Belgium started negotiations with the US on lifting the ban on HIV POS

[heartforyou]

Good news for all of us.

Our foreign affairs minister has started the necessary talk to lift the ban on HIV pos people to enter the US.

Apparently other EU countries are backing the move.

I think thus could and should be quoted as "braking news".

hermie is happy

[water duck]

WONDERFUL !!

Herman, darling, is it the federal government, or the Wallon or the Flemish minister that is spear-heading this talk ??

Well , the good news is that when they finish biting off each other tails, or comparing who has 'the bigger thing ' ; they would have found a cure !! That is 'broken news' 

Siang is well

[Cliff]

The only problem is that I think there would need to be a repeal of the law, (which was part of another package of laws), that made HIV immigrantion, (whether temporary or permanent), illegal.  There doesn't appear to be any widespread support for a repeal of the HIV ban from either party, so it's unlikely to get through Congress anytime soon.

[Andy Velez]

Yes, it would require the repealing of the onerous law here in US. However, Belgium's effort is to be cheered because it can be the beginning of throwing an international spotlight on this disgusting situation.

By doing that and hopefully by being joined by other countries in its demand that signals to me that something can happen in relation to reversing this law. Not today and not tomorrow, but sometime. I pray so and I see this as progress and a cheering contrast to what fills newspaper pages these days.

 

[zephyr]

Hi dear Hermie...

  BRAVO TO BELGIUM!!  It's about time this topic gets brought into the 'spotlight'. Within the last two weeks, I have noticed, with much interest, that the discussion is beginning...and rightly so.

Last week, I was invited to sit in on a world-wide conference call generated by a group called Champ Academy, where the U.S. immigration policy was one of the topics. We are all unified in our thinking that the XVI International AIDS Conference (Toronto-August 13-18th) will stimulate conversation, as we collectively recognize that a Conference has never happened in the United States because of this policy.

Thank you so much for alerting us to this important step being taken.

With much love,

Zephyr

[Eldon]

This is a topic that needs to be re-visited by Congress. It's not fair that there is a ban on HIV Belguimanise people to enter inside of the U.S. Definitely an entry on the Congress agenda.

[water duck]

Mr Eldon,

If you would kindly go to the thread 'Hey, cowardly sons......' presently at the Clinical Trials Forums, in Tim Horn's post he used the word ' shady fundraising '  he also provided the following link :

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=237.msg5742#msg5742

let me highlight the following : in your AM forums profile ......you are a 37 year old male residing in Miami .......
...............ICQ connection.............you are a 19 year old male living in Kieu, Ukraine

I am seriously questioning your sincerity as till now you had not replied to any of this thread !! HOW COME!!

Or this is a topic that needs to be re-visited by Congress !!

Siang

[Eldon]

Vincent Siang,

You need to apologize to me as well as Ann in this open forum. Get your facts straight. You jumped off the lilly pad dead in the water. (and it's freezing cold too).

[Jeffreyj]

I wonder how many of the hundreds of thousands illegal aliens are HIV POZ? I think we let them in. How hypocritical we can be here in the USA! Go Figure!
I will add this question to my monthly email to our state senator John McCain.
So far he has only responded to my bitching about high gas prices after Katrina. But you never know.....

[brandy]

Hi Guys,
the ban is not just for people who are hivt, and it does not apply to persons who are just visiting the USA, it applys to persons seeking permanent residence, what they check for is HIV, TUBERCOLOSIS,SYPHILLIS, HEPITITIS and other communicable diseases.
And it is not just the USA that has this policy, it is a worlwide immigration law, i went through this myself, the law  is if you are infected  with any of these diseases you are automatically denied entry, for  reasons such as you might be a burden on that economy.
However lets so you have friends or family in any of these country, they can file a petition  showing that they are FINANCIALLY able to care for you, and you will not be a burden on the GOVERNMENT, you are granted a waiver and allowed entry.
It does not happen overnight, in most if not all cases an immigration LAWYER IS REQUIRED.
And let me also state that once you apply for permannet residence, you receive a notice which states that you will be checked for hiv, and any other communicable disease, and once if found poitive for any you will be denied entry, but it also states that a waiver can be granted,if you are financially dependent.
brandy

[bobik]

Hey Herman,

Finally! This is great news, I hope your government tries to find support in other european countries. Is this news published somewhere? Then I can notify my own political party to try and follow your example.

Coen

[heartforyou]

It has been published in several belgian newspapers.
Our minister of foreign affairs talked about it . His name is "minister De Gucht".

Thats all I can remember.

hug

Hermie

[babygirl17844]

hmmm opinions, well mine is like this, in question form. is it so bad that the U.S. wants to keep the level of infectious disease out of the U.S.? but then again the U.S. is not even taking care of their own issues when it comes to many things not just disease but homeless, employment ect...we go a blow up people and places have our people killed and then spend millions to rebuild how silly is that? do they rebuild what they destroy? remember 9-11, who is paying for that? that money could help the people who are in the U.S. legally. sorry if this one upsets anyone but I think we need to start worrying about our own people and get the illegals back to where they belong, I feel we are so over crowded now and cant even take care of the citizens of the U.S. so why take on more of a burden, clean house so to speak.

[LatinAlexander]

Ok. This is the first time I am gonna talk like this here...

BabyGirl:

"is it so bad that the U.S. wants to keep the level of infectious disease out of the U.S." Te answer is no...But do you forget where all this began 25 years ago? NEW YORK CITY...Yes, that was the city where many GREAT gay guys died.. Now, excuse me, but are we HIV+ such dangerous people to keep away from any where in the world? We are not with an infection to get transmitted by rats or by fleas...This is not medieval times, when you would "quarantine" us in some geographies...That goes against EVERY SINGLE HUMAN RIGHT... THAT IS PLAIN AND SIMPLE DISCRIMINATION...

I Love US, do not get me wrong (Damn I love buying at Century 21, and I had friends at the WTC -who managed to get out of there-). I enjoy going by I75 on Florida, and having dinner at Pike Market in Seattle with those awesome shrimps, and I think that the US has MUCH more important things to work on that focusing in such a minimal thing as a few of us with a CHRONICAL diease (as it's stated by the same top medical references from US). And which is the bad part of all that?  That every single step towards a discriminatory action, like that RIDICULOUS ban, only destroys MORE the image of the land of The American Dream. An image that many brave soldiers created by saving the day in the World War II

Do you have any idea about how the people look at you in many places in Europe, Asia, and Latin America if you say you are from United States? Believe me, MANY POPLE AROUND THE WORLD DOESN'T LIKE THE US , JUST EXACTLY FOR THOSE ATTITUDES OF DISCRIMINATION (HIV+ Ban, Kioto, United Nations Resolutions, 25% of World Wide contamination with only 4% of the population, etc, etc) and  (not going to the Iraq, Afganistan, etc).

Sorry if I got a little bis nasty here...But it is just that I have seen the face of discrimination..the face in which one human being is simply put apart by reasons that may affect to anyone of us.... That same thought reminds me of one of the Nazis ideas.. (unperfect people, left, perfect people to the right). For God's sake we are all humans...not just imperfect goods that must be put in some sort of boxes, away from the perfect ones...

And yes, feeling very strongly about this.... (And do not blame Efavirenz for this mood)

Alex

[babygirl17844]

HIV/AIDS has been here longer then 25 years, its only been labled for 25 years. there are proven cases now that it started as far back as in the 50's but was mis-diagnosed as TB. anyway, I am in no way prejudice against anyone but I feel the U.S. needs to deal with the issues at hand with the U.S. citizens before we add more people to the collection. the image of the U.S. was destroyed a long time ago with slavery and raceism and continues today. and I am not a racist either I date out of my race as a matter of fact, finally decided to live the way I wanted with whom I wanted instead of what was expected of me.

[Cliff]

Allowing people living with HIV to temporarily visit the US (tourists) is unlikely to add to the burden of society.  Foreign individuals living with HIV, (just like those coming in with other health conditions, like heart disease, diabetes, etc), are unlikely to access medical services nor obtain treatment for their disease in the US.  And if they do, they would be required, most likely, to pay for their care.  I think the initial reason, (well at least the primary one), was to prevent the spread of the disease.  However, the disease is spread by the actions of Americans not foreign visitors.  Also, our HIV infection rate is significantly higher than that of Europe, so the ban has not been successful in protecting Americans from HIV.

Most countries, (including Canada, Australia among others), do make it more difficult for people living with HIV to immigrate into their country, by having them prove that they are unlikely to be a burden to society, (in terms of accessing medical care and governmental services)...which can be difficult to prove if you're positive.   But even with the risk that someone with HIV may burden society, an outright ban does not seem reasonable (nor fair), given that you can still have people, living with HIV, becoming a net positive impact to your society/economy (the main goal of immigration).  Plus these governments (including the US) do not check for heart disease, cancer and diabetes, other costly medical conditions that require long-term care.

[newone]

It is immoral and absurd that potentially you could visit the US on a regular basis if you were HIV+ and at the same time be denied entry if you were HIV+ with your own medicines.

[bobik]

Babygirl:
If keeping people with HIV out of the USA was an effective strategy I would agree with you. But this measure leads to nothing. For US citizens to be infected there needs to be unsafe sex from their side. If they don;t get it from foreigners they will get it from US poz citizens.

Coen

[heartforyou]

After all, the key to succes is education.

Our AMG are a good example of what I mean by education.That is what we e.g. do when we go out for dinner.
We tell people we are positive and encourage them to get tested. Or we tell people in shops why we are visiting.
I speak of Canada, but I would love to be able to fly into the US without fear of being caught and do the same.

If the US could only realise that letting in responsable HIV poz persons could raise the general awareness.

To me it proves that the most liberal country in the world has indeed very strange twists in its laws.

hermie

[brandy]

guys,
the issue is COMMUNICABLE DISEASES, cancer, and heart problems, do not qualify as COMMUNICABLE DISEASES, why visitors are not required to take the necessary test is beause they are not coming for PERMANENT RESIDENCE.
You have to also understand (as I had to) even though it does not seem fair, countries like the USA need to take care of their own people before they can take care of others, the treatments and medications for communicable diseases are EXPENSIVE, THE issue is that other countries need to start taking  care of their ownproblems and not depend on countries like the USA to do that.
How can america take on the influx of foreigners with communicable diseases when thay can't even take care of The elderly, the Vetrans, the homeless etc.
This is not just about HIV, so I cannot understand why the focus is only on HIV, it is about COMMUNICABLE DISEASES.
I am hivt also, and I remember back when I was denied entry how devastating that was for me, but life goes on.
We have to understand the reasoning behind this, and not turn in into an issue about HIV.

[Cliff]

There is no evidence that individuals who are positive contribute to the infection rate in the US.  Again, if this policy was about the protection of US citizens, then it has failed miserably since the US HIV infection rate far exceeds those countries that do NOT have a ban on HIV travelers.  The assumption that people who are positive will come to the US and infect our citizens, means that you believe that people who are positive don't care about not infecting others.  I don't believe that is the case.  I believe the vast majority of those who know their status do what they need to do to not pass on the virus.

Also it is debateable whether HIV even classifies as a communicable disease, since it is not easily transmitted.  If you do a search for communicable diseases, you will find that many health authorities do not include HIV in their list of such diseases.

Finally, the point about other diseases, (cancer, heart disease and diabetes), is not that they are communicable diseases that the government doesn't ban, but that they are expensive diseases to treat and often require life-long treatment, (in response to the argument that the US should not take on an influx of foreigners with expensive medical treatments).  We already are and HIV should not be treated differently.

[newone]

I wont argue about the morals behind the decision to allow  or not allow HIV+ people permanently into the country....
I just cannot understand why as an HIV+ visitor you are not allowed to enter the country and only if you carry your own medications (being prove that you are HIV+).

[brandy]

No one is talking about hiv foreigners infecting US citizens, the issue is having diseases which they classify as communicable, the problem is care, treatment , medications for hiv is expensive.
do you have any idea how many US citizens are   inifected and have no access to care, or even medication.
Funding for ADAP in places like new york was almost cut, except that people protested, how many persons hivt or not are denied entry to the usa every week? Do they stop living? Hell no
Treatment or care For any illness is very expensive, the United States needs to take care of their own, just like all other countries.
The USA cannot solve the problems of the world.
HIV meds alone depending on what combination you are on is close to $1000.00 dollars a month.
What we need to focus on is access to better Insurance for persons infected, laws or legislations on the drug companies to lower the cost of drugs, care and support for all persons living with not only hiv but other diseases as well.
America is not the save all , be all, it is one country with problems like everybody else.
brandy

[babygirl17844]

I am not against anybody visiting this country,but. you know there is always a but..... who is going to make sure the visitors leave when they are supposed to leave? we have so many illegals here now. they work under the table which means an American is missing out on a job I'm here in jersey and see that everyday here. men standing all over the place waiting for someone to stop and offer them work and by noon all of them are gone. ok now they are not getting paid the amount someone on the books would be paid but they also are not paying taxes, the people in my area have 3 and 4 families living in 1 place so they are making out big time in the cash department. and sure an hiv person may come here with meds but who is going to basically babysit to make sure they are on the way home before they run out? and if they run out where will they get meds from? and most times a claimed visit is actually a way to get in and stay in the country i know several illegals, they live in peoples basements and work under the table (and are hiv). i just think we have enough here. that's all.

[brandy]

babygirl,
I agree with you 100%, and as unfair as this policy may be the truth is every country needs to learn to take care of themsleves, the USA is only one country.
I myself fell victim to this immigration law back in 1994, what did I do? I became involved in issues in my own country, I was one of the front line persons in Jamaica at the time who helped to change the policies concerning people infected with HIV and AIDS.
I did not sit and throw stones at the USA for not allowing me entry, No I went about facilitating changes in my own country, which further on down the road gave me the privillage of eventually getting to the USA where I now reside, HIVt and all.
The laws exist not only in the USA, but like I said is an international immigartion law, and so I fail to understand why everyone is only focusing on the USA.
I have friends and family back in Jamaica, who have being denied entry into the USA just on financial status alone, do they curl up and die? no Life goes on.
I am actually relevied to see that someone else really understands.
peace Brandy

[Cliff]

You are giving us red herrings ladies.

1.  Yes, immigration is a big issue in the States, is it really relevant here?  Not every foreigner stepping foot on American soil, is looking to become an illegal immigrant (regardless of their HIV status).

2.  This issue primarily impacts individuals living with HIV who are looking to come to the US for a temporary vacation/holiday.  These are not individuals who are looking to come to the US to drain our ADAP finances or to bus tables at $2/hr.

3.  Most democratic nations do NOT have a blanket ban on HIV travelers.  Some may have restrictions on becomming a resident (i.e., obtaining a visa), but they don't include people who are simply coming in for a tourist trip.  That's the issue.

4.  Most countries that do not have a ban on HIV travelers, nevertheless do have restrictions on people accessing their healthcare systems (regardless of what they are suffering from).  Generally you have to be a resident or be covered under one of the nation's health schemes in order to access (non-emergency) health care.  The isn't all that different from the US.  You generally have to be covered under a health scheme (whether public or private) in order to obtain health coverage.  That's not to say that there aren't services available for undocumented workers or foreigners.  But by and large, it would be difficult for someone to just step off a plane and walk into a clinic and obtain HIV meds.  Plus you would need to prove that this is even a motivation of those who seek to end the HIV ban.  People who want the ban lifted already have access to HIV meds/treatment in their home countries.  They are simply looking to come to the US (legally) to have a good time.  They don't care nor need ADAP services, (let's not forget that the US isn't the only country in the world that has access to HIV meds/treatment).

In any event, you could alleviate this concern by simply saying that the current law should be replaced by one that allows HIV travelers enter the US legally, but restricts ADAP/Ryan White services to legal residents only (I wouldn't be surprised if this rule doesn't already exist in many states).  And I personally don't like this option either, because it is dangerous having undocumented workers not having access to healthcare.  But it would help the politicans get over the fact that someone wouldn't be allowed to just walk out of a JFK terminal and head to St. Vincent's Hospital, grab a 6 months supply of Kaletra/Combivir and hop back on the plane and take their spoils to their home in Brighton/Hove, UK (where they could have gotten the meds for free anyway).

[aphaun]

I wonder why Belgium is in this spotlight.

Is there some special relationship being cultivated between the U.S.A. and Belgium, or is this a blanket E.U. matter?

I’d feel a lot more comfortable if HIV was recognized for what it is, rather than something it is not.

HIV is not a casually communicable disease spread by coughing or touching like TB or Leprosy.

On the books, it’s inaccurately listed as an easily communicable contagion. But one must do a little work to get it.

Kinda like marijuana being listed as a narcotic, which it is not, or a tomato as a vegetable, when in fact it is a fruit, (a berry, to be specific).

I’d like to see the same adventure taken by other countries.

However, it is the host country that must make the statutory changes. In this case, with respect to Belgium, it’s the U.S.A. that will have to make immigration amendments to permit HIV+ Belgians onto her territory. But, why not allow the Brits, the French, the Canadians, or anybody from anywhere else?

What do the Belgians have that nobody else has got?

[blondbeauty]

I hope this negotiations are successful. Imagine me entering the USA for work (flight attendant) and having to tell an officer about my condition in front of all the crew.
I understand every country wants to prevent the entrance of foreign people that are a charge for the national health system, but if you are only going on holidays its absurd even asking.
In Europe nobody will ask you about your health status, but you will need to be a legal resident to receive medical attention from the NHS. In Spain, at least, you need a sanitary card to collect your meds at the hospital, so illegal immigrants will not have the right to obtain them by that means. Maybe the red cross or other organizations will provide them to them but not the social security, so the government does not need to know and that is why they don´t ask.
I wonder why any European resident would like to go to the USA being HIV+. We have all our treatment 100% free here...

[babygirl17844]

blondbeauty; 
                    good to hear you have decent hiv treatment over there . would be great if all areas across the globe could claim that

[aphaun]

Yes, in Europe one has numerous opportunities to experience different cultures and climates in a relatively small area. 

In Canada, depending on where you begin, if you drive east or west you’ll drive for days before you get anywhere. If you live in the border belt-line and drive north you’ll drive forever and arrive nowhere.

And airfares are horrific. It’s cheaper to fly to Europe across the ocean than to most cities within Canada.

That leaves the nearest alternative, the U.S.A., right next-door which has lots of interesting options for travel, visiting friends, family and vacation, except for the HIV ban-bugaboo.

AIDS Healthcare in Canada is excellent. I mean, it can use some improvement, but all in all it’s very good. The Universal Healthcare plan is under fire though and Canadians will have to fight to preserve it. Some people want to change it to resemble the U.S. system, private and semi private. This is not allowed in Canada.

When I read what “The American Way” “provides” to its citizens I’m filled with wonder and amazement. The unwell are driven into poverty if they’re not already there.

The impoverished have little defense and no financial strength. When I read about health facilities closing or AIDS funds being cut and U.S. citizens losing access to meds, or waiting lists for care and meds, I shake my head in wonder. The confusing plethora of insurance systems and the cost of drugs is frightening. The richest country in the world provides so little help to its most needy people.

Xenophobia has its reverse effect though. After all these years of dread about crossing the U.S. border, I lift my eyes to view other sites as destinations. Now I only go to the U.S. to visit family on special occasions, like soon there’s a wedding coming up that makes me nervous, but these days I prefer to go to places that are less hassle, like the Middle East.

I’m sorry Jacques Brel is dead, and I don’t know anybody in Belgium.

[Val]

...and there is something called "Le Yeti" roaming freely around the Flemish side

Val
___
___

[babygirl17844]

like I said the USA has its own issues to work on, if your poor, broke and own nothing you will get help if not you have to sell stuff to lower your assets to get help---you dont have to give up your home if you own it but if your car is too new forget about it SSI and SSDI will deny you because you have an expensive asset, same with public programs that help with food and housing help (rent/morgage). we are sorry but your assets if sold amout to too much, like I want to sell my car. but unfortunately my car is a 1997 with high miles and a little damage so its worth nothing, so even in a pinch selling it is worthless. USA motto to get help " make sure they are rock bottom and keep them there" ~~~~ poverty brought on by your own country, but hey lets blow someone up and then rebuild them oh and lets make ourself lok good by helping another country by donateing millions our people will  deal with it. I dont care if the USA helps other countries but I say if you cant help your own what good are you? I know alot of you are from other countries and I know you see this is how the USA is run. how is it in your country?

[manchesteruk]

I'm so troubled by some of the views stated on this thread.  I honestly don't see the problem with HIV+ people visiting the US.  Immigration is a different story, then each person should be judged on an individual basis as they do in Canada.  But to suggest that allowing HIV+ people in the US would cause the spread of the virus is absolutely ridiculous.  The UK has one of the most relaxed immigration policies in the world (more than half a million Eastern European workers have arrived in the UK in the past two years) and yet it has a much smaller HIV infection rate than the US.  Why not just relax the ban on tourists going to the US as a start?

[blondbeauty]

I admire the USA in may ways and would like to be able to keep on spending my holidays there without the threaten of being caught for being HIV+. What do I think about the current Spanish president...He is the most ignorant and foolish I have ever seen. I even prefer the dead dictator Francisco Franco.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P677mpU_ROg

[aphaun]

Manchesteruk you are correct.

Unfortunately, the ban on HIV+ persons entering the U.S.A. was a mean-spirited amendment instigated by Jesse Helms and approved by Ronald Reagan.

Undoing this amendment is a very complicated affair. There are a lot of ignorant, misinformed people in the U.S. Government as well as others who are just plain homophobic who believe or want to believe that AIDS is a gay disease, and in spite of the facts, resist a humane attitude.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20000925_allen.html

The following article is a little long-winded but you can get the facts about Jesse Helms and his impact on AIDS immigration, (even short-term visits), restrictions.

http://www.aids.org/atn/a-128-03.html

Some interesting information about the ban:

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/docs/3E4632A8-4499-4A1D-8049-961C433B5A14.asp
 
And here we see a tentative temporary lifting of the ban:
http://www.houstonvoice.com/2006/3-25/news/national/ban.cfm


But the ban remains in place and it will take an Act of Congress to lift it.

[aphaun]

I prefer dead dictators to live ones.

[blondbeauty]

His grave is beautiful  But the cross is too small 

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Ann]

guys,
the issue is COMMUNICABLE DISEASES, cancer, and heart problems, do not qualify as COMMUNICABLE DISEASES, why visitors are not required to take the necessary test is beause they are not coming for PERMANENT RESIDENCE.

Brandy,

I think you are misunderstanding something here. People who are hiv positive are denied entry to the US PERIOD. That means tourists too.

The only way to get into the US if you are positive - even if you just want to visit Disneyland - is to lie and hope you don't get found out, or get a special visa that will remain in your passport and announce to any immigration official - or anyone else who may need to see your passport - that you are hiv positive.

You might be able to get away with this if you are not on meds, but people who ARE on meds run the very real risk of being found out at customs and being treated like a criminal, immediately deported and barred entry for LIFE.

Ann

[jack]

why didnt Klinton toss this ban?
Does everyone forget the amount of aids fear in the early and mid 80s?  No one knew how bad this thing was gonna get. It was probably very responsible to bar hiv positives from entering the US given that little was known about the virus then.
Now the ban seems ridiculous, especially to those of us who are hiv+.   I am not so sure it seems ridiculous to the those who aren't hiv+.
As soon as the evil Bush is out of office, I am sure the ban will be dropped.
You do realize that in making your point that hivers should have access to US, you are gonna make many think that hiv is not that big a deal.

[brandy]

Ann,
I am not misunderstanding anything, if all persons hivt were denied entry to the USA, how do those who do not know of their status?
There are persons who are hivt, and do have a visiting visa, In new York city alone last year 15 known persons from my country who had regular visa and were in the USA and decided not to go back to Jamaica, applied  to Differnt AIDS organizations in NEW YORK for sponsorship or assistance them to remain in the USA.
Five persons from Trindad. , two from Asia, fifteen from Haiti, did the same thing.
How did they get here in the first place? they had regular visitors visas.
Let me enlighten you, I lived in New York for one year, there are many persons with hiv, who came here on visiting visas who through the Ryan White Center, Haitan Services, who decided not to go back home  were given housing, medical care, food, clothingetc.
Also for your information there are persons who live in the caribbean who have access to ADAP in New York, these are the ones who decided to go back home, all they needed to do was to provide an address In New York City, their meds would be sent to that address aand then Mailed to them in whatever countries they are living.
People from Jamaica only had to get a letter from their health Department to allow the meds to come in, various doctors, friends and families would fedex these persons.
So do not tell me about what i am misunderstanding, In february of this year my friend from Jamaica who is HIVt, visited wih me for one week, on a regular visitors visa.
So I am not just throwing things in the air, I do have prof and know ecxactly what I am talking about.

[aphaun]

Of eligible locations where ADAP functions, Jamaica appears to have dropped off the list, if ever it was on it.

So, if I understand this correctly, all a person in Jamaica has to do is register a U.S. address, have ADAP send their meds to that address, so they can be reshipped to them in Jamaica.

Isn’t that called FRAUD?

Why doesn’t ADAP send the meds to Jamaica directly?

And what about the hapless American citizens who aren’t getting meds because someone from outside the country is scoring and getting U.S. drug mailed to them? The U.S. does have drug delivery problem, also known as poverty.

Honestly, I don’t begrudge lifesaving drugs for anyone, but it appears to me that someone or some people have figured out a way to be invisible at the U.S. border and to have the U.S. deliver ARVs to needy communities in developing countries.

All I can say is, "It's about time!"

And I say, “Give the United States a Prize for The Humanities.”

Oh, and by the way, let me in too.

[aphaun]

Wow, BB,
Franco certainly left his mark!
I was in Spain in 1974—learned how to drive standard in a Siat—nearly crashed into 2 Guardia.
It was almost as bad as getting caught with ARVs at the U.S.border.

[brandy]

Let me explain so you understand, ADAP itself does not send medication to Jamaica or any other country, what I was trying to bring across is that persons who are hivt and have a regualr VISA, enter the USA, there are people working in various agencies (WHICH I WILL NOT NAME) in various cities around the country who will assist these persons to obtain meds.
A person lets say from Jamaica is given a REGULAR VISA, which is good for ten years, they do not have to do a medical, if and when they find out their hiv status, the information is not relayed to US authorities, so they can still travel to the usa on that visa.
The only time HIVt information is passed on to US authorities is when the request is for a permaNENT visa
Persons who are hivt, and have a regular visa, once you connect with the right person, who works in a health care facility in the USA, not sure if  it happens in all states, but know for a fact that it happens in New York.,
all they have to do to qualify for adap, is to get their lab work done, supply a known address IN NEW YORK, where they pretend to reside, Adap will send the meds to THE ADDRESS IN NEW YORK(NOT JAMAICA), the person or persons at that address who is family or friend of the recipient wii fedex the meds to jamaica, or the recipient will come to the USA and collect the meds themselves.

In as much the same manner as illegal immigrants can obtain drivers licences, social security numbers etc.
nothing is hard to do if you have the right source, which I agree is wrong.
But I wrote this to prove my point that hivt persons who have a regular visiting visa, and have never been tested by INS for permanent status do enter the USA, and please bear in mind, it is not just Jamaicans, but people from all over.
Peace

[aphaun]

I understand what is going on here. Indeed we are in parallel universes.

The United Nations is an entity unto itself. Anyone on U.N. business is immune from laws and regulations of the territory on which the U.N. does business, whether a delegate to UNGASS or a speaker with a gun in his pocket.

http://www.un.int/usa/host_p-i.htm

“if and when they find out their hiv status, the information is not relayed to US authorities, so they can still travel to the usa on that visa.”—brandy

There is the proof that even you realize that there are consequences if the U.S. authorities discover the truth.

[brandy]

Let me clarify what I ment when I said "the information is not relayed to the US authorites", it is not up to the individual to relay this information, when you apply for a permanent Visa, you arequired to do A medical, the letter which yoou receive from INS tells you taht before you will be granted a Permant residence Visa, you will be tested for HIV, tubercolosis, and what they classify as communicable diseases, the letter also states that if you are founds positive you for any of these diseasese you will automatically be denied entry, nowhere does it state if you are found positive it is only hiv, if you are shown to have any of the diseses you will be denied entry.
There is a Special Center where you will have to go , persons applying for permant residence even to canada, have to go to the same place to get tested, I think every country has a centre for this.
If your tests comes back positve, you are asked to do a second test, this is the WESTERN BLOC test, if that comes back positive, the doctors send that information to The US consulate in  the country where you would be granted the visa.
You then will go to the consulate, where the immigration officers will tell you what your options are, you can file a waiver etc, but friends or family living in the USA will have to prove that they will be finanacially responsible for you and you will not be a burden on the economy, this requires an immigration lawyer in the USA, ONCE THIS IS DONE, AND IT DOES TAKE SOME TIME, WHEN they receive the documentation and if it meets thier standards your hivt clause iS then waved, and you are granted the visa.
Persons applying for a regular visa,( to enter as a tourist), are not required to have these tests done, for one they are expensive when I did mine in 1994 it was $100.00us dollars, which in my currency was $4000.00
Four thousand dollars.
When you apply for a regular visa, you are only required to pay the visa fee which is non refundable,  hence persons who might know their status for other reasons than testing for a permannet visa, or might not even be aware of their status, if they meet the guidlines to show that they have enough ties in Jamaica Meaning that they own homes, property, have family in jamaica, etc, enough to say that they will not remain in the USA are granted a TOURIST VISA.

[joemutt]

You got the facts wrong. HIV poz tourists are not allowed into the USas a matter of routine:

Section 212 (a) (1) (A) (i) of the Immigration and Nationality Act renders inadmissible any application for a visa or admission who is found to have a communicable disease of public health significance, which includes HIV infection.

HIV was added to the list in 1987 and has not been removed.

If you are HIV pos and want to visit close family, go for medical care or coduct business for a period no longer than 30 days you must apply for a waiver. These waivers are not automatically granted. Your hiv satus will then beknown to the uS Aministration.

If you chose to travel to the US without said waiver and Immigration happens on your HIV poz status (through interview, search (medicine) or ultimately testing) you may be turned away.(meaning: have to take the next flight back to your point of departure).

[Grasshopper]

I think it's clearly stated here:
http://help.customs.gov/cgi-bin/customs.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=899&p_created=1105639888&p_sid=gR4armgi&p_accessibility=0&p_lva=752&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MjMmcF9wcm9kcz0yMywyMTkmcF9jYXRzPTAmcF9wdj0yLjIxOSZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1

[Matty the Damned]

Brandy,

I don't know what your particular issue is but let me say that the US strictly prohibits the entry of HIV positive people and that includes tourist visas. It started as a regulation in the 80's and progressed to an Act of Congress in the 1990's signed by President Clinton.

In fact amongst civilised nations, the USA is notorious for this particular policy.

No matter which way you try to slice this thing, you're wrong. You can invoke the UN General Assembly all you want but it doesn't change that single fact. Now, you're entitled to be wrong. That's cool, but we're entitled to point it out when you are.

Just sayin'

MtD

[brandy]

There is a differnece between an immigrant visa and a non-immigrant visa, if you would read the document in its entirety you would see that.
like I said my friend who is hivt, spent one week with me here in the usa, she came on a non-immigrant visa, she then went to Miami where she spent three weeks with her mom.by the way she vists the USA twice every year.
Like I also stated there are persons who came to New York on non-immigrant visa's who are hivt, and decided not to return to their country of origin, and got sponsorship to remain in the USA.
Please read the differences for a non-immigrant visa, and an immigrant visa.
I will not argue this subject further, as many persons only see what they want to see.
For those of you who live in the usa, why don't you write a letter to your congressmen/women etc. and tell them that you would gladly open up your homes, gladly provide health insurance with your own money, pay for the food and clothing of all persons hivt or not who wish to come to the USA, so therfore they should just grant everyone a visa to come in. Tell them there should be no restrictions at all, let everyone in.
For those of you who live in other countries, why don't you try to fix whats wrong with your country before bashing the usa on it's head, Nobody likes americans, but everyone wants to come to america.
Does everyone with hiv/aids in your country have access to care and treatment? Do persons with hiv/aids in your country face stigma? why not try to change what is wrong in your part of the world, and make a difference there? what about your immigration laws?
America is only one country with problems of it's own.

[Matty the Damned]

Does everyone with hiv/aids in your country have access to care and treatment?

Yes.

MtD

[carousel]

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[frenchpat]

For those of you who live in other countries, why don't you try to fix whats wrong with your country before bashing the usa on it's head, Nobody likes americans, but everyone wants to come to america.
Does everyone with hiv/aids in your country have access to care and treatment? Do persons with hiv/aids in your country face stigma? why not try to change what is wrong in your part of the world, and make a difference there?

Brandy,

1) Not everyone wants to go to America, sorry   I have very good american friends, have worked and spent vacations there, but I would not want to live there. There ARE other nice places in the world, believe me.

2) Yes, everyone with hiv in my country has access to health care and gets his haart meds paid for by the state. We are not just lucky, this was fought for. Now, after more battles, sculptra treatment is also taken care of.

3) Stigma starts at the individual level. No government can make a population stigma free, but it can have policies that  inform people, as stigma, like racism, starts with ignorance and fear.

Pat

[jack]

I can't wait to see the politician who takes this one on(not gonna happen).  The majority of the people in the US do not have HIV, and the majority of people in the US don't want to get HIV, no way this ban gets tossed till there is a cure. You can argue and protest till the cows come home, it ain't gonna happen. Not enough votes or money in it for any US pol to take it on.

[Matty the Damned]

I can't wait to see the politician who takes this one on(not gonna happen).  The majority of the people in the US do not have HIV, and the majority of people in the US don't want to get HIV, no way this ban gets tossed till there is a cure. You can argue and protest till the cows come home, it ain't gonna happen. Not enough votes or money in it for any US pol to take it on.

I totally agree Jakey. Given US realpolitik, I can't see this law being repealed at all.

MtD

[blondbeauty]

Nobody likes Americans? I don´t think that is true. No country is perfect and you can always find laws or regulations that are absurd in any part of the world.
I dont think changing things that are wrong in other countries is going to change this discrimination of USA and other countries (dictatorships) against HIV+ individuals.
One thing has nothing to do with he other. There must be some kind of failure in the reasoning part of your brain, Brandy.
In Europe you can enter freely with HIV and treatment is 100% free. So there is nothing to change in this matter.
I wouldn´t like to live in America. I like the country and the people, but not the competitivity in most aspects of life. I work to live. I don´t live to work. I love my 4 weeks of holidays every year that can turn into 8 more (adding the recovery days to recover from your vacations) and the chance of asking for 15 more days off without payment.
In have an University degree which was completely payed by the government an many more things.

[jack]

Nothing is free, someone is paying for your healthcare,education,and hiv meds. If you don't pay for it someone else is.
This ban had nothing to do  with prejudice, it had to do with protecting US citizens from the HIV virus.  The media and others had this country in a full tilt panic over HIV in the 80s, I have no idea what is was like in your country but things get crazy over here when the media sinks their teeth into something. they wont let it go and politicians are forced to do things they many not want to do,just to get the bright light off of them and to keep their government job.
To say this law was passed because of prejudice is pure ignorance of what was going on then. If you look at the ban today,without looking back to the time frame it was passed in,it does appear based on prejudice.
Now to get the ban tossed, a politician or group would have make a strong point that HIV is not really a bad thing.  As an HIV+ person, I can tell you we don't wanna make that case. The same frenzy which produced this ban also started much of the hiv drug research and hiv study.
Clinton didn't end this ban, the evil Bush didn't, and the next president won't either. We are stuck with it. There are many other battles much more important.

[Tim Horn]

Brandy:

Not to gang up on you, but you really don't seem clear on the facts regarding entry into the United States if you're HIV positive. 

The HIV immigration prohibition began in 1987, when Congress enacted a measure barring people infected with HIV from entering the U.S. -- whether it be temporary (non-immigrant) visas (including tourist, work, and student visas)  -- or establishing legal permanent (immigrant) residency status here.  This ban reflected the public’s intense fear of HIV and AIDS during the mid-80s, as well as economic concerns that HIV-positive immigrants would put undue strain on health care resources.

HIV testing is only required for those seeking to establish permanent residency in the U.S., whether they're applying through the U.S. consulate in their current country of citizenship/residence or while attempting to change their current immigrant status while residing in the U.S.  Even for some hopeful non-immigrants -- such as "K" and "V" visa applicants (K non-immigrant visa as the fiancee or the spouse of a U.S. citizen or for a V non-immigrant visa as the spouse or child of a lawful permanent resident) -- must undergo HIV testing before being granted a visa. 

For other non-immigrant visa applicants, HIV testing is not required.  However, they are STILL BANNED FROM U.S. ENTRY.  While many HIV-positive non-immigrants do enter the U.S. through proper channels, they are technically doing so illegally if they are knowingly HIV positive and fail to check off on their immigration form that they have a communicable disease.  The fact is, the vast majority of HIV-positive people "look like everyone else," so it's not like an INS agent will have cause to stop them.  However, let's not forget about what happens during a customs inspection -- if an HIV-positive person enters the United States, does not report that he has a communicable disease on his immigration form, but is found to have HIV mediciations (antiretrovirals) in his or her luggage, he or she can -- and often will -- be held at the airport and deported. 

Yes, there are ways to enter the U.S. legally as an HIV-positive person.  By applying for an HIV waiver through the U.S. consulate, it is possible -- but by no means guaranteed -- that legal entry can be obtained.  However, the applicant's HIV status is permanently recorded if a waiver is granted, which can be a true headache if he or she ever hopes to visit, work, or study in the U.S. again. 

Here is a very nice article, published by the American Foundation for AIDS Research, that you might find informative and interesting:

http://www.amfar.org/cgi-bin/iowa/programs/publicp/z.record.html?record=174   


Tim Horn

[Grasshopper]

Perhaps cabincrew members are familiar with this form:

https://forms.customs.gov/customsrf/getformharness.asp?formName=cf-7507-form.xft

[blondbeauty]

Jack, everybody pays taxes. But in some contries part of those taxes are used to provide healthcare for everybody, education, meds...and in some others, not. That is what I mean when I say "free". I am paying to the social security the same as I did before I needed treatment for HIV. I am not charged a plus for it.
Yes Grasshopper, I can recognize that form..."are you Nazi?" Amazing question. Who is going to answer yes?

[carousel]

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[Grasshopper]

Here is a sample of the I-94 form, and the questions you need to answer :

Question A) Do you have a communicable disease; physical or mental disorder; or are you a drug abuser or addict ?

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/id_visa/vwp/i94_samples.xml

http://206.241.31.147/ImageCache/cgov/content/travel/id_5fvisa/i94w_5fback_5fhires_2egif/v1/i94w_5fback_5fhires.gif

[jack]

this law was not designed to frighten or scare people. It was put into law because people were scared and frightened. It was not passed to prejudice people even though it does appear to be prejudiced today. Again if you don't back to the period of time it was passed you miss the reason it was passed. It was passed to protect US citizens from HIV and in an attempt to stop the spread of the virus when there was little knowledge of the virus. Many of us were told we only had a couple of years to live at that time.
Now we have meds that allow most of us with hiv to live a "normal lifespan", things are different. But the fear that was created in the 80s still exists in many people who are not hiv+. Its all we heard over here 24/7 for several years.
No way is any politician gonna use some of his political capital so foreigners with hiv can visit the US. There are too many other groups that want something that the politician can get votes or money in return for. Everyone wants something from the government and I hate to say this isn't even on the radar. It has nothing to do with prejudice. It is what it is.

[Ann]

Jack,

It might not have been prejudice so much that caused the law to be put on the books in the first place, but it certainly IS prejudice keeping it there.

Ann

[brandy]

It is refreshinng to know that in most other countries, persons with hiv/Aids seem to have access to care treatment etc. also access to meds.
maybe these countries can help the USA to make sure that all persons living in the great USA with this disese also have thses oppurtunities.
And my friends that do vist the USA do come in legally, also those persons hivt who came to the USA as Visitors, and deciided not to go back to their countries of origin some being here as long as four to five years because they overstayed their visas, were granted immunity afterr being sponsered by agencies, families and friends, now reside in New York, they also came in legally.For those of them who needed medication, care, housing, and treatment before they were granted immunity, the sate of new york tax payers were  paying for that. For those who still reside in public housing, or are disabled and not able to work, the tax payers are paying for that also.
Also let me add that I fell victim to this law, after I went back home to Jamaica after attending the UNgeneral assembly, I fell in love with another hivt person while at the assembly, he is an american, he came to jamaica to visit me numerous times, eventually we got married in jamaica, he came  back home to the USA, filed the necessary papers, gave the proof they needed to show that he would be financially responsible for me, it took us one year, but after doing all this I was fortunate to be granted A waver, Reason for me living  in the USA at this point. There are many of you who seem to think I have no idea what I am talking about, but I have been there ok.
If you guys would get on the website Canada HIV/AIDS Legal Network and read iit in its entirety, also see immigration laws and hiv in britain and other countries, you will see some simililarity with regards to US Laws, cocerning persons with hiv.

[Cliff]

I think the UK's immigration laws are rather lax.  It only took two weeks for me to get my work permit.  No medical questions asked.  No medical exam required.  I am working on getting Will immigrated, but the hitch there is the married/partnership rules, (due to the limited number of locations one can get a DP in the US).  His HIV status, similar to mine, will not be an issue and no medical exam will be required.  Though there has been talk, (by the Tories), of changing this, at least I remember reading stories about this when I first arrived.

Up until it recently expired, I also had a work permit in South Africa.  They required the completion of a medical questionnaire and an examination by my personal doctor, but there were no direct questions on HIV, (only workers in certain industries, like mining, are required to take an HIV test).  The questions were a bit vague (communicable diseases and venereal diseases), but my doctor was comfortable in certifying that HIV/HSV did not apply, so he signed away.  The form list examples of such diseases (TB, Hepatitis, etc..) and though it did have a ("e.g." after the list) the fact that the government did not specifically list HIV (considering how much that disease impacts the nation), made us reasonably sure they did not care about HIV.

Of course that doesn't mean that HIV discrimination is a uniquely American experience, nor that discrimination (HIV) doesn't happen in Europe.  I have known of individuals who have been harassed by UK immigration under a little known rule that if one appears "sick" they can be denied admission into the country.  Such vague rules are always at risk of being subject to improper interpretation.

[jupiter]

[quote)

The only way to get into the US if you are positive - even if you just want to visit Disneyland - is to lie and hope you don't get found out, or get a special visa that will remain in your passport and announce to any immigration official - or anyone else who may need to see your passport - that you are hiv positive.

[/quote]

If your not on meds there is no way they can find out unless you tell them. Right?

[joemutt]

Right. Now I have to admit I went to LA once when I didn't know yet that you cdn't go there with my meds and all, and nobody checked. But now I know what kind of 'welcome' might wait for me there, I feel less inclined to discover America. Also when you don't get the waiver/visa and they find your meds than you already broke how many laws, phew, guess I'll spend my pink dollars somewhere else.

[joemutt]

What do the Belgians have that nobody else has got?

Balls, that's what we've got, big solid balls

[attachment deleted by admin]

[blondbeauty]

Yes! Balls and the Administration of the European Union. 

[joemutt]

And also this : Manneken Pis

[attachment deleted by admin]

[belgium]

oooh those balls, since they put new plating on them, they shine soooo much!
but now serious, what did the US administration hopes to achieve with a ban on hiv+ tourists?
does anyone here seriously believe a piece of paper will stop someone who is hiv+ from entering the US if  he or she has his mind set on to itt?
nope! so what is the purpose? scare away those infected? the whole thing was concieved to appease the scared voter! by handing out a piece of paper ,the USgovt did all it can do to stop hiv from coming to the us,wich is ,to put it in a nutshell, nothingzilch,zero.

over here in europe people did and dont get themselves worked up over these maters, realising al too well laws like these wil not stop anyone from doing what he intend to do. and as fear for missuse of the health service goes, there are safeguards in place to prevent that, more even, i dont see many hiv patients from country's like France,Belgium,Holland, Germany ?spain and Italy jumping a plane to take disadvantage of the US health care, mainly because they have state of the art treatment and medication at a fraction of the cost an average US citizen has to pay, provided he is lucky enough to have an insurence that will cover him

[Val]

Truth is --- and I don't care what kinds of excuses are given ---  this is not the first time that the U.S.  sides with countries such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and so on i.e. countries that have a very poor record on  Human Rights.   It is  not even worth bothering with the citation of sources!
The real question is: "When will America finally decide to behave like a civilized nation?"  No civilized nation has this ban on Hivers.  No civilized nation upholds the death penalty.  No civilized nation...well, I'd  better stop 'cause this is to no avail!
Also, what good is it to go telling other countries how to behave, what they can get or not when the U.S. has one of the poorest records  on Human Rights?  The Chinese Government, for example, must laugh at Bush when he visits the country! 
Thank God/dess  for Belgium, for Western Europe and some very few other civilized nations of the world.

Val
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P.S. For as  much as I love the U.S.A. (I really, really do!), I would never include it in the same level of civilization as Western Europe.  And I'd never be able to live there for these same reasons cited above.  It may  be ..."The Greatest Place on Earth"... for the Americans, it is not for me!  I love Europe (and Brazil) way too much for that!
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[Ann]

[quote)

The only way to get into the US if you are positive - even if you just want to visit Disneyland - is to lie and hope you don't get found out, or get a special visa that will remain in your passport and announce to any immigration official - or anyone else who may need to see your passport - that you are hiv positive.



If your not on meds there is no way they can find out unless you tell them. Right?

Hi Jupiter,

Well, right and wrong. It all depends on circumstance. There was an article a few years ago - in the UK's Positive Nation if I remember correctly - that said if you're a gay hiv positive man, there were certain precautions you needed to take while going through customs. Allegedly, men who were openly gay/camp acting (or flamboyantly dressed) have been known to be taken aside and given a grilling about their hiv status. I also believe that they can ask you to take a rapid hiv antibody test (the oral 20 minute swab). Allegedly, the same thing goes for people of colour - especially from developing nations - who "look sick". They don't seem to need solid proof to pull you out for further scrutiny, they only need suspicion.

When it comes down to it, it is a luck of the draw whether or not you end up in the queue with the over-zealous customs agent. It's a "racial profiling" type thing. Just as some people today might be stopped and searched for nothing more than "traveling while Asian", it's possible to be stopped and harassed at a US boarder for "traveling while gay".

Saying all that, it doesn't happen all that often. But it can and it does. To my mind, the fact that the majority get away with going through customs with their hiv status undetected doesn't forgive the law being in place.

Ann

[Dennis]

I understand the law but find it a bit rediculous.  I think If I was European and wanted to visit the US with my meds that i wouldn't hesitate.  I think the officials at our US airports are more focused on finding liquid based bombs and other devices that I really doubt they're too worried about whats in my prescription bottles in my checked luggage. 

Is there any documentation or does anyone know someone personally that turned away at one of our airports and sent home because hiv meds were found in their checked or carry on luggage? Or, lets say you're coming from the UK (no visa required), does the official in immigration ask if you AIDS? 

Not to downplay the stupidity of this law, but sometimes I think the HIV community take this law more seriously than the government. 

[Val]

Hi, Dennis!
I, personally, don't know anyone in the situation you described above.  However, my doctor told me one horrible story when I inquired with him about my trip to NYC last May.  In addition to that,  I've heard so many cases  from my European as well as from my  South American friends, that I wonder whether America is a "civilized nation" or not! 
Find below just some examples of what I am alluding to:

http://www.aidsnet.ch/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=246
http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid17981.asp
http://www.aids.org/atn/a-128-03.html

I won't bother doing it, but I could tell you a story of a friend of a friend who was searched,  and his passport stamped,  while returning  home to Italy.  The search and the inquisition that follows it, in these cases,  is always something as degrading and embarrassing  for a human being as it is scary.  It is not enough to suffer dearly because of this disease, the stigma and ignorance attached to it.  The U.S. Government had to add the cherry to the infamous cake.
And I really don't think Hivers are worrying more than The infamous U.S. Administration who put/voted  this law in place.  The problem today,  is that we hear and see so many things from our TV sets that it goes in through one ear and out through the other.  It is, usually but Thank God/dess not always,  only when you are personally  affected by something; only when injustice is done to you directly; only when it hurts on your own skin that, suddenly, things take on a new dimension!


Val
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