Genital rubbing

[Bradruss]

Hi there,
I am married with children, I have never been with anyone but my wife up until a week ago I made the stupid choice to see a girl (sexworker) she performed unprotected oral in which I ejaculated in her mouth.
This was the only form of touching/sex that happened.
I suffer from anxiety and depression as it is and as soon as this was over I immediately panicked.
I have read all questions on here and also google but the reports are so mixed.
You say on here that there is no risk at all, but other reports say there is up to a 0.5% risk of hiv?

I am really struggling day to day at the moment as I’m not mentally strong and believe I will have hiv from this event.

Where do the reports come from that state there is a risk?
I am scared for my kids and wife that I’m going to leave them behind, hiv is not something I would cope with.

Doctors have told me I need to wait 6 weeks until I can be tested but making it to the 6 weeks isn’t an option. I haven’t eaten or seen my kids since last week. Can someone (Jim?) clarify the no risk vs some risk.

[Jim Allen]

Hiya,

Getting your penis sucked lacks all the conditions required for acquiring HIV,  thus it makes sense that after nearly 40 years of this pandemic in terms of BJ's there hasn’t been a single documented case of HIV transmission to an insertive partner (the person being "sucked") and you will not be the worlds first.

Now theoretically, if you beat the person to a bloody pulp beforehand or something equally producing this result it would be a theoretical risk if she then sucked you off but this falls under it's never been transmitted this way before but this might meet all the requirements.

So my risk assessment is presuming she did not have blood running from her face

I am married

Well obvious perhaps, but if I don't point this out it would be wrong, so if you have been engaging in unprotected intercourse with your partner this would meet all the biological conditions needed for acquiring HIV.

Now I don't judge couples that decide to engage in unprotected intercourse, it's often based on trust within a relationship, however, just note this trust or faith does not prevent HIV and any unprotected intercourse is simply accepting a possible risk to you of acquiring HIV. Test regularly, understand your real risks.

Here's what you need to know in order to avoid HIV infection:
Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, every time, no exceptions. Consider starting PrEP as an additional layer of HIV protection going forward

Keep in mind that some sexual practices which may be described as ‘safe’ in terms of HIV transmission might still pose a risk for transmission of other STI's, so please do get fully tested regularly and at least yearly for all STI's including but not limited to HIV and test more frequently if unprotected intercourse occurs

Also note that it is possible to have an STI and show no signs or symptoms and the only way of knowing is by testing.

More information on HIV Basics, PEP, TaSP and Transmission can be found through the links in my signature to our POZ pages, this includes information on HIV Testing

Kind regards

Jim

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[Bradruss]

Where do the other reports come from but? Please don’t think I am questioning your experience. There is so many reports and even on the cdc website it says insertive oral is a low risk but still a risk?

[Jim Allen]

There are no documented cases and I've explained it's a theoretical risk if certain conditions that are somewhat extream were met. You did not meet these conditions so it simply does not apply to you even in theory.

Now stressing about never before happened events i.e the theoretical HIV events that don't even apply to you is not productive or healthy if you ask me. It would make more sense to stress about being hit in the head by a meteorite whilst sitting on the toilet as meteorites do hit the earth from time to time.

As for the somewhat contextless or outdated CYA (Cover your ass) publications well I can't fix that but I've given you at least the context of this theoretical issue and your risk assessment based on what you posted is you had no HIV risk from getting your penis sucked.

I recommend you move on with your life, manage your real HIV risks instead and test at least yearly out of standard routine like every sexually active adult should for HIV & far easier to acquire STI's
 

[Bradruss]

I have one question left so I thought I would get some more information.

I have for life suffered from ocd and health anxiety so regardless of assurance until I get tested I can’t sleep.

Has anyone on this page who said they only had oral sex (insertive fellatio) ended up testing positive?

I have read several reports, regardless if they are true or not I feel like if I test positive no one would believe it was from insertive oral.

I wouldn’t really call what she did a BJ, basically I had a condom on and we took it off as I was finishing for her to take it in her mouth. (5 seconds at most)

I’m just struggling to eat and even live day to day while waiting to get tested, I know everyone will say it’s no risk but I’m just struggling to cope while waiting.
There is so much on the Internet in regards to claims it has happened.

I just think what if she had blood on her mouth or I had cuts I didn’t see etc..

[Jim Allen]

I'm sure you can appreciate that I've heard some pretty imaginative stories over the years, I honestly can't recall all. To mention a few though, aliens from out of space, the neighbours' cat, shaking hands and more recently about an ice-cream.

Thankfully stories are just stories, not facts and, there are many reasons why someone would rather not admit to exposure, or simply incorrectly dismiss a real risk without realizing it. Factoring into stories is that being newly diagnosed is difficult enough time on its own, for some its a time of struggling with a deep fear of HIV stigma, social judgment, Isolation & self-stigma and things like sexuality, religion, family, sexual relationships etc might play a role asides from legal fears for some.

I just think what if she had blood on her mouth or I had cuts I didn’t see etc..
 

"what if's". She did not have blood streaming from her face, you were not covered in it afterwards, there was no urgent medical care required. No relevant "what if" to be had.

Try to focus on your real HIV risks in life instead and reducing those risks. Use condoms for any intercourse, consider PrEP as an additional layer of HIV prevention for the future and test at least yearly out of standard routine like every sexually active adult should for HIV & far easier to acquire STI's

Best, Jim

[Bradruss]

I’m here again. Put myself in the same position and don’t know what to do.

I went to see a sex worker, I put a condom on straight away. She gave me oral for a few minutes and then as she got on top and my penis was going in her I ejaculated.

I checked the condom and also filled it with water, what if the condom has small tears or holes?
It was inside her for max 15 seconds.
I know this may sound stupid to most people but I’m struggling day to day.

What if there was small holes in the condom or if she used lamb skin condoms as I heard these can let through hiv.

[Jim Allen]

Sorry to hear that you have these ongoing fears ... Driven by guilt perhaps.

Anyhow understand that the sex worker primarily uses condoms to protect themselves from clients. lambskin wouldn't be a condom they would use also, you would know if it was lambskin.

Now HIV can't transmit through an intact latex or polyurethane condom.

If a condom fails during the act of intercourse it's obvious to the insertive partner. There is no reason to be stressing or testing over intercourse outside of yearly routine as long as this obvious issue did not happen.

As for water testing after the fact, oh boy...

There is no way or need for you to "test" condoms, if you test the condom before you use it this can weaken the condom, making it more likely to break during use. So don't and, also never test a condom after you use it either. Instead, immediately dispose of the condom in the bin.

Testing the condom after intercourse could damage the condom, as it's not designed as a reusable (re-stressed) product and this could lead you to mistakenly think that the condom was damaged during sex, when in fact you actually caused the damage after the intercourse by trying to "test" it with water. In short, testing the condom yourself before or after use is not a reliable way to tell you anything.

Testing condoms yourself is basically a step shy of all out paranoia if you ask me. Instead, use condoms correctly and consistently, seek support for your anxiety.

Perhaps talk to your healthcare provider about taking PrEP. PrEP is a drug you can take as part of routine to reduce your HIV risk. Meaning should you ever have a real exposure to HIV it's an additional layer of protection.

More importantly for you is that PrEP prehaps will offer peace of mind going forward.

Jim

[Jim Allen]

P.s

Continue to use condoms for any intercourse, no exceptions! Remember to test out of standard routine at least yearly for HIV and far easier to acquire STI's.

[Bradruss]

Hi Jim,
Do you think I should get PEP immediately??

[Jim Allen]

No you don't need PEP.

 You had no exposure from this recent encounter to test for let alone PEP!.

To clarify:

PEP = post-exposure prophylaxis means taking HIV medicines (ART) shortly after being exposed for 28 days to try and prevent HIV infection.

PrEP = Pre-exposure prophylaxis is the use of HIV drugs to prevent HIV in people who have not yet been exposed.

You should consider talking to your healthcare provider about PrEP (NOT PEP) and also consider asking about face to face therapy to help you cope with your fears.

Jim

 

[Bradruss]

Hey Jim, I just get so f*** frustrated as to why I would even do this again. I have always had a fear of hiv even from a child I remember seeing it on tv. It’s so hard to seperate what is real from no risk for me.

Has there ever been a case of hiv passing through an intact Condom.

[Jim Allen]

Yeah, we all remember the adds on TV from back in the 80's etc.

Definitely worth considering talking to a therapist about, fear is fine within reason and natural but freaking out or stressing about non-existent issues is no longer reasonable.

I've answered the condom question already.

[Bradruss]

Hi Jim,
I’m really not coping at all (I am speaking to someone)
I keep reading errors that can occur with the Condom that can make it ineffective.
What if I didn’t push the air out of it example?

Also I just want to note that only half of my Penis actually went in before I stopped, maybe for maximum 10-15 seconds.

But when taking it off what if secretion came in contact with myself (penis area)
Do men do this often and not think twice or worry? I have mates that just laugh at me, they think I’m being ridiculous

[Jim Allen]

when taking it off what if secretion came in contact with myself (penis area)

Not an HIV concern. HIV is limited, fragile and sexually transmitted inside the confines of the human body as in never leaving those confines like during condomless intercourse.

I keep reading errors that can occur with the Condom that can make it ineffective.
What if I didn’t push the air out of it example?

It would increase the odds that the condom may break during the act of intercourse, however, it did not and so this thought is totally irrelevant.

I’m really not coping at all (I am speaking to someone)

I'm sorry to hear that, keep working with this person and give it time. I presume they are a qualified counselor or therapist of some sort. Also, stop looking up things and reading out of context rubbish online, it's just feeding your irrational fears.

So far the only HIV concern has been the condomless intercourse with your partner in October as we discussed before. 

Continue to use condoms and test out of standard routine at least yearly for HIV and far easier to acquire STI's.

Remember that if a condom fails during the act of intercourse it's obvious to the insertive partner. There is no reason to be stressing or testing over intercourse outside of yearly routine as long as this obvious issue did not happen.

Jim

[Bradruss]

Hi again,
I understand what you are going to say however there are clinics who have told me this is a “low risk” and not “no risk”

I went and seen a massage lady, she climbed on top and began to rub herself on me (vagina to penis)
I made sure the head of my penis didn’t touch however she slide 3/4 of the way upand down For about a minute.
Is this still a risk??

[Jim Allen]

Hiya

Rubbing against your penis is no HIV risk whatsoever to you as long as it didn't progress into something more such as penetration/intercourse.

If you keep having these fears consider speaking to a therapist and use condoms for any intercourse, test out of standard routine at least yearly for HIV and far easier to acquire STI's

Best, Jim.

[Bradruss]

So it’s completely a no risk situation? What about small micro tears On penis shaft or what if the head of penis comes in contact with outside of vagina

[Jim Allen]

Unless you pentrated her with your penis there is no HIV risk. No "what ifs" about it.

Jim

[Bradruss]

Ok I want to ask a scenario. How fast does hiv travel? Say a penis had vaginal fluid rubbed all over it, no intercourse or penetration but a lot of rubbing for 20 minutes, is this scenario a risk? Can the penis absorb fluid somewhere?

[Jim Allen]

Hiya.

How fast HIV travels or how long you did the rubbing is irrevelent.

As said unless you pentrated her with your penis there is no HIV risk. No "what ifs" about it. She could have rubbed your penis all day long it would not be an HIV risk.

Four conditions need to be present simultaneously for HIV transmission to occur even in theory: The virus must be present in an infectious bodily fluid from the HIV positive person, it must be present at sufficient levels to cause infection. There must be an effective route of transmission, and it must reach susceptible cells in another person.

To start with the the fluid a woman produces when sexually excited comes from the Bartholin's glands, this is a lubricating fluid and does not have any more hiv present than other bodily secretions such as saliva, sweat or tears.  Saliva, sweat and tears are not infectious fluids.

Asides from that HIV is fragile and sexually only transmitted inside the confines of the human body as in never being exposed outside the body and no matter how close you rubbed those fluids that did not have HIV were are also exposed to the environment outside the body, it also lacked basic route not that this matters as you lacked exposure to viable HIV and I could go on but in short this event did not meet any of the conditions simultaneously needed for acquiring HIV.

Hance, nobody has ever acquired HIV the way you fear, stop thinking up new ways for HIV to transmit and instead focus on your real risks in life. I wish you well ,however, if you post about this no-risk scenario again it's going to lead to a ban out of kindness to encourage you to seek face to face support.

Finally, start using condoms for any intercourse, no exceptions and test for STI's and HIV yearly out of standard routine.

Best. Jim

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

[Bradruss]

So you think I should not even get tested? There is 100% no risk?

What if vaginal fluid touches the penis head/foreskin?
I’m not posting excessively I’m just curious to know where the line is drawn between no risk and low risk.

[Jim Allen]

Hiya.

Asked and answered already - I already said no "What if's" about it and explained it in detail. Banned as promised, move on with your life!

You had no HIV risk from what you posted.

Consider speaking to someone face to face to help you with your irrational fears if you can't move on with your life. 

Remember to focus on prevention in regards to your real risks, meaning use condoms for any intercourse, no exceptions, consider PrEP as an additional layer of HIV prevention. Test out of routine at least yearly for HIV and far easier to acquire STI's.

Unless you pentrated her with your penis there is no HIV risk. No "what ifs" about it.

As said unless you pentrated her with your penis there is no HIV risk. No "what ifs" about it. She could have rubbed your penis all day long it would not be an HIV risk.

nobody has ever acquired HIV the way you fear, stop thinking up new ways for HIV to transmit and instead focus on your real risks in life. I wish you well ,however, if you post about this no-risk scenario again it's going to lead to a ban out of kindness to encourage you to seek face to face support.

Finally, start using condoms for any intercourse, no exceptions and test for STI's and HIV yearly out of standard routine.

Four conditions need to be present simultaneously for HIV transmission to occur even in theory: The virus must be present in an infectious bodily fluid from the HIV positive person, it must be present at sufficient levels to cause infection. There must be an effective route of transmission, and it must reach susceptible cells in another person.

To start with the the fluid a woman produces when sexually excited comes from the Bartholin's glands, this is a lubricating fluid and does not have any more hiv present than other bodily secretions such as saliva, sweat or tears.  Saliva, sweat and tears are not infectious fluids.

Asides from that HIV is fragile and sexually only transmitted inside the confines of the human body as in never being exposed outside the body and no matter how close you rubbed those fluids that did not have HIV were are also exposed to the environment outside the body, it also lacked basic route not that this matters as you lacked exposure to viable HIV and I could go on but in short this event did not meet any of the conditions simultaneously needed for acquiring HIV.

[Bradruss]

Hi, I’m here again. I was banned last time for asking questions please don’t do that again as I don’t have anyone else to talk to about this.
I always think that I’m doing something that is no risk but afterward I start to think how stupid it was.

I went and seen a massage lady. Which started as the usual penis massage. However she began to rub the outside of my anus. No fingers went in at all. Afterwards I am freaking out that if she had blood or cuts on her fingers and it went inside me.

I know how this sounds but please go easy on me. If she did have blood or open cuts and this wiped near my anus will there be a low risk

[Jim Allen]

Hiya.

Rubbing against is not an HIV risk, we have covered this. Please don't ask again about rubbing against you or you against someone.

Even if she had stuck her fingers in your anus it would not be an HIV risk.

Jim

[Bradruss]

It’s not the rubbing that worries me. I know this is no risk.
What scares me is if there was blood which got near
My anus as this is a direct route. If there was an open cut on her hands or fingers and this was rubber into me (anus)

[Jim Allen]

Asides from that HIV is fragile and sexually only transmitted inside the confines of the human body as in never being exposed outside the body and no matter how close you rubbed those fluids

Hence, nobody has ever acquired HIV the way you fear, stop thinking up new ways for HIV to transmit and instead focus on your real risks in life. I wish you well, However, if you post about this no-risk scenario again it's going to lead to a ban out of kindness to encourage you to seek face to face support.

Whatever fluids rubbed against you or your anus its not an HIV risk. The same as the last time you asked about genital rubbing that is also not a risk.

Despite scratches, cuts, small wounds etc frottage, rubbing, touching and fingering is no HIV risk whatsoever, hence, nobody has ever acquired HIV this way and you will not be the worlds first.

If she chopped her finger in half and fingered you with the bloody stump or some similar medical emergency but instead of seeking medical care fingered you instead than it would have a theoretical risk, as in it has never happened yet. I doubt you were covered in blood after the massage, you would have mentioned it by now.

I wish you well but these "what ifs" are irrational.

Don't share syringes and use condoms for any intercourse. Test out of standard routine yearly for STI's & HIV.

[Bradruss]

That’s what I don’t understand. If the anus is an entry point to inside the body and blood Is rubbed around this entry then to me that is an obvious exposure?

[Jim Allen]

Okay, not to mean but let's be blunt as I am not willing to do the merry go round on this.

Yes, your anus is an entry point but only if someone stuck their penis inside your anus. Did that happen? This is your moment to change the story, I will not judge.

Otherwise, forget your anus, don't ask me again and move on with your life, as anything else anus related including rubbing against or other objects inserted other than a penis lacks the basic conditions biological needed for you to aquire HIV, you don't need to understand this.

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.