desperately need an expert...

[paranoid???]

 Hello all,

Wow, so glad I have found this site.  My situation is this.  I was involved in a "low risk" situation around 8 weeks or so ago.  Yes, yet another paranoid oral!  I performed oral sex on this individual of an unknown status, without ejaculation but exposure to precum. I did get tested at the 5 weeks mark and tested negative but afterwards I experienced coughing, soar throat, red mark on the roof of my mouth(not soar but I was looking!) and headache.  Is my mind just playing tricks on me, or does this sound like ARS?  No fever or rash on the trunk but I am freaked out!  Also, any idea what generation of ELISA they use in Canada?  specifically Ontario?  I know you say 6 week testing is a good indication of your status, is there really a big difference from 5 weeks to 6 weeks?  Thanks.

[Morgan]

Paranoid,

The encounter you describe would be considered very low risk.  The symptoms don't sound like ars.  It would be an extremely rare event for someone to become infected in the situation you describe.

Throw a 5 week negative test result on top of that and I don't see anything to worry about.

Morgan

[paranoid???]

Thanks for your reply Morgan.

I am just so so worried and can't shake this soar throat.  Also, is there a big difference with a 5 week and a 6 week result?

[Morgan]

Paranoid,

The average time to seroconversion is 22 days.  Obviously, the further past that time, the more reliable the result.

The timing and duration of your sore throat (which could be caused by acid reflux), is not indicative of hiv infection. 

Again, a 5 week neg coupled with an extremely low risk......

You do the math.

Morgan

[paranoid???]

Is this true with all Elisa tests?  I belive it was a 2nd generation test.  Thanks a ton.  Just freaking a little, you hear so much about people becoming infected through oral sex so it has put me into a spin!

[Morgan]

Paranoid,

Well, you see, that's just the thing.......  you really don't hear about people getting infected through oral very often.   And hardly ever without ejaculation.  So stop the spin, you have a minuscule risk here.

Morgan 

[paranoid???]

do you suggest I continue testing, test at the 12 week mark?  Do you know how accurate a test is at 5 weeks percentage wise and the liklihood this can change?  Sorry to be so obnoxious...it's very disturbing when you convinced yourself of something.  Are there documented cases on oral transmission through precum exposure only?  I nearly had a heart attack while looking at another posting on here from an individual who was infected through performing oral sex.   

[Morgan]

Paranoid,

That's a decision that you're going to have to make yourself.  I've heard about people getting struck by lightning, but I still leave the house on a cloudy day with no cardiac symptoms whatsoever. 

If it takes a negative 12 week test to let your fear go, it's probably worth it.  I don't see any reason to expect anything but a negative result though.

Morgan 
(who's falling in love with the spell check feature)

[paranoid???]

Thanks Morgan   When reading through these forums, it seems that Jkinatl2 has a lot of scientific data on oral transmission...anything on documented cases of transmission through oral with only precum?  what factors increase the likelihood of transmission?  ahhhhhhhhh!!  And as for the ARS symptoms...do they come all at the same time and than leave at the same time?  and does a fever usually accompany them?  this is really helpful, thanks!  I am afraid that my next test will be pos.  Btw, what is the difference in detection timing between the generation tests?  does Canada use 2nd or 3rd?  so many questions.....is there a huge difference?

[Morgan]

Paranoid,

Look, I can see where you're going with this......  Go get that 12 week negative test.  Your mind is going to f*ck with you until you do.  And any generation will be conclusive at that point.

Death by 1000 "what if" paper cuts is not a pretty thing to watch.

Adios,

Morgan

[paranoid???]

Morgan, you are so right.   Honestly though, I was just curious about data on precum and oral transmission...anybody?

[DingoBoi]

there is no data... no studies have ever been done on that.

but from the long term studies done on sero-discordant couples who have unprotected oral sex with cumshots, none have become infected.  From this i think it is safe to say that you don't get infected from precum.  period.

if no person got infected from swallowing full cumshots in these studies, a lesser risk like precum.. well... it aint gonna happen.

[paranoid???]

Thanks so much DingoBoi   What's your opinion on a neg 5 week result? and accuracy in terms of percentage? Is it safe to say it is probably close to the 6 week result? so many different views on transmission through precum, transmission through oral...difficult to know what to believe, that's why I am grateful for this forum.  Plus, a ton of sites state that before the 12 week mark, you are likely to receive a false negative through antibody testing!  Scares me! 

Sorry to be so irritating...my mind is playing tricks on me with a soar throat and a cough that I just can't shake (for weeks)   

Thanks

[DingoBoi]

What's your opinion on a neg 5 week result?

it will be the same as your 12 week result.

I'd say 100 percent accurate based upon you 'risk'.

if you have any concerns, retest after 12 weeks... the answer you get will not be better than that.....but the data doesn't support transmission through oral ever.

ever.

never. ever. ever.

ever ever ever never ever.

maybe in caps?

NEVER.

EVER EVER NEVER NEVER EVER

That's the data from confirmed serodiscordant couple who practice unprotected oral... with cumshots and swallowing.

[Ann]

Paranoid,

Have you had your throat checked for other sexually transmitted infections? While it is unusual for someone to become infected with hiv through giving a blowjob, it is possible to become infected in the throat with things like chlamydia or gonorhea. Get to a clinic and have a full sexual health care check up for other STIs including having a throat swab done. Hiv isn't the only STI out there and the others are all much more easily transmitted than hiv.

I do not expect your five week negative hiv test result to change.

Ann

[paranoid???]

Hi Ann,

Thank you for your response.  Yes I did get a throat swab done at 3 weeks and syphillis testing...all negative.  Maybe my throat is a result of my anxiety..who knows... 
Is it common to see a 5 week result change at 13 weeks?  I am very anxious.

[Morgan]

Paranoid,

It is possible, but by no means common.  That's why the 12/13 week test is considered conclusive. 

Three weeks was too early for a conclusive syphilis test.  It shares a 13 week window period with hiv.

That said, your risk was ALMOST non-existent.

Morgan

[paranoid???]

hi again,

so just a question...do you believe that I shoud get tested again at 13 weeks?  Is it possible for somebody to experience ARS after 5 weeks?

[Morgan]

Paranoid,

That's really up to you.... the guidelines state 13 weeks for a conclusive test.  A this point, it would probably only be for peace of mind as you are highly unlikely to have been infected in this incident. 

Re-read your thread and make a decision.

Morgan

[paranoid???]

Any idea as to where I could search for up to date information on "possible" oral transmission.  I have read some pretty amazing stuff re: studies that were done of couples for years and not one infection.   Where could I find this info?  Thanks all.

P.S. can't shake this fear.....sighhhhhhh

[jkinatl2]

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=589.0

[paranoid???]

sorry to be annoying everybody, but these "symptoms" just won't go away.  It's been 8 weeks since my exposure...is this normal?  I am afraid that my body hadn't produced enough detectable antibodies at 5 weeks.  So anxious!  Also, with lymph nodes...I do have swollen nodes in my neck and one in my arm pit that I can feel when I look for it..are they usually quite noticable? PLease help this madness!

[Morgan]

Paranoid,

Symptoms related to hiv infection usually last about a week or so starting 2-4 weeks after exposure.  They come at once and go at once.  Whatever is causing yours, it doesn't sound like hiv. 

You had a very low risk, but if testing will ease your stress (which could be responsible for some of your symptoms), then get that 12 week test for peace of mind.

Morgan

[RapidRod]

paranoid??? Quit feeling around your lymph nodes or you'll keep them swollen and sore. Did you diagnosis swollen lymph nodes or did a doctor?

[paranoid???]

 Anyhow, I have been obsessing fo 8 weeks about the possibility of being infected and have convinced myself of this.  I did the test at the 5 week mark and the nurse assured me that the negative result was about 95% accurate and has never in 12 years had anybody test pos from oral.   I felt better for a second and than got on the net and read all about false negs before 3 months, all the stories of transmission through oral.   My mind went into a complete spin and I found this site.  You are much more informative and up to date re: HIV.  So, a 5 week neg is a pretty good indication would you say?  Why all the symptoms still?  See what I mean, it never ends!!

[Morgan]

Paranoid,

That's because you assume your symptoms have something to do with hiv.  Why is is so hard to entertain the idea that your symptoms are due to something else? 

If you read your own last posting, you have every reason to expect no connection to hiv.  This is where your fear becomes irrational and, as such, a mental health issue.  I read about people winning the lottery all the time.  But that doesn't convince me that I'm next.  And that's just about what you're doing.

Morgan

[Ann]

I did the test at the 5 week mark and the nurse assured me that the negative result was about 95% accurate and has never in 12 years had anybody test pos from oral.   I felt better for a second and than got on the net and read all about false negs before 3 months, all the stories of transmission through oral.

Paranoid,

The simple answer here is for you to stay off the internet.

Either that, or keep searching the internet for reasons to freak out and feel sorry for yourself for the next... how many weeks?.. and then go and collect your conclusive negative result at the three month mark.

Ann
 

[paranoid???]

Believe me, I am not feeling sorry for myself, I am genuinely scared(especially when I am still experiencing "symptoms")and seeking the facts and opinions of all of you experts.  Not sure that was a fair statement.  That's why I asked you if a 5 week result is a pretty good indication of my status.  I understand that giving oral carries a low risk and even lower without ejaculation but in some posts I have read that precum contains more viral particals...so wouldn't that make it easier?

[paranoid???]

Is there anyway I can get Jk's opinion on this???  Wow, knows a ton about oral and potential HIV transmission...  thanks.

[jkinatl2]

Hehe, you know how to sweet talk a guy outta the woodwork, dont you?



Short answer, backed by scientific data, is that your risk, if it even exists (a debate that greater men and women than I are currently waging, way way over my academic head) is exceedingly, vanishingly small. I could not imagine a seroconversion based on the incident you describe. I would not even think to recommend a test over it.

Your comfort level is yours to enforce as YOU see fit. If you dont feel comfortable, or safe, performing oral sex without a condom, then you need to insist on one. Not because of any real HIV risk, but because of other STDs - and because sex should be fun, not a source of emotional turmoil after the fact.

[paranoid???]

Jk- you are awesome!!!  You really know your stuff and the scientific data is the info that I really need to hear right now, thank you so much!!

[paranoid???]

another question re: ARS... you say the onset is 2-4 weeks after exposure, why do you hear that symptoms happen between 1-8 weeks?  Is a dry cough, soar throat/dry throat a symptom?  I have experience these symptoms for weeks now and I can't help but think that this may be the cause of my feeling like @%&*  Also, the strange red blotch in my mouth threw me off.  Please help, I am going out of my mind here!!!

Very anxious right now     

[Matty the Damned]

another question re: ARS... you say the onset is 2-4 weeks after exposure, why do you hear that symptoms happen between 1-8 weeks?  Is a dry cough, soar throat/dry throat a symptom?  I have experience these symptoms for weeks now and I can't help but think that this may be the cause of my feeling like @%&*  Also, the strange red blotch in my mouth threw me off.  Please help, I am going out of my mind here!!!

Very anxious right now     

You're going out of your mind because you don't listen to us! We've told you that these symptoms (indeed any symptoms) are not specific to HIV infection or ARS or anything like that.

Read the lessons and if you cannot cope with your irrational fears of HIV, you need to seek the assistance of a mental health professional. We cannot provide you with that kind of support.

MtD

[paranoid???]

I find it very disturbing when you get angry at people that are genuinely scared and wondering if they can just get some advice.  I am grateful for the information that is shared here however, to be honest, it doesn't make me feel any better when somebody tells me to "seek advice from a professional"  I respect your opinion, however just wanted to know the facts.  And yes, I have read through the lessons.  Seriously dude, have a little compassion.

[Matty the Damned]

I find it very disturbing when you get angry at people that are genuinely scared and wondering if they can just get some advice.  I am grateful for the information that is shared here however, to be honest, it doesn't make me feel any better when somebody tells me to "seek advice from a professional"  I respect your opinion, however just wanted to know the facts.  And yes, I have read through the lessons.  Seriously dude, have a little compassion.

Paranoid,

I'm not angry with you. Others around here who know me will tell you I'm being particularly patient with you. I'm being forceful to emphasise the point. You're trapped in the WW cycle of questioning everything you're told because it doesn't correspond to what you want to hear. We're here to give you the facts.

And you've heard the facts. One of those is that your fears far exceed the bailiwick of this forum. If you are as terrified as you claim to be, you really need to seek some professional help. From a psychologist or similarly qualified medical professional. It would be irresponsible of me or anyone not to tell you that.

As for compassion, well how compassionate would it be for me or anyone else to pander to your irrational fears? Much better that you are told in a blunt and forthright fashion what you need to do. It will be better for you in the long run.

MtD

[paranoid???]

Am I frightened?  absolutely, do I understand my risk, yes...thanks to some wonderful experts on here, however I think it should be said that it isn't so irrational when coincidentally, I have these "symptoms" after a possible exposure, low or not. Now if my risk was ZERO than I would go on my way, however that isn't the case and I really have been feeling sick so I ask questions to better assess my situation.  That is why I ask these questions, isn't this what this forum is for?   All I ask was some professional opinions, that's all and for the most part, I did receive just that so thank you.  I do appreciate your honesty, however it doesn't make me feel any better especially when I felt like this was a "safe" place to voice my concerns/questions.

[RapidRod]

This is the place to voice your concerns and questions. But after you've been given you answers it's pretty redundant to keep asking the same questions. Now if we are not able to help you, then I suggest like Matty that you get some one on one help with your fears.

[paranoid???]

Hello experts,

I am sorry to bother you again but I can't help to shrug this nagging feeling.  I have had a dry cough for a while now (it's been approx. 9 weeks after exposure) and I am wondering if this could be a sign of ARS?  I also got a red soar on my nose that lasted for a couple of days but I can't shake this cough...should I be concerned?  Is my 5 week negative a good sign of my status?

Thanks for your patience and expertise.  I am just very, very anxious.  Never ends.

[RapidRod]

None of the symptoms you indicate sound like ARS. If you can not shake your cough as you put it see your doctor.

[Ann]

Paranoid,

While it is very rare to become infected with hiv through giving a blowjob, it is more common to get other STIs in your throat that way. In fact, chlamydia and gonorrhea in the throat can produce a dry, lingering cough. Please see a doctor and have your throat swabbed for these STIs. I'm not diagnosing you, I'm only offering a suggestion. Have it check out with a doctor. I know you've already had this done once, but sometimes it can be difficult to get a good culture from the throat. Please see a doctor who is experienced with oral STIs.

Nothing you report suggests hiv to me and I fully expect you to collect conclusive negative at the 12-13 week mark.

Ann

[paults12]

Hey Paranoid...
I came to the USA in 1995, and since then, and up until 2004, I had numerous unprotected oral sex episodes while living in New York, a city where many HIV Poz. men live. I even swallowed one time. I never woried about those episodes too much until Sept. 2004.
In Sept. 2004, I had a scary episode. 5.5 weeks after a  sexual unprotected oral and protected anal, I got all the symptoms in the book except for fever and rash. I experienced swallen tonsils, general malaise, weakness. I committed the sin of looking for syptoms on the internet, and hiv popped out. I was so scared I ran to the ER, seen many doctors, spent a fortune (even as I had health insurance at the time.) In fact, I just sent a payment of 100 dollars dating back to Dec. 2004 bill. Now I am through with any medical payments.
Long story short, I was so upset and dipressed that I rarely could eat (no appetite). Lost 30 pounds which added to my fears.
Now, to the HIV test results. All negative, even after 7 months of my last sexual episode.
A month ago, I met this guy online and in the heat of the moment, we had 69 episode, performing unprotected oral to each other. I thought I would be fine, but now I am scared again, but not like before. This time I am a bit wiser. If you read my thread on this forum "won't hit the lottery twice anytime soon", you will see that I manage to have good times even with the unfounded worry. And yes, I enjoyed my cake yesterday night.
My advice to you is my advice to me: Determine your level with comfort for the future. If unprotected oral is going to make you worried, opt for protected oral or sexual abstinence. No half an hour joyride should result in three months of nightmare. Hopefully this time I learned my lesson (we learn through repetition).
Now, go and treat yourself to something good. I am not kidding. Take a walk or have a piece of cake.
LA VITA E" BELLA-LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL...
paul

[Matty the Damned]

Paul,

Given your recent fears, you'd probably do best to stay in your own thread and let others assist Paranoid with his concerns.

Regards,

MtD

[paults12]

MTD,
Point well taken. I just thought my experience would help Paranoid. After all, I just told him that he should enjoy life. Sometimes people feel better knowing they are not alone in their troubles and that others are in their exact situation and that their fears are unfounded.
But enough with this. I will not say another word as I don't want to hijack the thread. I respect the rules and I really appreciate this site.
paul

[paranoid???]

Thanks to everybody for their response.  I will get my throat swabbed again, as this may be the case.  It feels as though my throat is closing up, coughing like crazy and I can't breath very well...sort of scares me that's all.  Thanks again!!!!

[paranoid???]

sorry to bother but I was just wondering if you thought a five week neg is almost as good as a six week neg.  Is there a big difference?  Also, if these were Primary HIV symptoms, would I still be experiencing them?  thank you for your patience.

[paranoid???]

Anybody?  Just wondering about the 5 week test result compared to the 6 week test result and experiencing "symptoms" still

[Ann]

Paranoid,

As you have been told, symptoms or the lack of symptoms mean nothing when it comes to hiv infection.

You have also been told that it is highly unlikely that you have become infected through giving a blowjob.

You have already been told that your five week test is a good indication of your true status, especially with your low risk. I don't believe your test results will change and I don't believe any of the other regulars here do either.

And again, as you have been told, get your symptoms checked out with a doctor. You could be missing something important by your myopic fixation on hiv.

Our answers to you are not going to change, no matter how many times you ask the same questions.

Ann
 

[paranoid???]

Hello all,

Yes I am back, I know.  Now, it's been approx. 3 months since my "possible exposure"  I know the only way to know is to get another test done and I indend to do this on Monday.  I just wanted to run something by you experts before (it may ease my mind because I sort of convinced myself that this test will be + and I am driving my partner mad)  Anyhow, I have had a dry cough for approx. 2 months now, I also had a yeast infection.  Now, I know these may be symptoms of HIV infection but my question is, do these specific "symptoms" come on so soon after infection??  Also, I did get another throat swab done at Public Health for Chlamydia and Ghonnereah and Syphillis, all negative.  I am going out of my mind in worry!!!    I suppose that is the only answer that I really would be interested in, if you would so kindly help me out.  I have a friend that is HIV+ and I distinctly remember him telling me that he had a dry cough that wouldn't go away and thats how he found out he was infected with the virus, but does a cough come on that soon after infection?

Thanks for your patience, just need to chill!!!  Much love.

[RapidRod]

For your information symptoms or lack of mean nothing when it comes to HIV infection. You've had your symptoms way longer than any symptoms would last for HIV. I didn't have any symptoms at all.

[paranoid???]

Thanks Rapid,

I know that symptoms mean nothing when it comes to HIV and I don't think that this is ARS, my question is that could this could just be an indicator of early infection?  Or do ppl generally stay asymptomatic for a few years before developing any sort of symptom (if they do experience symptoms, that is)

Dry cough
mouth cankers
yeast infections

what "stage" do they appear (if they appear at all)  In the first few months? or years?

Thanks so much.