why? Well...a little of everything.

When society tells you, you are worthless and nobody, you begin to believe it. Like a never ending drum that you hear pounding loudly every day. Then add in leaders like GW Bush staring into the camera, at his 2004 "State of the Union" speech, with that look of pure evil in his eyes, pointing out "the gays" are our enemies and the nation should do everything it can to protect marriage from "those people".

Mix in some Jerry Falwell, Jessy Helms and Pat Roberson blaming every natural disaster on "the gays".
Toss in how most of us were treated in school.
Then include how some of our own family members treat us, or more so ignore the obvious.
All that, and more, sets the stage.

Next.. there is the fact with meeting other gay people usually happens is a less than desirable environment.
A bar, the cruise loop, some book store or restroom.
And don't forget that great power of sexual desire in itself.

I've often heard a gay guy saying "I'd risk AIDS to screw that hunk!".
Another a hard fact... many gays do not respect their own kind.
While we share being gay, many tend to accept the brain washing feed to them by the Jessy Helms, the Pat Roberson's and GW Bush's of the world.
I don't know how to put it, but they (some gays) somehow judge other gays in a negative light, all while members of the same club, they feel detached from the basic understanding of their own kind.

With all this on our shoulders, self respect falls secondary.
And many gay people knowingly, and against their better judgment, let their guard down. Take risks. Don't care. Never believe it can happen to them. Or worse of all, have this thinking if it happens (HIV) that they deserved it. It was inevitable.
Then you have those that actively seek catching HIV.
And too, those that in todays world believe modern medicine has cured HIV, or pretty much rendered HIV harmless.
Simply a minor inconvenience concerning medication.

Myself, I trusted someone that knew they were positive. And I did not know. Someone that knew all to well but chose to ignored their risk to me. Someone that might as well pulled out a knife and stabbed me in the chest, believing I too should share their personal grief and life sentence.

But finally and most of all, I blame me. Why would I ever take the risk. Why I would believe my luck could never run out. Why I lost respect for myself and well being. Why I would think my own loss of self respect would never have any effect on others close to me.

Yes... when you are told most every day you are a secondary citizen. Not worthy. Flawed. Not equal or deserving. When facing that ever since we first realized we ourselves were in fact gay, that does have a huge negative effect on a person.
That starts the ball rolling. The rest, somehow, does seem inevitable.

And it never stops. Every day we still hear politicians and leaders telling us we do not deserve to be happy. Be equal. Marry someone we love. Do not deserve our own private life and the right to a given freedom everyone else takes for granted. Every day is a battle, and it takes its toll.

Then comes a day for many, when we get to the point that we don't care. That we deserve what we get.
And we take the risks, despite knowing better.
And here we are. Trying to cope and somehow make sense of it all, on the "living with HIV" forum...

[DanMo]

I started having sex last October. I thought I was practicing safe sex. That's why I was so shocked to have received a reactive swab.

At first I was worried that it had been a condom break, but that happened a week before I got tested, and I learned later on that that is too soon to detect. So, after having thought about it, I'm guessing it was in December... I dont remember everything that happened, but knowing myself I would have insisted on a condom. I do remember that I might have briefly inserted the head of my penis during foreplay. The only explanation I can come up with was that he took off the condom without me knowing

I guess for safe sex to work, I should have reached down and checked occasionally to feel if the guy still had the condom on.

[CaptCarl]

Randy-

    A most Excellent post! Very well put.

[woodshere]

Between 1985 and when I was infected, somewhere around 2001 as best I can tell, I sucked a lot of dick, I mean a lot.  Bookstores, parks, rest stops, cheap hotels, bars anywhere I could find an available cock, but I only got fucked a few times and as best i can remember they were all with condoms.  I believe I was infected by a guy from Boston I hooked up with a couple of times at the Hyatt in downtown Louisville when he was in town on business.  He fucked me raw both times.  We never even discussed status or condoms.  He just flipped me over and slammed it in, no lube just the old fashion spit.  And I loved it.

I can't blame it on drugs, booze,the invincibility of youth or the outside influences of politics or religion.  It was far more personal.  All I can figure is that I had and for that matter have a strong desire to please my partner, who always must be the top, and was fulfilling my desire to be wanted, a validation of my self-worth.  Pretty sad when you think about it, most likely due to my father's "loving" child raising skills.  I am tyring to work on that but it is difficult when you like sex and the role I play as much as I do.  The good thing, it is more about pleasure than validation.

In my years I have come to believe that so much of people's sexual activities are directly related to a mind set of some sort.  It has to be, how else do you explain the guy who backs his ass up to a glory hole and takes 10/15 loads up his ass.  It can't be for pleasure for I would think after about the 5th or 6th dick your ass is so stretched that pleasureable feeling experienced from getting fucked is gone.

[auspoz]

You don't believe me? Well walk a year or two or 20 in my shoes. I do not judge barebacking. I did once, but not anymore. What diagnosis meant for me though was a long period of disbelief: "but I was careful every time. how, how, how?"

I never once consented to anal sex without a condom. Never. Not once. I insisted on condoms for anal sex every single time. And if you don't believe that, well, meh.

Of course, it seems that didn't work for me, so I have spent (and continue to spend) days wondering why. And the answer I have come to thus far? It was the context. I had a lot of casual/anonymous sex. And either it slipped, broke or was taken off, I have no idea. At first I tried to convince myself it was orally transmitted, but that doesn't seem to have data to back it up. I trusted in situations where trust isn't discussed.  

So seems to me, that I'm here because I had sex sometime when someone fucked me, and something happened to the condom without my knowledge and they came in me. They probably didn't even know they were positive.

I urge you to consider all possibilities.

auspoz.

[GSOgymrat]

I can't blame my infection on self esteem issues or drugs or lack of education or being deceived or being young and naive-- all more understandable reasons than mine. I was just lazy. When I was single I never had an unsafe encounter... not one. I was so detailed and controlled in my sex practices I didn't worry about HIV, even when I had sex with HIV+ men. I worried about herpes because I didn't feel I could protect myself against that. When I got into a long term relationship I messed up one time because we were on vacation in an outdoor hot tub at a resort. It was cold, I didn't want to go back inside to get a condom and we fucked each other in the bubbling water under the stars without condoms. It was a very romantic way to get an incurable disease. So for me it was getting too comfortable, letting my guard down and being lazy.

[Buckmark]

I have to step into the way back machine to remember this (step aside, Mr. Peabody and Sherman).  Ironically, it was my first time having anal sex.  It was not like I planned it, as I never have had (and still don't have) much interest in anal sex.  I was seeing this guy who lives in Syracuse, N.Y. (I lived in Binghamton N.Y. at the time), and was visiting him one weekend.  We were fooling around, one thing led to another, and before I knew it he was in me, and then it was over.  

While I don't recall safe-sex campaigns at the time (Binghamton NY in 1988?), I do recall knowing that I should have insisted on him using a condom.  Why didn't I?  Perhaps low self-esteem.  Or just desperate to have a relationship.  Afraid to speak up for myself, for fear that he wouldn't want to continue to be with me (which, it turns out, he didn't anyway).

This is a good thread, Tim.  While beating ourselves up over how we became infected with HIV isn't helpful, it is helpful to understand how it happened -- and in most cases, how we allowed ourselves to become infected.  For me I think it was a combination of factors:     I think I was terribly naive about sex, and in some ways I still am, though not HIV.  Low self-esteem (thanks to Randym for doing a great job of describing how many gays feel that way).  Desire to have a relationship, probably to the point of co-dependency, and confusing sex with intimacy.

Henry

[denb45]

I started using condom back in 87 up until 95, and then went to bareback sex, I got sick & tried of the condoms breaking on me all of the time, I broke more of them, then I ever was able wear, but whatever
works, everybody is different I suppose.....

 just cause I don't like them doesn't mean that others do, if a guy wants to wear one that's his choice and vise-versa, I mean come on, were all consenting adults right?

and we all know how I got infected, no sex , it was sharing a dirty rig, I knew what I was doing. but, I didn't care, I was too dam high & having way too much fun  

[denb45]

  A vindictive control-freak of a partner gave it to me. Then he convinced me that I gave it to him so he could use it against me and keep me in line when I would try to stand up for myself. Didn't work too well though. Eventually I left him anyway, and he's been dead for 16 years now....

CaptCarl

  shit Carl, stop it dude, your gonna make me cry   That is some fucked up ass shit   there were so many things I wanted to say & tell you when bob & I met you and norm, but I just couldn't get the words
out to you, I too had 2 of them types of control-freak of a partners, for some reason I guess I didn't learn the 1st time, but they are both DEAD now

[geobee]

I did get HIV through oral sex -- and don't really care who believes me or not.  Sure, I've had anal sex, but never unprotected, and I was almost always a top, and it was years ago.  In July 2009, after at least 2 years of not having anal sex (and testing repeatedly negative), I had several episodes of rimming and oral sex where guys came in my mouth.  I got ARS (rash on face, feeling like crap, etc.) within 2 weeks.  I went to get tested for antibodies and was negative.  Doc told me not to worry and sent me home.  But I felt something was wrong and paid for a separate VL test the next day through Labcorp and that came back positive -- so I was in the "window" where you're still antibody negative but are carrying a VL.  About 3 weeks after my antibody test came back positive and I went on meds.  Since I was newly infected, my VL at the time was high -- spiking to 1,000,000 but coming down to 400,000 before I started meds.  My T-Cells were also high -- about 900.  I got undetectable pretty quick (16 weeks) and have stayed there.  Fortunately my T-Cells have also stayed high, at around 900.  I was passed a resistant virus, so I couldn't take Atripla, and take Reyataz/Norvir/Truvada.  I was lucky to have good insurance, Kaiser pays for most of it.

Having said all that, I did have a LOT of oral sex.  Like, uh, I was kind of compulsive about it.  This is embarrassing to say, but it's the truth.  My docs at SF General and Kaiser said it's rare to get HIV this way, but it does happen.  Like I said, don't care if people believe me or not.  I know the truth and that's enough.  

[auspoz]

I'm hearing you. Not in my case, but I hear you.

auspoz.

[CaptCarl]

shit Carl, stop it dude, your gonna make me cry   That is some fucked up ass shit   there were so many things I wanted to say & tell you when bob & I met you and norm, but I just couldn't get the words
out to you 

   I actually just found this all out recently from his sister. After over two decades of feeling varying dgrees of guilt over it. When I found out the truth, I was surprised that I felt absolutely nothing about it. Nada. Zilch. Zero. I guess after that much time goes by, hearing something like that doesn't change anything, so wha's the point in getting worked up over something that, in reality, doesn't matter? Don't cry over it Den, I certainly don't.
   Oh and BTW, you will have ample opportunity to say the many things you wanted to say last time you were here

CaptCarl

[denb45]

   I actually just found this all out recently from his sister. After over two decades of feeling varying dgrees of guilt over it. When I found out the truth, I was surprised that I felt absolutely nothing about it. Nada. Zilch. Zero. I guess after that much time goes by, hearing something like that doesn't change anything, so wha's the point in getting worked up over something that, in reality, doesn't matter? Don't cry over it Den, I certainly don't.
   Oh and BTW, you will have ample opportunity to say the many things you wanted to say last time you were here

CaptCarl

  fair enough dude 

[wolfter]

My initial response was WTF?   It's akin to who deserved it back in the 80's.  Since it wasn't posted in the LTS forum I won't be too critical.  I don't know why safe sex education doesn't work.....it's beyond my scope of understanding.  Why add the divide to whom was more deserving?  The majority of my friends were little sluts who did things I only wished I had the nerve to do.  I was and am very conservative concerning sex and never thought I'd end up with disease. 

Perhaps I read this post with the wrong mindset. 

[woodshere]

My initial response was WTF?   It's akin to who deserved it back in the 80's.  Since it wasn't posted in the LTS forum I won't be too critical.  I don't know why safe sex education doesn't work.....it's beyond my scope of understanding.  Why add the divide to whom was more deserving?  The majority of my friends were little sluts who did things I only wished I had the nerve to do.  I was and am very conservative concerning sex and never thought I'd end up with disease.  

Perhaps I read this post with the wrong mindset.  

I think so.  I don't think anywhere we have even discussed who is more deserving (which is bogus) but just a general discussion of why we didn't practice safer sex, with the exception to those who had the condom break, slip off or contracted through oral.

[Buckmark]

My initial response was WTF?Huh   It's akin to who deserved it back in the 80's.  Since it wasn't posted in the LTS forum I won't be too critical.  I don't know why safe sex education doesn't work.....it's beyond my scope of understanding.  Why add the divide to whom was more deserving?  The majority of my friends were little sluts who did things I only wished I had the nerve to do.  I was and am very conservative concerning sex and never thought I'd end up with disease.  

Wolfie,

I went back and re-read Tim's original post, and I don't see he ever mentioned who "deserved" to get HIV.  The question was why safe sex messages and education didn't work for you.  Safe sex messages have been around for years and years, and yet people are still getting infected by having unsafe sex.  So to improve education or speak about it more effectively, it's helpful to understand why people don't have safe sex, even though they "know better".  

But I do have a question for you:  do you think your friend who were little sluts were somehow more deserving?  I think I sometimes viewed my rather (very?) limited sexual experiences as somehow "protecting" me from HIV, but experience doesn't protect -- condoms do.  Since I ended up with HIV anyway, I sometimes (oftentimes?) I wish I were a slut and enjoyed some good sex along the way.

Regards,

Henry

[drewm]

I was a little slut so I guess I was more at risk but not more deserving. I don't think anyone deserves this virus. I have also given considerable thought to my behavior over the years and when I was doing meth, a lot of meth, I didn't care about the risks.

I know it sounds coy but actions have consequences and the only person I can blame for this is me. I don't beat myself up over it though because things happen. No one forced that first bump of crystal in my nose and no one forced a load up in me.

[thunter34]

My initial response was WTF?   It's akin to who deserved it back in the 80's.  Since it wasn't posted in the LTS forum I won't be too critical.  I don't know why safe sex education doesn't work.....it's beyond my scope of understanding.  Why add the divide to whom was more deserving?  The majority of my friends were little sluts who did things I only wished I had the nerve to do.  I was and am very conservative concerning sex and never thought I'd end up with disease. 

Perhaps I read this post with the wrong mindset. 

Whoa.  This isn't meant to divide anyone into any more or less "deserving" camp AT ALL.  My point is just what Buckmark says:  trying to understand why the safe sex message didn't work for us may help to understand how it might be made to work better for others.

I hate to continue to harp on the earlier post I made (linked in the OP here), but it has been gnawing at me for awhile now because I was taken aback that barely anybody here - not even the moderators or the people I am closest to on this forum - seemed to be willing to touch it.  This is the sort of discussion I was hoping to inspire in that thread.

The main point of that thread - and what I'm now more blantantly trying to draw out in this one - is that truly effective prevention messages may have to be worked on from the listener's side.  In other words, even though the safe sex message itself was essentially solid, I was not able to really receive the message.

I'm trying to get at what all the "outside" contributors to infecton are, and how focusing on improving those areas may stem the tide of new infections more effectively.

[wolfter]

I apologize, I didn't intend to derail your post in any way.  I obviously read more into it than was intended.  It's always been a touchy issue with me personally and I strive to change that mindset.  No one ever deserves to get this virus.  When I contracted this virus, it wasn't even talked about in rural WVA.  It was a west coast disease. 

[woodshere]

trying to understand why the safe sex message didn't work for us may help to understand how it might be made to work better for others.

To me the fact of the matter is that no matter the number of messages regarding many activities, not all people are going to listen.

Statistics show the risk of dieing or sustaining life changing injuries greatly decrease when we wear seat belts, but people don't.  Safety figures show it is safer to wear helmets when riding motorcycles people don't.  Just last week a 74 yr old lady at my church was killed at her mailbox when hit by a driver texting.  How many more messages do we need regarding drinking and driving.  Messaging works for the vast majority of people, but sadly a small percentage of the population will not heed those messages.  The reasons why are as numerous as the stars in the sky and I just don't think there is any way to address all the issues.

I don't think I am being a defeatist, just a realist.

[Miss Philicia]

Whoa.  This isn't meant to divide anyone into any more or less "deserving" camp AT ALL.  My point is just what Buckmark says:  trying to understand why the safe sex message didn't work for us may help to understand how it might be made to work better for others.

I hate to continue to harp on the earlier post I made (linked in the OP here), but it has been gnawing at me for awhile now because I was taken aback that barely anybody here - not even the moderators or the people I am closest to on this forum - seemed to be willing to touch it.  This is the sort of discussion I was hoping to inspire in that thread.

The main point of that thread - and what I'm now more blantantly trying to draw out in this one - is that truly effective prevention messages may have to be worked on from the listener's side.  In other words, even though the safe sex message itself was essentially solid, I was not able to really receive the message.

I'm trying to get at what all the "outside" contributors to infecton are, and how focusing on improving those areas may stem the tide of new infections more effectively.

I don't look at "safe sex" messages in that way -- it's more complicated.  Certainly there are (speaking of the gay community) that it completely works for -- and yes I even know complete bath house types that are able to navigate all of that with a condom for decades without getting infected.  But the larger point is if on an individual basis you are able make a safe sex message work for 10 years, that's 10 years you weren't infected with HIV.  Keep in mind that the HIV timeline has never been static, and at certain points in that timeline 10 years was a big deal.  Or even five.

I think you're looking at it as some sort of zero-sum game which I don't find particularly useful.  Furthermore, if we're going to discuss this as a complete picture we should also be asking why any individual in a high risk group wasn't getting an HIV test on an annual basis.  I can accept a certain amount of ongoing infections, but I'm always actually more concerned (or similarly) with the amount of people showing up with a diagnosis of <200 cd4s, meaning they went eons with no testing.

[thunter34]

I don't look at "safe sex" messages in that way -- it's more complicated.  Certainly there are (speaking of the gay community) that it completely works for -- and yes I even know complete bath house types that are able to navigate all of that with a condom for decades without getting infected.  But the larger point is if on an individual basis you are able make a safe sex message work for 10 years, that's 10 years you weren't infected with HIV.  Keep in mind that the HIV timeline has never been static, and at certain points in that timeline 10 years was a big deal.  Or even five.

I think you're looking at it as some sort of zero-sum game which I don't find particularly useful.  Furthermore, if we're going to discuss this as a complete picture we should also be asking why any individual in a high risk group wasn't getting an HIV test on an annual basis.  I can accept a certain amount of ongoing infections, but I'm always actually more concerned (or similarly) with the amount of people showing up with a diagnosis of <200 cd4s, meaning they went eons with no testing.

I don't get the "zero sum" thing at all.  I'm just trying to identify markers for people that prevent the messages from reaching them.  Is it zero sum to try to identify what the barriers are for reaching, say...the black community?  If you read through the thread, there seem to be some definite common denominators.

And I didn't go "eons" without testing.  I went about 2.5 years.  When taken in the frame of "annual screens", that isn't all that long.  I tested negative just weeks before my seroconversion, and was labeled "AIDS" less than 3 years later.  But for what it's worth, I think that testing question you raise is a good one...and I think the avoidance of both are often rooted in the same causes.

[denb45]

  It was a west coast disease. 

How so, not really 

[woodshere]

....people showing up with a diagnosis of <200 cd4s, meaning they went eons with no testing.

Wow, that hits home!!  While I can somewhat figure out what led to my infection, I have no earthly idea why I didn't test on a regular basis.  I mean I was experiencing symptoms of HIV infection but in some whacked out way justified having them due to some other factor.  Interesting question.

[CaptCarl]

   I think that the ultimate reason most of us are here, is because we fucked up big time. Pure and simple. We figured that for some reason we would be spared from all of this, from the consequences of our actions. After all we were somehow special, and therefore immune from the Bad Thing that might happen to us. Or we decided that the risk was small, or that "just this one time" and we would be okay. Much to our surprise and sorrow though, we learned otherwise.

   It's no different than when I ride my motorcycle without my helmet. Yes I know it's bad idea, but then again, if I'm very careful..... Every time I hop on it, I ask myself if this is the time I go down. Hard. But that doesn't always keep me doing the right thing. I suspect it's the same mindset that causes people to hae unsafe sex.

CaptCarl
  

  

[denb45]

Wow, that hits home!!  While I can somewhat figure out what led to my infection, I have no earthly idea why I didn't test on a regular basis.  I mean I was experiencing symptoms of HIV infection but in some whacked out way justified having them due to some other factor.  Interesting question.

Woody, some of us didn't have a test to take for HIV, I didn't take one cause none were available until 87
things were a lot different back then for a lot of us, before 87 I had no fucking clue what teh gay-cancer was
(that's what they labeled it back then) until they change it to Gird or AIDS....

[Miss Philicia]

And I didn't go "eons" without testing.  I went about 2.5 years.  When taken in the frame of "annual screens", that isn't all that long.  I tested negative just weeks before my seroconversion, and was labeled "AIDS" less than 3 years later.  But for what it's worth, I think that testing question you raise is a good one...and I think the avoidance of both are often rooted in the same causes.

Did I say I was talking about you specifically?

As far as roots/causes stuff I think that's what you've been trying to get at all along, and I knew it from the other thread because I've seen you attempt to make the point at various points in your tenure here.  But while you may see some posts here that you identify with, I can't say it's the same for me.  A lot of you here sprung forth from the Land of Jerry Falwell and had all that churchin' effect your self worth.  I just haven't really had that as part of me, though I went to church growing up every week I intellectually blocked it all after about the age of 12.  I didn't have intense sexuality self-doubt issues that seems to have fed into lots of risky behavior for many, etc.  Is this what you're getting at here, or am I off base.  It just always seems with the topic you're often projecting, hence why sometimes I don't specifically respond.

[GSOgymrat]

I don't look at "safe sex" messages in that way -- it's more complicated.  Certainly there are (speaking of the gay community) that it completely works for -- and yes I even know complete bath house types that are able to navigate all of that with a condom for decades without getting infected.  But the larger point is if on an individual basis you are able make a safe sex message work for 10 years, that's 10 years you weren't infected with HIV.  Keep in mind that the HIV timeline has never been static, and at certain points in that timeline 10 years was a big deal.  Or even five.

I think you're looking at it as some sort of zero-sum game which I don't find particularly useful.  Furthermore, if we're going to discuss this as a complete picture we should also be asking why any individual in a high risk group wasn't getting an HIV test on an annual basis.  I can accept a certain amount of ongoing infections, but I'm always actually more concerned (or similarly) with the amount of people showing up with a diagnosis of <200 cd4s, meaning they went eons with no testing.

Those are good points. I think this thread illustrates there are a variety of reasons people don't always use safer sex practices. Human behavior is complicated and I don't think there is an easy answer, like education is going to fix everything. As far as testing, there are a lot of people who go years without ever seeing a doctor. How many people do we get on here, often people who are not even HIV+, who have all kind of symptoms: blisters, head aches, fatigue, etc. but haven't consulted a doctor?

   It's no different than when I ride my motorcycle without my helmet. Yes I know it's bad idea, but then again, if I'm very careful..... Every time I hop on it, I ask myself if this is the time I go down. Hard. But that doesn't always keep me doing the right thing. I suspect it's the same mindset that causes people to hae unsafe sex.

I thought about the helmet analogy when I first read this thread.

[denb45]

Did I say I was talking about you specifically?

  A lot of you here sprung forth from the Land of Jerry Falwell and had all that churchin' effect your self worth. 

 

[Miss Philicia]

Those are good points. I think this thread illustrates there are a variety of reasons people don't always use safer sex practices. Human behavior is complicated and I don't think there is an easy answer, like education is going to fix everything. As far as testing, there are a lot of people who go years without ever seeing a doctor. How many people do we get on here, often people who are not even HIV+, who have all kind of symptoms: blisters, head aches, fatigue, etc. but haven't consulted a doctor?

That's why I specifically referenced "high risk group" -- if you're gay, that means you, and yes even if you're in a "monogamous" relationship because we all know how "monogamous" that can turn out to be.

And before a heterosexual member launches into me sure, I think everyone is at risk and should test annually if sexually active, but proportionally speaking with "x"% of the population and "y" rate of new infections, I'm always particularly shocked about it in the gay community.

And I lump myself in the "waited to long" to get tested.

[woodshere]

Human behavior is complicated and I don't think there is an easy answer, like education is going to fix everything

It's much like the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"  All we can do is continue to educate and hope that people listen.

[denb45]

  miss p I don't not think any str8 or bi person is going dispute any of this, facts or facts, and history is history  

[thunter34]

Did I say I was talking about you specifically?

As far as roots/causes stuff I think that's what you've been trying to get at all along, and I knew it from the other thread because I've seen you attempt to make the point at various points in your tenure here.  But while you may see some posts here that you identify with, I can't say it's the same for me.  A lot of you here sprung forth from the Land of Jerry Falwell and had all that churchin' effect your self worth.  I just haven't really had that as part of me, though I went to church growing up every week I intellectually blocked it all after about the age of 12.  I didn't have intense sexuality self-doubt issues that seems to have fed into lots of risky behavior for many, etc.  Is this what you're getting at here, or am I off base.  It just always seems with the topic you're often projecting, hence why sometimes I don't specifically respond.

No, and my reply about me not going eons was meant to be read more as a "take me for example" type of statement.  I should have made that clearer.

And no, you aren't off base...at least not entirely.  Yeah, there are plenty of us who had that churchin' thing (and that isn't entirely the domain of the south), but it didn't always just take preaching from Falwell to feed that self destructive behavior.  That's why I included the part early on about my algebra teacher.  The point was that there is often a "perfect storm" thing happening with us - and that storm may be made up of a variety of clusters.  In my case, not only did I have the admittedly heavy religious thing going on, but I also had the larger, more generalized societal devaluing of queerness - and that's something that nearly everyone confronts on some level.  

I had not only the religion based feelings of self-worth, but I also had the general shaming from society at large which made me so hungry for human contact by the time I was an adult that, between the two, thoughts about protection were virtually nonexistant.

[Miss Philicia]

I had not only the religion based feelings of self-worth, but I also had the general shaming from society at large which made me so hungry for human contact by the time I was an adult that, between the two, thoughts about protection were virtually nonexistant.

OK, fine -- I've also heard you talk about how you needed to go condom-less to feel an emotional cosmic connection with someone else.  That's fine for you, but I've never felt that way. In fact I'm not even sure that I have sex for an emotional connection, I really just do it to get off (and by this I'm meaning outside of a relationship type of sex). I'm not even going to tell you that as a Big Ole Mary Bottom that (for me) it feels any different getting fucked with or without a condom, meaning physically -- that sensory issue is for the top to deal with.

So yeah, there's a huge variety here and no one safe sex message is going to be able to work 100%, hence my comment about zero-sum game which you didn't seem to get. A lot of these issues aren't going to be solved unless society shoves queers into sexuality-affirming therapy sessions and support groups when they're 15, and that isn't ever going to happen. (someone here will mock me for saying that... you know who you are)

[thunter34]

OK, fine -- I've also heard you talk about how you needed to go condom-less to feel an emotional cosmic connection with someone else.  That's fine for you, but I've never felt that way. In fact I'm not even sure that I have sex for an emotional connection, I really just do it to get off (and by this I'm meaning outside of a relationship type of sex). I'm not even going to tell you that as a Big Ole Mary Bottom that (for me) it feels any different getting fucked with or without a condom, meaning physically -- that sensory issue is for the top to deal with.

So yeah, there's a huge variety here and no one safe sex message is going to be able to work 100%, hence my comment about zero-sum game which you didn't seem to get. A lot of these issues aren't going to be solved unless society shoves queers into sexuality-affirming therapy sessions and support groups when they're 15, and that isn't ever going to happen. (someone here will mock me for saying that... you know who you are)

I guess we should just continue talking about Justin Beiber then.   

[GSOgymrat]

Miss P. your comment about this not being a zero sum game made me realize that I may not have stayed HIV- but I did stay that way long enough to benefit from PIs and not die. Thanks!

[wolfter]

How so, not really 

I'm not sure how much you remember of the early days so go ahead and roll your eyes as if dismissing my comments.  The first I ever heard of this illness was from our pastor who talked about the queers on the west coast being stricken with gay cancer. 

[AlanBama]

In the early 80's, I lived in Tulsa, OK.   I was into work (M-F) and gay bars (weekends).  That was pretty much it; I didn't watch a lot of TV, there was no internet, and the newspapers (that I read) said little or nothing about AIDS.   We (stupidly) assumed it was an "east coast' or "west coast" thing, and that we were kind of safe in the heartland....I remember the first guy I saw in Tulsa who (in hindsight) probably had AIDS; he was a hot blonde bartender; he was absent for a long while, then came back thin and walking with a cane.   There were some whispers, but mostly we remained in the dark (and that was mostly because of our own choosing).  Very dumb, I know.

Also, I (stupidly) thought that being a 'top' gave me a pass.....oh how wrong that was.   I learned it, the hard way.

Not sure why safe sex messages don't work as well now; I do think in part it's because people aren't dying (as openly) from AIDS as they were in the 90's.   I think about it a lot, and wonder what we could do or say to make things different.....and why can't they come up with a microbicide that works for men?  We all know men hate condoms, me included.   Just sayin...

[newt]

Love, trust, desire, 7 year relationship, being away from the scene

- matt

[Joe K]

So why? Well...a little of everything.

When society tells you, you are worthless and nobody, you begin to believe it. Like a never ending drum that you hear pounding loudly every day. Then add in leaders like GW Bush staring into the camera, at his 2004 "State of the Union" speech, with that look of pure evil in his eyes, pointing out "the gays" are our enemies and the nation should do everything it can to protect marriage from "those people".

Mix in some Jerry Falwell, Jessy Helms and Pat Roberson blaming every natural disaster on "the gays".
Toss in how most of us were treated in school.
Then include how some of our own family members treat us, or more so ignore the obvious.
All that, and more, sets the stage.

Next.. there is the fact with meeting other gay people usually happens is a less than desirable environment.
A bar, the cruise loop, some book store or restroom.
And don't forget that great power of sexual desire in itself.

I've often heard a gay guy saying "I'd risk AIDS to screw that hunk!".
Another a hard fact... many gays do not respect their own kind.
While we share being gay, many tend to accept the brain washing feed to them by the Jessy Helms, the Pat Roberson's and GW Bush's of the world.
I don't know how to put it, but they (some gays) somehow judge other gays in a negative light, all while members of the same club, they feel detached from the basic understanding of their own kind.

With all this on our shoulders, self respect falls secondary.
And many gay people knowingly, and against their better judgment, let their guard down. Take risks. Don't care. Never believe it can happen to them. Or worse of all, have this thinking if it happens (HIV) that they deserved it. It was inevitable.
Then you have those that actively seek catching HIV.
And too, those that in todays world believe modern medicine has cured HIV, or pretty much rendered HIV harmless.
Simply a minor inconvenience concerning medication.

Myself, I trusted someone that knew they were positive. And I did not know. Someone that knew all to well but chose to ignored their risk to me. Someone that might as well pulled out a knife and stabbed me in the chest, believing I too should share their personal grief and life sentence.

But finally and most of all, I blame me. Why would I ever take the risk. Why I would believe my luck could never run out. Why I lost respect for myself and well being. Why I would think my own loss of self respect would never have any effect on others close to me.

Yes... when you are told most every day you are a secondary citizen. Not worthy. Flawed. Not equal or deserving. When facing that ever since we first realized we ourselves were in fact gay, that does have a huge negative effect on a person.
That starts the ball rolling. The rest, somehow, does seem inevitable.

And it never stops. Every day we still hear politicians and leaders telling us we do not deserve to be happy. Be equal. Marry someone we love. Do not deserve our own private life and the right to a given freedom everyone else takes for granted. Every day is a battle, and it takes its toll.

Then comes a day for many, when we get to the point that we don't care. That we deserve what we get.
And we take the risks, despite knowing better.
And here we are. Trying to cope and somehow make sense of it all, on the "living with HIV" forum...

What an incredibly powerful post, outlining the many influences that gays face growing up and it illustrates why safe sex messages will always have limited reach. I'm going through some very intensive therapy right now.  I now know that there was nothing anyone could have told me in the 80s about HIV, because it did not matter to me. Because I did not matter to me. Randy presents a pretty accurate description of growing up gay, at least for me and in that environment, I never stood a chance, because everyone kept telling me how wrong it was to be gay and by everyone, I do mean "everyone".

My parents, my church, my schools, my friends, my family, strangers, people in powerful positions and people who simply hated me for being different. What was I supposed to do, I was born this way, but if you tell a lie long enough, sometimes you forget that it is untrue. Being orphaned at a young age, it took me decades to overcome the feelings of abandonment, partly because my "adopted" family, never fully accepted me, because I was not "naturally born" into the family. My poor mother could not have children, so just what was she to do, to have a child and it's all just way too fucked up reasoning for it to ever make sense.

However, it did shape my world, as it does for everyone and since we do not live in a vacuum, you can never devise a single message to reach everyone. If we want people to be protected, we have to give them an environment, that tells them they matter, just the way they are. For most of us, we grew up in a very tough time for being gay and in our own way, we have changed the world forever. Equal gay rights are a reality in many parts of the world and that presents a mindset for society to follow in general. If society can tolerate all types of people, then everyone has somewhat equal worth. If instead, society creates second classes of citizens, for whatever reasons, surely they cannot be surprised when the rest of society treats them as such.

For me, far too much time is spent telling people what not to do, rather than empowering them to do what is right for them. HIV, being an equal opportunity virus has presented us with a worldwide canvas, on which to try new things. We know that prevention messages alone are never enough. When we start empowering people, whether it be with condoms, microbial gels or needle exchange programs, we give them options to avoid infection that have real world implications.

Telling someone how to avoid becoming poz is fine, however they must have the tools to actually avoid becoming poz.

[woodshere]

Telling someone how to avoid becoming poz is fine, however they must have the tools to actually avoid becoming poz.

Pretty well sums it up!!

[CaptCarl]

  I have to say too that I have noticed a propensity for  people to make up stories about their infections to hide the truth of what they were really doing. It's almost pathological in a sense, and seems to become a matter of habit for some. You know, if you tell the lie enough times, you'll start to believe it is true. Why do people feel the need to lie about it? I mean after all the truth of what really happened is staring us right in the face. Like if it's taking on every dick you can in a bookstore while in a "monogamous" realtionship, and trying to hide it from a partner. Or any other scenario you would care to imagine. I remain dubious about "Immaculate Infections"

   It seems to me that the longer and more detailed the explanation, the less likey it is to be true. Occam's Razor and all that.

CaptCarl

[denb45]

I'm not sure how much you remember of the early days so go ahead and roll your eyes as if dismissing my comments.  The first I ever heard of this illness was from our pastor who talked about the queers on the west coast being stricken with gay cancer. 

  I sure hope you don't go around believing what some crack-pot pastor tells you, but whatever, hell he probably likes young boys, and snorts tina 

[GSOgymrat]

We (stupidly) assumed it was an "east coast' or "west coast" thing, and that we were kind of safe in the heartland....

I remember those days. I was living in Raleigh at the time and a lot of people thought that this was a New York or San Francisco phenomenon. It wasn't long before local people started getting sick.

[skeebo1969]

   I don't think it's a good idea to follow the advice of a pastor who snorts tina, likes little boys, and follows a strict vegan diet.

   I'm just sayin....

[denb45]

I remember those days. I was living in Raleigh at the time and a lot of people thought that this was a New York or San Francisco phenomenon. It wasn't long before local people started getting sick.

FORD I recall people gettin sick back in 81 or 82, in the Oakland SF bay area, however, AIDS has been around for many yrs. and a lot longer than 30 or 35 yrs.

[denb45]

   I don't think it's a good idea to follow the advice of a pastor who snorts tina, likes little boys, and follows a strict vegan diet.

   I'm just sayin....

LUZ LUZ   

[GSOgymrat]

FORD I recall people gettin sick back in 81 or 82, in the Oakland SF bay area, however, AIDS has been around for many yrs. and a lot longer than 30 or 35 yrs.

I think that must have been even more scary. How horrible to be at ground zero and see people getting sick and dying when no one knew what was going on, when there wasn't even a name for it.

[denb45]

I think that must have been even more scary. How horrible to be at ground zero and see people getting sick and dying when no one knew what was going on, when there wasn't even a name for it.

not really I was in the Navy, and I just put on the rank of E-5 w/ a big pay rise to boot, so I didn't really care, however I did enjoy teasing all the Boys down in SOMA & The Castro on my bike, they just loved it, a guys gotta do what a guys gotta do ya know   @ 26 yrs old, i was just trying to get my dick wet, I didn't care who it was  

[Inchlingblue]

I managed to remain negative for most of my adult life, i.e. until I was 46!

Then I fell in LOVE.  And for the first time I thought it might finally be OK not to use condoms with my partner, a man who bought condoms by the gross (that's 144 condoms, 12 boxes x 12 condoms in each box) so I assumed he was using them every time. We had an open relationship but to me "open" meant we could fuck around on the side safely. To him it meant he could fuck bareback with tweaked out party whores (I'm not mincing words our judging, just calling a spade a spade).

I was always versatile and more top (I'd get fucked once a year and that was enough). This man I fell in love with is a top so I was primarily a bottom with him.

I started to worry when I read a text he received (don't ask why I was reading his sacrosanct texts) from one of the aforementioned tweaked out party whores. The gist of the text was how hot it was that his cum was oozing out of their ass. Yum! Not.

I had read all those statistics that HIV is rising among 20-something inner city minorities who weren't getting the message about HIV/AIDS. My ex is 40-something and personally nursed at least a handful of men who died in the 80s and early 90s. He knew better. Or so I thought.

We've since broken up and I was recently telling him about a friend I have who has had HIV since 1985 and has a partner of 10 years who remains negative and he asked me incredulously, "How do they do that?" I had to stop myself from screaming "With CONDOMS you stupid fuck!"

This man is not stupid. In fact he's above average in the IQ department, among other departments that he's above average in.

Life is complicated.

[Miss Philicia]

(don't ask why I was reading his sacrosanct texts)

Child, you know I'm not letting that one pass by.  Who do you think you are?  Rodiney on the A-List?

[Inchlingblue]

Child, you know I'm not letting that one pass by.  Who do you think you are?  Rodiney on the A-List?

LOL

I love it that you spelled "Rodiney" right. I hate his accent. But then again, until recently I hated Scottish accents and now they give me a hard on.

I saw Reichen on the street the other day and his face looked sooo skinny. The camera really does add pounds.

[Hellraiser]

I'm one of the afore mentioned non-testers.  I was way too ashamed of my sexuality to get tested for HIV until long after I'd put my extreme whoring days behind me.  I figured I'd dodged the bullet and I figured wrong.

The time I think I was infected however we used a condom, but not before he put the head in once or twice just to tease.  About a week or two later I was sick with the most god awful "flu" I'd ever had which upon inspection now would make sense as seroconversion.  I really honestly don't know though as I could've been infected long before or since.  I was diagnosed in the hospital fighting off a staph infection with my 15 T cells.

[Matty the Damned]

It's much like the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"  All we can do is continue to educate and hope that people listen.

Actually Woodsy when I read threads like this I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's notorious quip:

You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think.

MtD

[Miss Philicia]

I saw Reichen on the street the other day and his face looked sooo skinny. The camera really does add pounds.

I think he's just not been getting much sleep lately.

[tednlou2]

I don't believe you. I think you have made that up.

MtD

Ok, I did make up the part about virgin ass.  And, I'm sure the tightness is debatable.  Being serious, this is how it happened.  I realize it was still my responsibility to make sure the condom stayed on. 

[mecch]

This man is not stupid. In fact he's above average in the IQ department, among other departments that he's above average in.

Done in by da big dick!

I got a hung friend, HIV+, he says its a constant demand, "do me raw".  So primal, finally.

[thunter34]

Now, I didn't say it was unprotected.  I was for the condom before he was against it.  When I talked about the situation here before, I got the emoticon eye-roll, so I didn't go into details this time.  I've had my share of bareback sex, so I'm not trying to cum off as some angel.  I just didn't get infected then.  It was when I tried to do all the right things by insisting on condoms--even with a long-time friend, and he took the condom off in the dark without me knowing.  And, his cock was so big that I'm sure it made so many tears in my very tight and very virgin ass.  Okay, now back to the regularly scheduled eye-rolls      

I'll have to try to look up the old posts in reference to this because I am curious how you "know" that it happened this particular time you "tried to do all the right things"....especially since, by describing it so singurlarly, it gives the impression that this "right" time was an exception to a rather lengthy series of...um..."less right" ones.

And is the "lou" part of "tednlou" still negative?  I'm just wondering because I don't know everybody's histories on here (being fairly recently returned and all), so I don't know if you managed to since find a relationship that was serodiscordant or if he's also poz or what.  He doesn't post on here, does he?  Just idle curiosity on my part...not trying to be too invasive.

[hope_for_a_cure]

I knew the risk was there but chose to ignore it and did just that.  If I actually had to come up with an excuse to justify my actions I guess I got tired of having rubbers come off inside my butt!  Yep.... its a tight one and that did happen more times than I care to remember.  My partner(s) would have to pull it out with their finger which spoiled the mood for us both. 

[woodshere]

Funny how this nasty old virus works and randomly infects everyone.  During the height of the epidemic I sucked every dick I could find, even took it up the ass with condoms occasionally.  Ten/fifteen years later, the cocksucking had been reduced greatly and the one of the first times I got fucked raw, BOOM, I got it.  Then others becoming infected shortly after their appreciation of dick sucking started or after barebacking numerous times the one time they use condoms something goes wrong and they become infected.  Life is so unpredictable!

[Miss Philicia]

Funny how this nasty old virus works and randomly infects everyone.  During the height of the epidemic I sucked every dick I could find, even took it up the ass with condoms occasionally.  Ten/fifteen years later, the cocksucking had been reduced greatly and the one of the first times I got fucked raw, BOOM, I got it.  Then others becoming infected shortly after their appreciation of dick sucking started or after barebacking numerous times the one time they use condoms something goes wrong and they become infected.  Life is so unpredictable!

I was like this too -- all of the hysteria in the early years, and seriously it was hysteria and all encompassing -- stuck to just sucking cock for five years.  I don't think I even topped anyone, there was just never any anal sex.  I didn't even see anal sex in porn until maybe 1987 on a videotape, as you know VCRs were quite pricey at the beginning.  So when the chance finally presented itself to have anal sex, plus the guy I was having it with I'd had a HUGE crush on for the previous year or two, no condoms were used.  He didn't even have proper lube in his fucking apartment and we had to use Aramis hand lotion.  Probably some odd fragrant ingredient opened up every capillary in my rectum for optimal HIV transmission.  And I'm quite sure he went up to NYC to go clubbing from time to time, so there went the "I'm in Virginia and safe from that NYC/West Coast virus!"... I mean that was a silly rational for anyone to make in the first place, but going by Alan's and Ford's posts about where they lived it was not uncommon at the time.

[denb45]

I guess I got tired of having rubbers come off inside my butt!  Yep.... its a tight one and that did happen more times than I care to remember. 

 

[denb45]

 During the height of the epidemic I sucked every dick I could find

  Woddy you and James are giving me a chubby flap, flap, flap,  

[thunter34]

 And I'm quite sure he went up to NYC to go clubbing from time to time, so there went the "I'm in Virginia and safe from that NYC/West Coast virus!"... I mean that was a silly rational for anyone to make in the first place, but going by Alan's and Ford's posts about where they lived it was not uncommon at the time.

Oh, no...not uncommon at all.  The way it was preached around here - and not only from the pulpit, but the general mentality - it was viewed as something that wouldn't touch the good folk here in the South (also known as part of "the REAL America" in today's terms, I would imagine).  Heck...from the way it was spoken of back then, you might well have just renamed San Fran and NYC as Sodom and Gomorrah.

[denb45]

San Fran and NYC as Sodom and Gomorrah.

Your speaking my language there tim, it's the only thing I know, you see it's in my DNA 

[Miss Philicia]

Oh, no...not uncommon at all.  The way it was preached around here - and not only from the pulpit, but the general mentality - it was viewed as something that wouldn't touch the good folk here in the South (also known as part of "the REAL America" in today's terms, I would imagine).  Heck...from the way it was spoken of back then, you might well have just renamed San Fran and NYC as Sodom and Gomorrah.

Stop trying to project your church going life onto me, queen... I wasn't in a church pew post-1983.  My thinking was derived from the quiet whispers of kindred fags in the punk rock scene.  My life wasn't like yours.

ps: nice avatar.  I think I might have to kiss you.

[denb45]

Stop trying to project your church going life onto me, queen... I wasn't in a church pew post-1983.  My thinking was derived from the quiet whispers of kindred fags in the punk rock scene.  My life wasn't like yours.

  I sold my soul to the devil yrs ago, but he can't have it while I'm still alive, cause that's the deal I made w/ him, if I could take it back I would, but I cannot, i already no where I'm going after I die 

[thunter34]

Stop trying to project your church going life onto me, queen... I wasn't in a church pew post-1983.  My thinking was derived from the quiet whispers of kindred fags in the punk rock scene.  My life wasn't like yours.

ps: nice avatar.  I think I might have to kiss you.

Ahem...that's why I said, "...and not just from the pulput, but the general mentality".

Hmpfh....dis me then kiss me.

 

[CaptCarl]

Tim-

   Nice new avvy. Now show us your tits...


CaptCarl

[Inchlingblue]

Done in by da big dick!

I got a hung friend, HIV+, he says its a constant demand, "do me raw".  So primal, finally.

lol . . How reductionist of you!

I've had my share of giant cocks that I didn't want anywhere near my butt (although I don't think I've ever turned one down near my mouth).  The difference here is that I really fell in love and truly thought he was HIV-negative and was using condoms when fucking on the side.

Sometimes getting in a relationship and "falling in love" can be precarious.

I was reading something recently which struck a chord, "When a situation feels dangerous to you, it's probably more safe than you know. When a situation feels safe, that is precisely when you should feel on guard."  It was in reference to thrill-seekers, such as parachutists, wilderness hikers, etc.

I think he's just not been getting much sleep lately.

I love it. You always find the most fascinating little links. It must be because of your pact with Satan.

[CaptCarl]

It must be because of your pact with Satan.

   Actually, Inchy Dear, it's well established Satan is very brazen in his attempts to stay on Miss P.'s good side.
   
   The true story is that in Hell, it is a well-known fact that Satan flinches just a little bit every morning when Philly gets out of bed. He knows that eventually they'll be cohabitating, so he's basically he's buying the bitch off to make life easier after she arrives. After all, due to the nature of Hell itself: There's no place to hide....

CaptCarl

[tednlou2]

I'll have to try to look up the old posts in reference to this because I am curious how you "know" that it happened this particular time you "tried to do all the right things"....especially since, by describing it so singurlarly, it gives the impression that this "right" time was an exception to a rather lengthy series of...um..."less right" ones.

And is the "lou" part of "tednlou" still negative?  I'm just wondering because I don't know everybody's histories on here (being fairly recently returned and all), so I don't know if you managed to since find a relationship that was serodiscordant or if he's also poz or what.  He doesn't post on here, does he?  Just idle curiosity on my part...not trying to be too invasive.

The "lou" in tednlou refers to Louisville, KY and not someone named Lou.  I've been in relationships all my adult life.  I had sex with girls during highschool.  I had one girlfriend who we'd go to her house on lunch and have sex--unprotected sex.  I first had sex with a guy when I was about 17.  I had unprotected sex with a few guys during that time.  I met my first partner when I was about to turn 18.  We went for an HIV test together and were both neg in 1994.  We broke up in August 1995.  I tested about 2 weeks after that with a neg result when I immediately began a relationship with my current partner.  He tested neg as well.  So, I know the question is how did I get infected in 2001 when I was in a relationship?  I've never discussed that here before.  My current partner was present in a 3 way with that friend.  Shortly after that incident with the friend taking the condom off, I began having all the classic seroconversion illness symptoms.  I wanted to believe it was mono.  I believe my partner didn't get infected, because he didn't bottom.  He is more of an oral guy.  However, he did top me several times between 2001 and when I was dx'd in 2008.  I guess another example that tops are at much less risk.  In retrospect, I'm glad he didn't like to bottom.

Now, I went through a period where I was not faithful around 2004 and 2005.  My partner only wants to have sex about once a month.  This is why I went astray and why I agreed to bring the friend into a 3 way.  That's no excuse, but it is what it is.  Not proud of it.  I hooked up with guys, but I never had risky sex.  I would only do oral (usually only receiving) and/or just jerking off together.  I justified it in my head that if I didn't have anal sex, then it wasn't really cheating.  When a medical professional told me due to my labs that I must have just recently been infected, then I began wondering whether I could have gotten it via oral.  But, everyone says that is very, very unlikely.  And, I learned someone can be poz for years or decades with good/decent labs.  Again, I rarely gave oral and never took a load in my mouth.  I would often just lick the shaft and balls to avoid even sucking.  I'm sure those guys thought I was very boring or selfish. 

My partner and I just had this conversation tonight about the friend, my former partner, and when I was infected.  After I was dx'd, I learned that my former partner has AIDS.  That threw a wrench in things.  He had already progressed to AIDS by 2006, so one would think he'd been poz for many years.  We were last together in Aug 1995.  I suppose I could have still been in the window period when I tested just 2 weeks later.  However, I have a hard time believing I've been poz that long.  I know it is possible, but just hard to believe.  My partner reminded me tonight that I had a similar mono-like illness in early 1996.  I had just began working at a local TV station and I would come home and sleep until the next day.  But, I don't remember having swollen lymph nodes and think I was just tired from the schedule.  In any even, it had to come from him or the friend in 2001, because I had not had any unprotected anal sex with anyone else.  Unless oral or getting some spunk in your eye is a real risk, then I couldn't have gotten it from someone else.  My partner tends to believe it does go back to my previous partner.  However, he swears he got it in 2003 and I guess just progressed very quickly.  And, I spoke with that friend's previous partner who all but said he was poz.  He was being very careful with his words and said, "Our gut feelings are often correct."  He said they broke up, because he was having sex with lots of guys and doing it bareback.  I believe he was being careful with his words, because he was poz himself, but didn't want to reveal that to me.  Maybe not, but just a gut feeling.  And, I didn't reveal my status to him.  I said I was asking for a friend who had been with him and was now poz.  He probably saw through that lie.

So, I can be blamed for bringing someone into our relationship.  If we had picked up some stranger, I doubt I would have let my guard down and had sex in the dark where I couldn't see what was going on.  I doubt I would have even had anal sex, if it was a stranger.  I would have preferred to top, because I didn't get to do that at home.  The friend was mostly a bottom I would learn and usually didn't like to top.  But, he really wanted to with me.  That caused me to wonder whether he purposely wanted to infect me.  That is if he knew he was poz, which I'm beginning to think he did.  This brings up many feelings of guilt.  If I had only been satisfied in a "normal" relationship where you don't bring others into it, then I wouldn't be poz today.  If it does go back to my previous partner, then safe sex didn't work, because we weren't having safe sex.  If testing of strains were readily available and cheap, I would love to confirm just who it came from.  Not for blame, but to know just how long I had this.  If it were neither of them, then I would be one of those stories about oral infection that everyone says is impossible or very unlikely.  After the seroconversion illness or whatever it was in 2001, I went for a test in early 2002.  However, I didn't return for the results.  I had done it anonymously.  Since I feared it could be HIV, the moral thing to do would have been to get those results.  My partner knew about the friend taking the condom off, so it wasn't like I was fucking without him knowing and putting him at risk for HIV.  And, I told him I thought the sore and swollen lymph nodes that lastest years could be HIV.  He passed it off as a bad case of mono, too, because we read some with mono have lymph nodes that stay swollen like that.  But I've yet to meet someone with mono whose nodes stayed swollen for years.  So, that's the skeletons in my closet.         

[tednlou2]

My apologies for that novel I just wrote, but you asked, right?  However, you probably wanted the pamphlet version

[Inchlingblue]

 I guess another example that tops are at much less risk.

Tops are less at risk but I'm not sure it can be characterized as "much" less. I don't mean to be nit-picky with your words but I think the message that tops are "much" less at risk isn't a good one. I know guys who exclusively topped who got HIV and they got it because they believed that if they exclusively topped they wouldn't get it. There are so many other factors involved when transmission occurs, such as the viral load of the person who's poz, whether there are any other STDs that can facilitate transmission, etc.

The other problem with the message that tops are "much" less at risk is that it feeds a vicious circle in which the person who's bottoming figures, "If this guy is a top he likely won't have HIV."

I agree that tops are "less" at risk but how much less is hard to say.

[Dachshund]

The friend was mostly a bottom I would learn and usually didn't like to top.  But, he really wanted to with me.  That caused me to wonder whether he purposely wanted to infect me.  That is if he knew he was poz, which I'm beginning to think he did.  This brings up many feelings of guilt.

You're going to have a difficut time comimg to terms with your infection.

[Peacock]

I was so desperate to experience anal sex , and so scared of how much its gonna hurt that I got nice and drunk, and had a few puffs of the blokes weed (that really got me flying in the clouds!!) So that by the time he was on top of me all the biggest priority was enjoying the sex .I honestly did keep thinking to myself that I must use a condom, but it was inmpossible to insist on one when my mind was up in the clouds and my body was under 5 tons of weight.(HeHeHe!). Quite an experience, I must admit i accept full responsibility for my decisions that resulted in me being in a very compromised position, and i did really enjoy it...so life goes on, ey. so staying sober would have been a better idea...but i would have been like a cardboard cutout, and it would have been an aweful fucking experience for the dude who popped my virginity. Unfortunatly drugs and booze really do help to make the 'first time' experience more pleasurable, pity it also affects a persons common sense.

[denb45]

My apologies for that novel I just wrote, but you asked, right?  However, you probably wanted the pamphlet version

I'm on to you  you just want to make me go blind by reading such a long post 

[ThatsAll]

Accidents happen. I have always used condoms for sex, no exceptions. The woman who infected ne was older than me, vindictive as I later found out. I was having great sex that night. Anal and vaginal back and forth. I must have lasted two hours that night. Never occured to me to check the condom. We used her wetness as lube LOL. When we were done condom was shredded.  I didnt think anything of it because I came in her ass. Felt sick about two weeks later. So, I guess safe sex didnt work with me because I was not safe enough.

[newt]

So, I guess safe sex didnt work with me because I was not safe enough.

Yer, indeed, that's why it's really safer sex, like safer driving. Shit happens.

- matt

[eric48]

25 years of safe sex:

number of times I had (penetrative) sex without a condom:
- 1 in 198? (a week before the virus was discovered, freaked out)
- 0 with my then BF (7 years...)
- 1 (reproductive, with my wife)
- 1 one week of reproductive attempts (failed, with my wife, after carefull HIV tests, abstinence, etc)
- 1 guy (half) tricked me (2009), I found out within 10 sec of intercourse, interrupted (almost) right away, ... but that was it...

Still a virgin

First time I had (voluntary) allowed semen into me: 1986 (?)
Last time I had (voluntary) allowed semen into me: 1986 (?)

Immense sense of frustration  - guilt - and despair

So unfair ! , I said (crying) to the HIV clinic consultant.

Me: safe sex has made my life a waste... So Why Didn't "Safe Sex" Work With ME ?
He: "Safe Sex" DID work with you ! you've eluded the epidemic, we are in 2010, you' re going to be Okay
Me (crying): I know (well, no, I DID NOT know, I was completely unaware of treatment progress, still locked-on safe-sex as sole life saver)
Me: ... (crying /fainting) THE virus screwed my sex life
He: and that of your wife (Oh boy, I had NEVER realized THAT!)
Me: ... (more crying)
He: safe sex... saved HER life ! YOUR "Safe Sex" Worked With HER

number of times I had (penetrative) sex without a condom since 2009 'accident': ZERO

number of times I 'see' people barebacking : so many !
number of times turned down for not barebacking : countless

Still a virgin... But not giving up hope

from Joseph Sonnabend, MD' blog:

-------------
I'm not sure that it's even possible to adequately describe the terror and desperation felt in the early 1980s.
-------------

19?? : First same sex love (I was 14, freaked out of been a 'faggot'... the word 'gay' did not even exist, but, I was IN LOVE)
1984 : First 'liberated' , out of the closet (well, discreet, though) gay life
198? : First ever penetrative passive sex (no condom) (unexpectedly loved it), Virus announced one week later
1988 : no sex
1990 : safe sex : patiently waiting for a vaccine
1991, 92, 93 safe sex : patiently waiting for a vaccine, gave up hope for Sex+Love
1993 : entered a complex relationship with a sex-addict girl (threesome). Became a father (one shot).
93, 94, 95, 96 : tried to 'satisfy' her, doing my best. (condom = no fun)
97, 98, 99, 00, 01, 02, 03 : gave up sex but under heavy surveillance from the Frau ... and... kid !
04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09 : a few (unexpectedly nice) incursions into my real life (safe sex)
2009 : big mistake, 2010: Dx, meds
2011: UD, and still kicking !

I'm not sure that it's even possible to adequately describe the (latent) terror I still live in

Does that answer the question ?

"Safe Sex" DID Work With ME / US !

Eric

[madbrain]

To hear many, it's sad tales of either oral sex or that dreaded one-time condom break.  But I'll be blunt with you:  I don't really believe you.

So why even bother to ask, if you aren't going to accept the answer ? The answer will still be the same.

[TabooPrincess]

I trusted my boyfriend when he told me his result was negative.  If we didn't take the chance to trust someone in our lives then no babies would ever be born I guess....otherwise people would use condoms even if they thought they were in a monogomous relationship.  Anyway, I wouldn't have my gorgeous son, so it's my silver lining around my dark cloud.

Sometimes it just comes down to bad luck rather than bad choices.

[Cliff]

It sometimes feel as though people expect a badge for always having safe sex except for that 10 second insertion with a broken condom that ended up screwing up their lives.  

Pesky love and emotions got the better of me with ex.  However, I had a great 5-year relationship with him and a long-life friend from the experience.  And I'm OK with that.

[Dachshund]

There are just too many "the checks in the mail" and "I won't cum in your mouth" stories. People admit to barebacking and then fall all over themselves denying that might have been the source of their infection.

[GSOgymrat]

case closed

You're going to have a difficut time comimg to terms with your infection.

There are just too many "the checks in the mail" and "I won't cum in your mouth" stories. People admit to barebacking and then fall all over themselves denying that might have been the source of their infection.

You criticize other people's stories without sharing your own. Since you have shown such an interest in this thread, why didn't safer sex work with you?

[mikeyb39]

This is a good post. I came out in the mid 90's and at the time was scared to death of ever thinking of having bb sex. I remember it being somewhat taboo and even porno's you couldn't hardly find movies that portrayed it.  I think as the years moved on and as i got older things that seemed taboo and have became very intriguing to me.

The long story short I just got relaxed in my thinking and thought that i was a good judge of who was neg and who was poz and i sort of got the 'i dont care' mindset.  I dont think the majority of guys infect others on purpose, they just simply dont know their own status. I never blamed the guy that infected me, i allowed him to penetrate without a condom because i wanted the sex and as most know when you are in that moment of passion its hard to say stop let me grab a condom.

[denb45]

Well guys, there always masturbation, froth-age & nude-wrestling, that's safe & works too 

[Dachshund]

You criticize other people's stories without sharing your own. Since you have shown such an interest in this thread, why didn't safer sex work with you?

Seems pretty obvious Ford. No song, no dance, I didn't practice safe sex. Same story.

[aztecan]

Well, where do I begin.

First, loved the post about the influences, negative especially, that helped to shape who and what we are.

They aren't an excuse, but certainly do set the stage.

When AIDS reared its ugly head, I was living in one of the epicenters - Los Angeles.

I had had rampant, skin-to-skin butt sex with thousands of men during the 1970s and early 1980s. Sometimes the top, sometimes the bottom. These men were from all parts of the globe (someday I will recount my experiences with a German merchant marine.)

I had memberships to many bathhouses across the U.S., including one in Hollywood that was located right across the street from the USO!   Talk about location, location, location!

We had no idea we were passing the bum flu at the time.

My first doc thinks I may been infect in 1980, the spring of 1980.  Yes darlings, that would give me 31 years with the bug.

I only count 26 of them, well, almost 26 of them, cause that is how long ago I came up positive.

But, even when people started dropping faster than republican IQs, I still didn't instantly jump into the safer sex handbasket.

Give me a few cocktails and nose full of cola, and I would dance the dirty mambo with the best of them.

I didn't actually start to get serious about safer sex, and taking better care of myself, until the late 80s, early 90s. Of course, by that time, it was way too late.

As one of the few people still alive who can remember what sex was like B.A., I thought I would just give a different perspective.

Safer sex messages didn't really work for me until I actually paid attention.

HUGS,

Mark

[CaptCarl]

So why even bother to ask, if you aren't going to accept the answer ? The answer will still be the same.

I would guess that the question is asked in hopes of getting the truth.

The point of this thread is to get people accept the fact that we're all pretty much here because we didn't get "The Message" With very few exceptions, safe sex didn't work for us because we ignored the facts. That's why we're infected. The whole "Immaculate Infection" thing is viewed with a jaunduced eye.

There's a reason such stories are not believed. Because for the most part, they're unbelievable.

CaptCarl

[tednlou2]

I would guess that the question is asked in hopes of getting the truth.

The point of this thread is to get people accept the fact that we're all pretty much here because we didn't get "The Message" With very few exceptions, safe sex didn't work for us because we ignored the facts. That's why we're infected. The whole "Immaculate Infection" thing is viewed with a jaunduced eye.

There's a reason such stories are not believed. Because for the most part, they're unbelievable.

CaptCarl

I'm sure there are many who lie, or believe their own lies, or remember things as they weren't, in order to protect themselves from blame.  We often want to believe we weren't at fault in many things--car accidents, arguments, divorces, etc.  But, things like this do happen.  I've heard at least 10 women friends say they were concerned about a broken condom.  They were just worried about pregnancy.  I've had a few tell me about catching guys trying to take the condom off.  And, I've heard of a few women who purposely didn't take their birth control or put needle holes into condoms in order to get pregnant.  They seem like stories people make up, but they do happen. 

[ngo1]

Well,I'll just say I don't know how I got infected and that really sucks!All I remember is in early November,I had "protected" sex with a "bareback" brand of thin latex condom which I do not remember breaking only to learn later that the ish hit the fan.I now understand when someone blames a broken condom,blow job going bad etc.That does not a liar make them,just an unlucky fella.

[Ann]

ngo, as you and I have discussed via PM, you are very likely not actually hiv positive. You need to get that Western Blot confirmation ASAP.

[Matt39]

I'm sure there are many who lie, or believe their own lies, or remember things as they weren't, in order to protect themselves from blame.  We often want to believe we weren't at fault in many things--car accidents, arguments, divorces, etc.  But, things like this do happen.  I've heard at least 10 women friends say they were concerned about a broken condom.  They were just worried about pregnancy.  I've had a few tell me about catching guys trying to take the condom off.  And, I've heard of a few women who purposely didn't take their birth control or put needle holes into condoms in order to get pregnant.  They seem like stories people make up, but they do happen.  

The problem with all that is the 'Padian Study' and how very rare it is for someone to seroconvert because of 1 or even a handful of 'broken' condoms.
The 'Padian Study' *proved* that the 'it only takes one time' to seroconvert to be a fallacy. In practice and real life, it takes a lot more than that.
That's the thing about this thread.
There are so many posts about how it was because of 'oral' sex (another virtual impossibility unless the receiver had badly bleeding gums or ulcers and still rare even then), or just 'one' bareback incident or broken condom - or none at all!
If anyone in the dissident community read this thread they would see it as proof of the '76 ways in which someone can test HIV+ that don't mean they're positive' and the dozens of 'cross-reactive' reasons for testing positive because of vaccinations, Hep A B or C infection, or gut dysbiosis (caused by very bad diet/poppers/heavy antibiotic use/heavy recreational drug use) causing a flood of pathogenic antigens into the blood stream causing a positive test for HIV antibodies.
And if it isn't that, then peoples false memory syndrome is a big thing.

[wolfter]

Something was missing in my interpretation of this thread since I first read it.  After thinking about it for a few days now, I realized what the missing element was.  "Safe sex" and sex ed  focused on not getting a GIRL pregnant.  Since homosexuality was so sinful, there was no education concerning how to have great butt sex while maintaining safety.  The worst thing that would happen in those days were 18 years of child support and I wasn't exactly too worried about that.  We didn't have access to real world data and all we knew was what was spewed by those we trusted.  

I've never discussed the specifics of my infection mostly because it's kinda irrelevant in the grand scope of things personally.  Bill is the only man I've ever had sober sex with.  I guess the "drunk" justification worked for many in those days.  Add alcohol and hot men, and correct thought processes went to the trash pile.  I do think the message is getting through to many.  My 20 year old gay nephew shares everything with me.  Perhaps growing up with a gay uncle with AIDS hit too close to home.  I laughed when he told me he has only slept with 2 men.  I slept with that many men on a single weekend, and that's when I was straight....lol

[denb45]

Something was missing in my interpretation of this thread since I first read it.  After thinking about it for a few days now, I realized what the missing element was.  "Safe sex" and sex ed  focused on not getting a GIRL pregnant.  Since homosexuality was so sinful, there was no education concerning how to have great butt sex while maintaining safety.  The worst thing that would happen in those days were 18 years of child support and I wasn't exactly too worried about that.  We didn't have access to real world data and all we knew was what was spewed by those we trusted.  

  I never had to worry about any of that  getting a GIRL pregnant shit, as I've been shooting blanks all of my life, and found this out when I was only 16   so for me, the sky was the limit, even with other gay men  

[wolfter]

After posting, I thought about my own response.  I'm not sure education would have worked.  I had to sleep with lots of girls in highschool to maintain my image.  I managed to get one pregnant and even married her for a minute. 

[denb45]

After posting, I thought about my own response.  I'm not sure education would have worked.  I had to sleep with lots of girls in highschool to maintain my image.  I managed to get one pregnant and even married her for a minute.  

Well your none the worse for it, so don't beat yourself up over it, I got married back in 83, and never got a divorce, it was recently that me & my other half found out that she had died of an over-dose in 97, I felt
sad & guilty over it, but, her demise wasn't any of my fault   w/ that said it's important for all of us to accept
just how we all got infected, I've already done this many yrs. ago, so really I'm over it 

[Miss Philicia]

I would never date a man who was still married to a woman.  That's just how my mother raised me.

And yes, I once ditched a hot guy over that.  Plus he was psychotic.

[denb45]

I would never date a man who was still married to a woman.  That's just how my mother raised me.

And yes, I once ditched a hot guy over that.  Plus he was psychotic.

love ya baby boy, be careful out there w/ all them psychotic men
I wouldn't want anything to bad the happen to you, I'd have to come to Philly PA and kill a mother fucker that has hurt you, I'm crazy weird that way  

[Ann]

I was madly in love with the man from whom I acquired my infection. He was the love of my life and still is today. We got back together in 2007 after splitting up in 1997 - ironically I seroconverted about a week or so after we split up.

I always knew that he was screwing other women, but I turned a blind eye to it because I loved him that much. I never insisted on condoms because I was afraid he would refuse and get his sex elsewhere all of the time, instead of just now and then. I had huge self-esteem issues back then. If I thought more of myself I would have either insisted on condoms or fidelity or both. I was too scared of losing him.

I always knew I was at risk through him for something like chlamydia, but never thought I was at risk for hiv. This was in part because he worked in Africa as an aide worker during much of the '90s and had to be tested for hiv every three months as a term of his employment. It never occurred to me that he could have been infected after he quit that line of work (and stopped testing regularly as a result). Going by what the media always says about hiv, neither of us were in a risk group so I just didn't think about it.

Too bad I didn't understand back then that where sex is concerned, the only true risk group is that group of people who have unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse with people of unknown or positive hiv status.

I knew how hiv was and was not transmitted and how to prevent infection. But I was stupid in the extreme to believe the hype about risk groups.

I never stopped loving him, not even when we were diagnosed in 2001. We both changed a lot in those ten years we were apart. For me, being diagnosed was the impetus to work on my self-esteem issues (which played a big part in splitting us up - I was one needy bitch) and for him, being diagnosed made him realise the value of fidelity - and more importantly, the value of condoms.

So why didn't the prevention messages work for me? Because I was told and reassured that I wasn't in a risk group and therefore didn't need to worry about it. I suppose that is also why it didn't work for him.

What scares me is that so many people today still believe the risk group bullshit. I've lost count of the times my poz straight men friends have had people assume that they're gay or have had sex with other men, because allegedly, straight men don't get teh aids. I even see that attitude here in the forums and it just astounds me.

[denb45]

So why didn't the prevention messages work for me? Because I was told and reassured that I wasn't in a risk group and therefore didn't need to worry about it. I suppose that is also why it didn't work for him.

What scares me is that so many people today still believe the risk group bullshit. I've lost count of the times my poz straight men friends have had people assume that they're gay or have had sex with other men, because allegedly, straight men don't get teh aids. I even see that attitude here in the forums and it just astounds me.

  I hate that kinda attitude here in this forum, and I cannot wrap my mind around any of it, maybe cause
I know that EVERYONE can get teh AIDS, regardless of being str8, or LGBT, at least I always knew what the risk factor was , I was the one that put that dirty needle into my arm in SOMA in S.F.  so, I only have myself to blame for my actions, and no one else

[Inchlingblue]

What scares me is that so many people today still believe the risk group bullshit. I've lost count of the times my poz straight men friends have had people assume that they're gay or have had sex with other men, because allegedly, straight men don't get teh aids. I even see that attitude here in the forums and it just astounds me.

As I mentioned in a post above, I also got it from someone I was very much in love with and what I think is funny is that, even as a gay man, I also bought into the "risk group" thing. In my case, by the time I got it and was diagnosed the risk group talk in the media was subdivided so they didn't even talk about gay men in general but said that most new cases were coming from young latino and black gay men in cities such as DC, which made me think (LOL!) that as a "white, middle aged, middle class" gay man I wasn't as much at risk. I know, it sounds ridiculous.

The bottom line is what Ann said: where sex is concerned, the only true risk group is that group of people who have unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse with people of unknown or positive hiv status.

[Miss Philicia]

but said that most new cases were coming from young latino and black gay men in cities such as DC, which made me think (LOL!) that as a "white, middle aged, middle class" gay man I wasn't as much at risk. I know, it sounds ridiculous.

Sweetie, if you forgot Cuban is latino not white.

[Inchlingblue]

Sweetie, if you forgot Cuban is latino not white.

Sweetie, you don't know me. Trust me, I'm as white as they come, race-wise. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it just is.

[denb45]

Sweetie, you don't know me. Trust me, I'm as white as they come, race-wise. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it just is.

shit, I'm the whitest black man you've ever seen some say, I look "Cuban" or "Puerto Rican" but I'm not ya'll
I'm Black and Italian 

[Miss Philicia]

Sweetie, you don't know me. Trust me, I'm as white as they come, race-wise. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it just is.

As a true Virginia WASP with blood pre-dating the Revolution (American, not Cuban revolution) I will decide that, not you.

[denb45]

As a true Virginia WASP with blood pre-dating the Revolution (American, not Cuban revolution) I will decide that, not you.

 

[Inchlingblue]

As a true Virginia WASP with blood pre-dating the Revolution (American, not Cuban revolution) I will decide that, not you.

You look swarthy and ethnic in the pics you've posted. Just sayin'. Maybe your great great great grandma got it on with her Mandingo slave or something (not that I would blame her if she did).

It would help explain your predilection for dark meat.

[denb45]

You look swarthy and ethnic in the pics you've posted. Just sayin'. Maybe your great great great grandma got it on with her Mandingo slave or something (not that I would blame her if she did).

It would help explain your predilection for dark meat.

 

[Miss Philicia]

You look swarthy and ethnic in the pics you've posted. Just sayin'. Maybe your great great great grandma got it on with her Mandingo slave or something (not that I would blame her if she did).

It would help explain your predilection for dark meat.

Child please -- if you think Tilda Swinton is swarthy then... well

[Matt39]

What scares me is that so many people today still believe the risk group bullshit. I've lost count of the times my poz straight men friends have had people assume that they're gay or have had sex with other men, because allegedly, straight men don't get teh aids. I even see that attitude here in the forums and it just astounds me.

Unfortunately, the existence of some straight men without a single same-sex experience ever, and some straight women without a single sex experience with a bisexual man or IV drug user who are 'HIV+' has not changed the figures around risk groups either in the USA, or especially in Europe.
And it is *not* because all those 100% straight boys and girls are practising safer sex. They are not.
But the numbers/percentages are virtuallly no different now to 25 years ago and the risk groups in the West are the same - Gay men and IV Drug users.
That doesn't mean to say straight guys/girls shouldn't practice safer sex but the simple facts are that they are at a tiny fraction of the risk that MSM and IV Drug users are.
That just happens to be epidemiological fact.
The truth is the great 'straight' HIV epidemic in the West simply never happened and it is silly to pretend it did or that it is ever likely to happen.

[littleprince]

I never had to worry about any of that  getting a GIRL pregnant shit, as I've been shooting blanks all of my life, and found this out when I was only 16   so for me, the sky was the limit, even with other gay men  

Wait a minute... go back a bit. How does a gay 16 year old male work out he's shooting blanks? It's not a routine test that my dr gave me at that age.

[elf]

Why do plane crash?
Because we people are not good at constant monitoring of flight controls.
The same thing with sex.
I only had one unsafe sex in my life and that's it.
The guy was recently infected and had a high viral load, and the chance of infection soared from 0.0001% to 100 %. I didn't know he had HIV. I happened to sleep with him to forget my ex (I was going thru post-break-up depression). So, even LTR kinda guys can get HIV. It has nothing to due with being promiscuous.
On the contrary, I think promiscuous people are more clever and do avoid being affected.

I've slept with ''only'' 7 people and have HIV, and a friend of mine has slept with over 500 people and he is HIV-free. He is clever. I am dumb.


The risk of infection after one sexual intercourse can be as high as 100% if one person has high viral load (which is frequent in recently infected people). This is what most safe campaigns fail to highlight.

Yesterday I forgot to take my pills at 8 pm.  
I was taking a nap and I didn't hear the alarm.
But somehow I woke up at 11 pm and took them.

It's difficult for a human brain to check repetitive continual actions.
You have to remind yourself constantly about something.
How many people are run over just because they forget to check if there's a car going or not.

[bradjock]

Wow, some thread.  I was a bonehead, basically ignored every safe sex message.  lots of bareback, anon, group play.  sometimes partied.  actually played raw once with a guy i met in the waiting room of the STD clinic.  At the gym or on the street I still see some of the hotties I played with at steamworks, private parties, etc, and every one of them has also been tagged (but only some of them are still hot).   So no one-time slip-up, cheating bf, or other more sympathetic story for me.   

[Inchlingblue]

Wow, some thread.  I was a bonehead, basically ignored every safe sex message.  lots of bareback, anon, group play.  sometimes partied.  actually played raw once with a guy i met in the waiting room of the STD clinic.  At the gym or on the street I still see some of the hotties I played with at steamworks, private parties, etc, and every one of them has also been tagged (but only some of them are still hot).   So no one-time slip-up, cheating bf, or other more sympathetic story for me.   

When you were having lots of bareback sex did you think about HIV? I'm not asking in any judgmental way, I'm genuinely curious. I had a friend who I lost touch with who also slept around a lot and I was never able to ask him if he ever worried he might get HIV.

[woodshere]

So no one-time slip-up, cheating bf, or other more sympathetic story for me.  

But honest, which is sometimes a rarity when we discuss the way we were infected!

[poz91]

It was the late 80's, I was a shy and prudish nineteen year old living in rural NC, and I honestly had no idea that HIV/AIDS was something that I needed to be concerned about...

Every movie-of-the-week and cheesy after-school-special told me that 1) AIDS was a "big city" disease and that 2) the infected were as easy to spot and avoid as a reanimated corpse in a George A. Romero film.

The religious right had me believing that you could only get the HIV if you lived a "licentious" lifestyle of bathhouses, drugs, and orgies... damn, if I had only known that this one wasn't true 

And the only exceptions to these rules that I ever saw on the news and talk shows of the time were the rare hemophiliacs and other folks who had received tainted transfusions... and Rock Hudson.

Like others mention, though, having access to better information regarding actual risk and prevention likely wouldn't have made much of a difference to me at that age... I was invincible... and far too horny!

[Gio]

After reading the posts I can tell you exactly the reason why the safe sex message did not work for me!  Laziness, living the moment, if it happens its the price for being gay!

In the Latino community (in my neck of the woods), we have this preconceived notion that the persons appearance determines their status. Hell the guy has a wife he cant be infected or we assume the other person would be responsible when in fact we should be responsible for ourselves.  yeah we have the DL in the latino community too lol lol

It doesnt matter how many times you tell someone that unprotected sex can kill ya!  We all know that!  Its the "Not me!" mentality that wins

[bradjock]

To answer the question, no I was not thinking about HIV.    I was thinking about the hot dude banging me, and the guy behind him.  At some level I suppose I embraced the risk, viewed myself as a nasty bad boy, etc.

[drewm]

I suppose at some level this seemed appealing...

DAWSON'S 50-LOAD WEEKEND

[CaptCarl]

To answer the question, no I was not thinking about HIV.    I was thinking about the hot dude banging me, and the guy behind him.  At some level I suppose I embraced the risk, viewed myself as a nasty bad boy, etc.

Your candidness is most refreshing

CaptCarl

[denb45]

I suppose at some level this seemed appealing...

DAWSON'S 50-LOAD WEEKEND

    ok drewm  I plead the 5th on that one too 

[DanMo]

I suppose at some level this seemed appealing...

DAWSON'S 50-LOAD WEEKEND

I can see why we get along so well! 

[Basquo]

Like Ford, I was lazy, and I guess too comfortable. A year and a half of dating, then we moved in together and shortly after that stopped using condoms. Shortly after that I had what I think was serconversion symptoms, and 2 years later was diagnosed +. I saw a good many friends die from AIDS prior to that, but I think I thought that since I was in a monogamous relationship I was past the danger zone.

[bradjock]

I respect Dawson and all that he has accomplished theatrically, and I'm sure the 50 guys and Gilead appreciate his heroism that weekend.  My bad boy achievements were far more modest; the line behind me was much shorter and at least didn't look as downtrodden as Dawson"s team

[LM]

Well, I had unsafe sex before, but with one or two girls and with guys I really trusted, who got tested and stuff. But in the last few months I was feeling down and I kinda let it all out having sex with several guys in a short time. I did want raw sex, but I tried to avoid it, especially with people who were active seeking it out, since I knew they would probably have HIV. But with two guys with whom I initially started out with a condom, we ended up doing it without. Only once with each. But it was enough for me to get it. And I know it was one of them because I got tested a few months before. I had read the odds were like 1-2%, so I thought I wouldn't be that unlucky. My mistake.

But anyway, I get the feeling that there's not much the safe sex campaigns can do now: people are tired of condoms. The number of guys actively seeking out bareback sex has greatly increased from what I've seen during the years, and so has the number of movies with bareback sex. You go to porn websites and the "bareback" category is usually the most popular. How to stop that?

I believe people aren't so afraid of HIV as they once were because you don't see people dying like before, especially in such terrible ways. Most people fear it, but think they will just have to take some pills daily and that's it, no prob.

And let's face it: sex without a condom is waaay better. And even if we know the risks, sometimes we just can't hold ourselves. That's part of being human. I really don't know anyone who has always had sex with condoms, and not once had unsafe sex. And I doubt any kind of education or campaign will solve that. I think people letting go more and more of condoms might be an irreversible trend and the only efficient solution for the epidemic will be finding a cure.

[alberche]

elf, that's the point! we are humans!!! so planes crash!!!

I think this maybe has to do a little with vulnerability. Ann's experience enlightens a part of it.

Other of the ingredients is blaming others or fearing others just because they are different or a minority, in the end, more vulnerable. As an example of this, don't you wonder why the barebacking sex concerns are publically (heatlh campaings, NGOs, goverments...) focused mostly (almost only) on gay men?.

Heterosexual men and women, in a majority of cases, are barebacking (in the best of cases, they do not have safer sex all the times they have sex) and they are not specifically addressed for that. I wonder, why?

Being vulnerable, being set apart by the majorities, and being our sexualuity associated to a higher risk of HIV-1 infection, don't you think that all this pressure, year after year, and hearing all the time the same kind of messages did, in the end, its effects on us?

Of course it did. And, as soon as the HIV=death message fade out in the sea of haart, we escaped, relaxed, forgotten, dared, we rebeled... we were and are alive and barebacking. It is just sex.

Could everyone of us have done it better, being smarter, gone home that night instead to the sexbar, or just simply say no? Well... I am not so sure. Maybe we "technically" could. But we didn't, so we are here. And so what?

I do not see this kind of "guilty"relfexions in somkers when they got cancer, or in fast food eaters when they get cholesterol heights leading to a heart attack... maybe the difference is that they, if they do anyway, just blame themselves (or the government for not regulating enough fast food or tobacco, or  whatsoever...), but they do not have to cope, in addition, with a public blaming on them, as we HIVers all have to cope with.

And, also, we receive contradictory messages from institutions, from our families or from our cultural or social environment. This has also, I guess, an influence we cannot neglect.

To put a condon on is very easy. What is difficult is to set all the arguments, self esteem, logics and information in the right position to behave in the safer way every time we are confronted to it. And all this, given the person can effectively make a decision on his/her own will at that very moment, with no presence of fears or violence (physical, but also psicological and social).

In Africa, the scope is totally different, there, HIV 2 and subtypes of HIV-1 make heterosexuals more vulnerable to HIV than in western Europe or the US. And, guess who is blamed and on who are focused campaings, messages and all the stuff?: Women. Why?: they are more vulnerable, they have less rights, they are not at the same level of men, they are supossed to accept their role and for being blamed when necessary. And, the most important, I think: their sexuality does not matter, it is hidden, something you do not talk about...

As my french neighbours would say, "on connais la chanson".

Personally, I see this as an accident. Of course I've passed many nights saying myself why I was so stupid or where did I left my head that night... but, with the passing of time, I have realized that it is not realistic. I cannot blame myself. Neither blame the person that transmitted his virus to me. That night I could have been him instead of being me, very easily. One cannot pretend be in control of everithing all the time.

It is all a matter of risk perception. Risk perception is affected by vulnerability, but also by the feeling that, sooner or later you will get it anyway. So, why being worried? Better sooner than later. Maybe, underneath all our rationalism, the education and the information we had, we received, and even we transmitted to other people, in fact, those in the lines above were our real feelings and thinkings; so, we just proceeded consecquently, that's all.

I think also that meanwhile messages, informations, prevention programmes and all the stuff does not address the vulnerability issues, and assume that there will always be people that will not use condom, never or sometimes, and assume, then, that condom is a good tool but not a solution to the problem, things will no change very much. We could open this thread again into ten years, and probably will post more or less the same ideas and experiences.
 

[skeebo1969]

Heterosexual men and women, in a majority of cases, are barebacking (in the best of cases, they do not have safer sex all the times they have sex) and they are not specifically addressed for that. I wonder, why?

They are addressed....lol  by child support offices everywhere.

[alberche]

Dear skeebo,

yes... maybe if baby comes immediatelly and orgasm 9 months later... godness, why life is so complicated? 

[djayp]

i was really horny & really dumb one night. I've accepted it and am moving on

[mecch]

I've related to some of the more "human nature" explanations in the most recent posts.

[elf]

Summary:
Most of us acquired the virus in a relationship or immediately after the break up.
Love is mean.  

[woodshere]

Summary:
Most of us acquired the virus in a relationship or immediately after the break up.
Love is mean.  

If your definition of a relationship is a one night stand that lasts anywhere from 15 mins to a few hours I agree.

[denb45]

Summary:
Most of us acquired the virus in a relationship or immediately after the break up.
Love is mean.  

And just what does that mean? I didn't get teh AIDS that way    speak for yourself 

[Miss Philicia]

If your definition of a relationship is a one night stand that lasts anywhere from 15 mins to a few hours I agree.

Hey, why not -- it seems many queers think anything longer than 3 months is so "monogamous" that they can throw at their rubbers.

[denb45]

Hey, why not -- it seems many queers think anything longer than 3 months is so "monogamous" that they can throw at their rubbers.

I've been monogamous for the last 17 yrs. well maybe during times of Lent, I wasn't 

[Miss Philicia]

I've been monogamous for the last 17 yrs. well maybe during times of Lent, I wasn't 

Going by some of your posts here I'm never quite sure, but I guess you're always just joking.

[denb45]

Going by some of your posts here I'm never quite sure, but I guess you're always just joking.

Well let me see here?

Do I have a Manhunt or Adam 4 Adam profile? NO I don't, why on earth would I need that?

I'm I a big ole flirt? YES I'm

Do I have wicked since of humor round here?  YES I do

so, are you sure NOW    OH wait don't answer that one, didn't you mother WARN you of deviants like me 

 

[gonzo]

I knew the risks, yet 20+ years ago I felt this could never happen to me.