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Off Topic Forums => Off Topic Forum => Topic started by: Miss Philicia on April 27, 2007, 01:27:32 pm

Title: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Miss Philicia on April 27, 2007, 01:27:32 pm
Color me not shocked.

Quote
The political website of the New York Sun will report tomorrow that in a major reversal from an earlier position, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani now opposes civil unions between same sex partners.

The New York Republican has backed off his earlier support for civil unions, prompted by the passage of a law in New Hampshire's State Senate.

"In this specific case the law states same sex civil unions are the equivalent of marriage and recognizes same sex unions from outside states. This goes too far and Mayor Giuliani does not support it," the Giuliani campaign said in a written response sent to the Sun's Ryan Sager.

The Sun notes that Giuliani had said in 2004 on Fox News, "I'm in favor of...civil unions."

Sager suggests that Giuliani is staking out the position in order to secure himself among charges that he's too liberal to win the Republican vote.

"Yesterday's statement is likely to lead many observers to question whether the former mayor is concerned that his socially liberal record and positions aren't flying in the Republican primary," he writes in a post tomorrow on the New York Sun's Politics website. "While he still holds a commanding lead in the national polls, he has taken a hit over the last month or so after reiterating his support for the public funding of abortion."

An additional excerpt from Sager's article is presented below. You can read the full article at the New York Sun Politics website.

http://www.nysunpolitics.com/article/30
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: izprince1984 on April 27, 2007, 02:00:53 pm
Personally, I don't get why anyone would want to be married anyway, most of the time it doesn't work out.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Dachshund on April 27, 2007, 02:07:05 pm
Personally, I don't get why anyone would want to be married anyway, most of the time it doesn't work out.


Something tells me you won't have to worry about it.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: izprince1984 on April 27, 2007, 02:30:31 pm

Something tells me you won't have to worry about it.

No, because I never would be stupid enough to get married in any event.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: thunter34 on April 27, 2007, 02:32:28 pm
You can hear the hearts breaking from here.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: izprince1984 on April 27, 2007, 02:38:22 pm
I really don't think Giuliani has a snowball's chance in hell, especially not running on the Republican ticket.

You would think that after 8 years under the boot of King George II that people would have had enough of the scandals and pointless war, and the exploitation of the poor.

Anyway, I will be voting for Barack Obama, I think he'll make it, the worst thing the Democrats could do right now is go with Hillary Clinton.

As far as immigration goes, I don't think any of them have an acceptable policy, that wall on the Mexican border should span the whole length, and there should be soldiers at checkpoints along the way with orders to shoot on sight.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: puertorico2006 on April 27, 2007, 02:43:32 pm

As far as immigration goes, I don't think any of them have an acceptable policy, that wall on the Mexican border should span the whole length, and there should be soldiers at checkpoints along the way with orders to shoot on sight.

figures that would be your stance on it....doesnt suprise me...
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: izprince1984 on April 27, 2007, 02:50:10 pm
figures that would be your stance on it....doesnt suprise me...

What? That they're bleeding the country dry and the government won't stop them?

The only reason the politicians want them here is so they can scrub toilets and flip burgers for sub-minimum wages.

I guess all the more reason for me to be going to college this fall, pretty soon (in a couple years that is), I'll be making $25 an hour, and they can bag all my groceries they want, I'll even be sure to drop a toilet bomb at Mcdonalds for them.

That reminds me of a joke......"How do you get 25 people to run out the fire door at a Mcdonalds in Dayton?" "Shout 'INS!!!'"
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: puertorico2006 on April 27, 2007, 02:53:51 pm
Well if they dont do it who will???? Americans for the most part have to much pride to do those kind of jobs....but they must be done.....

People complain that they take all the work but then they get offered a job and they say "nahhh i dont want to do that".....so many (not all) are productive members to society....

for the most part mexicans and illegal immigrants are not getting the kind of jobs that most americans are trying to get.....once they become legal then its another story (if they have an education) because being educated and bilingual will get you picked quickly..
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: izprince1984 on April 27, 2007, 02:56:07 pm
Well if they dont do it who will???? Americans for the most part have to much pride to do those kind of jobs....but they must be done.....

People complain that they take all the work but then they get offered a job and they say "nahhh i dont want to do that".....so many (not all) are productive members to society....

for the most part mexicans and illegal immigrants are not getting the kind of jobs that most americans are trying to get.....once they become legal then its another story (if they have an education) because being educated and bilingual will get you picked quickly..

Hell, you have to find a job if you're on most forms of government assistance, or prove you're in some kind of training.

So you're telling me that an American would rather starve to death and live in a cardboard box than bag groceries?

Yeah, and I've had a few run ins here and there where they expected me to speak Spanish, I understand them, but I don't pay attention until they speak to me in English.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: izprince1984 on April 27, 2007, 02:59:47 pm
While I'm on the subject, what is your opinion on the Mexican Army crossing the US border (an act of war), to escort social undesirables and drug runners into Texas?

Anyway, almost all the Mexicans that come into Wal-Mart have like 10 kids and won't speak to you in English and buy #500 worth of junk food on their EBT card (which they're legally not entitled to).

I mean I used to just shrug when I saw a group of them, but such blatant disregard for the law, which is not even being enforced I might add, disgusts me.

We need to be more like Canada, they're ethnically diverse, but everyone works.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: puertorico2006 on April 27, 2007, 03:02:07 pm
Many of the people where I live rather starve than bag groceries....myself included hence the reason im unemployed.....but i would settle for an office job which will be a lot easier once summer rolls around and i have a better schedule....my class hours suck this semester spread out through the whole day


but besides the fact there are PLENTY of jobs out there even though there are immigrants that do take some of the citizens jobs ...they are less attractive than grocery bagging jobs.....dont worry once the democrats come into office there will be plenty more jobs available...and i know your going to say "jobs that are a waste of money"  ;D
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: puertorico2006 on April 27, 2007, 03:03:14 pm
While I'm on the subject, what is your opinion on the Mexican Army crossing the US border (an act of war), to escort social undesirables and drug runners into Texas?

I say bring the blow ;D
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: izprince1984 on April 27, 2007, 03:05:58 pm
Many of the people where I live rather starve than bag groceries....myself included hence the reason im unemployed.....but i would settle for an office job which will be a lot easier once summer rolls around and i have a better schedule....my class hours suck this semester spread out through the whole day


but besides the fact there are PLENTY of jobs out there even though there are immigrants that do take some of the citizens jobs ...they are less attractive than grocery bagging jobs.....dont worry once the democrats come into office there will be plenty more jobs available...and i know your going to say "jobs that are a waste of money"  ;D

Well, this "free trade" has stripped too much of our infrastructure, it could be repaired, but it would take decades, and the voters all want instant gratification, I'd say the Dems might win this round, but when they fail to make it all magically better in 4 years time, people will have already forgotten about the reign of King George and the Republicans will be back again.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: izprince1984 on April 27, 2007, 03:06:53 pm
I say bring the blow ;D

What about the Haitians and the Cubans trying to sneak in all their criminals, crazies, and terminal AIDS patients?
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: puertorico2006 on April 27, 2007, 03:15:11 pm
If they can get here then let them stay....It shows that they rather die trying to go somewhere else than live where they are at....in my opinion that takes strength, courage and character....

There are many nutjob cubans but more nutjob americans....Cubans are hard workers and can bring a lot of good to society...of course you have your bad "apples" but thats the case in many situations....If they can get here then they should be able to stay....In their country they cannot get ahead or prosper because they have to deal with what their goverment decides to give them...Why not give someone a chance to live there own life and make what they want of it?? its not their fault they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time....

Here in Puerto Rico there is a high influx of dominicans and cubans and people say bad shit about them also....people dont like anyone that is not of their own heritage and ideas....its sad really

-josh
(who is in the mood for a mojito right now)
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: izprince1984 on April 27, 2007, 03:19:18 pm
If they can get here then let them stay....It shows that they rather die trying to go somewhere else than live where they are at....in my opinion that takes strength, courage and character....

There are many nutjob cubans but more nutjob americans....Cubans are hard workers and can bring a lot of good to society...of course you have your bad "apples" but thats the case in many situations....If they can get here then they should be able to stay....In their country they cannot get ahead or prosper because they have to deal with what their goverment decides to give them...Why not give someone a chance to live there own life and make what they want of it?? its not their fault they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time....

Here in Puerto Rico there is a high influx of dominicans and cubans and people say bad shit about them also....people dont like anyone that is not of their own heritage and ideas....its sad really

-josh
(who is in the mood for a mojito right now)

http://www.illwillpress.com/mex.html (http://www.illwillpress.com/mex.html)
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: puertorico2006 on April 27, 2007, 03:21:16 pm
So are you racist or what?...since you seem to have a distaste for latin people....

Oh yea you hate everyone including the US...
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Miss Philicia on April 27, 2007, 03:21:58 pm
So are you racist or what?...since you seem to have a distaste for latin people....

Oh yea you hate everyone including the US...

Don't worry honey.  We know you're half white.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: puertorico2006 on April 27, 2007, 03:28:14 pm
I consider myself more american in viewpoints considering i was raised in florida....

Although technically speaking Puerto Ricans are Americans also, but dont tell them that they get pissed....

It just amazes me how this prince guy hates everyone alive....he reminds me a lot of some guy i read about in history books i think his name was hitler or something like that ::).... :-*
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: izprince1984 on April 27, 2007, 03:31:52 pm
There's a woman at the nursing home I'm doing my clinicals at, she was brought to the US when she was 4 years old, they recently discovered that her adoption papers were forged and that she is therefore in the country illegally, so they're giving her a hard time and they want to deport her but they don't even know where she is from, could be Mexico, could be Guatamala, she doesn't even speak Spanish, now they've given her a work permit and a temporary green card til they get the mess sorted and figure out what they're going to do.

Now my question is,  why do so many people come here illegally from Mexico, refuse to learn English, live off the system, don't pay taxes, etcetera, and the government does nothing about them, but when there's a woman who's lived here practically her whole life, speaks English, and has a damn strong work ethic, they're trying to deport her?
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Miss Philicia on April 27, 2007, 03:37:14 pm
Why doesn't the US have a guest worker program like most other industrial countries?
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: puertorico2006 on April 27, 2007, 03:39:03 pm
The goverment does do something about it if the illegal imigrants are caught....There are rules you know....

but catching people is hard to do considering the US has always been a culturally diverse country....its not like other countries where everyone is blonde hair and blue eyed and then you have very few latinos.....

I doubt many Mexicans that arent paying taxes are living off the system...how much goverment help do they get if they arent supposed to be here??? As far as taxes go not all but many imigrants do file taxes because the IRS tries to give people the opportunity to pay taxes without reporting them to the INS....If the immigrants have a history of papying taxes when they do go to file to be legally admitted they have a better chance of getting in because they have "contributed to society".....but tax evasion is just as prevalent among imigrants as americans....do you think i claimed all the tips i made waiting tables? NOPE....im just as guilty....so its not only imigrants that try to beat the system its the whole "under-the-table/underground economy"
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Dachshund on April 27, 2007, 03:48:54 pm
By responding you are playing right into his hands and I have my doubts he is who he says he is.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: puertorico2006 on April 27, 2007, 03:51:25 pm
i know....but i cant help it  :(....im super bored today.....and my wellbutrin has me all wired lol

I NEED A JOB

Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Bucko on April 27, 2007, 03:54:06 pm
By responding you are playing right into his hands and I have my doubts he is who he says he is.

AD gets the golden quote for voicing what I'd been thinking.

Brent
(Who is wary of much these days)
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: milker on April 27, 2007, 03:55:54 pm

I NEED A JOB



I NEED A BLOW JOB
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: puertorico2006 on April 27, 2007, 03:58:42 pm
Come on over im not doing anything...id be glad to assist....

Crap what was the topic of this thread??? LOL i dont even remember  ;D :o
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jack on April 27, 2007, 04:05:56 pm
I love Rudy! Our enemies will fear him, he has said as much. Course they also might fear Hillary, I would never want to cross that woman. She has an evil eye like no other person I have ever seen.
Yeah, I would say if you want to keep everyone in line, vote for either Rudy or Hill. HIll would def kick ass.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Andy Velez on April 27, 2007, 04:33:35 pm
IZ, expressing your many vehement opinions is one thing.

Categorically putting down ethnic groups en masse is not acceptable here. There are many Latinos among members and readers and your comments are crudely insulting to them.

I've warned you before. You're old enough to know better about playing nice with others.

You've earned a one week time out. Come back if you want to in a week with a better sense of how to speak to and about people here.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: thunter34 on April 27, 2007, 04:43:04 pm
 :)
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: mjmel on April 27, 2007, 05:00:28 pm
I love Rudy! Our enemies will fear him, he has said as much. Course they also might fear Hillary, I would never want to cross that woman. She has an evil eye like no other person I have ever seen.
Yeah, I would say if you want to keep everyone in line, vote for either Rudy or Hill. HIll would def kick ass.

So Jake (Jack), you would consider voting for Hillary?
xxx,
Mike
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Matty the Damned on April 27, 2007, 05:02:15 pm
Jakey wants to be Hillary.

MtD
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Miss Philicia on April 27, 2007, 05:04:30 pm
preferably in a Dreamgirls outfit
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Dachshund on April 27, 2007, 05:12:51 pm
I love Rudy our enemies will fear him...

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jack on April 27, 2007, 06:07:31 pm
there are times when I think maybe she is on the up and up and then she starts doing this southern accent thing again to african american audiences. What is this about? The first time she did it, she made a total fool of herself,but I guess she is now saying thats just the way she talks in the south. Well, I have lived in the South for 30 years and I have never heard anyone sound like that. Disgusting.
I dont know that I could vote for her, but I am just saying there are some things she might be good at. Unlike most Dems,who mindlessly attack just to attack out of pure hatred, most conservatives will support a Dem president on many issues,especially those beyond our borders.
I think she is very tough, but she doesnt have very good communication skills, and that is what has killed our current president. When her husband was being attacked by the right during his years in office he had people out everyday 24/7 smearing the prosecutors and supporting him. I guess she will have that whole pr machine at her disposal but she isnt a very good public speaker. She's better than Bush, but thats not saying much is it.
I also think if she gets in we could spend another 8 years like the past 8. She has much dirt in her big closet. The whole campaign finance irregularities from that time are still out there. 
I say no more Bushes and no more Clintons. Give us someone new. I like Rudy. I like Richardson. Everyone else appears full of shit.
After the last two presidents I think almost anyone could be president and not fuck the country up.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Basquo on April 27, 2007, 08:07:38 pm
There are so many things I want to respond to in this thread (including Milker's 'job' search) but I'll sum up, without dissing my lawn-mowing kinfolk, by saying that the govenment is doing something about illegal immigrants, here in Texas, especially the ones they can catch because they're slowed down by their families.  The link below is from December, and conditions have gotten a little better but not much.

http://latinalista.blogspot.com/2006/12/privatized-immigrant-detention.html (http://latinalista.blogspot.com/2006/12/privatized-immigrant-detention.html)
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: milker on April 27, 2007, 08:11:16 pm
Basquo I guess you mean that my job search was a bit "sparse". All I wanted to show is that there are jobs out there, out of 294 there must be one that he could take. Also I restricted to 1 year experience, he seems to be a pretty good linux geek, maybe there is stuff out there for him, or remotely.

Milker.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Basquo on April 27, 2007, 08:30:36 pm
Actually I was referring to your reply in post #26  :-*
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Matty the Damned on April 27, 2007, 08:32:54 pm
Also I restricted to 1 year experience, he seems to be a pretty good linux geek, maybe there is stuff out there for him, or remotely.

Bitch, puh-leeeeeeze! No self-respecting Linux Geek would even consider using Ubuntu.  ::)

Gentoo, maybe. Debian, it's worth a shot. CentOS, now you're getting warm. But Ubuntu? Shudder!

MtD
(Who is Fedora Core all the way)
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: milker on April 27, 2007, 08:52:47 pm
Also I restricted to 1 year experience, he seems to be a pretty good linux geek, maybe there is stuff out there for him, or remotely.

Bitch, puh-leeeeeeze! No self-respecting Linux Geek would even consider using Ubuntu.  ::)

Gentoo, maybe. Debian, it's worth a shot. CentOS, now you're getting warm. But Ubuntu? Shudder!

MtD
(Who is Fedora Core all the way)
lol Ubuntu is the only one that installed on my linux pc without zillions of errors, but no wonder why, it didn't install anything of value LOL

So what was the thread about I lost it.. philly sorry for the quadruple hijack :D

Guiliani.. oh yeah. Oh well i have nothing to say.

Milker.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: DingoBoi on April 27, 2007, 11:02:46 pm
In my job working on an account for a nameless corporate conglomerate with 'golden arches', I can realistically state that they do hire people regularly with made up social security numbers.  I know this because they cannot enroll in their 401k plan without a valid ssn or tax id number and we send out letters to have them 'correct' their 'mistyped' ssn so they can enroll.

All too often the callers can't even verify their own date of birth.  WTF?  You really don't even know when you were born?

Me smell illegal immigrants and a corporation turning a blind eye to the problem.

Sad, but true.



Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: milker on April 28, 2007, 11:03:35 am
Actually I was referring to your reply in post #26  :-*
Oh  ;) :-*
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: northernguy on April 28, 2007, 04:32:46 pm
there are times when I think maybe she is on the up and up and then she starts doing this southern accent thing again to african american audiences. What is this about? The first time she did it, she made a total fool of herself,but I guess she is now saying thats just the way she talks in the south. ...

If it works for Madonna, why not Hillary? ;)
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jimw on April 30, 2007, 09:55:34 am
Personally, I don't get why anyone would want to be married anyway, most of the time it doesn't work out.

It has nothing to do with "marriage" per se, but the rights that go along with it, for example, the right to make health decisions regarding your partner if he is incapacitated, federal tax rights, rights of inheritance, and the list goes on and on.  There was a report done recently that listed the rights a married couple has that those in a gay relationship do not - it was over 500.  I will try to find that. 

Frankly, I agree with you about marriage itself, it is overrated.  My partner and I lasted 18 years, much longer than both of my sisters who have been married twice and looking for their third - and even after swearing before God and 700 of my partent's closest friends that what God has joined let no man put assunder, or some crap like that.  Jim
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jack on April 30, 2007, 10:22:03 am
If those are the reasons you use in entering marriage,your marriage will fail. I know of no man and women who got married because of those reasons. I guess some have, I just dpnt know of any.
You get married to someone cause they make you laugh or make you Happy. You marry someone because you think having them as a partner will make you a better or stronger person. You dont marry someone because of tax benefits(which are almost nil), or benefits, or money, if you do you will be miserable and your marriage will probably fail.
A successfull marriage means changing personal habits, which is a tough adjustment for all of us, a lot of compromising,which usually means doing what your wife wants to do. Personal benefits or tax treatments have nothing to do with it.
If it was just tax benefits wouldnt the gay side except something where they would have a union not called marriage but with all of marriages tax benifits and survivors rights? If it was really just a case of tax benefits and other crap why care what the union is called? The gay side wants their union to be called marriage because they believe they are no different than any one else, and that they are equals to heterosexuals. I think? If all humans are equal,why should their unions be called something different?
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jimw on April 30, 2007, 11:22:26 am
If those are the reasons you use in entering marriage,your marriage will fail. I know of no man and women who got married because of those reasons. I guess some have, I just dpnt know of any.
You get married to someone cause they make you laugh or make you Happy. You marry someone because you think having them as a partner will make you a better or stronger person. You dont marry someone because of tax benefits(which are almost nil), or benefits, or money, if you do you will be miserable and your marriage will probably fail.
A successfull marriage means changing personal habits, which is a tough adjustment for all of us, a lot of compromising,which usually means doing what your wife wants to do. Personal benefits or tax treatments have nothing to do with it.
If it was just tax benefits wouldnt the gay side except something where they would have a union not called marriage but with all of marriages tax benifits and survivors rights? If it was really just a case of tax benefits and other crap why care what the union is called? The gay side wants their union to be called marriage because they believe they are no different than any one else, and that they are equals to heterosexuals. I think? If all humans are equal,why should their unions be called something different?

Giulani’s flip flop has nothing to do with marriage.  The marriage debate is just another way of dividing this country and getting votes – why do you think Giulani switched his position! 

Frankly, you don't need a marriage certificate for someone to make you laugh or happy, or to make a life time commitment to someone – that is done internally between two people and no certificate in the world or nothing the church or government does can change it.

But because of the way the laws are centered around marriage, it does make a difference.  It sure would be nice to know that if your partner/husband was in the hospital and incapacitated and not able to make decisions on his on that you had some rights in the say of his treatment.  Now, unless you have a living will, you have zero rights – zippo – nothing – no say at all.  And from the experiences I have heard of you really have to force the doctors and hospitals to respect and recognize the rights under the living will.

As for taxes, and filing jointly, I would love to be able to leave my future partner everything I/we worked for in our lives without him having to pay inheritance taxes on it.

It is a polarizing issue, but a fight we should not give up on. 
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jimw on April 30, 2007, 11:30:15 am
Jack

I found the site I was looking for.  As I said, it is an issue of equality - here are a few rights which a gay couple, even if they have entered into a civil union (Vermont excluded - as it is the most progressive state giving gay couples virtually the same rights under state law as straight couples - but they can not effect the federal law differences). 
1.   Joint parental rights of children
2.   Joint adoption
3.   Status as "next-of-kin" for hospital visits and medical decisions
4.   Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
5.   Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
6.   Crime victims recovery benefits
7.   Domestic violence protection orders
8.   Judicial protections and immunity
9.   Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
10.   Public safety officers death benefits
11.   Spousal veterans benefits
12.   Social Security
13.   Medicare
14.   Joint filing of tax returns
15.   Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
16.   Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
17.   Child support
18.   Joint Insurance Plans
19.   Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
20.   Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
21.   Estate and gift tax benefits
22.   Welfare and public assistance
23.   Joint housing for elderly
24.   Credit protection
25.   Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans
These are just a few of the 1400 state and federal benefits that gays and lesbians are denied by not being able to marry.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jack on April 30, 2007, 11:36:52 am
Than your argument is with your own side. If the gay "powers that be" put forth a movement for a  union,not called marriage, but with all of marriages financial benefits,I think there is a better than 50% it would fly.

Rudy is the best Republican candidate and unfortunately he has to kneel to the Christian Nazis to keep them on board in the primaries and I think the only republican who has a chance to win. All Dems and Reps do the same thing in the primaries, I hate it too, but it is what it is.
I think after the last two presidents no one want to hear another southern twang for awhile except for the true believers on each side. Give me Rudy and someone from the west as VP. Put Richardson on the Dem ticket with Harold Ford as VP and the Dems win in a route. Everyone else in the race,so far, are just the usual whores.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jack on April 30, 2007, 11:44:32 am
I never said there werent benefits to marriage, I was just saying I dont know anyone who got married for a single reason on that list. The government supports marriage like it does many businesses and interest groups. It is to the benefit of government for more men and women to be married in hopes they will produce more taxpayers.
Follow the money. If you are a politician you want more children because they will be paying for your extravagant spending bills and government retirement package.
My other point is, if all you want is that list of financial benefits, push for the your side to accept unions,not called marriage, but with all the benes.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Dachshund on April 30, 2007, 11:49:20 am
....a perfect second class citizen solution.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jack on April 30, 2007, 11:59:49 am
exactly. that was my point, I think most who are for gay marriage are in the fight as a matter of equality not finances. Finances are definitely part of it, but not what really gets you pissed off enough to shout from the rooftops.
The argument that it would threaten male/female marriage is rather silly, unless you think everyone is homosexual but just chooses hetero for the financial benefits. Its really the dumbest fucking argument I have heard, but I guess its better than the truth, which is the Christian Nazis think homosexuality is an abomination and should not be encouraged,accepted,or part of our society.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: mjmel on April 30, 2007, 01:08:41 pm
Jake wrote: "Rudy is the best Republican candidate and unfortunately he has to kneel to the Christian Nazis to keep them on board in the primaries..."

Honestly, Jake, you just made "ca ca" of your favored candidate. When a man makes an about face on issues he formerly supported because it potentially gets him the Christian backing that he thinks he desperately needs then he stands untrustworthy.
The part that states "he has to kneel to..."  are the words I choked on. Ridiculous.
It's political strategy and he chooses his course of actions/retractions.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jack on April 30, 2007, 01:27:52 pm
Name me one political candidate that hasnt done this in primaries. They all do it to romance their base. Yeah, it sucks, but its reality. Every single person running for president is doing it. Hillary changes her position on the war daily depending on who she is talking to. Her husband did the same thing. I will never forget billy coming to Houston when he was president and saying to a group of Democrats that he had screwed up by raising taxes so much. The next day in front of another group in another state he said he never said such a thing, and later that day he said he did say it but was caused by lack of sleep. Bush does it. Reagan did it. CArter did it. Obama does it.
The fucking media never takes any of them to task for it. Look at the answers to the questions in the last "debate".  A joke, just like all the debates.
I am just saying my personal preference for Reps is Rudy and someone conservative from the west, that is not code for Christian Nazi. If the Reps picked someone like McCain I would vote for Dems only if Richardson was going for President. He is the only Democrat who appears not to be a frothing at the mouth socialist,but like I said most of them are putting on this act for the democrat base and like Clinton probably wont do much in that direction once elected.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Dachshund on April 30, 2007, 01:34:59 pm
Bereft of all logic...as you usually are...I must remind you that the religious right views you just like they do us. Support right-wing Christian appeaser candidates all you like, but when they come for us they will come for you...no matter how loud you scream, "but I'm straight and married!"
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jimw on April 30, 2007, 01:41:15 pm
The argument that it would threaten male/female marriage is rather silly, unless you think everyone is homosexual but just chooses hetero for the financial benefits.

I sure have had sex with a lot of married men!  The gay bookstores and baths here in NYC are full of them.  Not to mention the sauna's at the gym.  

But for 9/11 Rudy would have gone down as one of the worst mayors in NY - he used strong arm tactics, gave the police free reign to do what ever they wanted (remember Abner Loumi (sp?).

As far as second class citizens, yes, we are treated and considered second class citizens - and marriage one of the ways that we are kept in a different, second, class.  The same arguments about allowing gays the right to marry are being made by the same people who want to prevent women the right to have an abortion.  

Frankly, with HIV added to the list I sometimes feel like a third class citizen - but thats another thread!
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jack on April 30, 2007, 01:57:34 pm
I used to hear that line about it threatening male/female marriage and think, well that sounds good, but once you spend one minute to think about it, the basis for that argument would have to be that all men are really homosexuals and only choose hetero because of the financial benefits or so they can be involved in the institution of marriage. Its absurd! But if gay marriage was law, it would mean homosexuality is an accepted way of life, and the Christian Nazis will go the grave on that one. Sad but true.
These are the same Nazis who wont let me gamble with my own money on my computer and force me to do illegal acts with many of close italian mafioso type friends.
dAchsund, I really dont think anyone is coming to get anyone, except for the IRS. Always keep a few thous on hand to grease those bastards at the local tit bar.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Dachshund on April 30, 2007, 02:11:08 pm
You underestimate the religious right at your own peril...like radical Islam their theocracy would not include you...why do you think your buddies kneel at the altar of Dobson, Falwell, Robertson and until he got caught with his hands in a hustler's pants Ted Haggard? Why do you think Robertson's law school provides the lawyers for this regime? Your candidates kneel before these fascists because they know that fascists control the Republican party and it doesn't bother them one bit.

p.s here's a nice example:


http://americablog.blogspot.com/2007/04/religious-right-uses-victims-of-va-tech.html
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jack on April 30, 2007, 02:52:19 pm
i know this will piss you off, but here goes, I dont think that article is brilliant, of course I dont think there should be hate crimes. When are we gonna stop trying to figure out why someone committed a crime and just use the laws on the books. Oh I know why, cause some crimes are ok if we feel sorry for the criminal or if he his parents abused him,but if hate is involved then he should be guilty of some far greater crime? WTF???  If someone murders a gay person or a non gay person, who cares, prosecute the fucker under the laws we have. Who is the judge of whether hate is involved?
This is just another assault on the first amendment like John McCains idiot finance bill that trashed freedom of speech for all but the very wealthy and very connected.
You do not have to convince me of the insaneness of the Christian Nazis, just like you dont have convince me of moron Warmer Nazis. They both want control. I fear the WArmers now more than I have ever feared the Christian Nazis. And what about the Atheist Nazis?
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Dachshund on April 30, 2007, 03:05:53 pm
Of course you miss the point of the article completely and why I am not surprised. Atheistic Nazis...that has got to be one of the funniest things I have ever heard of in all my life...fascism one-oh-one...you must at least pretend to believe in god so pudding heads will believe you and follow blindly. Fascists come riding into town with a sword in one hand and a bible in the other.

Nazi atheists...you're a riot!
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Matty the Damned on April 30, 2007, 04:11:04 pm
Oh Jakey,

I hate to be the one to do this to you but:

(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j232/matty_the_damned/393458172_f1ac9f3f35_o.jpg)

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

The effect of Godwin's Law (or the 4th Law of Teh Intahwebs) is simple yet profound. You lose the debate. No matter what your arguments might be or how eloquently you put them, you lose.

Sorry babe, but Teh Law is Teh Law.

MtD
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: jack on April 30, 2007, 05:33:26 pm
Matty, I have no idea what you are talking about. I use the term Nazi to describe many people. My kids soccer coaches were soccer nazis. I went to a very religious college,where I often referred to those in charge as Nazis,and of course they threw me out of that college till my father bribed the Dean to get me back in.
If you read the great "road to serfdom" by Hayek, he makes the case that socialism always leads to something akin to the Nazis. After so much is promised by politicos to  buy votes and it is never delivered(germany pre ww2) only a Nazi type of government can quell the masses or something like that.
I always prefer the way Johny Weismuller used to pronounce it as Tarzan, Nazzzzi.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Miss Philicia on April 30, 2007, 07:38:15 pm
n00b
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: milker on April 30, 2007, 07:43:22 pm
Sigh Jack.. after 1047 posts and certainly many others on other sites you have never heard of the Godwin law?

Here is a little help for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
There is also this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll that could be of interest for you.

 :-*

Milker.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: Matty the Damned on May 01, 2007, 01:44:56 am
Matty, I have no idea what you are talking about. I use the term Nazi to describe many people. My kids soccer coaches were soccer nazis. I went to a very religious college,where I often referred to those in charge as Nazis,and of course they threw me out of that college till my father bribed the Dean to get me back in.
If you read the great "road to serfdom" by Hayek, he makes the case that socialism always leads to something akin to the Nazis. After so much is promised by politicos to  buy votes and it is never delivered(germany pre ww2) only a Nazi type of government can quell the masses or something like that.
I always prefer the way Johny Weismuller used to pronounce it as Tarzan, Nazzzzi.


Doesn't matter Jakey, ignorance of Teh Law is no defence. You Godwinned and thus lost the debate. There can be no more useful dialogue in this thread. Not that there ever was.

MtD
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: mjmel on May 01, 2007, 03:29:15 pm
Name me one political candidate that hasn't done this in primaries. They all do it to romance their base. Yeah, it sucks, but its reality. Every single person running for president is doing it. Hillary changes her position on the war daily depending on who she is talking to. Her husband did the same thing. I will never forget billy coming to Houston when he was president and saying to a group of Democrats that he had screwed up by raising taxes so much. The next day in front of another group in another state he said he never said such a thing, and later that day he said he did say it but was caused by lack of sleep. Bush does it. Reagan did it. Carter did it. Obama does it.
The fucking media never takes any of them to task for it. Look at the answers to the questions in the last "debate".  A joke, just like all the debates.
I am just saying my personal preference for Reps is Rudy and someone conservative from the west, that is not code for Christian Nazi. If the Reps picked someone like McCain I would vote for Dems only if Richardson was going for President. He is the only Democrat who appears not to be a frothing at the mouth socialist,but like I said most of them are putting on this act for the democrat base and like Clinton probably wont do much in that direction once elected.



Jake, I agree with you 99% on above quoted post. Still, " NO"on Rudy.  Just think you deserve credit when it's due you.
xxx,
Mike

AS AN ASIDE TO ALL READERS: By highlighting the quoted material and pressing the Font Size button 3 times one gets easy-to-read quoted  text.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: ConnorMacleod on May 02, 2007, 01:25:58 am
I sure have had sex with a lot of married men!  The gay bookstores and baths here in NYC are full of them.  Not to mention the sauna\'s at the gym. 

But for 9/11 Rudy would have gone down as one of the worst mayors in NY - he used strong arm tactics, gave the police free reign to do what ever they wanted (remember Abner Loumi (sp?).

As far as second class citizens, yes, we are treated and considered second class citizens - and marriage one of the ways that we are kept in a different, second, class.  The same arguments about allowing gays the right to marry are being made by the same people who want to prevent women the right to have an abortion. 

Frankly, with HIV added to the list I sometimes feel like a third class citizen - but thats another thread!

First of all, abortion is a form of murder.

Second, you act like you were being marched off to the gas chambers or something, you still have every right that a heterosexual person does, why is marriage such an issue?

Most marriages between straight people fall apart, so what makes you think that with gay men (and yes I am one) it would be any different? I haven\'t met a gay man that could keep it in his pants for 5 seconds.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: libvet on May 02, 2007, 08:35:21 pm
i know this will piss you off, but here goes, I dont think that article is brilliant, of course I dont think there should be hate crimes. When are we gonna stop trying to figure out why someone committed a crime and just use the laws on the books. Oh I know why, cause some crimes are ok if we feel sorry for the criminal or if he his parents abused him,but if hate is involved then he should be guilty of some far greater crime? WTF???  If someone murders a gay person or a non gay person, who cares, prosecute the fucker under the laws we have. Who is the judge of whether hate is involved?
This is just another assault on the first amendment like John McCains idiot finance bill that trashed freedom of speech for all but the very wealthy and very connected.
You do not have to convince me of the insaneness of the Christian Nazis, just like you dont have convince me of moron Warmer Nazis. They both want control. I fear the WArmers now more than I have ever feared the Christian Nazis. And what about the Atheist Nazis?

This talking point is a red herring.  Let's be honest, people are against hate crime laws because they really see them as somehow "exalting" people of races, gender, sexual orientations, religions and cultures that are routinely looked down upon by society and targeted by some as objects for violence.

But leaving motive for being against hate crime laws aside for a moment, let's talk about....MOTIVE.

Motive is really what hate crimes laws are about.  It's a distinction made on the reasons an act was committed.  Leaving aside hate crime laws, the statutes are already crammed to the rafters with laws and rules concerning MOTIVE.  And punishment is handed down based on MOTIVE of the crime committed.

For example:

1) A person walks in on his wife in bed with some other guy, goes off the deep end goes into the garage, gets his gun and kills both of them.
2) A person takes out an insurance policy on his wife and one night a few months later, takes her out somewhere and kills her.

Is there a difference in these two crimes?  In both cases a person intentionally kills another.   In both cases, we have a murder.

Why should a person get a heavier sentence for a premeditated act of murder than a person who snapped in a moment of emotional distress?  Motive.

Hate crime laws are not about anything that doesn't already exist in the laws of most first world countries.  We already deal with aggravating factors in the body of law.  Why should hate crimes NOT be an aggravating factor?

And one has to ask oneself, is there really a difference between toilet papering someone's house as an ill thought out prank and painting a swastika on a synagogue door?

On the surface, they are really both acts of vandalism. 

But are they really the same crime?  I don't think they are.  One is a crime that at best is meant to annoy someone or inconvenience them at worst, while the other is clearly an act that is meant terrorize an entire community.

Should the punishment be the same?  I don't think so. 

If we just treat all crimes as equal based on the deed itself and not consider any aggravating or mitigating factors, then we are setting ourselves up for a serious miscarriage of justice.



Should the punishment be the same?
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: JacobKell on May 02, 2007, 08:52:43 pm
This talking point is a red herring.  Let's be honest, people are against hate crime laws because they really see them as somehow "exalting" people of races, gender, sexual orientations, religions and cultures that are routinely looked down upon by society and targeted by some as objects for violence.

But leaving motive for being against hate crime laws aside for a moment, let's talk about....MOTIVE.

Motive is really what hate crimes laws are about.  It's a distinction made on the reasons an act was committed.  Leaving aside hate crime laws, the statutes are already crammed to the rafters with laws and rules concerning MOTIVE.  And punishment is handed down based on MOTIVE of the crime committed.

For example:

1) A person walks in on his wife in bed with some other guy, goes off the deep end goes into the garage, gets his gun and kills both of them.
2) A person takes out an insurance policy on his wife and one night a few months later, takes her out somewhere and kills her.

Is there a difference in these two crimes?  In both cases a person intentionally kills another.   In both cases, we have a murder.

Why should a person get a heavier sentence for a premeditated act of murder than a person who snapped in a moment of emotional distress?  Motive.

Hate crime laws are not about anything that doesn't already exist in the laws of most first world countries.  We already deal with aggravating factors in the body of law.  Why should hate crimes NOT be an aggravating factor?

And one has to ask oneself, is there really a difference between toilet papering someone's house as an ill thought out prank and painting a swastika on a synagogue door?

On the surface, they are really both acts of vandalism. 

But are they really the same crime?  I don't think they are.  One is a crime that at best is meant to annoy someone or inconvenience them at worst, while the other is clearly an act that is meant terrorize an entire community.

Should the punishment be the same?  I don't think so. 

If we just treat all crimes as equal based on the deed itself and not consider any aggravating or mitigating factors, then we are setting ourselves up for a serious miscarriage of justice.



Should the punishment be the same?

First of all, I invoke Godwin's Law.

Second of all, hate crimes, which usually include murder, various acts of violence, and/or vandalism are already illegal.

If someone murdered you because you were gay, they would be tried for the crime of murder, what more do you want the legal system to do? Give the guy two death sentences/two lifetime inprisonments because you were gay?

How does being gay make you a special victim? What if instead of killing you, he went to rob a bank and shot a teller? Did the teller do something to make him/her less of a victim?

I'm interested in your input on this.
Title: Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
Post by: libvet on May 02, 2007, 09:37:42 pm
First of all, I invoke Godwin's Law.

Second of all, hate crimes, which usually include murder, various acts of violence, and/or vandalism are already illegal.

If someone murdered you because you were gay, they would be tried for the crime of murder, what more do you want the legal system to do? Give the guy two death sentences/two lifetime inprisonments because you were gay?

How does being gay make you a special victim? What if instead of killing you, he went to rob a bank and shot a teller? Did the teller do something to make him/her less of a victim?

I'm interested in your input on this.

Invoke to your heart's content.  Vandalizing and terrorizing Jewish people with such symbolism in that manner is not at all unheard of.

What about first, second, and third degree murder or manslaughter?

Someone died, someone killed. 

Does intent or motive matter?  Apparently our body of law has decided for many decades that punishment and conviction of a particular crime IS dependent on a number of factors regardless of the act itself being superficially the same.

Should there be a distinction?  You can agree or disagree with that based on your own opinion, but I don't really think a landlord who didn't take care of a fire hazard and the end result was a person dying is the same thing as someone actively seeking to kill someone.  Nor do I think a man who kills his wife for insurance money is the same thing as a man who kills his wife who is suffering from terminal cancer to spare her any more pain are the exact same crime.   

Motive and intent DOES matter.  It has always mattered.   Should a guy who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family suffer the same fate as a person who steals a television set or a car for personal pleasure?

Hate crimes are not really about the victim as much as they are about the motive and intent of a criminal.  And there seems to be a common misunderstanding about hate crime laws to begin with that somehow any criminal act against someone gay or black or Jewish is a hate crime, which is ludicrous on the surface because hate crime laws are pretty neutral....they don't say black, they say "race", they don't say "homosexual", they say "sexual orientation", they don't say "Jewish",  they say "religion". That would make every single criminal action a hate crime considering EVERYONE has a sexual orientation if the only qualification of charging someone with a hate crime was that a victim had to belong to a race, gender, culture, religion, or sexual orientation.

Can you honestly tell me that there is no inherent difference between a straight guy and gay guy getting into an argument over something silly such as the gay guy bumped into him and the guy hauled off and punched him and a guy hanging out near a gay bar waiting for a gay man to come out of the bar so he can beat the living shit out of him for being gay?

They are both assault on the surface.  Are there any real differences in the crime other than that?   I think there are.   I think that if a group of straight guys hang out near a gay bar waiting to beat the shit out of someone for being gay or being perceived as gay or a bunch of gay guys waiting outside Hooters to beat up some straight guy for being straight have displayed aggravating factors that should be considered in the adjudication and punishment of the crime.