It's Sunday Morning - Are you off to church?

[DingoBoi]

Your definition or perception of something Christian might better be labelled "fundamentalist" or "televangelist" - often the loudest voices in the Christian community, but not representative of all.

you are using circular reasoning again.  You cannot pick and choose which versus you like and which apply and don't apply.  If you can't go by all of it, you can't go by any of it.  Therefore it is all a lie.  Anything with intelligence will see it is so.

One can be loving and kind to their neighbors clearly knowing there is no existance of god.   The bible also says alot of nasty things.

Two recorded instances?  Yes, just like the holy ghost knocking up Mary.  Mmmmm yeah.   No proof there.

As to fundamentalist Christian thought, see the video of why you will never go to heaven.

Science reigns in this forum and not your propaganda.

[bear60]

Isn't it something of a circular tautology to answer Bailey's question using the Bible?

I'm an atheist for essentially the reasons given in the last link Bailey provided.  I see no evidence for God anywhere.  None.  And of he does exist, then he manifests himself as an absence and thus is to be ignored. 

Isn't it something of a circular tautology to answer Bailey's question using the Bible?

I'm an atheist for essentially the reasons given in the last link Bailey provided.  I see no evidence for God anywhere.  None.  And of he does exist, then he manifests himself as an absence and thus is to be ignored. 

[DingoBoi]

abuse where people would not critically think about what was being promoted in the name of faith.

Sadly, you continue to miss the point which is that you should think critically ABOUT your faith.  Once you start, you disprove the existance of your fairy tale.

[bear60]

Has nothing to dop wiiht me.  ha ha hop ho

[fondeveau]

you are using circular reasoning again.  You cannot pick and choose which versus you like and which apply and don't apply.  If you can't go by all of it, you can't go by any of it.  Therefore it is all a lie.  Anything with intelligence will see it is so.

One can be loving and kind to their neighbors clearly knowing there is no existance of god.   The bible also says alot of nasty things.

Two recorded instances?  Yes, just like the holy ghost knocking up Mary.  Mmmmm yeah.   No proof there.

As to fundamentalist Christian thought, see the video of why you will never go to heaven.

Science reigns in this forum and not your propaganda.

My goal isn't really to go to heaven.  Rather, to build on earth a bit of God's kingdom.  You may not find Christianity to be a system that works for you and there is enough disparity of belief that it would be hard to define anything as being "Christian."  The Catholic Church would tell you that you must believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian.  I would tell you that as a Christian you could believe it or not believe it.  I'm glad we can agree on loving your neighbors and being kind as this shows one important thing: that which unites us is greater than that which divides us.

[DingoBoi]

Understanding Your Delusion: 101


Here is an example that can help you to understand how religion works in our world today.

Example 1

Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

• There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
  He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
  During the year, he and the elves build toys.
  Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
  He puts the sack in his sleigh.
  He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
  He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
  He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
  He leaves toys for the children of the household.
  He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
  He does this all around the world in one night.
  Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.
  This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.

Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is delusional. The way that you would try to shake me from my delusion is to ask me some questions. For example, you might say to me:

"But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

"How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.

"How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

"Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.

"How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.

"How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.

"Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.

These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.

Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm my delusion. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

And so are your reasons for the existance of god.

[fondeveau]

You cannot pick and choose which versus you like and which apply and don't apply.  If you can't go by all of it, you can't go by any of it.  Therefore it is all a lie.  Anything with intelligence will see it is so.

Yet, Question (or verse #2) asked Why People Are Starving?  I've answered you that isn't that God has failed to provide, but that man has failed to share.  Therefore, you can no longer believe any of the delusions previously espoused?

[ademas]

Hey DingoBoi,

Didn't I read something in another thread about you being psychic?

Maybe you were kidding? 

If not, I'm just curious how you apply the rules of critical thinking to psychic phenomena?

(By the way, I'm agnostic at best, but lean more towards atheism.  I'm also not a big believer in psychic phenomena.)

[Cheo63]

Hey Fondeveau,

I must say that I agree with all of your answers/comments.  Couldn't have done a better job myself.  One thing that people forget is that God gave us "free will".   God doesn't punish people.  What we take as punishments are really consequences of our actions and nothing more.   Also, if people have had a bad experience with a religious person(s) tor at a church, hey automatically assume that all religious people or churches are the same.   Isn't that stereotyping?   Anyway, I wanted to say that I agree with everything you have said!

[DingoBoi]

see santa explantion... you are just making this stuff up (ok, what other people made up) believing in what everyone outside your bubble considers to be delusional.

[RapidRod]

I believe in God and it doesn't make me delusional. I don't believe in trying to convince anyone of my beliefs, nor do I like anyone trying to convince me of theirs.

[DingoBoi]

The problem is that your delusion, combined with the delusion of billions of other religious people like you, is hurting us as a species. It does not matter if you are a fundamentalist Christian, a moderate Christian or a casual Christian. Your delusion is hurting us.

A planet full of delusional people is not healthy.  The delusion of Christianity radically devalues human life.  We routinely send soldiers into battle telling them that when they die, they go to heaven.

The delusion of Christianity replaces rational thought with mythology.  60% of adults in Amerika believe that god will return and destroy the planet.  Myths like this grossly skew your thinking about the future of our species and also slow scientific progress.

The delusion of Christianity, or any religion, forces you to discard rational thought in many parts of your life and your irrationalilty hurts us all.

[RapidRod]

I'm not hurting you with my beliefs nor is anyone else.

[DingoBoi]

*see further response above... I was adding as you responded.

[RapidRod]

I don't understand why you have to flamebait this thread. You seen the topic, but you are trying to chastise persons for they way they believe. Why don't you just move on and be done, instead of pushing your beliefs that wasn't even a topic of the discussion of this thread.

[DingoBoi]

Survival, as a species, dictates that we renounce such outlandish delusions based on fantasy.  That's a pretty damn good explanation to me.

I seem to be the bad guy here.  And I was abusive in one post.  I admit and apologized for that... and not because the Tim commanded so.

The subtle and often explicit indoctrination of people into the fantasyland of religion is mortifying to me.  If you do not wish to see rebuttles to fantasy with scientific fact, which is notably what the fears forum is all about, then perhaps such threads as this should not be posted at all in these forums.

A question of 'do you go to church' can hardly be responded to without an critical evalation of the mythological deity you worship blindly even exists.

[RapidRod]

Whatever Dingo, if you want to flamebait go ahead, that is all you are doing and I hope no others grab the bait. Your statements have no bases for this thread what so ever.

[DingoBoi]

no, I'm discussing rational, logical thought.

Why don't we believe in Zues anymore?  Or any of the other 'gods'?  Because that civilization has passed, and more importantly, explanations have been found for what was once considered magic.

Mercury was the god on a flaming chariot riding across the sky.  Do you believe in that?  Nope, the sun is just a big orb of burning gas.   But at the time, it comforted people who did not understand science.

You can either accept science or reject it.  There is no empirical evidence of the existance of god and no matter how much you wish to call it flamebaiting doesn't make it so.

I'm sorry to have to challenge your dogmatic beliefs with science.   I'm sorry it doesn't hold up to that.

[dtwpuck]

Mercury was the god on a flaming chariot riding across the sky.  Do you believe in that?  Nope, the sun is just a big orb of burning gas.   But at the time, it comforted people who did not understand science.

It was actually Apollo, but I won't tell if you don't.

[DingoBoi]

bah... 

Bailey (who got a B- in Greek Mythology)

[dtwpuck]

Hey,Dingo... be careful... if you dare to disagree with some of the people on this thread, you will automatically be branded as a flamebaiter, prejudiced or any number of other heinous things, regardless of how you represent yourself.  Remember, it is the nature of belief to be not subject to proof, and, therefore, easily shaken, especially when the person screaming the loudest is not secure in his or her own beliefs.

[DingoBoi]

I'm on a holy mission from the Milk Jug... but I could convert to Aupointillism.   Yes, I would kneel and accept my savior's gifts.

[Boo Radley]

...
The delusion of Christianity, or any religion, forces you to discard rational thought in many parts of your life and your irrationalilty hurts us all.

Dingo, since we live in a "Christian" nation most of my criticism is aimed at Christianity but your bigger point is virtually ALL organized religions are inimical to human progress.  I agree.   

Boo

[aupointillimite]

I'm on a holy mission from the Milk Jug... but I could convert to Aupointillism.   Yes, I would kneel and accept my savior's gifts.

Yes!

I don't see why we're bickering when we could all get on the Aupointillimitism bandwagon and worship Parker Posey.  She's real.  I have seen her in movies!

Now shut up, and drink your Kool-Aid.

It was technically Flavor-Aid that they used (meaning they used generic colored water to take themselves to the great beyond rather than brand... what the deuce was that?)... but since I'm a kind and loving leader, I'll spring an extra 4 cents for the good stuff...

[DanielMark]

Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.
LOL! Oh dear! I think I just violated your copyright Boo.   Be gentle with me okay?

It is not in the nature of the loving God I know to hate anyone. That's a human condition.

Daniel

[dtwpuck]

Yet, Question (or verse #2) asked Why People Are Starving?  I've answered you that isn't that God has failed to provide, but that man has failed to share.  Therefore, you can no longer believe any of the delusions previously espoused?

Fondeveau, I am going to question your response here.  The assumptions underlying the statement "man has failed to share" are quite distressing to me:

1.  god made man.  man failed.  so god failed?
2.  or maybe god made man with free will.  why?  so man can create situations which allow things like starvation?  why worship such a cruel thing?
3.  bad things are caused by man.  only good things can be attributed to god.  in fact, both Augustine and Jean Cauvin, when analyzing the same questions came to the ultimate puritannical conclusion that man is inherently evil, and originated some of the doctrines of original Sin. 

In short, while I really can't say that I believe in God, or not... because I don't know, I find your explanation to be wholly dissatisfying, both from the standpoint of someone who might believe, or from someone looking at it from a scientific point of view.   

This is not the first time questions have been posed which ask why a god of infinite goodness can allow bad things to happen.  But this is not the response that I usually see which is the most satisfactory.  Usually you see things like, "god allows people to suffer in order to make them grow, in order to teach, etc"  This also opens up a whole can of worms, but blaming starvation on mankind's failure to share implies, to me, a huge failure in the entire Christian eschatology.

I respect your right to believe what you believe.    But I find this explanation to be, frankly, inhumane.

[aupointillimite]

I remember reading this in high school... it helped put me on the path to devout atheism.

I have no idea who wrote it... but it's pretty funny.

"John and Mary's Big Deal"

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss his ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, he'll kick the shit out of you."

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do what ever he wants, and what he wants is to give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ass."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and he kicks the shit out of you."

Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street."

Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?

John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the shit of you."

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from him..."

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me: "Then how do you kiss his ass?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

Me: "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on 'From the desk of Karl' letterhead. There were eleven items listed:

   1. Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
   2. Use alcohol in moderation.
   3. Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
   4. Eat right.
   5. Hank dictated this list himself.
   6. The moon is made of green cheese.
   7. Everything Hank says is right.
   8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
   9. Don't drink.
  10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
  11. Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the shit out of you.

Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."

Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me: "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me: "But 9 says 'Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me: "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."

Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because he says he's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary blushes. John says: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary looks positively stricken. John shouts: "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary sticks her fingers in her ears: "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary faints. John catches her: "Well, if I'd known you where one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

[DingoBoi]

It is not in the nature of the loving God I know to hate anyone. That's a human condition.

The bible states essentially that god was an evil prick (sorry tim, but he was kind of an evil bastard in alot of the 'tales'.)

To educate yourself
Why the bible is repulsive

[Dachshund]

Q: What do you get when you cross a Jehovah Witness with an atheist?


A: Someone who knocks on your door for no goddam good reason.

[dtwpuck]

The bible states essentially that god was an evil prick (sorry tim, but he was kind of an evil bastard in alot of the 'tales'.)

To educate yourself
Why the bible is repulsive

There are a lot of things in the Bible that demonstrate the ire of the Hebrew sky god.... and many serious scholars generally intepret these tales as allegorical, much to the chagrin of biblical literalists.  However, any time a holy doctrine is written in such a way as to allow interpretation, it becomes a point of faith for a potential schism.  Religion and belief is a messy business.  I am not sure that deprecating the purported deity serves any real purpose for intelligent conversation, but (what I believe to be the) point behind your statement is fairly common:  how can a god that's supposedly good, be portrayed doing evil things in what is supposed to be the holy canon?

[aupointillimite]

Joshua Chapter 6.  Verses 1-27.  Quite a famous story... one in which God tells the Israelites to kill everyone in Jericho... simply because they're in the way of a Hebrew migration.

1 Now the gates of Jericho were tightly shut because the people were afraid of the Israelites. No one was allowed to go out or in. 2 But the Lord said to Joshua, “I have given you Jericho, its king, and all its strong warriors. 3 You and your fighting men should march around the town once a day for six days. 4 Seven priests will walk ahead of the Ark, each carrying a ram’s horn. On the seventh day you are to march around the town seven times, with the priests blowing the horns. 5 When you hear the priests give one long blast on the rams’ horns, have all the people shout as loud as they can. Then the walls of the town will collapse, and the people can charge straight into the town.”

 6 So Joshua called together the priests and said, “Take up the Ark of the Lord’s Covenant, and assign seven priests to walk in front of it, each carrying a ram’s horn.” 7 Then he gave orders to the people: “March around the town, and the armed men will lead the way in front of the Ark of the Lord.”

 8 After Joshua spoke to the people, the seven priests with the rams’ horns started marching in the presence of the Lord, blowing the horns as they marched. And the Ark of the Lord’s Covenant followed behind them. 9 Some of the armed men marched in front of the priests with the horns and some behind the Ark, with the priests continually blowing the horns. 10 “Do not shout; do not even talk,” Joshua commanded. “Not a single word from any of you until I tell you to shout. Then shout!” 11 So the Ark of the Lord was carried around the town once that day, and then everyone returned to spend the night in the camp.

 12 Joshua got up early the next morning, and the priests again carried the Ark of the Lord. 13 The seven priests with the rams’ horns marched in front of the Ark of the Lord, blowing their horns. Again the armed men marched both in front of the priests with the horns and behind the Ark of the Lord. All this time the priests were blowing their horns. 14 On the second day they again marched around the town once and returned to the camp. They followed this pattern for six days.

 15 On the seventh day the Israelites got up at dawn and marched around the town as they had done before. But this time they went around the town seven times. 16 The seventh time around, as the priests sounded the long blast on their horns, Joshua commanded the people, “Shout! For the Lord has given you the town! 17 Jericho and everything in it must be completely destroyed[a] as an offering to the Lord. Only Rahab the prostitute and the others in her house will be spared, for she protected our spies.

 18 “Do not take any of the things set apart for destruction, or you yourselves will be completely destroyed, and you will bring trouble on the camp of Israel. 19 Everything made from silver, gold, bronze, or iron is sacred to the Lord and must be brought into his treasury.”

 20 When the people heard the sound of the rams’ horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the town and captured it. 21 They completely destroyed everything in it with their swords—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, goats, and donkeys.

 22 Meanwhile, Joshua said to the two spies, “Keep your promise. Go to the prostitute’s house and bring her out, along with all her family.”

 23 The men who had been spies went in and brought out Rahab, her father, mother, brothers, and all the other relatives who were with her. They moved her whole family to a safe place near the camp of Israel.

 24 Then the Israelites burned the town and everything in it. Only the things made from silver, gold, bronze, or iron were kept for the treasury of the Lord’s house. 25 So Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute and her relatives who were with her in the house, because she had hidden the spies Joshua sent to Jericho. And she lives among the Israelites to this day.

 26 At that time Joshua invoked this curse:

   “May the curse of the Lord fall on anyone
      who tries to rebuild the town of Jericho.
   At the cost of his firstborn son,
      he will lay its foundation.
   At the cost of his youngest son,
      he will set up its gates.”

 27 So the Lord was with Joshua, and his reputation spread throughout the land.

[aupointillimite]

Judges Chapter 1.  Verse 1-7.  God delivers 10,000 people into the hands of the Israelites to be killed.  71 kings are mutilated.

1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?

2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.

3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.

4 And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.

5 And they found Adonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, and they slew the Canaanites and the Perizzites.

6 But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes.

7 And Adonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died.

[Boo Radley]

Hey,Dingo... be careful... if you dare to disagree with some of the people on this thread, you will automatically be branded as a flamebaiter, prejudiced or any number of other heinous things, regardless of how you represent yourself.  Remember, it is the nature of belief to be not subject to proof, and, therefore, easily shaken, especially when the person screaming the loudest is not secure in his or her own beliefs.

Gee, puck, coming from you the advice above seems rather strange.  I disagreed with you (apparently) and your responses (below) claimed I had never thought out my beliefs, I am dangerous, likely to resort to violence (with a gun, yet), and my responses are emotional attacks against you.   Bailey seems as sure of his beliefs as I am.  Why haven't you given him a dose of your wisdom on the subject? 

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8828.msg107652#msg107652:

That is a rather broad brush labeling certified theists and atheists as "dangerous," dontcha think? I've been an atheist since adolescence but what someone else believes is her/his own business.  As long as you don't try to convert me I will reciprocate fully.

Sorry, Boo, but your emotional reaction basically proves my point.   You think there is no God.  Fine.  Prove it.

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8828.msg107748#msg107748

You're right that it's based on belief, which makes it oh so easy to believe with absolute certainty that you are correct.  It's well known what happens to people who are completely certain in their own righteousness... they start off spouting things like "you're the most prejudiced ... blah blah blah... and end up with a gun in their hand just to make their point.  Sorry, boo, but people who feel no need to examine their beliefs scare me.

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8828.msg107776#msg107776

I am just making a point that people who hold their beliefs with absolute certainty are more likely to react violently when challenged.  Thanks for proving my point.

It seems odd you haven't engaged Dingo in a similar dialog since he obviously holds his beliefs with "absolute certainty."  Are one atheist's views more acceptable than another's?  I got sarcastic after you continued to pontificate but that was because of your judgmental, self-righteous pronouncements. 

I guess this post is another emotional attack, too.

Boo

[DingoBoi]

well, that answer is simple boo...

you didn't provide clicky's refuting the delusion of god.  I did.

[dtwpuck]

It seems odd you haven't engaged Dingo in a similar dialog since he obviously holds his beliefs with "absolute certainty."  Are one atheist's views more acceptable than another's?  I got sarcastic after you continued to pontificate but that was because of your judgmental, self-righteous pronouncements. 

I guess this post is another emotional attack, too.

Boo

Boo, I find it interesting that you declined to quote the times where you attacked me personally.  If you would like to have an adult discussion of this topic, then I encourage it.  However, if you resort to name-calling again, I will simply ignore you.

[aupointillimite]

Huzzah!

[attachment deleted by admin]

[DingoBoi]

It's is simply hard for one of intelligence to refrain from calling people 'stupid, irrational, idiots, delusional and moronic' in the context of this discussion.

Yes, that is to be refrained from as it is not nice to be rude to others.

But when you believe in a fantasy, much like santa clause, how do you expect the rest of us to act?  Really?!?  Do you not expect us to act if you are crazy?

Extinction would be a blessing for the human race because they aren't smart enough to discern mythology from science.

edit:  who's betting on when I get banned?

[dtwpuck]

It's is simply hard for one of intelligence to refrain from calling people 'stupid, irrational, idiots, delusional and moronic' in the context of this discussion.

Yes, that is to be refrained from as it is not nice to be rude to others.

But when you believe in a fantasy, much like santa clause, how do you expect the rest of us to act?  Really?!?  Do you not expect us to act if you are crazy?

Extinction would be a blessing for the human race because they aren't smart enough to discern mythology from science.

I have enough doubts about whether god exists or not to basically decline from calling people stupid for believing in something.     This does not stop me from challenging someone's answer, as I believe i did with fondeveau.   And, I am sure, that if I got to know you, I could find things that you believe which don't fit neatly into a rational paradigm.  A purely rational person would be quite tedious I think. 

However, I would whole-heartedly agree that it is a good thing to question one's beliefs.  I have found quite a bit of personal solace in becoming comfortable with the idea that I simply do not know and cannot know the answer to life's great mysteries. 

In response to "science" vs "mythology", there are certainly things that we hold as cannonically true which pass for science now, but in the future will be looked upon with bemuse expressions of "oh how quaint".    Humors were once determined to be a medical paradigm.. as in science.  I don't think anyone would take that seriously now... except maybe a few sensitive new age types.  So even that type of discussion fills me with doubt.

As far as the extinction of the human race goes.... well, I'm not particularly fond of the idea, but I suppose all species eventually go extinct.  Why should we be an exception.

[Teresa]

If you want to think I'm stupid or a moron for being a Christian and believing in God..so be it.  You have a right to your opinion as do I. I just don't call people names that have different beliefs than I do, or try to get them to believe as I do.

Hugs
Teresa

[Boo Radley]

Boo, I find it interesting that you declined to quote the times where you attacked me personally.  If you would like to have an adult discussion of this topic, then I encourage it.  However, if you resort to name-calling again, I will simply ignore you.

I find it interesting you declared atheists to be dangerous, unthinking, and stated "It's well known what happens to people who are completely certain in their own righteousness" when I declared myself an atheist but Bailey's posts elicited nothing similar. 

I provided the links for anyone to see -- but since you insist, here are my attacks:

Attack #1

on February 11, 2007, 04:17:37 PM
...  I am a certified agnostic.  I just can't find it within myself to be certain about something that you can't be sure of.... and I find people who are convinced they are right on this issue to be downright dangerous... and that's on both sides of the debate.  OK next topic.

That is a rather broad brush labeling certified theists and atheists as "dangerous," dontcha think? I've been an atheist since adolescence but what someone else believes is her/his own business.  As long as you don't try to convert me I will reciprocate fully.

As an atheist I have some issues of concern about U.S. society and how many major religions (or minor ones, for that matter) attempt to alter U.S. law based on religious doctrines inimical to major segments of society, like GLBTs, Muslims, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc.   The U.S.A. was not founded as a Christian government even though most Americans were (are) Christians.   Several major religions have long been a bane to GLBTs and still perpetuate the idea homosexuals/XXXXsexuals are mentally ill as well as pedophiles.  As a gay atheist I am concerned about continued influence by these forces.  As an agnostic you should be able to understand atheists prefer a more secular government, not less.

Sorry to hijack the thread but with a mind and memory span like mine it's miraculous I can finish a

Boo

Where is the attack in my message?  Exactly what makes it an emotional response?

Attack #2

Emotional reaction by asking that all people's beliefs be considered, not just yours?

If you can't or don't want to civilly argue that's fine but please don't dismiss someone's reaction as "emotional" and imply your beliefs are right and mine are wrong.  That sort of thinking is dangerous.

I have no more onus to prove there is no god any more than a theist has to prove there is.  It's based on belief.

You're the most prejudiced agnostic I've ever encountered.

Boo

Attack #3

You're right that it's based on belief, which makes it oh so easy to believe with absolute certainty that you are correct.  It's well known what happens to people who are completely certain in their own righteousness... they start off spouting things like "you're the most prejudiced ... blah blah blah... and end up with a gun in their hand just to make their point.  Sorry, boo, but people who feel no need to examine their beliefs scare me.

puck,

Your bizarre associations and sweeping declarations remind me of a schizophrenic during a psychotic break.

It's "well known" anyone who holds a belief is self-righteous.  Right.   So you're self-righteous as much as anyone else, unless you have no beliefs.  You're so omniscient you know I'm the kind of person to take up a gun to "make" my point, my beliefs have not been examined before coming to them, I just plucked them from thin air, and my kind of thinking scares you.  Your belief, sitting on the fence, is obviously the only correct one.  Your thinking, black or white, is correct.

You scare me.

Are you hiding an anencephalic cranium under that hat?  Ha ha!!  Funny joke!

Boo

By the last post I was sarcastic and nasty, I have no problem admitting it.  You refused to respond with valid arguments, merely asserting I was "emotional," "dangerous," "proving my[puck's] point," without further explanation.   You've done it again in your last response.   The certainty of your stand and opinion is unshakable.

Normally I don't get ticked off about simple disagreements but your hubris with me and civil behavior to Bailey, who is in agreement with my belief, appears contradictory.  By your standards he is far more dangerous in that he does proselytize.  I clearly stated I don't care what anyone believes as long as I'm not forced or expected to believe it . 

You are the one of the people you describe as "completely certain in their own righteousness."

Boo

[DingoBoi]

I am dangerous.

I bark.

and I can bite.

and I apply LOGIC where none exists currently when it comes to religion.

OOOOH.. I'm evil.   

[DingoBoi]

If you want to think I'm stupid or a moron for being a Christian and believing in God..so be it.  You have a right to your opinion as do I. I just don't call people names that have different beliefs than I do, or try to get them to believe as I do.

Hugs
Teresa

I do believe you are a moron.   No, I do not mean that as flamebait™ but you said it.  There is no proof and until you can provide such, god just doesn't exist no matter how much you want him to.

Have you not watched any of the videos I've posted?

Surely that would raise some questions in the devout?

I think religion and the belief in the mythology is intrisically damaging to our society, our health and our future.  It is no longer my doom I worry about, but humanties.

[Boo Radley]

If you want to think I'm stupid or a moron for being a Christian and believing in God..so be it.  You have a right to your opinion as do I.

Teresa,

Regardless of my beliefs every person has the right to her/his own beliefs as long as she/he doesn't try to force them on someone else.  If someone is evangelical I don't care but once I state I'm not interested in further discussion I expect  my wish to be respected.  IOW, don't try to convert me to your beliefs once I ask you to stop and I won't try to convert you to mine.

When I make derogatory remarks about Christians I'm referring to those who believe the USA is a "Christian" country and expect everyone else to live based on their beliefs.   Christians who believe their religion is the only "correct" one concern and offend me (anyone who thinks his/her religion is right scares me).  As an atheist I don't believe in a deity so prefer my government to be completely free of religious influence (religious influence, that is -- if they want to battle poverty, HIV, cancer, hangnails, whatever, their voices are as valid as anyone's).

Boo 

[Boo Radley]

well, that answer is simple boo...

you didn't provide clicky's refuting the delusion of god.  I did.

From my original response I stated I don't care what others believe as long as I'm not expected to be bound by their religious beliefs.  I have no need to post clickys because I'm not trying to convince anyone my belief is correct and theirs is wrong.

Smart-ass! (please excuse my emotional attack against you)

Boo

P.S.  I agree with you about the need to remove religion as a social influence but also believe people need to come to the same conclusion on their own.   It's often frustrating to live in a "Christian" society but debating religion is usually an exercise in futility.  I'll be long dead before our society adopts similar views but that's life.  I didn't think I'd live to see Bowers vs Hardwick overturned so at 51 I'm happy with that small step in the right direction.

[Ann]

Boo, Puck, Dingo, (in no particular order)

It's Nurse Ratchet here with your chill pills. Line up boys, and I want to see you take them right here in front of me and I want to see under your tongues afterwards.

Get the picture?

Ann

[DingoBoi]

Why oh why can't I be the first chosen one?

[dtwpuck]

Boo, I still think the only point you are making is that you know how to copy and paste. You take things out of context, and you are so incredibly ardent about shouting my points down that I have a lot of trouble taking your points seriously, even when they are valid.   I am not going to address your copious quoting etc etc etc.  I think you have been out of line to me and you owe me an apology.  If you chose not to do so, then fine.  It's your right and your life.

Now, if you really want to know what I think...not that I think you do, but here goes:

I simply do not know if there is a god or not.

I take to heart the idea that many people who are convinced that they do know the answer to life's great mysteries become so attached to the idea that they are right that they become dangerous.  The examples of this in history are legion and if you really want me to point you to sources of dangerous atheists, I don't have to look very hard.  Dogma is a dangerous thing.  I find myself emotionally siding with atheists most of the time, but I do not agree that it is appropriate to call people names because they believe something.
 
I have drawn the conclusion that it is impossible to know this.  I have also drawn the conclusion that I could be wrong.  Perhaps you feel this is fence-sitting, but for me it was a very difficult path to choose.  My father is a Mormon and my mother is Jewish.  (neat combo, eh - the sixties).  Atheism had an appeal to me at one time, but I quickly came to the conclusion that most atheists were as dogmatic in their beliefs as Christians or the Sephardic family that is my mother's.    My personal experience is that people spend most of their time shouting each other down on the topics of religion and not really listening.   As soon as you say something, rather than asking for a clarification of an ambiguous statement, they start drawing their own fears of being wrong into it, and then "otherizing" the person enough to make statements which range from "you're an idiot" to "all jews should be exterminated" to "religion is the opiate of the masses". 

I find religion to be absolutely fascinating.  Understanding what people believe and why holds no end of interest to me.  I read incessantly about any number of topics, but my personal library is heavily weighted with tomes of philosophy and the philosophy of religion.  In a way, if you were to analyze this personality quirk, you might draw the conclusion that at some level I might still be searching for the proof I need of one thing to be true.  That maybe I am not comfortable with my own certainty about uncertainty, so to speak.  Perhaps you would be right. 

I don't believe it is possible to prove there is no god.  Someone on here said that this is a logical conundrum.    Well, since you can prove the following negative statement that "five does not equal six" , it follows that there might be a proof out there that god does not exist.  I have yet to see it.  I also have yet to see even any proof at all that god really does exist.  I just don't think it's within the realm of human capability to be right about this.  (Please don't get me started on the cogito... really, do you think it's possible to prove god exists because you are playing with a ball of wax.  to me that sounds more like an acid trip)

There are many many many books out which delve deeply into the causes of atrocity.  (from 9-11, to the Holocaust, to collectivization, to the Armenian genocide, to the salem witch trial and on and on and on)  Almost all of them, if not all of them, point to the process of "otherization", where people are dehumanized.  It starts with "they are different from me" to "my belief is X, and all who believe otherwise are damned."  Unless you inject doubt into a belief structure, this is the paramount immanent danger of dogma. 

I very much enjoy discussion of these topics.  But I don't particularly enjoy being called names.  Any emotional reaction I have to such things is, in my opinion, unsurprising.   

[dtwpuck]

Boo, Puck, Dingo, (in no particular order)

It's Nurse Ratchet here with your chill pills. Line up boys, and I want to see you take them right here in front of me and I want to see under your tongues afterwards.

Get the picture?

Ann

Sorry Ann, I was in the middle of writing my novel when you posted this.  I prefer lemon.  Cherry is disgusting.

[Boo Radley]

Boo, I still think the only point you are making is that you know how to copy and paste. You take things out of context, and you are so incredibly ardent about shouting my points down that I have a lot of trouble taking your points seriously, even when they are valid.   I am not going to address your copious quoting etc etc etc.  I think you have been out of line to me and you owe me an apology.  If you chose not to do so, then fine.  It's your right and your life.

Now, if you really want to know what I think...not that I think you do, but here goes:

No, puck, I don't care what you think about religion because it's not relevant.  When we were actually discussing personal beliefs it would have been fine but the issue is why one atheist's statements are labeled emotional, dangerous, so certain in their beliefs... they'll take up a gun, and other pronouncements but another atheist's views, stated far more vocally, elicit polite chatter?

You insult me and expect an apology?  Sorry for the offense but I was simply responding to your succinct smugness.

Again you dodge a real discussion by declaring I "take things out of context" even though I've now posted almost the entire exchange verbatim.  First you complain I excluded your innocuous posts but when I post them that's too "copious" for you to respond to even though I've simply enumerated several points.   I am so "ardent" you have trouble taking me seriously.   I make a nasty joke about your brain and you expect me to apologize.  Um, what's that biblical phrase??  "Let the person without sin cast the first stone"  is close... 

I have trouble taking you seriously, too.  You continue to make unsupported pronouncements about me and then refuse to respond to direct quotes you asked for in the first place.

Boo
P.S. Ann, if this post is inappropriate (except for being off-topic) you'll have to identify the problems for me.  My apologies in advance.  I know I'm off-topic but you would also, I fear, disapprove if I created a new thread in Off Topic, am I right?  I believe puck has made his last post in response and this will be my last response in this thread. 

[aupointillimite]

I think it's interesting how 68.6% never go to church (except for funerals).

We're either Jews or heathens.

In my case, I'm lucky enough to be both.  Well, part Jewish, anyway... but all heathen