POZ Community Forums
Off Topic Forums => Off Topic Forum => Topic started by: fabio on April 13, 2021, 06:10:51 am
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So, I was waiting for this to happen at some point since in Greece nurses are quite ignorant when it comes to HIV. One of my co-students made a presentation title that she wants to make and had very awful,bad inaccurate and ignorant wording that the professor didn't make the effort to correct.
She specifically wrote "people living with aids infection" which is so wrong in so many levels and I called it out. I said that aids is a syndrome and not an infection. What is more proper would be to write "people living with HIV/AIDS" rather than making such a major inaccuracy.
I did get attacked and the professor didn't say anything. But I feel ok for calling it out rather than just keep quiet about it. Considering most of the stigma I have personally faced from healthcare personnel was from nurses.
Did I do the right thing ?
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I would have let it go.
Doesn't seem malicious, maybe somewhat misguided but at the end of the day it's a wording difference
Labels come and go, what is acceptable today was unknown yesterday and will be replaced with a new phrase tomorrow
Just my take
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Dear Fabio,
I admit that before getting infected I was completely ignorant and for sure didn't know the difference between hiv and aids. But I'm not a nurse, nor I was studying to become one like your co-students.
These people are supposed to know better and the Prof should have endorsed you. Actally, I wonder why he didn't.
Be patient with them, they just act out of ignorance. We once were like them.
Hugs
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Did I do the right thing ?
Absolutely, it's reasonable I think for anyone using inaccurate medical terms to use the correct one.. especially if they're pursuing a medical profession.
Good for you Fabio for standing up to correct it.. knowledge beats stigma ;)
You probably should have stuck this topic in the "living with hiv" forum imo.
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Dear Fabio,
I admit that before getting infected I was completely ignorant and for sure didn't know the difference between hiv and aids. But I'm not a nurse, nor I was studying to become one like your co-students.
These people are supposed to know better and the Prof should have endorsed you. Actally, I wonder why he didn't.
Be patient with them, they just act out of ignorance. We once were like them.
Hugs
That's what I thought as well,these people are supposed to educate others and promoting health and not misinformation. I did not do it in an offensive way by the way, I just politely and respectfully said that it is false to characterise a syndrome (which is a cluster of symptoms that happen for a reason) as an infection.
Other than the weight the word holds the stigma of death and implies that everyone who has HIV has AIDS.
I did what I thought was right and pointed a scientific inaccuracy like another professor of mine said. Although I seem to be quite hated in there by some students I dont mind that much.
To be honest I did not know much myself. I really was thinking that life would be just extended for some years and that was it. Until I met my doctors and they explained everything.
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Absolutely, it's reasonable I think for anyone using inaccurate medical terms to use the correct one.. especially if they're pursuing a medical profession.
Good for you Fabio for standing up to correct it.. knowledge beats stigma ;)
You probably should have stuck this topic in the "living with hiv" forum imo.
Yeah,thanks. I do think it's kind of an off topic thing haha.
It is quite common for nurses here to not make the differentiation between the 2.
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I would have let it go.
Doesn't seem malicious, maybe somewhat misguided but at the end of the day it's a wording difference
Labels come and go, what is acceptable today was unknown yesterday and will be replaced with a new phrase tomorrow
Just my take
It might be,but it still made me a bit uneasy because the presentation was about health promotion for community nursing. I got told that too,but I did my own thing and persisted haha.
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I would have let it go.
Doesn't seem malicious, maybe somewhat misguided but at the end of the day it's a wording difference
Labels come and go, what is acceptable today was unknown yesterday and will be replaced with a new phrase tomorrow
Just my take
Agree with you had terminology etc keeps changing.
So, I was waiting for this to happen at some point since in Greece nurses are quite ignorant when it comes to HIV. One of my co-students made a presentation title that she wants to make and had very awful,bad inaccurate and ignorant wording that the professor didn't make the effort to correct.
She specifically wrote "people living with aids infection" which is so wrong in so many levels and I called it out. I said that aids is a syndrome and not an infection. What is more proper would be to write "people living with HIV/AIDS" rather than making such a major inaccuracy.
I did get attacked and the professor didn't say anything. But I feel ok for calling it out rather than just keep quiet about it. Considering most of the stigma I have personally faced from healthcare personnel was from nurses.
Did I do the right thing ?
Fabio, if I was in your shoes particularly as it's healthcare workers or future ones I would have also pointed out that "AIDS infection" is not a thing. The same as "AIDS Test" is not a thing.
Not sure "HIV/AIDS" is correct anymore either? I tuned out though when some PC minded people started calling AIDS "Advanced HIV" ;D
https://www.cdc.gov/stophivtogether/library/stop-hiv-stigma/fact-sheets/cdc-lsht-stigma-factsheet-language-guide.pdf
https://www.poz.com/basics/hiv-basics/hiv-language
https://www.hivireland.ie/policy-news-and-media/hiv-terminology-guidelines/
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ojo. My good friend Fabio...you are right, it came out from your heartl. So relax and be proud of yourself...hugs. ojo
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Agree with you had terminology etc keeps changing.
Fabio, if I was in your shoes particularly as it's healthcare workers or future ones I would have also pointed out that "AIDS infection" is not a thing. The same as "AIDS Test" is not a thing.
Not sure "HIV/AIDS" is correct anymore either? I tuned out though when some PC minded people started calling AIDS "Advanced HIV" ;D
https://www.cdc.gov/stophivtogether/library/stop-hiv-stigma/fact-sheets/cdc-lsht-stigma-factsheet-language-guide.pdf
https://www.poz.com/basics/hiv-basics/hiv-language
https://www.hivireland.ie/policy-news-and-media/hiv-terminology-guidelines/
Yes, everything changes quite often. I was telling to them that they might even get old articles with old data and their answer was ''Well,dsm4 has the same data for years and you can still use it to inform'', but HIV isn't the same as it was then, that's also a point that they are missing.
Man, that's probably the worst thing about university that there are a lot of people suffering from the Dunning and Krugger effect hahaha.
I wish I could make such a presentation, however it is a team presentation and my team has chosen about the ethical issues during covid that nurses faced.
Next time I get some solo paper, I will write about current life with HIV, since no-one in Greece openly says the U=U thing.
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I was diagnosed with AIDS, battled it for a long
I don't appreciate people minimizing my experience by sanitizing the words because it gives them bad feels. It smacks of counter productive political correctness to me.
But I don't make it an issue either... it's always been my burden to bear
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I was diagnosed with AIDS, battled it for a long
I don't appreciate people minimizing my experience by sanitizing the words because it gives them bad feels. It smacks of counter productive political correctness to me.
But I don't make it an issue either... it's always been my burden to bear
That is true,however it is not my intention to offend only to make things accurate. Since it is something everyone has lived here HIV and AIDS have made life difficult some less, some more .
My intention was purely to remove the inaccuracy of aids being an infection.
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Nah man, that wasnt aimed at you by any means
Just giving an example of different experiences leading to different feelings
We're good Fabio, always
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Depends which side of the fence you are on. Before I tested positive I had no issues with talking about people being infected, not clean and having AIDS. Probably born partially out of my ignorance and total lack of knowledge of any stigma that surrounds HIV, how would I know, I was not part of the club and never intended joining. I think the majority of the world think like that. Now though, since I joined the club and jumped the fence, I can see the world from a different perspective. I do not have AIDS and hopefully never will have, I do not see myself as unclean and hate the term infected being used towards me.
I wouldn't bother picking people up on it though, I had to catch it myself to change my attitude.
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What is AIDS?
AIDS (acquired immune deficiency syndrome) is a condition caused by HIV. This virus attacks the immune system, the body’s “security force” that fights off infections. When the immune system breaks down, you lose this protection and can develop many serious, often deadly infections and cancers. These are called “opportunistic infections (OIs)” because they take advantage of the body’s weakened defenses. You have heard it said that someone “died of AIDS.” This is not entirely accurate, since it is the opportunistic infections that cause death. AIDS is the condition that lets the OIs take hold."
Fabio,...Maybe you should print this out and give it to her. By the way, the above, is from this site.
Ray
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Fabio,...
I had to do some correcting of an individual a few weeks back. We were sitting at the bar, and this person stated that Magic Johnson, " was no longer HIV positive"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson
I asked him ," What are you talking about ?" His response was, He's been living with HIV for so long, That he doesn't have HIV anymore." ( I am trying to quote exactly, as I remember the conversation with him)
I said, " You are completely wrong, and you getting wrong information"
I said Magic Johnson is still HIV positive. What he is, is " Undetectable" , which is what every HIV positive person strives for. I can assure you, that if Magic Johnson were to stop his medication, that is keeping him "Undetectable" , he would become a very sick man , and progress to AIDS.
There were a couple more minutes of discussion, but I finally got him to understand.
I also had a couple other pairs of eyes and ears listening in on our conversation, As I was sitting 15 feet from him),.. I also feel they got an education as well.
When one is sitting in a Gay Bar, and giving out bad information about HIV, I perk up very quickly and chime in to get people corrected.
Long story short, this person really didn't have a clue as to what the medications do. and he thought "undetectable" meant HIV negative.
I also told him about "undetectable means Untransmissible" I showed him a link from my phone.
Ray :)
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It is quite common for nurses here to not make the differentiation between the 2.
I don't understand why, it's not that hard to figure out the difference.
They're either stupid or purposely trying to be assholes.
I know I'm being a bit angry here, but you stay level headed and do good in school. I know nothing about nursing in Greece.
I tuned out though when some PC minded people started calling AIDS "Advanced HIV" ;D
I also didn't care for the "Advanced HIV" term either, but PC had nothing to do with it.. just saw it as monotonous.
"AIDS" used in the proper context is medically and politically correct.
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Fabio,...
I had to do some correcting of an individual a few weeks back. We were sitting at the bar, and this person stated that Magic Johnson, " was no longer HIV positive"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson
I asked him ," What are you talking about ?" His response was, He's been living with HIV for so long, That he doesn't have HIV anymore." ( I am trying to quote exactly, as I remember the conversation with him)
I said, " You are completely wrong, and you getting wrong information"
I said Magic Johnson is still HIV positive. What he is, is " Undetectable" , which is what every HIV positive person strives for. I can assure you, that if Magic Johnson were to stop his medication, that is keeping him "Undetectable" , he would become a very sick man , and progress to AIDS.
There were a couple more minutes of discussion, but I finally got him to understand.
I also had a couple other pairs of eyes and ears listening in on our conversation, As I was sitting 15 feet from him),.. I also feel they got an education as well.
When one is sitting in a Gay Bar, and giving out bad information about HIV, I perk up very quickly and chime in to get people corrected.
Long story short, this person really didn't have a clue as to what the medications do. and he thought "undetectable" meant HIV negative.
I also told him about "undetectable means Untransmissible" I showed him a link from my phone.
Ray :)
I know that was meant for Fabio but thank you Ray👍
Question: Can I say that I don't have AIDS anymore?
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I know that was meant for Fabio but thank you Ray👍
Question: Can I say that I don't have AIDS anymore?
If you like ! :) I had my AIDS diagnosis back in 2003, and that was 18 years after I was infected, and I had not started on meds yet.
I had a few OI's going on, 35 pounds lost to wasting. Then got tinnitus after starting on meds, along with Neuropathy.
In 2003, I could admit that I had AIDS. One look in the mirror told me that. The pictures I took back in that year were horrendous. Today I am doing relatively fine taking everything into consideration.
I will be 70 this year, and living with HIV for 35 years,.. and overall health is pretty good. From 16 tcells in 2003, to 535 at last testing. all my other labs are fine. Just dealing with the reality of getting older now, and age related issues,... And it really pisses me off that I cant do the things I used to do. I love to keep moving as much as possible, that's what makes me feel good about myself. And there is always plenty of work to do around the house ! :)
So I say, I don't have AIDS. I am a person living with HIV.
Ray 8)
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What is AIDS?
AIDS (acquired immune deficiency syndrome) is a condition caused by HIV. This virus attacks the immune system, the body’s “security force” that fights off infections. When the immune system breaks down, you lose this protection and can develop many serious, often deadly infections and cancers. These are called “opportunistic infections (OIs)” because they take advantage of the body’s weakened defenses. You have heard it said that someone “died of AIDS.” This is not entirely accurate, since it is the opportunistic infections that cause death. AIDS is the condition that lets the OIs take hold."
Fabio,...Maybe you should print this out and give it to her. By the way, the above, is from this site.
Ray
Yeah,the misuse of the term irks me in many ways,mostly because they use inaccurate medical terms. Funny enough,my ID nurses and doctors have never used the term to describe anyone like that.
It is quite a good topic for discussion too,since there is the stigma from tv when they want to make a really bad and ignorant joke.Depends which side of the fence you are on. Before I tested positive I had no issues with talking about people being infected, not clean and having AIDS. Probably born partially out of my ignorance and total lack of knowledge of any stigma that surrounds HIV, how would I know, I was not part of the club and never intended joining. I think the majority of the world think like that. Now though, since I joined the club and jumped the fence, I can see the world from a different perspective. I do not have AIDS and hopefully never will have, I do not see myself as unclean and hate the term infected being used towards me.
I wouldn't bother picking people up on it though, I had to catch it myself to change my attitude.
I was the same as you,all the fear mongering we learned at school (partially,because we only did this in biology) the biology book was from the 90s,so it said you can take meds ,but never said that life is just as normal or you can do things like before. It just left everything ambiguous. It did instill a lot of fear,even when I heard someone famous was positive I thought "this is probably it". It is up to professionals to educate and make discussions about this and throw away the stigma of old. I'm surprised that noone does yet,although I'm happy my ID team are good and knowledgeable people.
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Fabio,...
I had to do some correcting of an individual a few weeks back. We were sitting at the bar, and this person stated that Magic Johnson, " was no longer HIV positive"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson
I asked him ," What are you talking about ?" His response was, He's been living with HIV for so long, That he doesn't have HIV anymore." ( I am trying to quote exactly, as I remember the conversation with him)
I said, " You are completely wrong, and you getting wrong information"
I said Magic Johnson is still HIV positive. What he is, is " Undetectable" , which is what every HIV positive person strives for. I can assure you, that if Magic Johnson were to stop his medication, that is keeping him "Undetectable" , he would become a very sick man , and progress to AIDS.
There were a couple more minutes of discussion, but I finally got him to understand.
I also had a couple other pairs of eyes and ears listening in on our conversation, As I was sitting 15 feet from him),.. I also feel they got an education as well.
When one is sitting in a Gay Bar, and giving out bad information about HIV, I perk up very quickly and chime in to get people corrected.
Long story short, this person really didn't have a clue as to what the medications do. and he thought "undetectable" meant HIV negative.
I also told him about "undetectable means Untransmissible" I showed him a link from my phone.
Ray :)
Haha oh yeah,I've heard that too many times,the Magic Johnson thing everyone has the same answer like "he has a lot of money so he got a cure and survived"....well,lol...
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Agree with you had terminology etc keeps changing.
. . .
Not sure "HIV/AIDS" is correct anymore either? I tuned out though when some PC minded people started calling AIDS "Advanced HIV" ;D
the terminology changed through the years as the science advanced. We probably should have always said in the 90s that people were dying of "Advanced HIV". It certainly would have been better than "the gay plague"; but not enough was known at the start.
Personally I like the phrase "full blown AIDS" but people fuss at me for it. LOL
I've done a lot of peer counseling, health fairs, and college HIV education sessions because advocacy can often simply be education. I have found that most people who don't have a disease or condition have no clue about that disease/condition. Since HIV affects such a relatively small portion of society (at least here in America), hardly anyone outside of PLWH and providers know much about HIV. Even other providers/doctors who don't specifically treat HIV, are often ignorant of the most basics of this disease.
TBH for the rest of your life you're going to meet people who don't understand HIV. Based on the situation, it can be an educational moment for you to enlighten someone, or it can be a moment you just let the ignorant stay ignorant. In a classroom setting, it should definitely be an educational moment.
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Not sure "HIV/AIDS" is correct anymore either?
;D Well,... it sure is plastered across this web page at various places. If you look at the upper tabs running across:
HOME--HIV/AIDS---- NEWS----HOT TOPICS----ETC....
And when you click on HIV/AIDS, you get this : :)
WHAT IS HIV/AIDS:
https://www.poz.com/basics/hiv-basics
But, I am like Mike, I have no issue or problem calling it "Full blown aids" , been there, done that, and have seen it many times. If I would have remained in denial a couple months longer in 2003, I most likely would not have survived, and would have become another statistic.
But I believe like Mike, whatever terminology you use, it much better, than the Gay Plague, or the Gay Cancer.
Ray
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;D Well,... it sure is plastered across this web page at various places. If you look at the upper tabs running across:
HOME--HIV/AIDS---- NEWS----HOT TOPICS----ETC....
And when you click on HIV/AIDS, you get this : :)
WHAT IS HIV/AIDS:
https://www.poz.com/basics/hiv-basics
Not sure what your point is? The website is outdated? Perhaps. Not really my call.
Personally I think " HIV/AIDS " is just fine although some find it outdated.
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Glad you spoke up.
I’m tired of nurses and such acting scared or ignorant towards people with HIV or AIDS.
When I had my daughter I mentioned having HIV and a nurse backed up like the words coming from my mouth could infect him. I told the doctor that the nurse couldn’t come near me and why. The nurse tried to apologize but I told him what a horrible nurse he was and that he should quit his job. And to go work at a McDonalds. I made him cry.
Honestly, I had a right to be upset.
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Not sure what your point is? The website is outdated? Perhaps. Not really my call.
Personally I think " HIV/AIDS " is just fine although some find it outdated.
I really didn't mean to make a point. I don't think the website is outdated, and personally, I have no problem with the term HIV/AIDS. If you google HIV/AIDS, the first result you get is the Mayo Clinic, then hiv.gov, and a few others.
But I think I'm getting off track, from Fabio's initial post.
Ray :)
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Personally I think " HIV/AIDS " is just fine although some find it outdated.
I can see how some would find it outdated, they are 2 separate accronyms.. combined someone who knows nothing about HIV would maybe assume it also means AIDS.
Glad you spoke up.
I’m tired of nurses and such acting scared or ignorant towards people with HIV or AIDS.
When I had my daughter I mentioned having HIV and a nurse backed up like the words coming from my mouth could infect him. I told the doctor that the nurse couldn’t come near me and why. The nurse tried to apologize but I told him what a horrible nurse he was and that he should quit his job. And to go work at a McDonalds. I made him cry.
Honestly, I had a right to be upset.
I agree, you had all the right to be upset and to speak up about it too.. but maybe the tears of the nurse was an indication that he was sorry and embarrassed for being ignorant? How long ago was this?
Personally I believe that the science and knowledge about HIV has come a long ways now.. and there's no excuse for anyone in the medical field to be deliberately ignorant.
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I’m tired of nurses and such acting scared or ignorant towards people with HIV or AIDS.
When I had my daughter I mentioned having HIV and a nurse backed up like the words coming from my mouth could infect him.
I have experienced the same. (I have posted before on these forums about this crazy incident) When I tested positive at the Pinellas County Health Dept, on Myrtle Avenue in Clearwater, fl , In October of 1985, the entire experience was quite bizarre.
I walked through the main entrance, took a number and sat with probably 50 plus other people that were in the large waiting area. Some were there like myself, waiting for their test results, mothers were there with their kids, to get vaccinations, or to possibly get some basic antibiotics for themselves or there children.
My number gets called and I go into a room .. Two people walk in, in full garb and PPE, to tell me I was HIV positive. Their bedside manner to say the least, was about as crude as it gets. But I kept my composure, ... what got to me, was after the nurse handed me my positive Diagnosis, she escorted me through the building, through hallways, almost like a maze,.. to a door I had no idea where it went. Along the wall and next to the door were mops and buckets. I'm think, what the hell. ???
She opened the door, you can leave now, >:( and the door slammed shut behind me. It was an emergency exit door !! I guess she didn't want me, to pass all those people sitting in the main Lobby. If I was having a nervous breakdown because of the results, and hysterical, I might be able understand. But I was fine, I had 3 months to prepare for that result, and I already was 100% sure I was HIV positive.
I found myself in the rear of the building, in the parking lot. All I remember saying was , " What the Fuck "
Anyway, I found my car, and drove to my favorite bar and had a couple shots.
About 10 years later, in 1995, I went to the Health Dept in St. Petersburg, ( 15 miles south), to also collect results for an HIV test. The experience was total opposite and respectful of what I experienced in Clearwater. The reason I went to St. petersburg, was to not experience what i had seen in Clearwater
In all fairness, the one nurse said if you need counseling call this number. Handed me a piece of paper. That was the last time I was in that particular County health Dept.
Definitely crazy times...
Ray
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The nurse tried to apologize but I told him what a horrible nurse he was and that he should quit his job. And to go work at a McDonalds. I made him cry.
Honestly, I had a right to be upset.
Hopefully, that was his wake up call. I don't know how long ago that happened, but hopefully he is a much better nurse now,...... Or he has worked his way up to management in Micky D's. , by now.
Ray
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I have experienced the same. (I have posted before on these forums about this crazy incident) When I tested positive at the Pinellas County Health Dept, on Myrtle Avenue in Clearwater, fl , In October of 1985, the entire experience was quite bizarre.
I walked through the main entrance, took a number and sat with probably 50 plus other people that were in the large waiting area. Some were there like myself, waiting for their test results, mothers were there with their kids, to get vaccinations, or to possibly get some basic antibiotics for themselves or there children.
My number gets called and I go into a room .. Two people walk in, in full garb and PPE, to tell me I was HIV positive. Their bedside manner to say the least, was about as crude as it gets. But I kept my composure, ... what got to me, was after the nurse handed me my positive Diagnosis, she escorted me through the building, through hallways, almost like a maze,.. to a door I had no idea where it went. Along the wall and next to the door were mops and buckets. I'm think, what the hell. ???
She opened the door, you can leave now, >:( and the door slammed shut behind me. It was an emergency exit door !! I guess she didn't want me, to pass all those people sitting in the main Lobby. If I was having a nervous breakdown because of the results, and hysterical, I might be able understand. But I was fine, I had 3 months to prepare for that result, and I already was 100% sure I was HIV positive.
I found myself in the rear of the building, in the parking lot. All I remember saying was , " What the Fuck "
Anyway, I found my car, and drove to my favorite bar and had a couple shots.
About 10 years later, in 1995, I went to the Health Dept in St. Petersburg, ( 15 miles south), to also collect results for an HIV test. The experience was total opposite and respectful of what I experienced in Clearwater. The reason I went to St. petersburg, was to not experience what i had seen in Clearwater
In all fairness, the one nurse said if you need counseling call this number. Handed me a piece of paper. That was the last time I was in that particular County health Dept.
Definitely crazy times...
Ray
Man, what a shitty time for nurses indeed. Not that it doesn't happen today. I had the same when I went for surgery,my mom even cried when she heard the nurses say "I'm not going in there with him,I'd rather wear 4 gloves in each hand and full PPE" and my mother was more ignorant about HIV and she didn't care about it.
I even get these reactions when I go for blood unfortunately. Although the doctors and the ID secretaries (who aren't even healthcare professionals) always have my back and always help me.
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I have experienced the same. (I have posted before on these forums about this crazy incident) When I tested positive at the Pinellas County Health Dept, on Myrtle Avenue in Clearwater, fl , In October of 1985, the entire experience was quite bizarre.
I walked through the main entrance, took a number and sat with probably 50 plus other people that were in the large waiting area. Some were there like myself, waiting for their test results, mothers were there with their kids, to get vaccinations, or to possibly get some basic antibiotics for themselves or there children.
My number gets called and I go into a room .. Two people walk in, in full garb and PPE, to tell me I was HIV positive. Their bedside manner to say the least, was about as crude as it gets. But I kept my composure, ... what got to me, was after the nurse handed me my positive Diagnosis, she escorted me through the building, through hallways, almost like a maze,.. to a door I had no idea where it went. Along the wall and next to the door were mops and buckets. I'm think, what the hell. ???
She opened the door, you can leave now, >:( and the door slammed shut behind me. It was an emergency exit door !! I guess she didn't want me, to pass all those people sitting in the main Lobby. If I was having a nervous breakdown because of the results, and hysterical, I might be able understand. But I was fine, I had 3 months to prepare for that result, and I already was 100% sure I was HIV positive.
I found myself in the rear of the building, in the parking lot. All I remember saying was , " What the Fuck "
Anyway, I found my car, and drove to my favorite bar and had a couple shots.
About 10 years later, in 1995, I went to the Health Dept in St. Petersburg, ( 15 miles south), to also collect results for an HIV test. The experience was total opposite and respectful of what I experienced in Clearwater. The reason I went to St. petersburg, was to not experience what i had seen in Clearwater
In all fairness, the one nurse said if you need counseling call this number. Handed me a piece of paper. That was the last time I was in that particular County health Dept.
Definitely crazy times...
Ray
My experience was tough in 1998. I lost a lot of friends and the fun I used to have. But I had my family there to help me.
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Times have changed. I can only imagine how heated this discussion would have gotten back in 2006.