POZ Community Forums
Off Topic Forums => Off Topic Forum => Topic started by: mecch on August 13, 2014, 09:50:38 pm
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WTF is happening there.
Why did a cop kill Michael Brown? And so gruesomely?
Why haven't the police interviewed Dorian Johnson, the eyewitness also involved!?
What do you guys think now that we see that police forces look -- and seemed armed and trained -- completely like combat troops? Is Ferguson a war zone - I think not...
Why is this being handled so spectacularly clumsily by the St. Louis police and any government officials implicated, who should have been out there with professional community outreach PR communication pros making peace and amends pretty quickly, no? Instead they are doing a great job fuelling the outrage and tension!
(And on a minor note, it kills me that Rachel Maddow has to interview and respect Al Sharpton on location there. He's forever on my no respect list, since his shenanigans with Tawana Brawley, which I believed was fabricated and Sharpton stewed that into one huge stink pot for his own gains.. Maybe even towards some good. But really, can't criminally wronged families find better advocates then this charlatan?)
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Not to say the mob vandalism and looting a few days ago wasn't scary but wasn't there a way to defuse that before it started? I suppose hindsight isn't worth much.
Still its chilling to see the tanks and camo clothed troops in yesterday and todays reports.... And they are shooting (rubber) and the tear gas and it all seems so wrong-headed...
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>:(
http://colorlines.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/colorlne/managed-mt/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=2&tag=Ferguson&limit=20
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Hey fantastic links, thanks.
I think this editorial makes crucial points:
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/08/michael_brown_and_our_obsession_with_respectable_black_victims.html
Black Kids Don’t Have to Be College-Bound for Their Deaths to Be Tragic
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This is good: (bold emphasis added by me)
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https://medium.com/@mcbyrne/failing-in-ferguson-how-the-police-are-doing-everything-wrong-and-why-its-dangerous-for-everyone-82e21325f622
How the Ferguson Police are failing at the most important moment in their history:
Shooting and killing an unarmed young black man, Mike Brown. No explanation needed.
Sending in the dogs. On the evening of the murder of Mike Brown, the police responded to the first wave of community anger and protest with German Shepherds. First, for historical reasons it is wrong for white police officers to show up in a predominately black community with attack dogs at a protest. Secondly, over policing creates an environment where anger accelerates.
Dressing up in Riot Gear. You don’t wear your party shoes if you don’t want to dance. When the police dress up in their riot gear and plastic shields, they are sending the message that they are ready to fight the crowd. They are saying that they are protected and that they are willing to inflict harm on the demonstrators. This causes the demonstrators to up their anger level and it creates a cycle of escalation. It’s also is a slap in the face to the first amendment.
Pointing Assault Weapons and Batons at Protesters: Guns/Batons are scary and lead to people dying. When police carry rifles to a protest, it tells the demonstrators that they are ready to kill you. Guns put peaceful protesters on edge and they cause people to overreact— chanting can become shouting, and marching can become running.
Bringing in Military Vehicles: Again, the heavier the tools, the worse the response from a crowd out of fear and anger. An angry crowd in the US should never be treated like a war zone.
Tear Gas: Tear gas should rarely, if at all be used on a crowd. First of all, folks with asthma can die from tear gas and since Ferguson is a poorer community, there is likely to be high asthma rates. Folks can also die or be critically injured if they are hit with a tear gas canister. The police made a decision to escalate the situation in Ferguson and every tear gas canister they deploy is another escalation.
Telling Journalists to Go Home: The first amendment isn't pick and choose. Journalists have a right to observe and really an obligation to report. Again, banning journalists escalates a situation.
UPDATED:
ARRESTING JOURNALISTS: Again, no explanation needed. You don’t arrest journalists.
Telling the Community not to Protest at Night: The first amendment doesn't end at sundown.
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http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2014/08/ferguson_what_are_black_politicians_doing.html?wpisrc=topstories
Black politicians have to wear kid gloves and pronounce and move gingerly because:
Being too strong on police brutality fuels Republican narratives of a “war on whites.”
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More shit to the fan:
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-police-name-michael-brown?cid=sm_m_main_1_20140815_29822566
and yes it doesn't matter
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/15/michael-brown-stole-cigars_n_5682089.html
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This article was interesting, about how the media handles black and white alleged perpetrators.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/media-black-victims_n_5673291.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000010
I have many conservative friends. On FB, they don't always have to post something directly, in order for you to get posts. They may "like" the post or comment on it, and it will tell you so and so commented or liked. So, I often see these posts from this conservative site. Of course, they always claim they're tired of all the "race cards" being played. But, you just have to look at the comments. And, the photo they chose to use. They could have used another photo of Trayvon, but they wanted to use this one. I guess flipping off the camera means you are some "thug" and are trouble. The person commenting that "you don't see whites protesting" is very telling.
What world is someone living in, when they roll their eyes at people saying there still are huge differences in how whites and blacks are treated by police and in society and they will mock the president and others for discussing it. All the while, they show their bias and racist views, while commenting how it is all just liberals stirring the pot and making race an issue, where it doesn't exist.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv22/tedunk/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zpscfd2b32f.jpg)
Posting it once was not good enough, so they posted again.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv22/tedunk/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps11b13129.jpg)
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Just flat out racism and the media loves to instigate it cause "it sells".
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This is sad no matter which way you look at it. The kid robbed a store he got shot to many times? Who knows till all the truth comes out. I hate it that in 2014 a race card is still being played. They put a curfew out in Ferguson. will this fuel more anger or will it calm some down? Only time will tell.
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The kid robbed a store he got shot to many times?
no. the kid was shot for "blocking traffic" by walking down the middle of the street and refusing to submit to the police. The Police Chief explained that the policeman who killed this kid did not know of the cigar shoplifting incident. the shoplifting video and information was released to insinuate that the kid "got what he deserved". Although the last time I checked, shoplifting was not a capital offense. :(
http://online.wsj.com/articles/police-name-darren-wilson-as-officer-in-ferguson-missouri-michael-brown-shooting-1408108371
Chief Thomas Jackson also released documents and surveillance video, alleging that Mr. Brown was tied to a robbery at a convenience store shortly before he crossed paths with police. Hours later, Mr. Jackson held another news conference in which he said Mr. Wilson, who is white, wasn't aware of the robbery when he stopped Mr. Brown.
......
Mr. Jackson said the officer stopped Mr. Brown because he was walking in the road and disrupting traffic.
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Racism is alive and well. :'(
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You are right about him not knowing he had robbed the store. I'm not taking sides here I just find it is sad that in 2014 that race is still an issue. I just hope the whole truth comes out and people calm down. someone I love very much lives not far from the area so I worry about her daily.
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following is a diatribe to a white friend of mine, she is the stereotype of privilege. all i know is, i should not be there. me and riots. ;D >:( ;D better than sex. i really don't even need to talk about this anymore.
He may make a good point regarding a cultural change in the African American community, but that change will never come in the face of blatant injustice.
Remember the Bundy ranch "protests" in Nevada? Laws clearly broken. Armed white ranchers, aiming firearms at federal agents. Demanding to graze private cattle on public lands without paying fees. Police stood down to avoid escalating the situation.
Sheriff Joe Lombardo "they were in my face yelling profanities and pointing weapons," and said, "We were outgunned, outmanned, and there would not have been a good result from it."
Are we to believe that if protesters in MO were armed (as many were at the Bundy ranch), that the police would have a more measured response? The bigger issue is the message these two pictures send to anyone with a grievance against their Government. Bring a gun.
You can dismiss this intentionally menacing armed behavior as of no consequence, but you would be wrong in that assessment. If I walked down the street threatening cops and pointing guns at them as the Bundy crowd did, I would not be surprised by the response. Brown was simply walking down the street.
Compare and contrast to protests against the killing of an unarmed citizen who in the officers knowledge was only jaywalking. When you militarize the police, they go to war against citizens. MRAP's, LRAD's, rubber bullets, dogs, tear gas. And blocking, firing on, and arresting the media was an egregious 1st amendment violation. How do they justify the difference in ROE? How do they justify that level of force?
Lets keep in mind there has been one death, and which "side" that was on. Of course the situation has escalated violently beyond reason. People are sick of getting shot to death for little to no reason. That cop only knew Brown was walking down the middle of the street, he had no other information at the time. He killed a citizen for failure to comply, and for disrespecting him.
When the jack boot is on your neck, you won't care what color it is, or if its the right boot or the left boot. Human nature is to fight to get that boot off your neck so you can breathe. We see riots after sporting events, police don't respond with this level of force then. Why now?
We have a proud tradition of protesting our Government, a tradition that is protected by the Constitution of the United States. Jefferson said that the Tree of Liberty must from time to time be watered with the blood of tyrants. Free citizens will not be treated this way by our own government.
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Sad all around.
The local white police force reacting so horribly.
The family going on to the press about how Brown was a "gentle giant" and on the right path to the American dream. (I googled his so-called "college" he was about to enter - a piece of crap chain of technical for-profit shit holes - poor young man was about to be FLEECED! And if that's him in the video throwing his weight around, he was far from a a gentle giant.)
The local police doing this character assassination and still NO release of the shooting officer's report.
The witness Dorian Johnson failing to mention in his national TV interviews, that his buddy, just mowed down in cold blood, had also just robbed a store.... But telling his lawyer.
The people so frustrated they looted shops, now twice... The other people in the community so aghast they are defending shops against looters.
The half black US president not daring to mention race in his TV remarks from the vineyard.
The slow response of the state and federal government...
The entire thing is a major rat fuck.
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On the optimist side of things, the head of the state troopers I saw on some video reports, sent in to take over, seems like a real class act and smart cookie.
Ron Johnson
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/us/trooper-ronald-s-johnson-listens-to-and-connects-with-a-ferguson-torn-by-violent-unrest.html?_r=0
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I just had Mellssa Harris-Perry's website running all her coverage of Ferguson.. Listened/watched many reports. WTF happened to her?
She repeatedly asked loaded, slanted, often rhetorical questions. Her progressive black guests could sometimes barely put up with it and a few even called her out on her oddly worded questions...
It was transparent what she was doing and I sort of support the anger and the mirroring of similar bias from the right.
But she did it all with a straight face and it's really knocked her credibility down, in my book.
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The people so frustrated they looted shops,
lol What?
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lol What?
Thats the way lefty sides like to talk about it.
Now the autopsy reports suggest Brown was facing the cop.
Lefty sites reported eyewitnesses testifying the cop shot Brown in the back. Then reported eyewitnesses saying Brown had his hands up and was pleading not to shoot.
Lefty sites won't comment on the likelihood that his hands were or were not raised.
Bullet entry points seem to suggest hands were not raised.
Righty sites interpret wounds with their theory Brown was "bum rushing" back toward the cop, who shot Brown to stop the charge, first arms, finally head...
Call in to radio show, friend of Darren Wilson (cop) corroborates the righty theory - Wilson has repeated the same scenario privately... Wilson's face reported bashed badly.
Dorian Johnson proving to be very unreliable witness. Some rumours he was involved closely in the physical altercation: Wilson-Brown....
(Where is his incident report!!!!)
Existing video taken minutes after the incident. In audio foreground, one guy is repeating the lefty theory that Brown was surrendering. In audio background, 2 guys are reporting that Brown had turned and was charging the cop.
Toxicology report not due for weeks. Rumours that its in and not favourable to Brown, but being squashed.
Eric Holder's autopsy to come, wildly expected by righty sites to be prejudiced and counteract current report, as righty sites consider him a "pro black" activist official.
Nobody knows if Obama should get more involved.
Media rat fuck keeps getting nastier.
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(Where is his incident report!!!!)
you would have thought the police would have loved to put out the incident report, right along with that video of Brown, if the policeman had actually been confronting a hostile suspect and reported it that way. Strange they have left the reports of raised hands be the only version out there so long. It'd be a shame if they let the reports of surrender continue to circulate with that amount of unrest and violence (on both sides). An incident report immediately issued could have put doubts about brown's actions into play and perhaps people wouldn't have caused this much of an uproar.
Media rat fuck keeps getting nastier.
don't blame the media. they can only report what they have access to. blame the police for not putting forth their incident report
..... unless of course that incident report says something negative about the policeman's actions in this case
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you would have thought the police would have loved to put out the incident report, right along with that video of Brown, if the policeman had actually been confronting a hostile suspect and reported it that way. Strange they have left the reports of raised hands be the only version out there so long. It'd be a shame if they let the reports of surrender continue to circulate with that amount of unrest and violence (on both sides). An incident report immediately issued could have put doubts about brown's actions into play and perhaps people wouldn't have caused this much of an uproar.
This exactly.
I'm not blaming the media for anything, just saying its a free-for-all!
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I read the 16 page incident report on the "strong-arm" robbery.
I don't know/understand - why is it legal to withhold the incident report of the incident.
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Regarding the incident report. How "convenient" with the delayed reveal.
And here are other recent news posts:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/michael-brown-protests-ferguson-hijacked-criminals-cops-n183671
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The Egyptian government on Tuesday urged the United States to exercise restraint in dealing with protesters in Ferguson, MO.
Chinese and Russian officials are warning of a potential humanitarian crisis in the restive American province of Missouri, where ancient communal tensions have boiled over into full-blown violence.
"We must use all means at our disposal to end the violence and restore calm to the region," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in comments to an emergency United Nations Security Council session on the America crisis.
Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei went further, tweeting out: “Based on global statistics,US govt is the biggest violator of #HumanRights. Besides int’l crimes,it commits crimes against its ppl” and “Today like previous years, African-Americans are still under pressure, oppressed and subjected to discrimination. #Ferguson.
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The Egyptian government on Tuesday urged the United States to exercise restraint in dealing with protesters in Ferguson, MO.
Chinese and Russian officials are warning of a potential humanitarian crisis in the restive American province of Missouri, where ancient communal tensions have boiled over into full-blown violence.
"We must use all means at our disposal to end the violence and restore calm to the region," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in comments to an emergency United Nations Security Council session on the America crisis.
Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei went further, tweeting out: “Based on global statistics,US govt is the biggest violator of #HumanRights. Besides int’l crimes,it commits crimes against its ppl” and “Today like previous years, African-Americans are still under pressure, oppressed and subjected to discrimination. #Ferguson.
This report is blowing up on the Al Jazeera Network. (Many tongues trying to find cheeks.)
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They may be hypercritical tyrants but there is ironic truth to what they are saying ... sad irony .
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Touché, Russia, Iran ;D
I let Chris Hayes reports on his website roll on my computer while I was washing dishes and cooking today. Vastly better than Melissa Harris-Perry's.
One interesting meta-observation - he bothered to make (mark of his class and intelligence) the very presence of so much media, and angry "protestors", and on-edge police/troopers/guards - kinda invites/garantees that one side can easily provoke a reaction from the other AND that it will get the attention/exposure...
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I googled around to see just how much looting and vandalism and it seems to be QUITE a lot, all summed up.. That city is being trashed.
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The only thing I see, when I watch coverage of what is happening, is that some Americans appear eager to kill other Americans. Racism is alive and well and not just in America.
Joe
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http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/the-avenue/posts/2014/08/15-ferguson-suburban-poverty#.U-5z7Ce2biq.twitter
Ferguson, Mo. Emblematic of Growing Suburban Poverty
But Ferguson has also been home to dramatic economic changes in recent years. The city’s unemployment rate rose from less than 5 percent in 2000 to over 13 percent in 2010-12. For those residents who were employed, inflation-adjusted average earnings fell by one-third. The number of households using federal Housing Choice Vouchers climbed from roughly 300 in 2000 to more than 800 by the end of the decade.
Amid these changes, poverty skyrocketed. Between 2000 and 2010-2012, Ferguson’s poor population doubled. By the end of that period, roughly one in four residents lived below the federal poverty line ($23,492 for a family of four in 2012), and 44 percent fell below twice that level.
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Within the nation’s 100 largest metro areas, the number of suburban neighborhoods where more than 20 percent of residents live below the federal poverty line more than doubled between 2000 and 2008-2012. Almost every major metro area saw suburban poverty not only grow during the 2000s but also become more concentrated in high-poverty neighborhoods. By 2008-2012, 38 percent of poor residents in the suburbs lived in neighborhoods with poverty rates of 20 percent or higher. For poor black residents in those communities, the figure was 53 percent.
Like Ferguson, many of these changing suburban communities are home to out-of-step power structures, where the leadership class, including the police force, does not reflect the rapid demographic changes that have reshaped these places.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/18/hedy-epstein-arrested-ferguson-holocaust-_n_5689822.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013
Hedy Epstein, 90-Year-Old Holocaust Survivor, Arrested During Michael Brown Protest
(http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc367/zach7041/n-HEDY-large_zpsdea8befd.jpg)
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
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IF outsiders left their sorry asses home where they belonged
maybe some of this shit would stop !
I know people that have houses very close to this area , it is an
" Up Coming " area !
Outsiders are starting shit ! I am not saying the Police from the
first day fucked up big time . Hiding facts for the sake of making a good
story is wrong !
Now today another COP killed an erratic mobster .
Carl
P.S. Too close for comfort >:(
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/18/hedy-epstein-arrested-ferguson-holocaust-_n_5689822.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013
Hedy Epstein, 90-Year-Old Holocaust Survivor, Arrested During Michael Brown Protest
(http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc367/zach7041/n-HEDY-large_zpsdea8befd.jpg)
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Absolutely wrong !
Carl
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Way too many times these situations have occurred in urban areas across the country; the Trayvon case being a little different cause the asshole that shot him was not a cop.. Trying to figure out what the facts are, has come down to a cops word against a witness word and IMO that really doesn't fly cause both can be bias.
The technology has been there for several years, to keep both the police and the public honest.. The time has came for that change.
http://time.com/3137048/ferguson-body-worn-cameras-police-hawthorne/
If the police officer had been wearing a body camera and Brown had been going for his gun as the cop alleged, his actions may have been justified.. or if Brown had his hands up as the cop executed him as the two witnesses say, then that cop could be charged.
After watching shows like COPS for several years, it's obvious that police are more likely to behave when being video recorded and Brown may have lived.
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Crawford killing is a grisly tale and not many are talking about it:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/11/john-crawford-iii_n_5669715.html
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Crawford killing is a grisly tale and not many are talking about it:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/11/john-crawford-iii_n_5669715.html
Maybe not many are talking about it because there isn't anything at all grisly in that story.
The video will help fill in the gaps, but right now, calling it "grisly" is over the top and, frankly, how these things morph into riots with folks stirring the pot before facts are known.
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Another released video of Powell killing:
>:(
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/20/kajieme-powell-shooting_n_5696546.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013
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Some more context:
This Was Michael Brown’s High School
http://dianeravitch.net/2014/08/14/this-was-michael-browns-high-school/
Michael Brown, the youth who was killed by police in Ferguson, Missouri, graduated from Normandy High School. You may recall reading here that the Normandy School District, which was 98% African-American, was merged by the state with the nearby Wellston School District, which was 100% African-American.
Michael’s graduation picture was taken in March 2014. Why so far ahead of the graduation date? The high school had only two graduation gowns, and they had to be shared by the entire class.
http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/14/1321440/-Michael-Brown-s-School?detail=facebook
“This district was created by merging two of the poorest, most heavily minority districts around St. Louis—Normandy and Wellston. The poverty rate for families sending their kids to Normandy Schools was 92 percent. At Wellston School District, the poverty rate was 98 percent. Every single student in the Wellston district was African American.
(mecch - the district is in such shambles and underfunded - as there is no tax base, since everyone is poor - it lost it state accreditation. However, because it was unaccredited, students had the legal right to demand transfer. The state hurriedly re-accredited the school despite no changes or evaluation of its quality. This reaccreditation is now being challenged... http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/judge-clears-more-normandy-students-transfer-elsewhere)
"Still, the state education board voted to merge the districts in 2010 (the first change to state school district boundaries in thirty-five years). Plagued by white flight, crashing property values that destroyed tax revenues, and a loss of state funds as the better-off residents of the area sent their children to private schools, the resulting district isn’t just short of gowns, it’s short of everything. Residents of the district voted again and again to raise their own property taxes, until their rates were actually the highest in the state, but a higher percentage of nothing was still nothing, and district revenues trended steadily down."
“So who actually runs Michael Brown’s school district? Well, the president of the board of education is Peter F. Herschend of Branson, Missouri. Herschend isn’t a former teacher, or a former principal, and doesn’t have any training in the education field. He’s the owner of Herschend Family Entertainment, which runs Silver Dollar City and other amusement parks. He’s also one of the biggest contributors to the Republican Party in the state.
“So, when you’re wondering who runs Michael Brown’s school district—when you’re wondering who’s in control of an urban, minority district so poor that the students have only two graduation gowns to share—it’s a white Republican millionaire from out state.”
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Latest I heard was Micheal Brown was charging at the police officer after the officer told him to freeze. He was taunting the officer and disobeying him. Apparently this was after a fight the two of them got into.
The result is tragic
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Yes that is supposed to be what Wilson, the cop, is saying to investigators.
Conflicting eyewitnesses.
Some of them already proven unreliable (johnson, for instance).
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This morning's news says the friend that was with Brown at the time of
the shooting had an outstanding warrant . Been arrested twice for
stealing and arrested for lying to the police in the past couple years !
He has lost all credibility . I really would like to see pictures of these
two thugs , everyone has a camera today ! We only see innocent looking
boys .
Carl
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Been arrested twice for
stealing and arrested for lying to the police in the past couple years !
are those crimes capital offenses? should police mete out the ultimate "justice" by killing people in the streets without a trial?
While all the past offenses might be some sort of evidence in a court of law, these policemen made their judgement to shoot NOT based on that information.
and on the other hand, do you see any connections between blacks, crime, poverty, lack of education, the militarization of police forces, and police overreach (brutality)?
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due process for all, including the police... why hasn't he been arrested? any citizen did what he did, would be arrested, and have their day in court
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This morning's news says the friend that was with Brown at the time of
the shooting had an outstanding warrant . Been arrested twice for
stealing and arrested for lying to the police in the past couple years !
He has lost all credibility . I really would like to see pictures of these
two thugs , everyone has a camera today ! We only see innocent looking
boys .
Carl
George Bush lied. Bill Clinton lied. But man-o-man you just can't trust some nappy headed negro to tell the truth. White people should just shut up already.
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The issues are so much larger than the details of this specific incident and the sad part is most people are not taking the long view or applying what history has taught us .
Since 9-11 local police departments have been raking funds for military style equipment and law enforcement has become a for profit business for SOME city's with quotas to fill and they have made some citys a military zone with soldiers instead of peace keepers .
Until we address social inequality, racism and tackle gun control not much is going to change .
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towns don't need tanks. when you militarize the civil police force, they go to war. we are then the enemy.
local swat police recently executed a no knock warrant, based on a tip from an arrestee. busted in a door, tossed in a flash bang. right into a crib. that child had a gaping hole in his chest, burned face and body, and was left in a coma. target of the warrant was not there (no longer even lived there) and when found had a misdemeanor weight of marijuana on his person. not the piles of meth police were hoping for.
country officials have declined to pay for the childs medical expenses, saying that would be against the law.
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John Olivers take on the police in Ferguson..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A
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I made the questionable decision to watch the Kajieme Powell video the other day, not really thinking that I maybe didn't want to see this killing.
But having seen it, it was clear the man was a couple yards away (not within 3 feet) and a nut case, and I can't figure out why the 2 cops (2!) couldn't have tried a taser.
They arrived, got out of he car with their guns out, evaluated the situation, and shot him dead -- all that within 20 or 23 seconds.
Hindsight isn't helpful but one wonders why one didn't get out of the car with a taser ready, as well.. Powell was stumbling pretty slowly, and obviously loopy.
None of the people witnessing the whole thing seemed particularly threatened. They were keeping their distance but there was NOT a vibe of huge danger.
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Mecch, It is possible they wasn't equipped with tazers.. many departments don't assign them out to all officers.. But its a good question
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Confirmed to be carrying tazers.
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poor guy
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One of the regrettable reasons I shouldn't have seen the video is that someone like me doesn't have the knowledge to evaluate what is just and unjust use of deadly force.
Ultimately its the review boards, and/or any jury to figure this stuff out.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/22/3474562/this-police-shooting-caught-on-tape-shocked-the-nation-but-experts-say-it-was-justified/
Videotaped Police Shooting Shocked The Nation, But These Experts Say It Was Justified
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The police are justified in meeting deadly force with deadly force.. Although the guy was obviously not in his right mind, he did have a weapon and he was approaching them.. Three feet is much too close to allow someone with a knife to approach an officer.. It could have been handled differently but that really depends on the training these officers received and what is there policy on these situations.. Being a cop is not an easy job and they try to make it home in one piece.. those guys will have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives.. Its a shame the guy was killed.
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With two officers there, I don't understand why one couldn't have used his taser, while the other was prepared to shoot, if the taser didn't work. It would be different, if the man had a gun.
I also don't understand cuffing a dead man, instead of starting CPR.
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Im am not defending anyone because all the facts have not come out as of yet ... The cops pull up and have no way of knowing what kind of weapon the guy had . If I were a police officer I would not go into a situation like this with a taser drawn instead of a gun . The incident unfolded in 23 seconds and there was no time for discussion of a back up plan . Sadly this is a case of a mentally ill person who brought a knife to gun fight .
I wonder how many more cases like these is it going to take to get a meaningful discussion going on how first responders should handle these situations and I also wonder how many police officers will be killed because they are afraid to defend themselves. I have known a few police officers that were good cops and I know how some of them had allot of anxiety every day due to the high crime areas they were assigned to police . I have a first cousin who is a police chief in a small town and in the last year he had to shoot and kill a man he stopped when the guy shot at him through the back window of his car when he was approaching the vehicle.
There have been many news reports in the last few years where family members have called the police because a family member was having a psychotic episode only to have their family member shot and killed and in many of these situations it was pretty clear the police could have retreated and waited the situation out instead of using deadly force .
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Im am not defending anyone because all the facts have not come out as of yet ... The cops pull up and have no way of knowing what kind of weapon the guy had . If I were a police officer I would not go into a situation like this with a taser drawn instead of a gun . The incident unfolded in 23 seconds and there was no time for discussion of a back up plan . Sadly this is a case of a mentally ill person who brought a knife to gun fight .
I wonder how many more cases like these is it going to take to get a meaningful discussion going on how first responders should handle these situations and I also wonder how many police officers will be killed because they are afraid to defend themselves. I have known a few police officers that were good cops and I know how some of them had allot of anxiety every day due to the high crime areas they were assigned to police . I have a first cousin who is a police chief in a small town and in the last year he had to shoot and kill a man he stopped when the guy shot at him through the back window of his car when he was approaching the vehicle.
Exactly -- it is very easy to use hindsight and say someone should have done "this" or "that", but in the moment, the talking heads are NOT there. I come from a family of cops - dad retired as a Police Commander in my home town, my older brother was a cop for 13 yrs, my step-brother is in his 20-something year as a cop.
Are there bad cops -- sure, just like in any profession.
There have been many news reports in the last few years where family members have called the police because a family member was having a psychotic episode only to have their family member shot and killed and in many of these situations it was pretty clear the police could have retreated and waited the situation out instead of using deadly force .
Yes -- until the suspect hurts/kills someone else (which can take a split-second) -- then it's all -- "why did the cops stand there and do nothing".
I would NEVER want to be a cop - - they are often damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Mike
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Ugh ... not sure if I am comfortable with bocker and I agreeing on something but since I'm a glass half full guy I will say its about damn time LOL .
We all know it, the issues that lead to many of these story's are layer upon layer of economic and social issues and unless those issues are addressed the tazer vs gun debate is worth having but is a band-aid solution at best .
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Open carry, wrong color.
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/hartmann-how-long-texas-changes-open-carry
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Ugh ... not sure if I am comfortable with bocker and I agreeing on something but since I'm a glass half full guy I will say its about damn time LOL .
The long range forecast for hell -- Frozen & continued cold.. ;) ;D
Actually, we've agreed on things before -- take Sid, for example, we both agree he's a great (and lucky) guy.....
Hugs,
M
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The long range forecast for hell -- Frozen & continued cold.. ;) ;D
Actually, we've agreed on things before -- take Sid, for example, we both agree he's a great (and lucky) guy.....
Hugs,
M
I'm happy you see the humor in my comment . Sid is a very sweet man so if you believe in you get what you deserve in life you both have been lucky men indeed .
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Race will continue to be an issue in society and police. In just recent weeks, we've seen a black man choked to death, over apparently selling cigs. We saw a mentally ill, black grandmother beaten over and over again in the face.
There is obviously a race element, as well as some bad officers, who would likely do the same things to white suspects. And, there are many justified officers, where they had to make a quick decision. I recently saw a video (I have tried to find it), where a white man was threatening officers in a parking lot. He was very bold and could have opened fire at any time. Instead of shooting the man, police spent a long time trying to reason with him. He eventually was arrested. I have seen many videos of a white person being reasoned with. So, I can see why blacks and others would wonder why those police went way out of their way not to shoot, when he was a real threat. I do think there is a bias, whether it is subconscious or not. Perhaps they just have better training.
Here is something I found about odds of being shot, depending on being white or black:
"Indeed, although police violence to a certain degree does cut across racial and demographic lines, the reality is, if you are black you are far more likely die at the hands of a police officer than you would if you are white. A 2007 investigation by ColorLines and the Chicago Reporter found for example that in ten major cities, there was a disproportionately high number of African-Americans among police shooting victims, particularly in New York, San Diego, and Las Vegas.
An investigation of the NAACP into police shootings in Oakland, California, found that out of 45 officer-involved shootings in the city between 2004 and 2008, 37 of those shot were black and none were white. Although one-third of the shootings resulted in fatalities and despite the fact that weapons were not found in 40 percent of cases, no officers were ever brought up on criminal charges."
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/22/is-police-brutality-color-blind/
Modified:
I forgot to add this video of an innocent black man getting pepper sprayed. A white guy starts a fight, but it is the black guy, who gets pepper sprayed. Many will say the officers may just not have known who the aggressor was. Was there racial bias, by assuming the black man was the suspect? I don't know, but these things add up.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/13/1321345/-White-guy-starts-fight-black-guy-gets-pepper-sprayed
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Cash raised for Mo. cop surpasses Brown donations
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/23/support-darren-wilson-rally/14495459/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/23/support-darren-wilson-rally/14495459/)
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Jon Stewart is back from vacation and I thought he did a good job discussing the whole situation. I did not know Ferguson police had beaten an innocent black man and then charged him for cleaning the blood off their uniforms.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/jon-stewart-ferguson_n_5720622.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063
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In the midst of all this mess, this study was reported recently:
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/08/study-police-body-cams-reduce-use-of-force-claims-by-up-to-88-percent-106226.html
I find it curious given the video evidence of police killing black men that we see.
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Peel back all of the layers of rhetoric and all you have here is:
Man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot.
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"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)
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Peel back all of the layers of rhetoric and all you have here is:
Man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot.
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"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)
Are the layers peeled back yet ? ... no, they have not been and we still do not know all the details . Whether some people like it or not what went on there that day and afterwards became much more than something as simple as man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot.
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I think it is interesting the use of the word "robbed." We usually hear that, when someone holds up a bank or store and demands cash. When someone steals something, we usually hear the word, "shoplifted." I've seen many stories of white folks shoplifting and even scuffling with a cashier or security person, who is trying to take away the beer, soda, or candy bar, or detain them for the police to be called. But, they called it shoplifting. Interesting, I think.
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1) Store management's lawyers denied that Mike Brown stole anything.
2) Previous to above 1) - there was a police report filed THAT DAY about a strong-armed robbery. So, who gave that info to the police? Seems like with the brouhaha that followed the shooting death, store management backtracked - simply does not want to be a partner to this mess.
3) If you shoplift and then strong arm someone to get away with it, then it is robbery. That's the law. Good point however, how this is or isn't charged to different ethnicities.
Ted you seem to speak with anecdotal evidence - no stats.
This story is far from simple.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ98z4__H-g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ98z4__H-g)
all i'm saying, i've never been taken down by cop just walking down the street, no
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are those crimes capital offenses? should police mete out the ultimate "justice" by killing people in the streets without a trial?
While all the past offenses might be some sort of evidence in a court of law, these policemen made their judgement to shoot NOT based on that information.
and on the other hand, do you see any connections between blacks, crime, poverty, lack of education, the militarization of police forces, and police overreach (brutality)?
REALLY !
We ARE talking about Missouri here ! :o
BLACK has little to do with this issue of Police Brutality and killing in this state .
Most of the MURDERERS I have met are WHITE , I know way too many people that killed people .
Never in my wildest dreams would I have ever imagined that I would live in such a place that
for the most part OVER LOOKS MURDER !
I was at the V. A. the other morning , the discussion was that SIX MEN HAD BEEN KILLED LAST WEEK
, all in different parts of Saint Louis County !!!!
Non of this has been on the local news ? Maybe they are trying to quell the riots that have only slowed but not stopped .
As for color I believe the hate crimes in Memphis have been white peoples , but I'm sure that's another thread ?
As for Zach's comment , I have been hand-cuffed and jerked around by over zealous cops !
For no reason other than being in place a cop thought I should not have been . Held for two hours , then released to go about my business .
I stated before show me the REAL THUG PICTURES ! Even the news admits he had a long rap sheet ,
that only two weeks before was sealed forever !
It is hard for me to over look the man STRONG ARMING A SMALL PERSON to steal cigs !
The facts speak for them selves .
Carl
P.s. I was just thinking this morning ; no matter how inconvenient living 130 miles south of the city,
it's so much easier than dealing with problems that will never go away .
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Peel back all of the layers of rhetoric and all you have here is:
Man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot.
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"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)
I could not agree more !
That should of been the end of the story :)
Carl
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CNN aired video, taken in real time, of two contractors witnessing what happened. The men are upset and saying Brown had his hands up, which backs up other witnesses. I think they will be key in the investigation.
Even if there was a scuffle, which to my knowledge has not even been confirmed, you cannot use deadly force, because your ego was hurt and especially when someone is surrendering. The men say there was at least one shot, when Brown's back was turned.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_t1