I've been bad

[Matty the Damned]

I just wanted to be post #200.

MtD

[JPinLA]

Damn it all...my timing has been off for about a decade. 

[milker]

I just wanted to be post #200.

MtD

Well done LOL

If this topic hit 200 in 24 hours, to me it means that this is a serious situation that many gay people have encountered, and i'm in a mixed mood as why this topic did not get hit before, because it's obviously a hot topic given the amount of posts. Maybe I should start a thread asking about the "hidden part of being poz".  Thinking about it I can't believe that in 2007 this topic has had to be hidden.

Sorry for my bad english. I just realize that there is something wrong because many of us are not disclosing our behaviors and I'm not sure I understand why.

Milker.

[allopathicholistic]

I really hope that contributors and anonymous readers got some insight on how to deal with this. I do not think that everyone will agree with sdcabin's posts, but this is the way i'm going to try to deal with it, because those were the posts that I related to the most. I'm sure that other readers have a different view, and i'd like to hear from them, as long as you remember the setting. I'm not going to give up on backroom sex. If this is not your thing, then it's not a post for you.

Milker.

MILKER ~ Yes I got tons of insight from this thread, and it's because you opened up to this forum and you keep it real. Thank you

I'd love to see what types of reactions/answers (and especially facial expressions) one would get if you asked guys "Are you poz?" first

I can just imagine:

Milker: "Are you poz?"
Anon: "Yeah"
Milker: "Me too" 

----------

Milker: "Are you poz?"
Anon: "No"
Milker: "Well I'm poz and ______"

----------

Milker: "Are you poz?"
Anon: "Why do you ask? Are you?"
Milker: "Yes, I'm poz, that's why I asked you"
Anon: "I'm poz too" 

----------

Milker: "Are you poz?"
Anon: "I don't know. Why do you ask?"
Milker: "Cuz I'm poz and you need to know that"

----------

Milker: "Are you poz?"
Anon:  silence
Milker: "Hello. I asked if you're poz" (The premise here being that Anon has no way of knowing that maybe, just maybe Milker is neg)

[Matty the Damned]

If this topic hit 200 in 24 hours, to me it means that this is a serious situation that many gay people have encountered, and i'm in a mixed mood as why this topic did not get hit before, because it's obviously a hot topic given the amount of posts. Maybe I should start a thread asking about the "hidden part of being poz".  Thinking about it I can't believe that in 2007 this topic has had to be hidden.

No, we've discussed it before. I suspect one of the reasons it attracted so many posts was the neat little flamewar that broke out somewhere in the middle and the resultant temporary shit-canning of Al.

MtD

[jkinatl2]

MIlker, it really has been discussed before. And I think it should be an ongoing discussion. Negotiating sex given the minefield of HIV is a conversation that needs to be had, over and over and over again.

In three months, someone else will instigate this same conversation, I assure you. And s/he will bemoan the fact that no one has talked about it here .

I might not agree with the assessments and advice. I might be appalled at the stuff revealed. But I will vigorously defend a safe place to have the conversation. For the generation coming up, who might not have known AIDS as a deadly illness, who actually considers HIV a non-issue, these conversations will become more important, not less.

[GoodMatchHawaiiRetreat]

MIlker,  praise on your courage to post.  Would like to discuss this more in PM but new here and can't figure out how to PM you (your email address lists as hidden).   Long term survior here...  22 years.  No OI's.  Undetectable. Decent Tcells. 
    Some comments:
1) HIV is almost never transmitted by oral sex.  Disclosure for oral isn't necessary.  (only exception is if there iis risk of blood to blood direct contact, i.e. open cut on the penis or in the mouth).
2) BB sex is much more exciting when both partners know they are HIV+
3) When a guy asks me to fuck him BB I make disclosure part of erotic verbal, "So, you want my hard POZ cock deep in your hungry ass?"   Response is either "Yeah, fuck me raw" or they decide not to get fucked.
4) Transmission to a top from HIV+ bottom is possible, but rare.  I find that many neg guys choose to BB fuck poz guys after disclosure. 
5) Neg guys have equal (or greater) responsibility to check HIV status if it is a concern to them.
6) Due to the incubation period where someone can test negative (or doesn't get tested) many guys can be poz without knowing it.  Everyone needs to learn as much as they can and make educated decisions for themselves about sexual activity.
7) Most men know about HIV.  Especially at a bathhouse or sex club.

PS:   is your phone number here somewhere <big smile>

[sweetasmeli]

MIlker, it really has been discussed before. And I think it should be an ongoing discussion. Negotiating sex given the minefield of HIV is a conversation that needs to be had, over and over and over again.

In three months, someone else will instigate this same conversation, I assure you. And s/he will bemoan the fact that no one has talked about it here .

I might not agree with the assessments and advice. I might be appalled at the stuff revealed. But I will vigorously defend a safe place to have the conversation. For the generation coming up, who might not have known AIDS as a deadly illness, who actually considers HIV a non-issue, these conversations will become more important, not less.

I totally agree with everything in the above statement.

However milker, I wouldnt even know where to start commenting on your dilemma and wouldn't presume to, as a) I'm not a gay man and b) I don't even know what a back house is, although I could hazard a guess!

I just wanted to say I agree wholeheartedly that sex and 'negotiating the minefield of hiv' (by the way, couldn't think of a more accurate analogy) MUST continue to be discussed. I used to believe it was a simple black and white issue when it came down to sex when hiv+, as in, just use a condom. But I dunno nowadays...there are so many different scenarios and isses to be addressed.

Can't explain the whats or whys exactly just at the moment...just wanted to acknowledge that I understand such matters are and should be open for discussion and debate.

I salute you for bringing this subject to the forefront again, milker. And I hope you find the answers you're seeking.

Melia

[dtwpuck]

I know but i don't think i'm the only one. I'm honest here.

All bragadoccio and ethical grandstanding to the contrary... you are correct on this regard.

[dtwpuck]

Ok, here is my take.  And, realize that I love bareback sex, it is all I participate in, and I am upfront about it.  I also enjoy sex clubs, bathhouse and online hook ups.  I am sorry if this offends the the "high holly, perfect, judegemental, almighty purtians" on this forum but hey it is the TRUTH.  

If a dude takes your dick up his ass raw, most likely he is poz or does not care.  Anytime I have had that happen I tell the dude that I am poz and I will cum in him, each time the answer has been, "cool", "ok", "go for it", "so am I".  So that conversation is non issue.  Try it ..... plus it is a turn on to me to know a dude will take my cum in his ass ..... you are upfront, you communicated and they accepted the risk.  Personally I do not ask if they are poz or neg but I make them aware that by doing this, I could poz them.

If you are on the floor sucking cock, and you have no open sores in your mouth, the risk to them is so little that frankly, I do not disclose.  You are suckin their dick, incredibly, HIGHLY unlikely that you will do them anyharm, so seriously .... have fun.  Again I know the puritans on this sight may bash me for this but has there EVER been a case of a poz dude sucking a neg dude and making him poz?  Show me proof!  Again, have fun, enjoy it.

Now, if a top sticks his raw cock up you, I just say, "I am poz and you can cum in me if you want" .... this works they either pull out and fill me up.  The ones that pull out usually sorry, I cannot take that risk and I say, "I understand, no worries, be careful and have fun"  Again, not always fun to say "I am poz" but you need to tell them of the risk the are taking.

It will get easier .... believe me.  

At last, some real life advice...
let's face it folks, there are a lot of poz guys who are sex addicts ... a dubiously constructed category at times anyway, too often bandied about by people not getting any.  How to deal responsibly and comfortably with yourself and the situation is a hard transition.   Milker's experience isn't new or unique. 

[megasept]

But this is only one guy and there was this "silence" about hiv status.

My main question was "how the fuck do you disclose your status when you have 20 men around you with their dick poking your mouth" ?

Milker.

Answer: You Don't disclose jackshit, of course. It's an orgy. Whether you should be there is a different matter. There are risks for everyone there, you included.

Do you believe you will pass your hiv to these gentlemen by sucking their cocks? I don't. If you knew you were just treated for gonorrhea, then you have violated a number of holy writs, and better pray for forgiveness for carelessly spreading an STD.

ETHICS 102; Instructor Andrew Sullivan, M,W,F: If there were a small intimate Craig's List style get-together of "straight-acting All-American boys, 23-37, with washboard abs" who all said they "were disease free" to be there, you may not attend (even if you're a lovely Abercrombie bimbo), and should be struck down by lightening if you lie. Sure, they would be full of shit and at risk for their lousy hiv "screening" nonsense, but it does not give anyone the right to lie their way into the little shindig. Oh, and being high is not an excuse, for that kind of moral failing.

My thoughts on what to do IF YOU SIN BIG TIME; before "forgiving" oneself (very popular) require some a process of introspection followed by imposition of some rules of behavior. Whatever allowed you to knowingly do something you consider "wrong" must be faced. If sobriety is an issue you either fix it or admit to yourself that you are entirely insincere about the whole matter. Do all of that, then you can pray for redemption, because you probably deserve a few more chances.

Milker: Seriously, thanks for posting this. These kinds of explicit discussions need to take place among sexually active gay men. I've recently had a few conversations with young men, relatively new to sex, two face-to-face, and one on line. All three thought the sexual risk discussions were helpful, and all decided to modify this or that aspect of their approach. If might be one of the assets of being older, assumed wisdom. We discuss the sexual nitty-gritty, and I help them get over the avoid-the-hiv-lepers-at-all-cost-approach-to-longevity trap. I always urge them to check out the info here. 

   -megasept (your group sex ethics expert)

[milker]

edit: never mind

[livingpositively]

Ok, here is my take.  And, realize that I love bareback sex, it is all I participate in, and I am upfront about it.  I also enjoy sex clubs, bathhouse and online hook ups.  I am sorry if this offends the the "high holly, perfect, judegemental, almighty purtians" on this forum but hey it is the TRUTH.  

If a dude takes your dick up his ass raw, most likely he is poz or does not care.  Anytime I have had that happen I tell the dude that I am poz and I will cum in him, each time the answer has been, "cool", "ok", "go for it", "so am I".  So that conversation is non issue.  Try it ..... plus it is a turn on to me to know a dude will take my cum in his ass ..... you are upfront, you communicated and they accepted the risk.  Personally I do not ask if they are poz or neg but I make them aware that by doing this, I could poz them.

If you are on the floor sucking cock, and you have no open sores in your mouth, the risk to them is so little that frankly, I do not disclose.  You are suckin their dick, incredibly, HIGHLY unlikely that you will do them anyharm, so seriously .... have fun.  Again I know the puritans on this sight may bash me for this but has there EVER been a case of a poz dude sucking a neg dude and making him poz?  Show me proof!  Again, have fun, enjoy it.

Now, if a top sticks his raw cock up you, I just say, "I am poz and you can cum in me if you want" .... this works they either pull out and fill me up.  The ones that pull out usually sorry, I cannot take that risk and I say, "I understand, no worries, be careful and have fun"  Again, not always fun to say "I am poz" but you need to tell them of the risk the are taking.

It will get easier .... believe me.  

I couldn't agree more.

I actually had some dumb shit top guy ask my status.  I told him I was poz.  He stuck around for a few minutes and then asked me, "Are you sure you're poz?"  I started laughing, asked him why I would lie about being poz and then asked/told him to get the fuck out of my "room"  He was just too stupid to fuck, plain and simple.     (btw, I don't say he was a dumb shit because he asked my status, but because of the second question.)

[zeb]

Milker,

yes, you've been bad.
you could have infected someone.
and you will when you continue like this.

Besides that I don't understand why you're making such a fuss (in another thread: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=11070.0) about a guy who hasn't mentioned he's poz and who might endanger others.

Start with yourself! I hate your crybaby behaviour. Should I really feel sorry for you? C'mon!

zeb

[frenchpat]

Zeb,

Milker never asked anyone to feel sorry for him, he asked for help...

Pat

[carousel]

Milker

Thank you for starting this thread and sharing your dilemma.  I think there are many who for many reasons, would not have the courage to do so.

As we live in a time where more and more HIV are being prosecuted for their so called reckless behaviour, I thought that it was brave to post.

The expectation that we will always have to be sexually responsible is a heavy weight for any HIV person to carry for ever.

I think that there are many of us who have been through similar experiences, that share your concerns and feel empathy to you.  Unfortunately, I think many of those voices will remain silent or quiet as they may be seen as irresponsible or even worse.

I wonder if the other sexual partners are having such dilemmas about their behaviour.

[zeb]

Frenchpat,

Asking for help. He knows exactly what the problem is!
He is aware of the fact that he might have infected people with a deadly disease.
As long as we don't know the long term effects of the meds he might have taken life!

Asking for help is crybaby behaviour if you ask me. He should seek professional help and quit infecting others!
Did you see his other thread? I don't believe it.

This is how the virus spreads. Bi guys in these clubs bringing it home to their wifes and so on. Not too hard to imagine. Being poz carries a big responsebility! This responsebility reaches far. Some say hiv stops with me. Here it begins and spreads!

It makes me angry!

Zeb

[carousel]

Zeb

I'm sure that Milker will appreciate your kind words.

Thank you for bringing the bi guy angle to the fore, it didn't occur to me as one of my immediate concerns.

[frenchpat]

Zeb,

this is a support forum, not a court or a stoning ground.

To me this means that whenever I feel angry after reading a post, I try not to post immediately and also I try to understand what it is exactly that makes me angry in what I just read. In anything that makes me react strongly I believe there is something to be learnt.

After reading your answer I went to read all your posts, to learn more about you. And I think I can see why it is that Milker's actions have such effect on you, because of your own story. But Milker is not the guy who infected the woman who in turn infected you.

You, like me and most of those here who got the virus via their sexual activity, have a responsibility for what happened. Which in turn is the reason why we've probably all felt some amount of guilt afterwards. Guilt and anger. These we have to learn to deal with and redirecting them at others who post here is not supportive. And we all need support.

In participating here I think we have a responsibility to try to refrain from judging others when we post, and if we can not do that, to refrain from posting.

Writing this I have probably hijacked Milker's thread a bit and I apologize.

Pat

PS: as per how the virus can spread, there are many other ways, even if the sexual highway is the more predominant, all genders and practices included.

[thunter34]

I do agree with frenchpat about this not being a court or stoning ground.  I don't see asking for help as crybaby behavior at all, yet I also wouldn't say I "feel sorry" for milker here.  I don't think pity is expected, just advice on how to better handle a situation in the future.  That said, I do wish to call milker's attention to zeb's point within the tirade:  It's a bit of a conflict to relay this tale in this thread, yet express outrage in the other one that someone may not have added "poz" to their online profile.  How you are "so angry" and "can't believe this is still happening".  You can't completely claim the high road here, so you know...glass houses and all that...

[Miss Philicia]

Asking for help is crybaby behaviour if you ask me.

He asked for advice in negotiating in a particular situation, as someone new to the disease.  What he didn't ask for is Church Lady type moral judgments and sermonizing, which is what you are offering.

[Basquo]

He should seek professional help and quit infecting others!

Dude, that's quite a leap. The BB dude knew what he was getting into, and the rest was blowjobs. And how do you know this is ongoing?  I think you should take your anger out of the equation. Anger spreads, too.

[Miss Philicia]

Can I go out on a limb with Zeb's issue and state that, as I ascertain from frenchpat's posting research on Zeb that Zeb is a heterosexual male.  What we're discussing here is highly relevant in terms of geographic and demographic context:  gay men in a bath house.  It's not what I would call "The Real World" and I hope that doesn't sound stupid... and it's certainly not meant as any sort of reverse elitism.

In a gay bath house you'll see a big bowl of condoms by the door, but like the bowl of Oreo cookies get a lot more use frankly.  Personally, even though I was infected in the early 90's this singular fact is why I never developed a bath house habit even though I lived four blocks from one of the most popular bath houses in Manhattan.  Sure, there were a few times I went but each time it was to entertain an out-of-town guest who was horny after a night of clubbing and was drunk, plus he was HIV negative so I knew he wasn't out infecting people.  Frankly, there was several times where I sat in a corner and just watched the porn movie playing, as I was too drunk to maneuver myself around the corridors and deal with all the queens that were leering at me.  But the times I decided to have sex and I had zero problems getting laid, and by the better looking ones there.  Frankly bath houses seem overly populated with the unattractive, and I had much better experiences getting laid in a bar.  Plus I'm just not that fetishized about group and/or public sex... though I've had numerous 3-ways they've all been in the confines of a more private space.

Anyway Zeb, I guess what I'm trying to say is that in a gay bathhouse there's a bit of an unspoken rule that if you are bare backing you, as a gay man, are accepting the fact that probably 50% or more of the individuals in the bath house are infected.  I don't recall in the very few times I was there ANYONE asking or discussing their HIV status.  So I'd be careful in comparing this situation to the wider world.

[milker]

Milker,

yes, you've been bad.
you could have infected someone.
and you will when you continue like this.

Besides that I don't understand why you're making such a fuss (in another thread: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=11070.0) about a guy who hasn't mentioned he's poz and who might endanger others.

Start with yourself! I hate your crybaby behaviour. Should I really feel sorry for you? C'mon!

zeb

I'm not looking for any excuse to my behavior. The other post is to me proof that what is going on in my mind those days is complete chaos, and so what? Dealing with hiv is new to me, I have major conflicting behavior about this, it's a mess, yup I agree. I'm sure it will settle down when I learn more from people that have been there before me, the answers from this post and the other help me get on track for that long journey with the disease.

Milker.

[red_Dragon888]

sometimes it is a lonely journey to find such answers.

[GAMark]

HIV really does fuck with your life. It limits you and it narrows you. It erodes your self esteem and your ability to feel like a real, whole, viable person.

Anyone who says differently is talking out of his/her ass.

I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.

[DingoBoi]

Asking for help is crybaby behaviour if you ask me.

Isn't asking for help what these forums are based upon?   

It's learning how to deal with HIV and AIDS.  It's asking for help from those who have already gone through what one is experiencing for the first time.

It's learning from experience and the posts here about how to 'deal' with hiv in the real world.

Perhaps you might be here to just socialize, but many other people, including me, look to this forum as a venue to get the help I/we desperately need.

If it was readily available in my hometown, I wouldn't bother posting here.

Crybaby indeed.

Thankfully, I will never ask you for help.

[DingoBoi]

 

  I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.

good for you.  give it a few more months or years and then, please repost and see how you feel then. 

I don't need you to feel sorry for me or anyone here.  I can do that plenty enough myself.

I'm glad you don't experience MY reality and others here.  Saying you feel sorry for us is quite belittling, as if 'we' did something wrong.

[Miss Philicia]

I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.

You've been on meds only 6 months, yet you can really sum up the HIV experience?  Impressive.

[jkinatl2]

I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me?

Yet another compelling reason for the creation of a forum for those of us who actually have a physically and socially debilitating disease.

[Matty the Damned]

I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.

Matty the Damned has found that HIV is a great leveller. Sure, it's easy for you now. Cheeful visits to a bright and smiley doctor. Some tests and a handful of pills. It's just like one of those irritating and unnecessarily chipper animated advertisements at the top of pages here.

Because we're all living for our grand-babies.

But there will come a time when HIV will assert control over you. Matty the Damned wagers that you'll find yourself turning to "certain groups of people" then.

Regards,

MtD

[Miss Philicia]

The more I re-read that guy's post the more disgusted I become.

[ndrew]

What do u mean Philly?

Edited to add:  forget it my meds have made me stupid, I should read clearer and go to bed.

Drew

[Andy Velez]

Zeb, you're entitled to have whatever feelings come up for you during discussions here. And you can say what they are if you want to.

BUT, but you are NOT entitled to call someone names like "cry baby." So lay off of that kind of stuff.

Thanks for your cooperation.

[Andy Velez]

GAMark, you're pretty new to this site. It can take a while to get accustomed to how things work here, especially when a highly-charged discussion like this one is going on.

Using a term like "I feel sorry for you" comes across as condescending rather than compassionate.

You're welcome to express your thoughts and feelings here in a discussion and to disagree with what someone else has said. But we ask you to be mindful of how you express yourself.

Thanks for your cooperation.

[jack]

its like everything else. If you do anything to excess it will fuck you up. I guarantee it. Some humans dont have this problem, other dumb fuckers take years to figure out that moderation is the key to happiness and success.(me).
This whole argument about how those in gay bathhouses know what they are risking and rubbers wont be used even though provided is just another argument for teaching abstinence no matter its failure rate to date. Note to exclusively gay people, it isnt any fucking fun using rubbers in heterosexual sex either.

[ACinKC]

I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.

Matty the Damned has found that HIV is a great leveller. Sure, it's easy for you now. Cheeful visits to a bright and smiley doctor. Some tests and a handful of pills. It's just like one of those irritating and unnecessarily chipper animated advertisements at the top of pages here.

Because we're all living for our grand-babies.

But there will come a time when HIV will assert control over you. Matty the Damned wagers that you'll find yourself turning to "certain groups of people" then.

Regards,

MtD

Truer words were never spoken!  And this guy keeps those in mind each and every day.  Im lucky....FOR NOW.

[Moffie65]

Jack,

"This whole argument about how those in gay bathhouses know what they are risking and rubbers wont be used even though provided is just another argument for teaching abstinence no matter its failure rate to date"

That is bullshit Jack and you know it!  Just how many of your heterosexual friends are capable of abstaining in situations just like this one.  I can remember the bathhouses from the mid 80's, and all the STRAIGHT men and women who went to them.  Hell, Jack, you are perfectly aware that human nature is human nature, no matter who the person is.  There are several very conservative leaders in this country who have been caught with their pants down around their ankles, so please don't tell me that abstinence works.  What a ball of crap.  Hell, it didn't work for you and it surely didn't work for me, so lets get real and come up with a prevention message that will work, in spite of what the Southern Baptist Convention might advocate.

I feel that the perfect prevention message would possibly be one of "self respect", taught from kindergarten up through and including college.  Shit, this country is so chock full of people that are running around with guilt and self loathing of all kinds that there is little doubt for the reason for the spread of this and several other diseases.  

In the core, this is exactly what this thread is all about.  Learning how to respect ourselves and to take pride in our lives and our accomplishments.  Being in control of our feelings and our lives.  Being there for ourselves first and being aware of our impact on the society as a whole.  If we all seek and accomplish good and balanced lives, there is every expectation that we will make the right choices for us and make a difference in the spread of this disease.  Outside of that, one can pontificate about the past until the cows come home, but in the meantime, nothing constructive can come about until we start living in the present.

Thanks for letting me spew, Jack.  

I trust your golf game is doing well, and that you have finally found someone to play a few holes with from time to time.

Love,

[thunter34]

its like everything else. If you do anything to excess it will fuck you up. I guarantee it. Some humans dont have this problem, other dumb fuckers take years to figure out that moderation is the key to happiness and success.(me).
This whole argument about how those in gay bathhouses know what they are risking and rubbers wont be used even though provided is just another argument for teaching abstinence no matter its failure rate to date. Note to exclusively gay people, it isnt any fucking fun using rubbers in heterosexual sex either.

Jack makes a point:  Heterosexuals have had to consider condoms for ages because of pregnancy concerns.  It didn't become a serious issue for gay people until this shit hit the fan.  I think the reason homosexuals are so often resistent to condoms has so much more to do with the psychological and emotional intimacy of it than just the fact that it doesn't feel as good.  It stems from the stigmatization of homosexuality and the attempt to keep people forced into the closet and remain isolated and unseen.  That's something heterosexual people just don't have to confront as much on a daily basis at every step of their lives.  That point of sexual connection can be a validation of sort, a time of feeling very much real, here, alive.  I think many in the homosexual community (and I can state this of myself, for sure) couldn't stand the thought of having a barrier put up there...even there.

PS- To Moffie:  I think Jack was saying that this type of discussion about condoms not being used serves as fodder for that abstinance message, despite the fact that that argument doesn't work.  I don't think he was saying that it is a reason why abstinance should be the message, just that people who preach abstinence dredge up commentary like this to prop their arguments on.

[jack]

Moffie, I dont disagree with you. I agree with little the Southern Baptist and other right wing Christian types preach. My point is very simple,you have no chance of getting hiv if you dont have sex.  Its not for everyone and I dont think anyone should be forced to do it, but that doesnt mean the option shouldnt be presented to everyone. Everyone is different. I am an addict. Of everything. To quit drinking I avoided all my old Friends who i drank with and bars, and God knows, I love bars. I can tell you I am much happier as a person who avoids alcohol and my old Friends, then I was when I was the life of the party. I am also much happier today as a person who doesnt have sex,even though I think about it hourly,than I was when I was having sex daily with anything that had two legs.
Twenty years ago I would have preferred death to life without sex or alcohol, but I have learned how to live without them and I my life is better for it. Its not for everyone.

[Moffie65]

Tim,

" That point of sexual connection can be a validation of sort, a time of feeling very much real, here, alive."

What an astounding statement this is.....!

Wow, Tim.  I think you hit on something here that brings up so many more possibilities.  I can remember the pee parties, back rooms, sex clubs and bath houses of the 70's and 80's, and most of all I can remember the feelings of safety and comraderie from being in a room/environment of like minded and "EQUAL" men.  Your post reminded me of the feelings of closeness that we feel when we are having sex with a man and that feeling of intamate "joining" up of bodies, minds and spirits.  This really doesn't happen the same with rubber in the room.  (unless of course you are in a "latex" party)

I don't know where you were going with your post, but be sure, you did bring a flood of memories of this feeling with your post and to not recognize the utter "aloneness" that we have to confront on a daily basis in this society, and the constant state of being on the "Outside" of "acceptible" norms; sends us a message that draws us to each other and sexual venues tend to become a no-holds-barred event that encourage us to abandon all those outside messages and just be close and loving to each other. 

Wow, you really brought up a good one here, and I would love to see what others might think about your points.

Jack.  I do understand your point, but at the same time, I still think that my point holds more hope for those who really need to hear a message that will be self preserving, instead of self destructive.  As you can see, Gay society is a tad bit more complex than it might seem on the surface since most of us have been up against the "STRAIGHT" wall for most of our adult lives.  (In everything we do and say)

Love,

[Miss Philicia]

I'm sorry, there's just a lot of bullshit in a bunch of these posts.  I'd say by and large homosexuals DO use condoms otherwise you'd see HIV infection rates MUCH MUCH higher than they already are.  It's a certain distinct minority in the gay community that seemed determined to bareback for whatever reason the ascribe to, and yes indeed it's very prevalent in a loose environment that one finds in a bathhouse.  That said, any stroll in The Ramble of Central Park and you will see a lot of cum filled rubbers floating in the fish pond, so they do get used even there.

And I'm sorry, but the fact is simply that HIV isn't that extreme in the heterosexual community in the US.  I don't think it's because heterosexuals are more proficient with opening condom packaging, because I know for a fact they're actually much, much worse about it.  The large majority of heterosexual sexually active individuals fuck raw all the time and depend on the pill or other non-condom manners to avoid pregnancy, which is their $1 concern, not HIV.

I can invent all sorts of reasons that I didn't use a condom and got infected because society hates me, etc. and while partially true I knew that I should be using a condom, even back in the late 80's which I feel gives me a slighter greater "out"  (if I do indeed intellectually need one) because it was before the advent of HIV education campaigns.  That said, I wasn't a moron and I new what the methods of transmissions were.

I fucked up, it was my fault.  I didn't, nor does anyone else, need abstinence to avoid my fate.  They need to use a condom -- it's so horribly simple as to be laughable.

ps:  I'm not meaning to negate the concrete fact that homosexuality does indeed mean you are an "outsider" -- of course it does, though it is noticeably less so now than when I was growing up.  I still think it's an easy out to think that's why so many don't use condoms... I'm sure it's sometimes the case, but in most instances guys are either selfish, or just plain lazy.  I personally was just plain lazy, though I will say I was using condoms at least 75% of the time so I was still surprised when I was infected.

[Carolann]

My late husband once had sex with 72 people on a three day weekend.  AMazing what someone will confess with a high fever.  I still love him and forgave him.  Sex doesn't make a person bad.  Cruelty makes a person bad. 

[JesusLovesYou]

My late husband once had sex with 72 people on a three day weekend.  AMazing what someone will confess with a high fever.  I still love him and forgave him.  Sex doesn't make a person bad.  Cruelty makes a person bad. 

72? Wow, was this before or during your marriage? Sorry to bud in, but that is a little to much. I think once you go in the double digits in a weekend, it can get a little messy.

[GSOgymrat]

Seventy-two people?!? It's like that Asian guy who ate 53 Nathan's hot dogs in 12 minutes, repulsive yet impressive.

[zeb]

Zeb, you're entitled to have whatever feelings come up for you during discussions here. And you can say what they are if you want to.

BUT, but you are NOT entitled to call someone names like "cry baby." So lay off of that kind of stuff.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Milker, Andy,

I apologize, I got carried away by emotions. I'm really sorry for my vocabulary.

Zeb

[Miss Philicia]

Oh please... a bag of meth and free reign at the West Side Club and I could easily exceed 72.

[jkinatl2]

wow. Seriously. Go Meth.

[JesusLovesYou]

METH KILLS!

[thunter34]

Moffie,

I think you got exactly where I was going with my post above.  And to philly:  no, I am not trying to broadly excuse all lack of condom use this way.  At its simplest....yes, I was lazy and it felt better to go without.  Now, I am here chatting endlessly with you good folks.  Burned and learned.  But I stand by what I said above- it's an emotional and psychological factor that I very much believe in...if for no other reason than I was aware of it in myself prior to diagnosis.  I was somewhat aware of it prior to even venturing into the adult world of sexuality.  It's something that came upon my mind back in the mid 80's while I was still in middle school or early high school.  The notion of barriers...social, psychological, emotional...and now physical.  Insult, meet injury.

People can be free to disagree with my assessment about that factoring in, but I stand by my post.

Hunter

(who is opting for Hunter in threads featuring multiple Tims, which may happen a great deal more in days to come!)