POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: Rjane on June 16, 2009, 07:20:33 pm
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I am trying to conceive naturally with my gf. This weekend was our first attempt at this. She is aware of the risks. I have been undetectable for about 8 months and the Swiss Study says its OK to try and naturally conceive if the male has been undetectable for 6 months or more. She is negative. I am so nervous. I hope she gets pregnant but i dont want her to become positive.
I will keep you updated, but I am shaking in my boots.
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good luck with that and please keep us posted on your success.
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that was the nicest thing you could say! thanks so much for being so, positive, pardon the pun! i meant it. thanks!
good luck with that and please keep us posted on your success.
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Please keep us updated.
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Good luck to you both, you have a lot of courage, but then again I am a firm believer that knowledge is power.
Keep us updated!
~Cindy
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Will do! Thanks for your support.
Good luck to you both, you have a lot of courage, but then again I am a firm believer that knowledge is power.
Keep us updated!
~Cindy
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Hi R,
I'm wondering if you're doing this with your hiv doctor's knowledge? I ask because if my memory serves me well, there is another forum member who conceived with his wife naturally, and I think that aside from his being undetectable, his wife also took PrEP - which is taking one dose of meds before engaging in sex. This is something you may want to discuss with your doctor for added protection and to ease your worries. If you use the forum search engine with "pregnant" and/or "pregnancy", you may be able to find where this has been discussed.
But yes, it's true that many couples are getting pregnant this way now days (and without the PrEP) and doing it without the woman ending up positive.
I would suggest that you make sure she's well-lubricated - either naturally, or with some help from a water-based lube - before having sex. She should also have a recent full pelvic exam to make sure she doesn't have any underlying issues and is physically healthy. Make sure her OB/GYN doc is sympathetic to your needs - some aren't and I'd hate for her to have to deal with a judgemental and/or uninformed doctor. Your hiv doc may be able to give you a referral to an OB/GYN who is hiv-friendly and hiv-experienced.
Good luck! I look forward to hearing how you get on.
Ann
Oh, and PS - I don't know how much you're researched this, but some couples use a method recommended by fertility clinics to enhance their chances of conception. When this method is used by poz/neg couples, they only have unprotected sex when the woman is in the fertile period of her cycle and use condoms the rest of the time, when she's less likely to conceive anyway. Something for you two to look into, if you haven't already. Here's some links to get you started, and you can Google temperature + ovulation to find more.
http://www.ez-fertility.co.uk/ovulation.html
http://www.babycentre.co.uk/preconception/suspectingaproblem/howtochartyourtemp/
http://www.womens-health.co.uk/charting.html
http://infertility.about.com/od/tryingtoconceive101/ss/howtoBBTchart.htm - be sure to check out the many related links at the bottom of the page.
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/ - this site features a free ovulation chart.
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Good luck you guys
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thanks for the wealth of info. I wasnt aware that people use PrEP while attemtpting to get pregnant. We tried this weekend and obviously didnt use PrEP; I hope she's OK. As I mentioned, I have been undetectable for 7-8 months and I hope that counts for something. I am going to try not to worry over this, and hope for the best.
Hi R,
I'm wondering if you're doing this with your hiv doctor's knowledge? I ask because if my memory serves me well, there is another forum member who conceived with his wife naturally, and I think that aside from his being undetectable, his wife also took PrEP - which is taking one dose of meds before engaging in sex. This is something you may want to discuss with your doctor for added protection and to ease your worries. If you use the forum search engine with "pregnant" and/or "pregnancy", you may be able to find where this has been discussed.
But yes, it's true that many couples are getting pregnant this way now days (and without the PrEP) and doing it without the woman ending up positive.
I would suggest that you make sure she's well-lubricated - either naturally, or with some help from a water-based lube - before having sex. She should also have a recent full pelvic exam to make sure she doesn't have any underlying issues and is physically healthy. Make sure her OB/GYN doc is sympathetic to your needs - some aren't and I'd hate for her to have to deal with a judgemental and/or uninformed doctor. Your hiv doc may be able to give you a referral to an OB/GYN who is hiv-friendly and hiv-experienced.
Good luck! I look forward to hearing how you get on.
Ann
Oh, and PS - I don't know how much you're researched this, but some couples use a method recommended by fertility clinics to enhance their chances of conception. When this method is used by poz/neg couples, they only have unprotected sex when the woman is in the fertile period of her cycle and use condoms the rest of the time, when she's less likely to conceive anyway. Something for you two to look into, if you haven't already. Here's some links to get you started, and you can Google temperature + ovulation to find more.
http://www.ez-fertility.co.uk/ovulation.html
http://www.babycentre.co.uk/preconception/suspectingaproblem/howtochartyourtemp/
http://www.womens-health.co.uk/charting.html
http://infertility.about.com/od/tryingtoconceive101/ss/howtoBBTchart.htm - be sure to check out the many related links at the bottom of the page.
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/ - this site features a free ovulation chart.
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R,
You're welcome!
If you're thinking of using PrEP, make sure you talk to your doctor first - don't just give her some of your meds. Some of the meds used to treat hiv are unsuitable for a woman who is trying to get pregnant. You want to make sure you're using the correct meds at the correct dosage.
And don't forget to look into the ovulation thing.
Ann
PS - I had a look at your posting history and discoverd I'd already given you links to other forum threads that discuss conception in poz/neg couples. To refresh your memory:
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=26774.msg332242#msg332242
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There was a study that found a connection between Lactobacillus bacteria levels in the vagina and lower levels of HIV. Even though these were women who were already HIV+, there is an argument to be made that increased levels of Lactobacillus can maybe also prevent transmission. My point is: it won't hurt to take some probiotics! This is something that can benefit everyone, male or female, with or without HIV but it may have additional benefits for women with HIV lowering their vaginal HIV levels and as a prevention for transmission for women without HIV.
Bacteria may slow HIV transmission
Beneficial bacteria found in healthy women help to reduce the amount of vaginal HIV among HIV-infected women and make it more difficult for the virus to spread, boosting the possibility that "good bacteria" might someday be tapped in the fight against HIV.
The findings come from physicians and scientists at the University of Washington and the University of Rochester Medical Center, who worked together in an effort to learn more about how HIV survives and spreads from person to person. The study involving 57 women was done in Seattle and Rochester through the Women's HIV Interdisciplinary Network (WHIN), which is based at the University of Washington.
The team studied the vaginal environment, examining the mix of bacteria that reside there and taking into account several other factors. Physicians tracked the level of HIV virus in the vagina as well as infection by common sexually transmitted diseases like trichomoniasis, gonorrhoea and chlamydia, and other more common types of vaginal infections.
Physicians also monitored the levels of beneficial bacteria known as Lactobacillus in the vagina, as well as hydrogen peroxide, which is produced by the bacteria and hinders the virus. They also measured the level of HIV in the women's blood and the rate of progression of the disease overall.
The team found that women with hydrogen-peroxide-producing Lactobacillus in the vagina had lower levels of HIV virus in genital secretions - what physicians call the genital viral load. Physicians know that the lower the level of HIV in the sexual tract, the less likely that the virus will be spread from person to person through sexual contact.
Scientists have previously recognised from laboratory studies that Lactobacillus might give women some natural protection against HIV. The bacteria, commonly found in most women, bind to the virus and secrete hydrogen peroxide. The bacteria are a close cousin of the Lactobacillus bacteria found in the small intestine, a type of "good" bacteria widely found in yogurt.
While previous work in the laboratory has indicated that Lactobacillus might help prevent HIV infection in women, the current study actually links, in women, decreased levels of the virus in the vagina with the presence of Lactobacillus that produce hydrogen peroxide there.
"The research opens up some doors," said Luque. "Sexual activity is the most common mode of transmission of HIV. Perhaps we can make it less likely to spread by somehow taking advantage of good bacteria as a natural way to stop HIV and prevent transmission. These findings are striking, though preliminary, and should be looked at further."
MORE:
http://www.scientistlive.com/European-Science-News/Biotechnology/Bacteria_may_slow_HIV_transmission/19683/
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Thanks so much! you guys are awesome!!!!
There was a study that found a connection between Lactobacillus bacteria levels in the vagina and lower levels of HIV. Even though these were women who were already HIV+, there is an argument to be made that increased levels of Lactobacillus can maybe also prevent transmission. My point is: it won't hurt to take some probiotics! This is something that can benefit everyone, male or female, with or without HIV but it may have additional benefits for women with HIV lowering their vaginal HIV levels and as a prevention for transmission for women without HIV.
Bacteria may slow HIV transmission
Beneficial bacteria found in healthy women help to reduce the amount of vaginal HIV among HIV-infected women and make it more difficult for the virus to spread, boosting the possibility that "good bacteria" might someday be tapped in the fight against HIV.
The findings come from physicians and scientists at the University of Washington and the University of Rochester Medical Center, who worked together in an effort to learn more about how HIV survives and spreads from person to person. The study involving 57 women was done in Seattle and Rochester through the Women's HIV Interdisciplinary Network (WHIN), which is based at the University of Washington.
The team studied the vaginal environment, examining the mix of bacteria that reside there and taking into account several other factors. Physicians tracked the level of HIV virus in the vagina as well as infection by common sexually transmitted diseases like trichomoniasis, gonorrhoea and chlamydia, and other more common types of vaginal infections.
Physicians also monitored the levels of beneficial bacteria known as Lactobacillus in the vagina, as well as hydrogen peroxide, which is produced by the bacteria and hinders the virus. They also measured the level of HIV in the women's blood and the rate of progression of the disease overall.
The team found that women with hydrogen-peroxide-producing Lactobacillus in the vagina had lower levels of HIV virus in genital secretions - what physicians call the genital viral load. Physicians know that the lower the level of HIV in the sexual tract, the less likely that the virus will be spread from person to person through sexual contact.
Scientists have previously recognised from laboratory studies that Lactobacillus might give women some natural protection against HIV. The bacteria, commonly found in most women, bind to the virus and secrete hydrogen peroxide. The bacteria are a close cousin of the Lactobacillus bacteria found in the small intestine, a type of "good" bacteria widely found in yogurt.
While previous work in the laboratory has indicated that Lactobacillus might help prevent HIV infection in women, the current study actually links, in women, decreased levels of the virus in the vagina with the presence of Lactobacillus that produce hydrogen peroxide there.
"The research opens up some doors," said Luque. "Sexual activity is the most common mode of transmission of HIV. Perhaps we can make it less likely to spread by somehow taking advantage of good bacteria as a natural way to stop HIV and prevent transmission. These findings are striking, though preliminary, and should be looked at further."
MORE:
http://www.scientistlive.com/European-Science-News/Biotechnology/Bacteria_may_slow_HIV_transmission/19683/
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I can understand why you are so scared, but let me give you my take on this if I may.
I am negative. I have been tested not just with the antibody test, but with PCR and bDNA, and am definitely negative. I have a healthy respect for HIV and always play safe. I have done everything in my power to educate myself regarding HIV and its transmission -- I have read medical journals, the gay press, papers published by doctors, etc., and I have consulted my physician (an expert in Infectious Diseases).
If I knew -- definitively -- that my partner was HIV+ but was also undetectable, then I would have absolutely no qualms about having unprotected sex with him. I know that this sounds like one hell of a statement, but one thing I have learned is that fear MUST yield to reason if a person is to live a decent life, and not be afraid all the time.
HIV is not easy to catch. If I knew for fact that my partner was undetectable and had been so for six months or more, I would not be worried about contracting HIV from him through unprotected sex...
That is just my take on this situation. Congratulations on your bravery and integrity, and good luck!
PHILIP
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thanks for that reminder. I totally overlooked your links. I found them really informative and helpful. Thank you!
R,
You're welcome!
If you're thinking of using PrEP, make sure you talk to your doctor first - don't just give her some of your meds. Some of the meds used to treat hiv are unsuitable for a woman who is trying to get pregnant. You want to make sure you're using the correct meds at the correct dosage.
And don't forget to look into the ovulation thing.
Ann
PS - I had a look at your posting history and discoverd I'd already given you links to other forum threads that discuss conception in poz/neg couples. To refresh your memory:
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=26774.msg332242#msg332242
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thanks so much for this! its really helpful and encouraging! thanks again.
I can understand why you are so scared, but let me give you my take on this if I may.
I am negative. I have been tested not just with the antibody test, but with PCR and bDNA, and am definitely negative. I have a healthy respect for HIV and always play safe. I have done everything in my power to educate myself regarding HIV and its transmission -- I have read medical journals, the gay press, papers published by doctors, etc., and I have consulted my physician (an expert in Infectious Diseases).
If I knew -- definitively -- that my partner was HIV+ but was also undetectable, then I would have absolutely no qualms about having unprotected sex with him. I know that this sounds like one hell of a statement, but one thing I have learned is that fear MUST yield to reason if a person is to live a decent life, and not be afraid all the time.
HIV is not easy to catch. If I knew for fact that my partner was undetectable and had been so for six months or more, I would not be worried about contracting HIV from him through unprotected sex...
That is just my take on this situation. Congratulations on your bravery and integrity, and good luck!
PHILIP
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thanks for the wealth of info. I wasnt aware that people use PrEP while attemtpting to get pregnant. We tried this weekend and obviously didnt use PrEP; I hope she's OK. As I mentioned, I have been undetectable for 7-8 months and I hope that counts for something. I am going to try not to worry over this, and hope for the best.
I think you should be doing this with doctor's guidance and support.
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Its too late for that, and to be honest, doctor's dont offer much guidance on this, and further, while i acknowledge doctors have expertise we do not, I have never been one to run to a doctor. The reason most people try on their own is because doctors are unwilling to advise couples trying to conceive naturally.
I think you should be doing this with doctor's guidance and support.
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Its too late for that, and to be honest, doctor's dont offer much guidance on this, and further, while i acknowledge doctors have expertise we do not, I have never been one to run to a doctor. The reason most people try on their own is because doctors are unwilling to advise couples trying to conceive naturally.
R,
Going to a doctor about a serious health issue - and trying to conceive in a poz/neg relationship is a serious health issue - is not "running to a doctor". (you men and your aversion to doctors - honestly!!!)
If you think your doctor is going to be judgemental about this - then find a doctor who will be understanding. You won't really know what your doctor's views are until you talk to him/her - and many doctors now days are supportive of poz people having families. Arm yourself with a print-out of the Swiss study and go TALK about it!
I've stressed to you earlier in this thread that you need to be speaking to BOTH your doctors - your hiv doc and her OB/GYN - because knowing men, I was afraid you were trying to be a typical man and cut your doctor out of the equation. Not a smart thing to do when there are potentially TWO other people's health at stake here - your woman and your child.
Wise up and talk to your doctor about this before it really IS "too late"!
Ann
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I should have clarified: what I meant to say was, i have had many conversations with credible Doctors like Joel Gallant, and have consulted via email with many doctors from TheBody.com. So I am not going into this blind. Most of them say its risky but it should be OK, some have suggested sperm washing, some have cited the Swiss study, etc etc. There's not really much else they can tell me. My GF knows the risk as do I, and we are well aware of the possibility of several outcomes. My experience with a great number of doctors is they are really unsympathetic and are quick to prescribe antibiotics and get you out of their office as soon as possible. On this issue, there really isnt much a doctor can say that I dont already know. I dont feel like doctors are these sages you can run to. The last four doctors I had, although recognized to be leaders in their field (HIV), have all come up short in some way or the other. There have been times when I made them aware of things they should have already known about HIV as it applies to my situation. Thus I turned to the Swiss study, dingowarrior, and people who have actually conceived already.
What I mean by "its too late" is that my wife and I have already started this thing, so it is what it is. We are hoping for the best.
R,
Going to a doctor about a serious health issue - and trying to conceive in a poz/neg relationship is a serious health issue - is not "running to a doctor". (you men and your aversion to doctors - honestly!!!)
If you think your doctor is going to be judgemental about this - then find a doctor who will be understanding. You won't really know what your doctor's views are until you talk to him/her - and many doctors now days are supportive of poz people having families. Arm yourself with a print-out of the Swiss study and go TALK about it!
I've stressed to you earlier in this thread that you need to be speaking to BOTH your doctors - your hiv doc and her OB/GYN - because knowing men, I was afraid you were trying to be a typical man and cut your doctor out of the equation. Not a smart thing to do when there are potentially TWO other people's health at stake here - your woman and your child.
Wise up and talk to your doctor about this before it really IS "too late"!
Ann
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I was looking at Gallant's site and there is a new question on this subject.
LINK:
http://www.hopkins-hivguide.org/q_a/patient/recent_questions/sperm_washing__risks_overtime__support_groups.html?contentInstanceId=486018&siteId=7151
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RJANE,
I dont know if you recall our pm's about this matter...But my wife and I are living proof that people in our circumstance can indeed concieve naturally without transmissin to our spouse.
Provided you meet the criteria.
We tried 5 times with sucess on the 5th attempt. All times my wife tested negative. We now have a beautiful baby girl. She did take TRUVADA during ovulation,as a safety procaution. But there is no way to find out if it was that that protected her or the fact that I'm undetectable.
Good luck,keep your spirits high and all will be ok.
This is some jouney you and yours are taking,but in the end,it'll be worth it.
dingowarrior
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Hey Dingo,
Thanks for weighing in. I thought I remembered someone's wife taking PrEP! :)
R, good luck to the both of you.
Ann
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Hey Dingo,
Thanks for weighing in. I thought I remembered someone's wife taking PrEP! :)
R, good luck to the both of you.
Ann
Anytime Ann :)
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Winging it without the supervision of a doctor seems grossly irresponsible, but hey, its you and your wife's decision. If there are ways to reduce risk, such as HAART for the wife, or sperm washing, i don't understand why you are poo-pooing them because of your pretentious judgement about doctors character.
Finally, the Swiss study does not say "wing it" and tell us - is it specifically about conceiving, or just intercourse in serodiscordant relationships.
And finally, the Swiss study subjects were under VERY careful and regular medical surveillance. Thats why there was no transmission.
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Ooops, wrong post, sorry!
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The Swiss study states that people who are undetectable for at least six months are not infectious. Period.
quote: Winging it without the supervision of a doctor seems grossly irresponsible, but hey, its you and your wife's decision. If there are ways to reduce risk, such as HAART for the wife, or sperm washing, i don't understand why you are poo-pooing them because of your pretentious judgement about doctors character.
Finally, the Swiss study does not say "wing it" and tell us - is it specifically about conceiving, or just intercourse in serodiscordant relationships.
And finally, the Swiss study subjects were under VERY careful and regular medical surveillance. Thats why there was no transmission.
This is answer from a well respected HIV+ physician. That is, he is a doctor, he is well respected in the medical community, and is HIV+:
Hi Dr. Bob,
Have you seen the story, reported today, that Swiss researchers are saying that HIV "cannot" be transmitted from an HIV-positive sex partner to an HIV-negative sex partner -- at least when they are in a stable relationship? There are a few caveats, of course, but on its face it sounds like a pretty bold and nearly absolute statement.
Here is a link to the story:
http://aidsmap.com/en/news/4E9D555B-18FB-4D56-B912-2C28AFCCD36B.asp
I would love to hear your opinion!
Response from Dr. Frascino
Hello,
Oh yes, I've seen it. In fact, the phone has been ringing off the hook since it hit the broader media markets. The statement in the Bulletin Des Médecins Suisses was made by the Swiss AIDS Commission after careful review of four studies that focused heavily on heterosexual couples and vaginal sex. The report suggested HIV-positive folks on potent and effective antiretroviral drugs who are adhering to their treatment regimen and who have suppressed their HIV plasma viral load to an undetectable level for at least six months and who do not have other concurrent sexually transmitted infections, are not sexually infectious, i.e., they cannot transmit HIV through sexual contact. This really is not such astounding news. We have been saying for quite some time that suppressing the HIV plasma viral load reduces the risk of HIV transmission significantly.
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Winging it without the supervision of a doctor seems grossly irresponsible, but hey, its you and your wife's decision. If there are ways to reduce risk, such as HAART for the wife, or sperm washing, i don't understand why you are poo-pooing them because of your pretentious judgement about doctors character.
Finally, the Swiss study does not say "wing it" and tell us - is it specifically about conceiving, or just intercourse in serodiscordant relationships.
And finally, the Swiss study subjects were under VERY careful and regular medical surveillance. Thats why there was no transmission.
I guess you didnt read that I reached out to a few doctors who specialize in dealing with HIV patients: there is nothing to supervise; as long as I am taking my meds to remain undetectable, there is nothing to supervise. . They informed me of the risk involved, said "have at it, we cant sanction this," and that's it. So my wife and I did our own research, reached out to people like dingowarrior who successfully conceived without infection, and made our own decision.
In re your comments about the Swiss study, they basically followed people who agreed to be involved in the study. None of those people took PrEP drugs; they all conceived naturally.
As far as my "pretentious judgment" about my doctor's character; i observed their character and assessed that they would not be helpful during the process. I did not reach out to them hoping they would be pretentious, rather, that they would be helpful.
The Swiss study states that people who are undetectable for at least six months are not infectious. Period
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As I said, your bodies, god speed and good luck!
You title the forum and open the post with your fears.
In a public forum I don't think we should dismissive of the established medical opinion, and in your case, in your country, whereever that is, you admit that doctors will not "sanction" your choice.
Maybe if you lived in Switzerland and were followed by those doctors in the study, they would saction it.
That group said "sperm washing" was no longer warranted -- eg. that is an opinion based on the evidence that HIV is not transmitted. But that group of researchers did NOT do a controlled research into serodiscordant couples trying to conceive by assisted (HAART, spermwashing) versus unassisted methods, that was NOT the subject of the study.
That is why your doctors probably wont sanction your choice. And it is good medicine.
Anyway, all best wishes.
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As I said, your bodies, god speed and good luck!
You title the forum and open the post with your fears.
In a public forum I don't think we should dismissive of the established medical opinion, and in your case, in your country, whereever that is, you admit that doctors will not "sanction" your choice.
Maybe if you lived in Switzerland and were followed by those doctors in the study, they would saction it.
That group said "sperm washing" was no longer warranted -- eg. that is an opinion based on the evidence that HIV is not transmitted. But that group of researchers did NOT do a controlled research into serodiscordant couples trying to conceive by assisted (HAART, spermwashing) versus unassisted methods, that was NOT the subject of the study.
That is why your doctors probably wont sanction your choice. And it is good medicine.
Anyway, all best wishes.
the point is the swiss study states an individual with an undetectable viral load is not infectious. While I am afraid of transmitting the disease, it seems my fears are unwarranted. I'm probably more scared of being a dad! anyway, time will tell and I look forward to be a father. Thanks!
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I'm probably more scared of being a dad!
:D :D :D
I'm sure you'll be just fine. All kids really need is a parent or two who loves them and lets them know they're loved and wanted. Treat your child as you would wish them to treat others (for example, saying please and thank-you to them right from the very beginning) and you won't go far wrong. Kids learn best by example - and that goes for bad examples as well.
I'm looking forward to reading the post where you tell us you're expecting!
Ann
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This is a very serious question
I understand your anxieties re: transmission, even if the risk is very small. Who would want to etc... eh? It's a serious matter...and having kids is serious (and great)...
I do urge you to consider preventative meds for your partner at times of trying for conception. This kinda takes the fund out of the sex but what the hell, better to be safe than sorry. And conception + kids is a longtime project.
The trouble with the studies to date is that the chance of conception is much higher than the risk of transmission of HIV, especially if you are on meds.
Your partner taking 2-3 anti-HIV meds when trying to conceive will practically eliminate the very small risk of transmission. Even tho there are no studies to support this, it's a sound suggestion.
Good luck, and happy families.
- matt
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Hi! Hope all goes well!
I haven't read all the posts... Have you had your sperm count checked?
I have wondered if any of the meds might alter the viability...
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Hi! Hope all goes well!
I haven't read all the posts... Have you had your sperm count checked?
I have wondered if any of the meds might alter the viability...
my sperm count is on the high side and my testosterone is normal.