Author Topic: Caster Semenya - Man or Woman? (Read 11440 times)

Rev. Moon · « **on:** August 21, 2009, 02:52:46 pm »

I keep seeing and reading a lot about this athlete. I wonder what the final outcome will be. If Semenya is indeed a female she deserves one serious apology.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/david_epstein/08/21/semenya/index.html?eref=sihpT1#

Cliff · « **Reply #1 on:** August 21, 2009, 03:07:25 pm »

I assume she is who she says she is..can't just say cause she's manly that she must be a man. Has the IAAF not seen some of the women competing in shot put?

But perhaps a clue is in her name!

Ann · « **Reply #2 on:** August 21, 2009, 03:18:36 pm »

Quote from: Cliff on August 21, 2009, 03:07:25 pm

But perhaps a clue is in her name!

Like a boy named Sue?

megasept · « **Reply #3 on:** August 21, 2009, 03:37:24 pm »

Quote from: Cliff on August 21, 2009, 03:07:25 pm

I assume she is who she says she is..can't just say cause she's manly that she must be a man. Has the IAAF not seen some of the women competing in shot put?

But perhaps a clue is in her name!

Caster may be among the <1% (higher rate evident among Bantu; anyone, why is that?) that are somewhat ambiguous sexually. Gender is not only determined by physical appearance (genitalia), but genetic factors.

South Africa's ANC says the investigation is racist. Other S African commentators have made more thoughtful statements.

What's sad is 1) Whatever she is, Caster was born this way, so this is not a MtF taking unfair advantage of gender segregation in high-level athletic competition 2) She is a gifted athlete with a great attitude. 3) If she's banned entirely from competing as a female, on the balance, that would seem unfair 3) There are others like her. 4) She's probably not doping with testosterone like the (victimized) female athletes of the old GDR (East Germany).

Probably a whole new set of rules/formulas need to be written, but maybe that would INCLUDE athletes like her and EXCLUDE MtF gender-reassigned individuals, or folks "doping" with hormones/steroids, etc.

The alternative is for men and women to compete together, and I don't see many advocates of that.

If Caster sets a new world record, some other female athlete will beat it soon enough. Some folks have longer legs, but a few short athletes race faster anyway.

We aren't yet ready socially, for what science reveals. The chasm may increase.

-megasept

GSOgymrat · « **Reply #4 on:** August 21, 2009, 04:10:09 pm »

Why can't they just do a genetic test?

Merlin · « **Reply #5 on:** August 21, 2009, 06:45:54 pm »

She looks all woman to me.

Have seen some ladies before with similar masculine features but somehow you can sense they are women.

Cliff · « **Reply #6 on:** August 21, 2009, 07:14:43 pm »

Quote from: Ann on August 21, 2009, 03:18:36 pm

Like a boy named Sue?

Well, more like girl named SEMENya. Bad joke.

Cliff · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2009, 07:26:01 pm »

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 21, 2009, 04:10:09 pm

Why can't they just do a genetic test?

They have, but the results take a while and they aren't certain even when those results are returned.

From what the IAAF have said they need experts to judge the results of anatomy, physiology, chromosomal makeup and genetic composition of the athlete. This isn't a clear cut area, apparently. The outcome is based on a decision by a panel not one particular test.

Rev. Moon · « **Reply #8 on:** September 08, 2009, 07:29:05 pm »

Update, Caster got a make-over and now she is all lady-like. See below.

Embattled track star Caster Semenya gets new coach, new look

"Gender-tested South African star Caster Semenya gets a makeover for a magazine photo shoot. "

GSOgymrat · « **Reply #9 on:** September 08, 2009, 11:53:29 pm »

Isn't it magical how a makeover can solve almost any problem!

mecch · « **Reply #10 on:** September 09, 2009, 10:27:51 pm »

Genetic test. Maybe she is ambiguous.

If she is ambiguous, then the sports committees can decide what to do generally in such situations.
There are reasons sports competitions are split for the genders. Maybe we want to change that, or not, who knows.

If sports stays with the status quo (most competitions remins split by gender) - and she is ambiguous, I vote sorry for her, its not fair to other women.

IF, the big if, she is ambiguous, she has evey right to define herself as she wishes but competition is another matter.

What with all the gender transitioning these days, these questions are never easy and general rules are hard to come by. Institutions make their own. I think transexuals of both genders are acceptable at all-women's colleges these days. Don't know if they can compete interscholastically, however. And so on and so on.

Dale Parker · « **Reply #11 on:** September 11, 2009, 12:46:54 am »

There is a report on MSN.foxsports.com that a Sydney Australia newspaper says she has both male and female sex organs. The IAAF has the gender report but has not read it yet and has declined to comment at this time.

HollyStar · « **Reply #12 on:** September 11, 2009, 01:09:29 am »

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/10051660/Report:-Semenya-has-male,-female-sex-organs?GT1=39002

I just feel sad for her, that such personal information is now out the there for the entire world to see. I'll be curious to see if she will be allowed to compete anymore.

There is a comment area in the link above and I was dumb founded by some of the ignorant and cruel comments. Some people!

next2u · « **Reply #13 on:** September 11, 2009, 01:11:52 am »

yeah, that report is coming out in a number of news sites and wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

where are our intersexed/ts people? i dunno how i feel about this one. i mean, shit, it's not like she knew. i understand the logic behind stripping her of her medal, but i dont agree with it.

next2u · « **Reply #14 on:** September 11, 2009, 01:19:09 am »

Re: Caster Semenya - Man or Woman?

definitely woman - she has identifies as female.

GNYC09 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 11, 2009, 08:30:14 am »

Fox isn't known for having the most open-minded or sophisticated readership. The nasty comments are what I'd expect to read/see on one of Rupert Murdoch's properties.

David_CA · « **Reply #16 on:** September 11, 2009, 08:58:20 am »

Quote from: next2u on September 11, 2009, 01:11:52 am

yeah, that report is coming out in a number of news sites and wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

where are our intersexed/ts people? i dunno how i feel about this one. i mean, shit, it's not like she knew. i understand the logic behind stripping her of her medal, but i dont agree with it.

From what I understand, they're not planning on stripping her of her medal. If this is the case, then why the big to-do? A quote on the wikipedia page listed above mentions a "..."rare medical condition" giving her an unfair competitive advantage". Sun Ming Ming had excess growth hormone (hence his 7'9" height) due to a pituitary tumor. He had the tumor removed, as the growth hormone was causing other issues that would effect his performance. Should he not be allowed to play basketball? Certainly a pituitary tumor would be classified as a 'rare medical condition' which gave an unfair advantage.

(edited for a damned typo)

mecch · « **Reply #17 on:** September 11, 2009, 01:23:01 pm »

Quote from: next2u on September 11, 2009, 01:11:52 am

i mean, shit, it's not like she knew.

Could you clarify this please. She didn't know what? That she is hermaphrodite? That's hard to believe, given that she is a world class athelete and been surrounded by sports physicians.

That she didn't understand the controversy that would stick to her participation in gender specific competitive sports? Again, please. If she didn't know, her trainers certainly did.

She made a decision to pursue a career in competitive sports and has a right to her day in "sports" court, or whatever may be the governing body - she has a right to argue for participation as a female, male, or whatever.

But to expect it to be a non issue is ridiculous. Better it is forced and sports comes to term with intersex.

megasept · « **Reply #18 on:** September 11, 2009, 03:06:17 pm »

Quote from: mecch on September 11, 2009, 01:23:01 pm

Could you clarify this please. She didn't know what? That she is hermaphrodite? That's hard to believe, given that she is a world class athelete and been surrounded by sports physicians...Better it is forced and sports comes to term with intersex.

Right. Gender-integrated competition is not viable.

Many people defy absolute male or female medical classification. But few have been classified as hermaphrodites. Social taboo?

Wiki is closer to fact than Fox News, but not the Holy Grail.

Caster could expect controversy, like POZ who speak out, and a few hundred million other misfits worldwide. She has my full support (even if some of her supporters go off the deep end).

-megasept

PS For all its failings, post-Apartheid South Africa has one hell of a constitution, protecting all its citizens.

Cliff · « **Reply #19 on:** September 11, 2009, 06:46:00 pm »

I'm with you, David. I don't think it's so black and white as some are making it out to be. I don't know her and so I think it's a bit unfair to suggest she should have known she was a hermaphrodite. Who knows what she knew or believed? Cut her some slack. This has got to be a terrible and embarrassing time for her not to mention the way the IAAF handled it was pitiful.

Anywho, I think most top athletes have some sort of unfair genetic advantage. Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt are freaks of nature! Ban 'em, I say. OK, maybe not Michael but at least ban Usain. I'm so damn tired of Jamaicans winning everything in a sport that used to be dominated by Americans.

Quote from: David_NC on September 11, 2009, 08:58:20 am

From what I understand, they're not planning on stripping her of her medal. If this is the case, then why the big to-do? A quote on the wikipedia page listed above mentions a "..."rare medical condition" giving her an unfair competitive advantage". Sun Ming Ming had excess growth hormone (hence his 7'9" height) due to a pituitary tumor. He had the tumor removed, as the growth hormone was causing other issues that would effect his performance. Should he not be allowed to play basketball? Certainly a pituitary tumor would be classified as a 'rare medical condition' which gave an unfair advantage.

(edited for a damned typo)

Rev. Moon · « **Reply #20 on:** September 11, 2009, 06:55:04 pm »

Update below from Sports Illustrated. I can tell that this whole debacle is going to take a major psychological and professional toll on this poor girl. As noted in the article, I seriously doubt that she knew about "internal male organs." How would anyone even imagine that unless determined by a doctor? People are being quite cruel out there. In my opinion she should not be stripped of any wins; I cannot see how "internal male organs" would have given her any edge. Not like one's penis is of any use while running track.

Semenya withdraws from event amid firestorm of anger

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/more/09/11/semenya.withdraws.outrage/index.html

excerpt:

Quote

The South African Press Association quotes her coach, Michael Seme, as saying she will not take part in the 4,000 meters at the national cross country championships in Pretoria on Saturday.

He had said earlier this week that Semenya would run.

Asked Friday why she withdrew, Seme said she was "not feeling well."

Gender tests on Semenya determined she has internal male sexual organs, Australian newspapers reported Friday, triggering new outrage from South Africa and her father, who called her critics "crazy" and "sick."

The International Association of Athletics Federations, which ordered the testing, refused to confirm or deny the reports in the Sydney Daily Telegraph and the Sydney Morning Herald that Semenya is a hermaphrodite with no ovaries and internal testes that produce large amounts of testosterone.

The IAAF said it is reviewing the test results on the 18-year-old runner and will not issue a final decision until November.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/more/09/11/semenya.withdraws.outrage/index.html#ixzz0QqEIKIQH

GNYC09 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 11, 2009, 07:02:20 pm »

Although I completely support Semenya and feel bad over what she must be going through now (shame, humiliation, possibly being prevented from ever competing again), I can't imagine s/he didn't know s/he was intersexed. S/he's never menstruated and sports orgs test their players annually for drugs and hormones (testosterone). I would venture to say the South African sports committee is more at fault than Semenya. Hopefully her current struggle helps to raise awareness about the intersexed (they were revered as sacred by many traditional cultures btw).

mecch · « **Reply #22 on:** September 12, 2009, 09:49:40 am »

Yup I agree with you GNYC09. She knew. But so what. That's not the issue.

If she feels like the fight, she should push the envelope. If not, that's her choice. It would be interesting to push the envelope cause then we can throw in lots of questions - such as doping. Remember the Eastern Bloc women swimmers?! Artificially induced advantage. Unfair. So, is a natural but extremely rare advantage OK?

Yes Michael Phelps is a freak of nature.

Yes, in fact, many great runners and athletes generally are genetically extremely symmetrical.

Look, you have to draw the line somewhere, even if it is arbitrary, if you want to keep sex separated sports. If I were a standard issue "woman" runner, I would feel gypped losing to Semenya. I wouldn't hold it against her personally, it just would seem unfair.

GNYC09 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 12, 2009, 11:21:54 am »

I'm all for pushing the envelope but maybe she should be competing in the men's races instead of the women's? Who's to say?

David_CA · « **Reply #24 on:** September 12, 2009, 12:19:23 pm »

Since she has internal testicles and testosterone, wouldn't it have shown up if she'd been tested for hormones in the past (as indicated in this thread)? Perhaps they only test for synthetic testosterone.

megasept · « **Reply #25 on:** September 12, 2009, 03:57:56 pm »

Quote from: David_NC on September 12, 2009, 12:19:23 pm

Since she has internal testicles and testosterone, wouldn't it have shown up if she'd been tested for hormones in the past (as indicated in this thread)? Perhaps they only test for synthetic testosterone.

Since all males and females have both testosterone and estrogen, what exactly would "show up" other than a slightly different ratio?

megasept

mecch · « **Reply #26 on:** September 14, 2009, 03:11:09 pm »

I have never seen a woman runner with her body before and i competed in uni and see the Athletissima in Lausanne every year.

next2u · « **Reply #27 on:** September 14, 2009, 08:54:57 pm »

google female abs and go to images. you'll see some buff weight lifting ladies. i have seen abs and arms on a chic like that before.

the trebmeister · « **Reply #28 on:** September 14, 2009, 10:35:51 pm »

that humans still hold contests to decide anything other than ephemera amazes me. it's ALL ephemera regardless but who cares? she can have 3 undescended testicles and 15 udders for all i care. why hound the poor being because she doesn't fit the "average?" i don't care if she's racing with men, women, dogs, or horses -- all that matters is who wins, isn't it? that's the bottom line even by darwinian standards.

i know in the late 20th century those dirty commies supposedly changed plumbing and altered hormonal outputs to achieve olympic advantages but, again, who gives a shit? it's all simply games. if you don't win one try harder next time.

mecch · « **Reply #29 on:** September 15, 2009, 09:07:27 am »

Quote from: next2u on September 14, 2009, 08:54:57 pm

google female abs and go to images. you'll see some buff weight lifting ladies. i have seen abs and arms on a chic like that before.

I have never seen a RUNNER. yeah weightlifters, but we sort of assume they are on drugs, though that may not always be the case.

megasept · « **Reply #30 on:** September 16, 2009, 06:39:29 pm »

Quote from: mecch on September 15, 2009, 09:07:27 am

I have never seen a RUNNER. yeah weightlifters, but we sort of assume they are on drugs, though that may not always be the case.

World-class sprinters are WEIGHT LIFTERS (resistance training) because running alone will not build massive shoulders, arms, and lats. The bodies changed when the notion that "being top-heavy" was an impediment to quick times. Drugs aren't required, but lots of hard work is.

-megasept (who only runs a block at a time).

mecch · « **Reply #31 on:** September 17, 2009, 06:50:53 am »

Sorry, no bodies like hers at Athletissima and they are world class.

Angel-Ronnie · « **Reply #32 on:** September 18, 2009, 01:56:46 am »

If it had to be a man... with internal ovaries and vagina but he has a dick on the outside would the controversy be the same??? will society treat him like they do Caster? the 18 year old has withdrawn from society here in South Africa... all over every country she is being slandered but if it had to be a man who is more woman then it wouldn't have made the headlines... society will say it is a woman caught in a mans body..... just a thought though.....

mecch · « **Reply #33 on:** September 18, 2009, 02:47:20 am »

I dont think anyone is slandering her in this column, at least.

GNYC09 · « **Reply #34 on:** September 21, 2009, 07:49:50 pm »

Hey, I found a web page called "Show Caster you care," which a South African paper has created. Click here to visit the site if interested.

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Author Topic: Caster Semenya - Man or Woman? (Read 11440 times)