POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: 404error on October 21, 2007, 08:11:00 pm
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I've noticed during my brief tenure as a member of this website that there seems to be some sort of antimocity between some long term survivors and those who are more recently diagnosed. I'm wondering what this is exactly? As someone who has only been living with HIV for just under two years I would fall into the n00b category. I'm curious as to why this comes up from time to time. What are the concerns of those who have lived and battled with the disease for years? Do they feel that those who are recently diagnosed are less concerned with the long term repercussions of livng with HIV/AIDS than those who have been dealing with the disease for 5, 10, 20+ years? I think ultimately we're all living with the same disease whether it was contracted 27 years ago, 27 months ago, or 27 minutes ago. This however doesn't seem to be the way that many members of this site seem to view things. I'm not suggesting that my own views are superior in any way to the views of someone else. I'd just like to know why I come across posts where a LTS is coming down hard on someone who has been more recently diagnosed. I'd like to know why oftentimes, these posts come across as bitter and/or condescending. Is this a way of stratifying the hardships of living and coping with HIV/AIDS?
I'm not picking any fights here. I'm not suggesting that one group is wrong while the other is right. I'd just like to know what exactly this is and why it happens as I've experienced attitudes like this through a local ASO as well.
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In the time it'll take me to write something decent, I'm sure there'll be scads of lightning-fast typists on the case and do a better job than me. But just for the fun of it:
There are actually many subsets of folk here on AIDSmeds, what with gay men and straight women and straight men, Europeans and Americans and Canadians and Aussies and Asians and the stray African. There are cautious types and risk-takers and those who take their meds and those who don't always. We break down into those who never practice safe(r) sex and those who wouldn't consider sex unless it's wrapped and those who will cop to enjoying recreational drugs, those who never do them and those who do them but choose not to discuss it in an open forum.
We each have our own perspective and viewpoint and (usually) respect the other's choices (except for conservatives who are always fair game ;D )
Now to the matter at hand, that endless and tiresome conflict of noobs and dinosaurs:
The recently diagnosed tend to have not actually suffered from opportunistic infections or nasty side effects from the meds. They may well not know anyone else who is poz and open about it. They frequently have great jobs with excellent insurance and have no concept of how it feels to live on $500 a month (more or less). They probably never experienced the loss of a friend or partner to AIDS.
It is also easy to be condescending of the 1970s-80s, when many of us dinosaurs were randy bright young things. It all seems like such ancient history that there are no practical applications for the lessons learned in those by-gone times to the lives of today's newly-infected. Our struggles seem quaint relics of another era, and our practical concerns and pragmatic attitudes can seem tinged with bitterness.
Noobs are fed hope in the promises of future treatments that many of we dinosaurs fear we'll not live to see. But wise noobs listen to our stories and respect our experience, just like wise dinos don't crush optimism out of hand as Pollyannish hogwash.
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Good post, Bucko.
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Proud to be a dinosaur :D
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I'd like to know why oftentimes, these posts come across as bitter and/or condescending. Is this a way of stratifying the hardships of living and coping with HIV/AIDS?
You say you don't want to pick fights Up, but that is the same question I ask myself every time you complain about the double standard you receive as a white heterosexual male.
I think ultimately we are all living with the same disease whether we are gay, straight, black or white, man or woman. This however doesn't seem to be the way you view things.
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I'm not picking fights here. We're I picking a fight, the above mentioned quote would read
I'd like to know why oftentimes, these posts come across as bitter and/or condescending. THIS IS a way of stratifying the hardships of living and coping with HIV/AIDS.
as opposed to
I'd like to know why oftentimes, these posts come across as bitter and/or condescending. Is this a way of stratifying the hardships of living and coping with HIV/AIDS?
All I've done here is ask a question. I've not accused anyone of anything.
I think ultimately we are all living with the same disease whether we are gay, straight, black or white, man or woman. This however doesn't seem to be the way you view things.
Well, we are and we aren't. Biologically speaking, HIV is dwindling our CD4 counts and wreaking havoc on our immune systems. Regardless of age, race, gender or sexuality this is pretty well a truth. In this regard we are all living with the same disease. Socially, I wouldn't say we are all equal at all. We are only equal to those whom we can be categorized to be the same as. Gays with Gays, Women with Women, IDU's with IDU's, pper class employed persons with adequete insurance coverage with upper class empoyed persons with adequete insurance coverage etc. etc.
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Socially, I wouldn't say we are all equal at all. We are only equal to those whom we can be categorized to be the same as. Gays with gays, women with women, IDU's with IDU's, etc. etc.
Bingo. This is what this thread is about and this is what you are about. And yet you have the nerve to come in here and accuse people of grouping together as old versus new.
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I didn't "accuse" people of grouping as old and new. I was identifying it as something that definitely does happen, essentially I was presenting fact.
I appreciate the sidetracking though. Now, back to the original post thanks!
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When I first saw this thread, I was afraid it was going to erupt into something or other. I don't consider myself a newbie or a dinosaur but a woman who is dealing with a virus and trying to make the best of it. I have much respect for those who have been dealing with it longer than I have and I do my best to try to help those who is new to it. I try to understand those who may seem bitter because of it because they have reasons for feeling the way they do. I guess in my eyes it's a matter of respect one way or the other.
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as a noob, i have to say i have received some pretty brash responses from some of the old skoolers. in all honesty, those dinosaurs were correct, and i can respect that. i guess i've been speaking with a lot of pollyannas and i need to hear a cassandra every now and then. life isn't sugarcoated, and the old skoolers have seen it first hand. i respect this, and i respect them. all i got to say is a lil bit of tough love never hurt.
**i read a newbie post saying life wasn't much different now, all he had to do was take meds. this is not realistic for all of us. taking meds? side effects? possible resistance? each of these we could write a book about. the old skoolers are right, the fight isn't gonna be easy. but it is better because of them.
btw, we all may have the same disease, but we are all far from equal. this conversation, if it were to ensue, should be continued on a different thread.
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Good post, Bucko.
Yep, as always Bucko sums it up pretty well. :) It'd be interesting to explore the influence of nationality that he touches on. To be frank I've always sensed a little less optimism amongst many of our American friends here. I wonder how much of that is driven by the healthcare system down there, that seems to tie people to jobs they hate, or force them to beg for care when they can no longer work.
I really feel for you guys and gals suffering through that. If there's one thing we Canucks should be taking notice of, its be ready to fight for our universal healthcare system in the face of those who will try and dismantle it (aka Stephen Harper)
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as a noob, i have to say i have received some pretty brash responses from some of the old skoolers. in all honesty, those dinosaurs were correct, and i can respect that. i guess i've been speaking with a lot of pollyannas and i need to hear a cassandra every now and then. life isn't sugarcoated, and the old skoolers have seen it first hand. i respect this, and i respect them. all i got to say is a lil bit of tough love never hurt.
**i read a newbie post saying life wasn't much different now, all he had to do was take meds. this is not realistic for all of us. taking meds? side effects? possible resistance? each of these we could write a book about. the old skoolers are right, the fight isn't gonna be easy. but it is better because of them.
btw, we all may have the same disease, but we are all far from equal. this conversation, if it were to ensue, should be continued on a different thread.
So the noob who I helped gang up on not long ago (I wouldn't take a word of my posts back), sees the benefit of being on the receiving end of a little "tough love" and perspective from we "dinosaurs". I appreciate that! So let this dinosaur take the side of the newbies, as much as old skoolers.
1) TO: Dinosaurs: Nobody likes being lectured, and it's easy to lecture when you have more knowledge or years more experience than the one who starts a thread.
2) TO: Dinosaurs: For the gay men here, remember disclosure issues (sexuality/HIV) are high on a newbie's agenda. Our times we're decidedly different than more recent. If you're "over" sex, it's not that way for so many others (of all ages, both genders).
3) TO: Newbies: Don't be flippant or careless when expressing joy over your fine #s. Many who are reading can't get there anymore. While most can appreciate your success, it may painfully remind them of their difficulties.
4) Cassandra? :o
Bucko made many fine points! HIV is a big world, much bigger than the First World. The differences Northernguy points out between the US "system" and Canadian (or UK or Netherlands or French, etc) universal healthcare makes us light years apart. And sure as individuals, we are different types. For instance, I like my privacy. I would never dream of routinely sharing my #s in a public forum. Or telling everyone at work, and the list goes on. More open people here generate fascinating discussion, especially regarding mental illness.
8) -megasept
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Brent has made several fine points. As a "dinosaur" myself, I would like to help the n00bs. But sometimes, it takes a LTS to understand a LTS. And for me, sometimes what I say comes out callous to a n00b, even if I don't mean it to be. Quite a few of the more recently diagnosed have really good jobs etc. as stated above. I've lost countless friends, had a few OIs, been megadosed with AZT when this was the norm, and have long-term effects of both the HIV and the multiple meds I've been on. I was diagnosed as having full-blown AIDS 13 years ago. And I'm on disability, trying to just get by. Not a lot of the more recently diagnosed can say that. But we're all attempting to live with this virus. There are different personalities here because every person has their own unique personality. It's just a fact of life. And I try to be tolerant of everyone's personality. Sometimes I might get a little snippy if I feel someone is being attacked. To be quite honest, I'd probably side with a LTS over a n00b. But that's me. Up, you just have to accept that wherever there are different people, there are going to be differences of opinion.
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I hope I treat all of us the same. Being positive is being positive. I think sometimes the newbies don't want to hear what the oldtimes have to say for a multitude of reasons. I'm not a shrink, can't tell you the friction occurs.
I love EVERYONE!
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I read and digest the words and advice from LTS, the advice is priceless but i also try to have some empathy with them. What they have been through i can only imagine and so what if they are a little ratty at times, i know i would be, i would not change the LTS for anything, with the problems they face they are still on here to offer help.
Being a n00b i am always re-reading my posts before i add them to the site as i am aware that sometimes what you write can be read a different way (this one has taken me a good 15 min to write so far). There is a great fear that i will offend/upset someone with what i write but that can be the nature of the beast which is the Internet.
If everyone takes time to understand where people are coming from and maybe take their posts with a pinch of salt then it maybe could be a little easier on here.
Paul xXx
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I can't even begin to fanthom the hardships that the LTS diagnosed in the 80s, or even someone diagnosed 10-8 years ago, had been thru and are still going thru. I can't begin to understand how hard it is to live on welfare esp in a none-welfare state. Or be socially rejected and discriminated. Or lose numerous friends in such a devastating way. Or be given a death sentence. Or serve as ginea pigs for the much cruder forms of the already harsh drugs that we have today. I just can't... but I think about it very often. There are people here that are just incredible. They are the vast majority. I think everyone, not just people with HIV, can learn from them about extreme survival against all odds. I really am amazed and thankful that I have the opportunity to learn from them, even the ones that can be a little grouchy. I couldn't care less, they have absolutely earned that right and any right, if there was any sort of justice in the world, they would not just be given some sort of basic disability allowence, they would be actually awarded for their immense contribution to society.
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As someone diagnosed 19 years ago, I guess I fall into the old fart category.
I agree with what Paul wrote in that if you assume or misinterpret anything in print, then of course you can find the worst of intentions. But it’s important to remember most of us here are HIV positive and that is our common ground.
I skip over the squabbles and fights and take and give what I need and leave the rest, because frankly, life is too short to waste.
Daniel
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The recently diagnosed tend to have not actually suffered from opportunistic infections or nasty side effects from the meds. They may well not know anyone else who is poz and open about it. They frequently have great jobs with excellent insurance and have no concept of how it feels to live on $500 a month (more or less). They probably never experienced the loss of a friend or partner to AIDS.
It is also easy to be condescending of the 1970s-80s, when many of us dinosaurs were randy bright young things. It all seems like such ancient history that there are no practical applications for the lessons learned in those by-gone times to the lives of today's newly-infected. Our struggles seem quaint relics of another era, and our practical concerns and pragmatic attitudes can seem tinged with bitterness.
Noobs are fed hope in the promises of future treatments that many of we dinosaurs fear we'll not live to see. But wise noobs listen to our stories and respect our experience, just like wise dinos don't crush optimism out of hand as Pollyannish hogwash.
Some things need to be repeated. Thanks Bucko!!!
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I will be 2 years diagnosed this week (or is it three...hmmm) anyway when I came on here I was a very confused scared guy. Not because I didn't know what HIV was or how I could ever get infected but more of the What Now?
It was the old skoolers (I dint like that term - how about more experienced?) that kept me from jumping out a window. They put it bluntly, it is gonna suck but you have to keep positive to keep living.
I think a lot of newbies don't want to hear that. They want to hear "it will all be ok". You know what, it wont!!! It may not be the horror show that it was in the 80s, but your life will drastically change. I am 32 years old and go to the doctors more then my 65 year old parents...and my numbers are good. I constantly worry about losing my job and insurance. I worry about rejection, OI, will the drugs work for me etc.
I honestly say I have never gotten any flippent answer from any Old Skooler, I think in part because I respect their struggle and look to them for guidance and honesty. I like to know what is coming down the pike...there is a way to do that and stay positive.
But hey, that's just me
Pete
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I'm not picking any fights here. I'm not suggesting that one group is wrong while the other is right. I'd just like to know what exactly this is and why it happens
Looking into my crystal ball, quite frankly I only see this issue of n00bs vs. dinos getting worse. Oh not because any of us are bad people, nor even because any of us is right or wrong (actually BOTH are right, it just depends on your situation). Sheer numbers factor into my prediction.
Every day, more n00bs will join aidsmeds. Why? Everyday more people find out that they are poz. For most the them hiv will actually be a one-a-day manageable chronic illness still resulting in a "normal" lifespan with only mild complications. Why? because the great meds that we have now (and hopefully even better in the future) are changing the rules of the game. It's quite possible than some n00bs may have HIV and never reach AIDS status (thereby actually staying "n00bs" forever) before dying of old age.
On the other hand, many of us now have been on this path for a while. We've seen many pass away and we've waited for the next med as the current regimen fails. Many of us have been hospitalized, and come face to face with our own mortality. Depression and grief have been unwanted companions. As time goes by more of us that began pre-Haart, will be, quite truthfully, growing older and sicker. The meds may not work as well. We'll have more complications. Unfortunately too, we'll also get rather tired of the n00bs going on about how wonderful life is, while us dinos are still clutching the toliet puking from meds.
From my own personal POV, I'm not really certain how happy I can claim to be that I outlived my partner by 14 yrs. For him, the results of HIV/AIDS came quick. For me, it's been a very long hard struggle to continue. Unfortunately, I'm not going to ever be able to be as optimistic as a n00b; but I don't claim defeat either. My life dealing with this has been hard; but it's still better than being dead. ;D So I try not to harbor ill-will when I read the "happy" posts; though I will admit to some envy/jealousy. ;)
In another thread (i should go look it up) someone made the comment that on the timeline of this illness/treatment some of us are just on the wrong side of the coin. With the medical advances, there are now more people on both sides of the coin, so we're bound to clash on our views. And for some time to come.
I think that Daniel's advice is worth keeping in mind:
I skip over the squabbles and fights and take and give what I need and leave the rest, because frankly, life is too short to waste.
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I agree with what Bucko said, though I need to add one other vital thing for noobs in their understand of the old Skoolers....the LTS expereinces with everything thing from regimen failure, resistance, and long term side effects of meds are far from things that only happened once a long time ago to somebody else.
Just because there are better treatment options today does not equate that the above items are no longer happening to others or will not happen to the newly infected.
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I think Bucko's post summed up a lot of points very thoroughly and accurately I'd agree with I lot of it.
I think it's almost less about newbie vs. oldbie, but complicated by a host of other issues that Bucko touched on. I find myself agreeing a lot more often with some LTS than some newbies on some issues, but then I agree with some "newbies" or "midtermers" who wouldn't be considered LTS oftentimes too (and I'm far from a newbie, yet probably not yet considered an LTS, so I guess I'm a "midtermer"). And then some newbies and old schoolers I never agree with. It's very complicated. There have been huge improvements in meds that I experience myself and people around me benefitting from, butt here are still huge disparities. I see both sides and we have a long way to go still.
I say just be honest about your opinions (be true to yourself and what you live and see and believe) and keep an open mind to learn from others and people you feel are being genuinely helpful.
Good comment Bucko...
Peace
:)
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I skip over the squabbles and fights and take and give what I need and leave the rest, because frankly, life is too short to waste.
You're my hero, zen master Dan... ;D
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Oh no!
Does this mean I have to shave my head and start wearing robes?
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In the time it'll take me to write something decent, I'm sure there'll be scads of lightning-fast typists on the case and do a better job than me. But just for the fun of it:
There are actually many subsets of folk here on AIDSmeds, what with gay men and straight women and straight men, Europeans and Americans and Canadians and Aussies and Asians and the stray African. There are cautious types and risk-takers and those who take their meds and those who don't always. We break down into those who never practice safe(r) sex and those who wouldn't consider sex unless it's wrapped and those who will cop to enjoying recreational drugs, those who never do them and those who do them but choose not to discuss it in an open forum.
We each have our own perspective and viewpoint and (usually) respect the other's choices (except for conservatives who are always fair game ;D )
Now to the matter at hand, that endless and tiresome conflict of noobs and dinosaurs:
The recently diagnosed tend to have not actually suffered from opportunistic infections or nasty side effects from the meds. They may well not know anyone else who is poz and open about it. They frequently have great jobs with excellent insurance and have no concept of how it feels to live on $500 a month (more or less). They probably never experienced the loss of a friend or partner to AIDS.
It is also easy to be condescending of the 1970s-80s, when many of us dinosaurs were randy bright young things. It all seems like such ancient history that there are no practical applications for the lessons learned in those by-gone times to the lives of today's newly-infected. Our struggles seem quaint relics of another era, and our practical concerns and pragmatic attitudes can seem tinged with bitterness.
Noobs are fed hope in the promises of future treatments that many of we dinosaurs fear we'll not live to see. But wise noobs listen to our stories and respect our experience, just like wise dinos don't crush optimism out of hand as Pollyannish hogwash.
.....worth repeating !
Alan
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I am a newbie (thank you for your applauses ;D )
Now, seriously... I am newbie, that has had to deal with side effects. I started meds like 14 months ago, and already had to have a stop in them, because of REAL bad muscle pain (that cannot be diagnosed).
And then, life comes at you fast. And then your blood work shows that your otherwise young perfect and beatiful body, begins a battle that -like it or not- will kill us. And when you face side effects, or the indredibly tough dizzyness of your meds, then you realize that this is not a one-pill a day thing. And it is in that same moment, that you begin to understand and feel a little bit like and old timer. Because just in case that we haven't noticed, even when for SOME of us (I hope i am lucky), the prognosis COULD be good, it is not for everyone. Put plain and simple: Christine just died. AIDS kills. HIV kills.
And then, fear takes over you. And ten thousand what-if : If I lose my job? If my friends find-out? if people at my neighbourhood find out? If I disclose to a cute guy? If meds fail? If I cannot afford meds anymore? If I get kidney stones? If my liver simply fails? if,? if? if?
I respect old-timers. Without them, many of the meds, and nice thing we take for granted today, wouldn't be here.
Alex
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"stand together or fall apart"
Shouldn't this be a place to focus on commonalities? I am at work right now and I feel'different" enough. I come to this forum because you have something in common with me. Some of you have more experience dealing with it and good advice. Some have more experience and crappy advice. Some have been very sick, some have not. Everyone has felt the 'weight" of it. Anyone who tries to denigrate that because i was infected in a different decade has seperated themselves from the herd emotionally. You may get some ego inflation from it but in the end what all us Noobs say or experiences we share are less valid in your eyes and if you live long enough you will end up alone in the room full of friends
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As a fossil, er... dinosaur, it would be my hope to share whatever experience or knowledge I have with those infected more recently and, by doing this, possibly help them avoid some of the things some of us have had to live through.
On the other hand, I need the vitality, energy and hope many of the newer people have, regardless of their age, to help keep me from stagnating and losing touch with things as they change.
So, I think it is a pretty good thing that these types of interchanges happen.
HUGS,
Mark
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As a fossil, er... dinosaur, it would be my hope to share whatever experience or knowledge I have with those infected more recently and, by doing this, possibly help them avoid some of the things some of us have had to live through.
On the other hand, I need the vitality, energy and hope many of the newer people have, regardless of their age, to help keep me from stagnating and losing touch with things as they change.
Agreed.
At 37 and three years into diagnosis, I catagorically fit into the newbie column. Yet that's not a classification that I identify with at all. The Old Skooler term doesn't particularly click with me either, as it seems to have an outdated feel to it. This whole tired and rehashed business has always baffled me, and now it rather bores me as well. I've always assumed HIV to be a commonality that would render all these other classifications (including IDU's, sex workers, what have you) moot.
Time and again, HIV has shown us all where and how we weren't paying proper attention.
So you tell me which voices are less important.
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I often find much wisdom in postings by the recently diagnosed, and sometimes I disagree with those who've lived with this disease for decades.
I wish we'd stop using the labels of newbies and old-timers and just treat everyone as individuals and try to be helpful to each other.
Allan
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Very well stated, Allan.
I always say this in these type of threads, so now is as good a time as any for me to say it: We are all on the same journey......we are just at different points along the way.
As one who has a few miles on his odometer, I'd like to take this opportunity to sincerely thank those of you that consider yourself "newbies" who have shown much respect and appreciation for those of us who have lived with this for 10, 15, and 20+ years. Your kindness has not gone unnoticed. In the South, we say "you were raised right". ;D
Alan
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I totally agree that the newbies (which I am) can and should learn from the long time survivors that Bucko stated. The guy I am currently dating is an LTS, he was diasnosed in 1987. I listen to everything he says. I look up to him as my mentor in doing what is right with the disease.
His frame of mind and his lifestyle is one that I am trying to emulate.
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As one who has a few miles on his odometer, I'd like to take this opportunity to sincerely thank those of you that consider yourself "newbies" who have shown much respect and appreciation for those of us who have lived with this for 10, 15, and 20+ years. Your kindness has not gone unnoticed. In the South, we say "you were raised right".
And I hearty thank you to the 'wiser' of the tribe who put up with our questions and listen to us whine.
Alan - you have a special place in my heart for being there from the beginning for me. Your Jack O' Latern is reminding me I need to get me a pumpking to carve.
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reminding me I need to get me a pumpking to carve.
you plan on cutting some great top? :D
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Bwahaha, Freudian slip by Pete
I can't even deal with 'old skoolers versus noobs' when i'm feeling this way
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If I could find a great top maybe I wouldnt be depressed :)
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If I could find a great top or bottom maybe I wouldnt be depressed :-*