Author Topic: The Banning of Moffie65 (Read 23901 times)

Joe K · « **on:** October 23, 2007, 07:51:43 pm »

I was stunned to just learn that Tim (Moffie65) has been permanently banned from this site, yet I can find no offense he committed, at least in the forums, that would require such a drastic action. This forum has sure changed and sadly, not for the better.

thunter34 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 23, 2007, 07:56:19 pm »

It appears that his blog is now gone as well.

David_CA · « **Reply #2 on:** October 23, 2007, 08:40:19 pm »

Where / how did you learn he'd been banned? All I could find is that he had a 30 day time out.

David

Joe K · « **Reply #3 on:** October 23, 2007, 09:13:56 pm »

Tim sent me an email with exchanges between him and management and they changed his TO from a 30-day to permanent. I won't go into the gory details, suffice it to say he deserved much better, but that was the old AIDSmeds.com, not the new commercial endeavor. People are getting rich off this site, while walking over those people who started and built this forum from its inception. So sad and now I expect that I will be banned as well, even though I only post about twice a year.

AlanBama · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2007, 09:48:17 pm »

This is very sad news to me. I know nothing of the 'behind the scenes' interactions regarding all this, but I do know that I love Tim very much. He has helped a tremendous number of people here, including me -- too many times to count.

Alan

ademas · « **Reply #5 on:** October 23, 2007, 09:49:31 pm »

Very sad news, indeed.

Bucko · « **Reply #6 on:** October 23, 2007, 10:00:16 pm »

I remember when i first joined the old forum, Tim would welcome new members with a dozen roses. He seemed like the mayor around here.

He is a valued contributor to The Spin Cycle. Anything he posts there will be announced, for sure. Hopefully he's saved his old AM blog posts for his own records if not to reprint on our blog.

I owe him an e-mail, but should probably just phone him.

leatherman · « **Reply #7 on:** October 23, 2007, 10:44:55 pm »

the first PM I ever received here was from Moffie - telling me it was okay that I wasn't "optimistic"; and that it didn't mean that I was "pessimistic". I will miss his "realistic" entries in these forums.

mikie

Queen Tokelove · « **Reply #8 on:** October 23, 2007, 10:48:07 pm »

Well isn't this a turn of events? I was saddened to learn that he had gotten a 30 day TO and now he is gone forever? I am truly sadden by this and must ask if this was even called for? I can not tell Peter how to run his site but Moffie will truly be missed. What a fucked up day indeed......

fearless · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2007, 10:57:35 pm »

Sorry moderators, but that sucks.

David_CA · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2007, 11:05:53 pm »

Tim was always very respectful towards me and offered a lot of support, especially early on after my diagnosis. He kind of 'got me thinking' about positive changes I needed to make since finding out about HIV. I will miss him, but I'm not going to say that he didn't push the limits of what one can expect to get away with and not be T/O'ed, warned, etc. He was / is very outspoken. I tend to be the same way, but very much 'mind my manners' here on the forums. I'd hate for any of us to draw too many conclusions without knowing what went on in private between him and the mods. I will say that I'm going to miss him posting here. He's one of those whose post I either enjoyed and agreed, or just thought he was way out there. Either way, his posts got me thinking, and that is good. Tim, take care; I know many of us will miss you.

David

Jerry71 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:18:39 am »

It is a down right shame what has happened to the forums here. I can remember a time when we all came on and greeted everyone that was new and would welcome to a great forum family, but here lately this place has gotten so strict.

This is a place where we come and talk about our problems and try to get useful information. It just seems like damn if you do and damn if you don't there are so many on here just sitting back on the sidelines just watching to see who is the next one to get the boot. I for one am not a top poster. I come in and read what I can and move on and mind my own business, but when I see that a fourm member that has given so much of his time here on the forums get the TO it just amazes me. WHY?

Good luck and take care Tim you will be missed.

joemutt · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:20:51 am »

That's devastating.
I hope we get some feedback from the moderators.
Or is it

?

sdcabincrew74 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:26:27 am »

Someone needs to ban the fucking assine moderators around here. FUCK WADS!

northernguy · « **Reply #14 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:32:54 am »

Hmm, perhaps it might have something to do with this in his last post:

"This last post of yours tells me more than the first post above, and if you think the future is bright for people living with HIV, you are stupider than any of us could imagine."

I know this won't be a popular viewpoint, but can you imagine the effect that statement has on someone's who's just been diagnosed? That said, I'll miss Tim's advice to those wrestling with particular issues that he had dealt with over his long experience with this damn virus.

scud44 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:37:16 am »

The moderators seem surprisingly quiet today!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wonder why???

thunter34 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:37:32 am »

Quote from: sdcabincrew74 on October 24, 2007, 12:26:27 am

Someone needs to ban the fucking assine moderators around here. FUCK WADS!

Hold up. I know emotions are running high right now, but I have to take exception to that statement. That's a broad sting against a whole group of people that work pretty hard at this here - and that I quite like. And I hate making a post like this because it reads all ass-kissy, but it's not. I mean it. I am not at all happy with this situation either, but I'm not willing to let that one get slung across the board from Andy to Jan. Reconsider that statement, please...and accept that we don't have the whole story.

Peter Staley · « **Reply #17 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:42:29 am »

Quote from: sdcabincrew74 on October 24, 2007, 12:26:27 am

Someone needs to ban the fucking assine moderators around here. FUCK WADS!

SD -- consider yourself warned. We don't tolerate members abusing other members, or the mods, in this way.

Peter

Queen Tokelove · « **Reply #18 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:42:56 am »

I have only been a part of the "new" forums for just a year so I am clueless to what the old forums was like. I wouldn't count on getting a blow by blow of what went down between Moffie and the management but I still have to say was it worth Moffie getting kicked out forever?

I know the forums has its rules but damn. I thought everyone was entitled to their opinions and like assholes everybody has one. I am really at a loss of what to say about this other than it is really messed up. Do we all have to walk on eggshells now? And if Moffie has gotten the boot, I can see w/o calling out any names who will be the next ones to go.....It is truly a sad day for me....Today Moffie...Tomorrow me or someone else I hold dear...*sighs in disgust*

leatherman · « **Reply #19 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:43:57 am »

--mikie
(who doesn't know the "whole" situation but thinks it would have benefited the mods to have been a bit more proactive with a statement about this issue. Nobody would probably notice if I got banned

but Moffie has quite a reputation)

Jerry71 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:48:53 am »

I think there should be a vote from the forum members here but we have no say what so ever on anything but just to come in and contribute our time and energy each time we sign on to this site. It has just gotten pretty bad here lately.

anniebc · « **Reply #21 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:49:41 am »

Quote

Someone needs to ban the fucking assine moderators around here. FUCK WADS!

Nice choice of words there..and you wonder why people get warnings a TO's given to them...and just for the record don't ever call me (or anyone one else) a

Quote

FUCK WAD

again.

Quote

The moderators seem surprisingly quiet today!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wonder why???

Have you ever entertained the thought that we have a life outside of the forums...I know I have.

Jan

Jody · « **Reply #22 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:54:25 am »

I also received an e-mail from Tim (Moffie) and learned of his permanent ban. I understand that certain rules and regulations for keeping the peace around here are deemed necessary by the folks who have worked hard to keep this great online forum around for all of us to gain love, support and much info from each other for free. Also I might remind you that the folks who brought us Aidsmeds and have worked hard to maintain it have been in the trenches in the 80's and 90's and were arrested and inconvenienced to say the least to ensure that so many of us today have the meds as well as the ability to get financial help to get the meds that would be beyond the reach of 99% of us, including myself.

That being said I was going to let things cool off a bit and personally was going to ask the moderators for an "Auld Lang Syne" sort of forgiveness, not just for Tim but also for Bailey (Dingo Boi) and maybe even a few others who have added so much love and support over the last several years.

It is a shame that many old timers such as Jonathan (jk), Joe (Killfoile), Tim, Bailey, Jim (fiskernish) and others do not or cannot post anymore, or certainly not as often. Again, I cannot tell good folks how to run their website but a certain strictness has taken hold...We are not a school or summer camp and letting the fur fly a bit has always been a great trademark of this site that was often left on it's own to cool off and move on to the next topic...We kind of policed ourselves if you will with great passion, but in most cases much respect. Whether that is possible with the growth that has taken place here may not be an issue I am intelligent enought to speak on.

To correlate it to baseball, nowadays when a batter is hit by a pitch, automatically the rules state that both teams are warned by the umpires and there is no retaliation allowed or ejections and stiff fines ensue...In the past the players handled it on their own and the brawls we see today did not take place as a batter would not dare charge the mound to attack a pitcher if he were hit by a pitch as all pitchers in the league would find out and that man would be a sitting duck for all pitchers. In other words, as some of the old timers complain, the game has changed but with players not allowed to take care of their teammates, more fighting resulted. I understand a website is not a sporting event, but the correlation is one that came to mind.

So I would hope we could at least somewhat police ourselves, with only truly flagrant violaters being banned such as Val who really crossed the line with downright insidious racial and religious comments that were more than insensitive, they did not just criticize rationally, they stung and really hurt. Locking topics as moderators deem necessary is fine, a time-out I can see, but a ban is forever and some folks may not come back even if asked and that hurts them and us all.

I would hope that perhaps by year's end we could see some of our friends asked to return to a place they have contributed so much to.

With due respect for all.......................

Jody

Queen Tokelove · « **Reply #23 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:57:33 am »

I have to agree with Thunter Bunny and say that being ignorant is not going to make things any better. Calling someone a fuckwad is just going to get your ass canned just as fast. And I agree with you too Jerry, we the forum members will not be allowed to vote Moffie back in. But I do wish Peter would give us a "formal" statement of some kind.

joemutt · « **Reply #24 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:59:04 am »

I appreciate you have a life outside Annie, and I also appreciate your work here
but I think it would be more beneficial to address the thread's real issue than to concentrate on the (predictably) emotional outbursts of the members.

Oceanbeach · « **Reply #25 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:07:31 am »

Moffie was one of the first to welcome me to the forums. He had lived on the Russian River in the past and welcomed me for being an Activist on the River and offered me a lot of support through the RWCA Reauthorization issue. I have read his blog more than anyone elses because of the signifigance of the pandemic in the early years here in my county I will miss him. Have the best day
Michael.

Jerry71 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:08:28 am »

Time outs and permant bands are what this site is set on now back in the old forums there were never a timeout given or a permant band on any member if someone said something to you back then tuff shit you just took your medicine and reported it to a moderator and enough said. Now the least little thing said on here you get a slap in the face and get banned. Bailey was banned but still has a blog on the site. To me If I or anyone else had a blog on this site and I was banned I would take my blog off this site. So is there anyway that you Moderators can come up with a better form of punishment that what you have installed here lately on this site. 7day is fine 30 day should be used if someone gets so irrate and cusses everyone out. But a ban from a web site as this is just plain dumb.

David_CA · « **Reply #27 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:13:10 am »

Jerry, maybe something short of permanent, maybe like a 90 day 'ban', then a semi probationary period. I know of many other members who've been downright mean at times, but they were going through some major shit then, too. Since it's passed, they seem, for the most part, back to normal. Maybe a permanent ban should be an option for those whose sole motivation is creating chaos in the forums.

David

anniebc · « **Reply #28 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:35:11 am »

Hi Joe

I appreciate your concerns but I'm not authorised to speak on behave of all the Moderators, I can only voice my opinions of the posts that have been written so far.

Queenie...You are absolutely right everyone is entitled to their opinion, but how would you feel if every time you voiced your opinion on how you were dealing with your HIV/Depression etc, etc (good or bad) someone came in and tor strips off you and abused you with childish name calling..honestly, how would you feel...and who would you call on to stop the abuse?

Jerry..I remember the old forums well, I joined them in 2003, I also remember when a simple warning or a gentle slap on the wrist to those who became abusive actually worked..why? because they listened...so I have to ask, why are some of them not listening now?.

Jan
(who has used her last hug up for the day.*sigh*)

joemutt · « **Reply #29 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:43:45 am »

In my opinion it's either moderate or personal opinion.
I write this without any animosity.

northernguy · « **Reply #30 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:51:50 am »

I think the mods do a great job. If people resort to name calling or insulting other members, is that acceptable? Where would it end? I'm on other (non-HIV) forums where criticizing the mods, or even a thread like this, would not even be allowed. Plus, last time I checked, none of us have to pay a cent to use this site.

joemutt · « **Reply #31 on:** October 24, 2007, 02:02:36 am »

It's not a case of either/or. I'm perfectly happy with the moderating here in general and
when there are concerns, I just ask clarification, I think that's legitimate too.
. That this is a free site, but also a money making enterprise btw, is a moot point.
And now I go to have lunch and enjoy the sun in Bangkok.

MOONLIGHT1114 · « **Reply #32 on:** October 24, 2007, 02:09:10 am »

I can't believe that Moffie is banned but I don't have the entire story yet, either. Its people like him that have "been through the trenches" as one said, and can make a difference with wisdom gained over the years.

Somehow, I don't think that this is over, and that perhaps Moffie will be invited back. I would think that no matter what words were exchanged, everyone would understand that we all get stressed out. This virus can play havoc with our minds, good days, bad days, uncertainty.

One thing I am certain of, I want Moffie back here, even if its probationary.

~ Cindy

poz1970 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 24, 2007, 02:14:23 am »

The moderators have a very tough job, maintaining the 'peace' on an online community for people affected and infected.

Permanent banning of course, is the final option that a moderator has, and I doubt that its a decision that is made lightly (and I don't doubt that it hurts the moderators to have to use that final option). In the end, this is an online community, and they are the moderators, its their job to maintain the peace, we don't have to agree with all their decisions, but we have to support them making those difficult decisions. These are our peers, people in the same situation as ourselves. They don't need abuse for doing their thankless job.

I don't know why he was banned, I have to assume that he'd been warned/asked to stop.

Be happy that it can be discussed, some online communities just censor all conversation regarding moderator decisions.

Imagine yourself in their shoes, how would you handle someone that abused people regularly and refused to stop?!? doesn't really leave many options.

J

Robert · « **Reply #34 on:** October 24, 2007, 02:34:36 am »

Some of us who have HIV/AIDS,in addition to having commpromised immune systems, have had our self-esteem knocked down a peg or two. There are many, many things I am no longer capable of doing and that often gives me pause as to my worthiness as a human being. I have so many doubts about myself it isn't funny. Depression also now plays a big part in my life. So when someone comes on here and and says I'm stupider than he thought, or if I don't agree with what he says then I can kiss his "fine" ass, or that his post is not open to "criticizm nor discussion", well, I don't need that.

robert

manchesteruk · « **Reply #35 on:** October 24, 2007, 03:06:24 am »

I can't believe Tim has been banned he's contributed so much here. Very sad indeed.....

tendai · « **Reply #36 on:** October 24, 2007, 03:58:30 am »

i'll miss him too

Dragonette · « **Reply #37 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:16:06 am »

How awful, he was one of the first people to welcome me here and gave so much. This sucks.

carousel · « **Reply #38 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:34:44 am »

We all know that this decision was not taken lightly and will affect Tim and the many members who know and love him. But what about the people who have been at the other end of his opinions. Is it only me who has winced at some of the more acerbic posts?

People get banned for what they say on this forum. We know that there are people fighting to deal with the ravages of this virus and they speak from their own experience, difficult, painful and sometimes with bluntness. But HIV affects us all in different ways, whether that it from naivety or not, but one of the joys of this site is the many different lives, views and experiences that people bring to this site.

I hate the banning of members, but I support the moderators when they make these difficult decisions.

Every member has the chance to heed the warnings.

Ann · « **Reply #39 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:36:29 am »

Quote from: killfoile on October 23, 2007, 07:51:43 pm

I was stunned to just learn that Tim (Moffie65) has been permanently banned from this site, yet I can find no offense he committed, at least in the forums, that would require such a drastic action. This forum has sure changed and sadly, not for the better.

Joe,

Tim wasn't banned permanently for what he did in the forum - he was banned because he pulled his own blog, for the second time in his membership, and threatened Peter with legal action concerning his blog.

We have warned, begged and pleaded with Tim - for years now - to not post in anger. He's done it again and again and again. Just because he's a well-loved member of the forum doesn't give him carte blanche to use inflammatory and insulting language towards members he disagrees with.

Quote from: killfoile on October 23, 2007, 09:13:56 pm

Tim sent me an email with exchanges between him and management and they changed his TO from a 30-day to permanent. I won't go into the gory details, suffice it to say he deserved much better, but that was the old AIDSmeds.com, not the new commercial endeavor. People are getting rich off this site, while walking over those people who started and built this forum from its inception. So sad and now I expect that I will be banned as well, even though I only post about twice a year.

Please tell me who is getting rich off this site - maybe I can get them to front me a loan.

Quote from: Jerry71 on October 24, 2007, 12:18:39 am

It is a down right shame what has happened to the forums here. I can remember a time when we all came on and greeted everyone that was new and would welcome to a great forum family, but here lately this place has gotten so strict.

This is a place where we come and talk about our problems and try to get useful information. It just seems like damn if you do and damn if you don't there are so many on here just sitting back on the sidelines just watching to see who is the next one to get the boot. I for one am not a top poster. I come in and read what I can and move on and mind my own business, but when I see that a fourm member that has given so much of his time here on the forums get the TO it just amazes me. WHY?

Good luck and take care Tim you will be missed.

Jerry,

Just recently you sent me several PMs saying how much you appreciated the fact that we weren't letting people get away with flaming so much any more. Make up your mind. "It just seems like damn if you do and damn if you don't..." Yeah, tell me about it.

Quote from: sdcabincrew74 on October 24, 2007, 12:26:27 am

Someone needs to ban the fucking assine moderators around here. FUCK WADS!

SD,

You're lucky Jan and Peter got to you first. I would have given you a Time Out, no warnings necessary.

Quote from: scud44 on October 24, 2007, 12:37:16 am

The moderators seem surprisingly quiet today!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wonder why???

Scud,

Gee, I spend between eight and twelve hours a day most days on this site. I guess I'll have to learn to not sleep, just to please you. Sheesh.

Quote from: Queen Akasha on October 24, 2007, 12:42:56 am

I have only been a part of the "new" forums for just a year so I am clueless to what the old forums was like. I wouldn't count on getting a blow by blow of what went down between Moffie and the management but I still have to say was it worth Moffie getting kicked out forever?

I know the forums has its rules but damn. I thought everyone was entitled to their opinions and like assholes everybody has one. I am really at a loss of what to say about this other than it is really messed up. Do we all have to walk on eggshells now? And if Moffie has gotten the boot, I can see w/o calling out any names who will be the next ones to go.....It is truly a sad day for me....Today Moffie...Tomorrow me or someone else I hold dear...*sighs in disgust*

Queen,

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Tim was NOT Timed Out for his viewpoint, he was TOd because of the way HE CHOSE to put that viewpoint across. He was banned for what he did in response to his TO.

Quote from: Jerry71 on October 24, 2007, 12:48:53 am

I think there should be a vote from the forum members here but we have no say what so ever on anything but just to come in and contribute our time and energy each time we sign on to this site. It has just gotten pretty bad here lately.

If you think we're going to ask for a vote every time we need to TO someone, well, guess again. You don't have to come to this site, Jerry, you can always go create your own and see how easy you think it is to moderate a bunch of people who are constantly trying to wound each other with words.

Quote from: Jody on October 24, 2007, 12:54:25 am

//snip//

That being said I was going to let things cool off a bit and personally was going to ask the moderators for an "Auld Lang Syne" sort of forgiveness, not just for Tim but also for Bailey (Dingo Boi) and maybe even a few others who have added so much love and support over the last several years.

//snip//

With due respect for all.......................

Jody

Jody,

That may have been an option until Joe decided to wade in and make a public issue of it. You've got no chance now.

We're all sorry it had to come to this.

Ann

edfu · « **Reply #40 on:** October 24, 2007, 05:15:19 am »

This is horribly, horribly tragic.

DanielMark · « **Reply #41 on:** October 24, 2007, 05:36:09 am »

Quote from: northernguy on October 24, 2007, 01:51:50 am

I think the mods do a great job. If people resort to name calling or insulting other members, is that acceptable? Where would it end? I'm on other (non-HIV) forums where criticizing the mods, or even a thread like this, would not even be allowed. Plus, last time I checked, none of us have to pay a cent to use this site.

I was thinking the same thing Northernguy, and the posting guidelines are quite clear.

Daniel

Cliff · « **Reply #42 on:** October 24, 2007, 05:44:36 am »

Quote from: carousel on October 24, 2007, 04:34:44 am

Is it only me who has winced at some of the more acerbic posts?

No, it's not just you.

We are given free choice in how we act in the forum (and via PM's activity with other members/moderators). That we are ALL held accountable for the consequences of our actions (choices), is just a fact of life. It's a shame things have ended up this way (as it is for all bannings). But it's unfair to lash out at the moderators when popular members are banned. Popularity shouldn't dictate whether we are subject to the rules of participation.

Cliff

Peter Staley · « **Reply #43 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:23:29 am »

Hey gang:

I'm in Madrid right now to do online coverage of the European AIDS Conference. It's a little nuts here, so I won't be in the forums much for the next week.

This banning really saddens me as well, but we really felt we had no choice. It was never what Moffie sad that got him into trouble, it was how he said it. In the end, he really didn't seem to care how hard it is for our mods to keep the discourse in these forums at a somewhat civil level. If we continued to let this slide, then there would be just as many folks blaming us for playing favorites.

His banning resulted because of actions and emails between Moffie and me immediately after he was given the 30 day TO. But I want to be very clear about something. The banning was almost beside the point. Moffie made it very clear he wanted nothing further to do with AIDSmeds.com, and his subsequent campaign via email with some members to paint this banning as a unilateral action on our part is simply not true. As far as I'm concerned, it was a mutual decision.

As for Moffie's blog, that was completely his choice, and he didn't even ask us first -- he just cleaned it out. This happened before he was banned. I had really hoped he would continue blogging, just as Bailey has.

For me personally, Monday was a very dark day for these forums. It's all very sad, but I stand by the hard decisions we made 100%. Folks are making this sound like a new pattern of overly aggressive bannings. The reality is that in all the years of these forums, we've only banned two long-term members -- just two. We don't make these decisions lightly. One of the two has shown a great deal of maturity in taking some ownership of his responsibility for what happened. The other, sadly, will likely never do the same.

Peter

scud44 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:48:00 am »

The only reason for my previous comment Ann, was that no previous comments had been received from Moderators on what was a sensitive subject.
To your credit, apart from Peter who made a well timed comment about an unneccesary posting, you were the first to post a timely comment.
I was not intending to cast an aspersion that you weren't working hard, just that maybe earlier comments could have been appropriate to forestall some nastiness
I apologise Ann, if you have been offended

Regards
Scud

LatinAlexander · « **Reply #45 on:** October 24, 2007, 07:03:25 am »

Very sad news indeed.

Moffie : THANK YOU for your time and experience. You will be missed

Alex

J.R.E. · « **Reply #46 on:** October 24, 2007, 07:30:51 am »

Quote from: Jody on October 24, 2007, 12:54:25 am

That being said I was going to let things cool off a bit and personally was going to ask the moderators for an "Auld Lang Syne" sort of forgiveness, not just for Tim but also for Bailey (Dingo Boi) and maybe even a few others who have added so much love and support over the last several years.

Here, Here !! I am not happy alll with Tim's Banning, and I was not happy at all with Baileys banning.

Ray

Ann · « **Reply #47 on:** October 24, 2007, 07:51:54 am »

Quote from: J.R.E. on October 24, 2007, 07:30:51 am

Here, Here !! I am not happy alll with Tim's Banning, and I was not happy at all with Baileys banning.

Ray

Ray,

We're not happy with banning people either - but either we enforce rules here or we let chaos reign. It's not like they weren't repeatedly warned, over a period of years. Sometimes there comes a point when enough is enough.

Ann

Teresa · « **Reply #48 on:** October 24, 2007, 07:59:37 am »

Tim will be missed, that's for sure!

I for one don't know what I would have done without Tims words of wisdom and encouragement when we found out hubby has AIDS. He has been there many times for me and thank God he was! I feel awful that people newly diagnosed will never be able to read his words again here at the forums. He told it like it is for him living 20+ years with this virus. Sure not everyone will experience what he has gone through, but I know what CAN happen to hubby and maybe just maybe it will help him in the long run.

I too got the email from Tim and was shocked and sadden by his ban.

Teresa

keyite · « **Reply #49 on:** October 24, 2007, 08:10:11 am »

I'll certainly miss Moffie - he had a lot to offer and offered it gladly.

That said, I support the decision made. For forums on this scale to have any chance of working at all, particularly when most people never actually meet each other face-to-face, there's got to be rules - for rules to have any point at all they must be enforced fairly and without favour.

If anything I think the moderators on this site are exceptionally restrained and patient when dealing with transgressors, giving them ample opportunity to heed warnings. I can't recall ever seeing a TO or ban that I felt wasn't justified given the person's actions. Be glad they volunteer their time or there would be no forums.

newbernswiss · « **Reply #50 on:** October 24, 2007, 09:06:55 am »

I personally dislike anyone having to be banned from our forum, $:-\$ BUT there are guidelines regarding how we must interact with each other. If the Administrators and Moderators just turned their heads this forum would be an undesirable place to get good info about living with HIV. I can't begin to imagine how the language would change if we were allowed to say whatever, Not to mention the pic's that would be posted. Call me a butt kisser or whatever, I've had a few post deleted from these forms myself by the moderators so I know what it feels like to have your hand slapped. Did I get pissed, NO. I try to keep my language and pic's at an acceptable, tolerate level. We may all that the same reasons (HIV) for being here, but we all don't share the same social graces.

So while friends come and go, HIV is forever. Lets respect each others opinions and treat each other as the survivors we are. The enemy is HIV, not other Aids.com Forum members, administrators, or moderators.

Iggy · « **Reply #51 on:** October 24, 2007, 09:23:27 am »

When I saw this thread title and first couple of posts I thought it was a mistaken assumption about Tim's recent time out. It is disheartening to find that the subject line is not in error.

There has been some talk on this thread about how warm Moffie was and how he served as a guide for so many who benefited greatly from his intelligence, experience and compassion. There has also been some talk about Moffie being somewhat cantankerous in his approach and unable to control his anger which often resulted in feelings of isolation by those who were the subject of his focus.

Both takes are 100% correct.

What is not correct nor true is what some people have suggested (here and elsewhere) the motivations behind his postings. Not once have I seen Moffie "go after" anyone, but I certainly did see him respond to those who challenged his views or who tried to minimize the reality of this epidemic.

What Tim represented to these forums was a much needed foil to those who were as adamant and headstrong on the minimal and dismissive view of the consequences and ramifications on being positive as he was on the need for us all to not go silently into that good night -whether through giving up in despair or pretending all can be handled with a positive outlook. Unfortunately many of those who Moffie countered was simply more agile at being passive aggressive and baiting and were often successful in enraging the man enough to appear to be the victim of a big mean Moffie picking on them.

Unfortunately what makes an activist a success is a not usually compatible with the idea that everyone has a valid and intelligent position on the issue. Sometimes it takes an activist to stop the nods to insanity that is brought by arrogant ignorance, and Tim was a person who cared more for the message then the fragility of the feelings of those who needed to hear that message. The problem here is that this is not primarily a place of activism, but of support, and unfortunately most people do not include confrontation or harsh reality in their definition of support. I do not say this as a support or opposition to his delivery or this site, simply an observation - an observation I might add that is based on personal experience as highlighted in my own bio.

Yet with all of this comes a certain acceptance that Tim is no child and is responsible for his own decisions. If he has decided to pull his blog, then the decision is his as is the consequences. The same goes for any correspondence between him and this site owners and moderators, and the present outcome.

I am very saddened by this, and feel that it is going to hurt the general level of real knowledge on this site, but I also respect Tim too much to claim he is a victim either.

Dan J. · « **Reply #52 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:18:08 am »

I will miss Tim very much.

Dan

Andy Velez · « **Reply #53 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:18:18 am »

Dear All,

Ann and Peter have each expressed thoughts with which I agree.

Moffie very much earned the time out he was given in a flamming situation. Even so, his getting that troubled me very much because I knew that it potentially would bring him the NEXT time to a permanent ban. Being familiar with Moffie's impulsive nature from many past occasions I knew that it was almost only a question of time before he got himself into another explosive situation and said things we can't allow here.

As it turned out he was the one who chose to create a circumstance in which Peter banned him. Please read that carefully. Moffie wouldn't have been banned if he hadn't pulled his blog and essentially told Peter to go to hell.

He did the same thing sometime back and through our patience we managed to "talk him off the ledge" so to speak. For which I might add he apologized and thanked us at the time. And there have been so many times when we have had to step in caution him. I've said it before today. It bears repeating. Freedom of speech is not a carte blanche to say just anything you want to spout. It comes with responsibilities.

People can wax nostalgically all they like about how great the Forums used to be. And they were and they still are. But that nostalgia can obscure the reasons certain rules came into being. There were horrible firefights here and they weren't just the occasional fracas. There was a lot, a LOT of very mean spirited and disruptive stuff that happened in these pages.

The rules we came up after a lot of discussion with were because the situation demanded it in order to keep this a safe place for people to come for support and information. I cannot count the number of times we moderators have discussed issuing a time out and even more time spent in considering a ban when it involved a longtime member.

And as said, Moffie was getting a time out, not a ban. He turned the situation into ban. Sure he held a special place of esteem for many here who have known him over a period of time. But just how special was that place? Did it entitle him to just blast off and attack someone in the ranting manner he was given to? That's what earned him a time out.

But he got on his high horse and impulsively pulled his blogs. Defend him as you will and love him all you like, he was the one who forced Peter's hand on this. I'm sad the situation has come to this, but no one can simply be allowed to say anything they want to here. That's the way to anarchy. We've had enough tastes of it in the past. It caused many of you to ask us in threads and in PMs to put a stop to it, including some who have expressed themselves here today.

While you're feeling sad and sorry about this you might think about Moffie's part in having brought matters to this conclusion. And even though I know he brought it on himself, I can't help being sad as well.

northernguy · « **Reply #54 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:31:55 am »

Quote from: Andy Velez on October 24, 2007, 10:18:18 am

..
People can wax nostalgically all they like about how great the Forums used to be. And they were and they still are. But that nostalgia can obscure the reasons certain rules came into being. There were horrible firefights here and they weren't just the occasional fracas. There was a lot, a LOT of very mean spirited and disruptive stuff that happened in these pages...

If so I'm glad I missed the old forums. I come here and have received support, humour and answers to questions from those struggling with the same problems. Cassandra-like predictions of doom for everyone with HIV I do not find particularly helpful.

david25luvit · « **Reply #55 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:33:37 am »

This ain't Kansas anymore...........
It's a sad, sad day.
Moffie we will miss you.............................

Iggy · « **Reply #56 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:50:45 am »

Quote from: northernguy on October 24, 2007, 10:31:55 am

If so I'm glad I missed the old forums. I come here and have received support, humour and answers to questions from those struggling with the same problems. Cassandra-like predictions of doom for everyone with HIV I do not find particularly helpful.

Might I suggest that your multiple posts in this thread and in particular this last one are very indeed similar to what you accuse Moffie of only though with claims that you are doing the opposite. You are not providing support here - only stirring the pot I believe in hopes of a confrontation.

I respectfully ask you to stop dancing on the grave of one who is no longer with us as an active member of the forums.

Peter Staley · « **Reply #57 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:57:50 am »

Quote from: northernguy on October 24, 2007, 10:31:55 am

If so I'm glad I missed the old forums. I come here and have received support, humour and answers to questions from those struggling with the same problems. Cassandra-like predictions of doom for everyone with HIV I do not find particularly helpful.

Northernguy -- they'll be no dancing on graves here. This was pure flamebait. You've been warned. Don't post to this thread again.

Peter

englishgirl · « **Reply #58 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:27:37 am »

i too have known about this since moffie emailed me on monday. i really dont know what to say other than im really, really sad about the whole thing. other than that, what iggy said in post 51 kinda sums it up for me.

a slight aside but kinda related: im not enjoying the forums at the moment, there seems to be a lot of nastiness here. i hope this stops soon because otherwise i can see a lot of us just relying on email, and then how does that help the newcomers either newly diagnosed or newly online? i wish everyone would be more tolerant of each other and each other's opinions. please.

Dachshund · « **Reply #59 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:38:21 am »

I'd like to say that I am saddened that Tim was banned or chose to leave the forums. I consider him a friend and 99.9% of the time agreed with his stand on the issues. I must confess I'd wince on occasion reading some of Tim's replies thinking that this just might get him a time out. Unfortunately, his last post did just that. I consider myself along with a few other forum members someone who truly had Tim's back. Call it a conspiracy theory if you like, but in my mind there was/are a few members who constantly used passive aggressive sniping at Tim hoping to goad him into losing his temper. I've told him that and asked him not to play their game. In fact just before he left the forums I sent Tim a PM after a member was banned (though I have no knowledge) telling Tim that I felt that the moderators had finally recognized what this person was up to. I can't recall my exact words to Tim, but I wanted him to know that he wasn't alone that some of us saw through the shenanigans. He replied to me on a positive note and was a bit surprised to think that the mods had been paying attention. Like I said, I have no knowledge of this, I hoped this was the case, and thought it might make Tim feel better hearing it. I think it did make him feel better. I wish Tim had followed his own counsel and had done what he has recommended to so many of us over the years. Step back, take a breath and evaluate before reacting. I'm truly sorry it came to this.

I must say I am a bit upset with how this thread was started. I feel it was just a way for an angry forum member to attack AidsMeds. You can't have it both ways. You can't accuse folks of something, hint that you have the "smoking gun" proving your point in the form of an email, and then refuse to post it because of the "gory details." You can't demand that someone be forthcoming and then not have the cojones to print the email and let folks judge for themselves. If you want an open debate you can't just hurl charges and hope the mud sticks. Framing the debate your way results in people of the highest moral caliber being called fuck wads. People like Jan who extended their trip to AMG so she could rendezvous with her friend Tim in Las Vegas.

David_CA · « **Reply #60 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:56:46 am »

Quote from: englishgirl on October 24, 2007, 11:27:37 am

a slight aside but kinda related: im not enjoying the forums at the moment, there seems to be a lot of nastiness here. i hope this stops soon because otherwise i can see a lot of us just relying on email, and then how does that help the newcomers either newly diagnosed or newly online? i wish everyone would be more tolerant of each other and each other's opinions. please.

This has been bothering me for a couple of weeks, too. It seems like we have the same discussions over and over... I don't mean that people are having problems or issues and need help, but like the same 'debates' that have no right or wrong answers. People get caught up in them, get pissed, and post hateful remarks. Other times, they'll take the passive-aggressive approach and throw in a term line optimistic, current politicians, positive thinking, doom and gloom predictors, rehashing the same crap that a particular member has stated in the past, etc. I don't know if it's the pending full moon, if stress and emotions are out of whack due to recent major health problems with particular members, or what all else. I do know that it's becoming a bit unpleasant.

One thing I've done is, after I type out a reply or a post, I preview it and read it. I'll read it to see how it can be misinterpreted. I look for grammar and spelling mistakes. I look at it as something I'm putting out for the world to see, which is exactly what I am doing.

I've seen mention of 'self policing'. To me, that makes things just as unpleasant as an obvious flame-bater. I've never reported anybody to a moderator, but I have sent PM's to people telling them that they may want to edit their post, as it'll likely be taken out of context or misunderstood, but I don't bitch at them. Here's part of a PM I sent to another member yesterday: "I know you're pissed at [XXXX}, but you might want to edit your post about [xxxxxxxxxx]. There's no sense in you getting timed out. If not, you'll at least get a warning. I'm not trying to tell you what to do or anything, but just trying to keep another HIV 'brother' out of trouble! Take care."

I guess what I'd like to see is a bit more compassion towards others and a bit more self control when it comes to posting ones feelings. After previewing this reply, I just read Dachshund's post. I think he states a lot of what I feel, and I'll quote part of his reply here:

Quote

Step back, take a breath and evaluate before reacting.

David

woodshere · « **Reply #61 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:17:57 pm »

Quote from: David_NC on October 24, 2007, 11:56:46 am

It seems like we have the same discussions over and over... I don't mean that people are having problems or issues and need help, but like the same 'debates' that have no right or wrong answers.

No matter how much things change they always stay the same.

History repeats itself.

Some discussions will always be repeated and hashed out because unfortunately we continue to get new members of the recently infected. And as they begin their HIV journey they will have many of the same thoughts, views and feelings that each of us had when our journeys begin. It is just the ebb and flow of our lives.

David_CA · « **Reply #62 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:29:54 pm »

Quote from: woodshere on October 24, 2007, 01:17:57 pm

Some discussions will always be repeated and hashed out because unfortunately we continue to get new members of the recently infected. And as they begin their HIV journey they will have many of the same thoughts, views and feelings that each of us had when our journeys begin. It is just the ebb and flow of our lives.

Yeah, I realize that. I have no problem with those. In fact, that's to be expected. I know that many others have likely asked every question that I've asked and will likely ask in the future. I'm referring to those discussions with the same members participating saying the same things as always and people getting upset about 'em again and again.

David

thunter34 · « **Reply #63 on:** October 24, 2007, 02:22:13 pm »

Quote from: Dachshund on October 24, 2007, 11:38:21 am

I must say I am a bit upset with how this thread was started. I feel it was just a way for an angry forum member to attack AidsMeds.

Agreed. As I review this thread, I can't see what other aim it could have possibly been thought to have other than to stir anger and ill will.

woodshere · « **Reply #64 on:** October 24, 2007, 02:29:52 pm »

Quote from: David_NC on October 24, 2007, 01:29:54 pm

I'm referring to those discussions with the same members participating saying the same things as always and people getting upset about 'em again and again.

ahhhh, gottcha.

sdcabincrew74 · « **Reply #65 on:** October 24, 2007, 03:33:46 pm »

Quote from: Ann on October 24, 2007, 04:36:29 am

SD,

You're lucky Jan and Peter got to you first. I would have given you a Time Out, no warnings necessary.

Threats! I forgot the mods are holier than thou on this site. This site has lost what it once had and I completely blame our faultless moderators!

thunter34 · « **Reply #66 on:** October 24, 2007, 03:59:58 pm »

Quote from: sdcabincrew74 on October 24, 2007, 03:33:46 pm

Threats! I forgot the mods are holier than thou on this site. This site has lost what it once had and I completely blame our faultless moderators!

I call "bullshit". No, the mods are not "holier than thou", but they are the enforcer of the posting rules. And the toxic posts you have made in this thread scream out for disciplinary actiion.

You seem hell bent on getting yourself timed out or banned from here, sd. To post crap like this and then claim you are being bullied is pure malarkey.

EDIT: I respectfully ask you to stop it, sd. This stuff you are posting isn't helping the situation at all. Your intentions in this thread seem pretty suspect as well.

Ann · « **Reply #67 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:09:32 pm »

Quote from: sdcabincrew74 on October 24, 2007, 03:33:46 pm

Threats! I forgot the mods are holier than thou on this site. This site has lost what it once had and I completely blame our faultless moderators!

SD,

See you in seven days. Enjoy your time out.

Ann

thunter34 · « **Reply #68 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:22:56 pm »

I need to say something here:

For all this talk about "the good old days" around here, I think it speaks pretty well of the freedom of expression we enjoy here that this dreadful thread has been allowed to bubble and boil here as long as it has. Because from where I'm sitting, most of this thread has been little more than that: a putrid witch's brew concocted to poison.

I have only been on here a year, so maybe it really was pure milk & honey way back when. But this "pale imitation" that we have here and now had been pretty damn good to me. It's made my life dealing with HIV a sight better, I'll tell ya that.

Putting it in print,

Tim Hunter

englishgirl · « **Reply #69 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:31:19 pm »

not that one should quote oneself but:

Quote from: englishgirl on October 24, 2007, 11:27:37 am

im not enjoying the forums at the moment, there seems to be a lot of nastiness here. i hope this stops soon because otherwise i can see a lot of us just relying on email, and then how does that help the newcomers either newly diagnosed or newly online? i wish everyone would be more tolerant of each other and each other's opinions. please.

and what timmy hunter said.

anniebc · « **Reply #70 on:** October 24, 2007, 05:05:00 pm »

Quote

But this "pale imitation" that we have here and now had been pretty damn good to me. It's made my life dealing with HIV a sight better,

Tim the forums of today do not Pale in comparison to the old forums..they offer just as much support now as they did back then...we all look back on the "Good old days" wether it's the old forums or life in general, things change, and if we are still getting what we want/need then change is not a bad thing.

I'm glad the forums have given you what you needed, but remember you have given just as much back..it really does work both ways, and that's what the forums are all about.

Hugs
Jan

Ann · « **Reply #71 on:** October 24, 2007, 05:23:27 pm »

The more this place changes, the more it stays the same. These forums are what you make of them. Nothing more, nothing less. You get out exactly what you put in. You put support in, you get support out. You put vitriol in, you get vitriol - and occassionally timed - out.

And with that, I think it's time this thread was locked.

Ann

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