POZ Community Forums
HIV Prevention and Testing => Do I Have HIV? => Topic started by: hemsky111 on August 11, 2008, 02:48:43 pm
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Hey everyone,
First off I should say that sexually I'm a bit of a germophobe. I met a girl online who sounded quite nice. before ANYTHING sexually I asked her HIV status, and she said that she was negative. AFTER my "exposure", we talked a bit more about it, and she said that she "couldn't remember whether she had unprotected sex with her bisexual ex-boyfriend (who she told me cheated on her, why they broke up) after the last time she tested (she said she was 99% sure she didn't). All in all, she sounded like she might have been lieing, so I freaked ot a bit. I doubt she ever tested and she said that she has had unprotected high risk exposures in her past. I am upset with her dishonesty at first and feel like I could be at risk! I NEVER would have done anything with her if I knew she was lieing!
Okay, now onto what happened. She performed unprotected fellatio on me WITH protection (obviously 100% no risk) and that's where I wanted to keep it. She started licking my perineum, but then licked (lapped at) my anus 2-3 times. I immediately told her I was uncomfortable with that and she stopped. While she was talking I checked her mouth and teeth for blood, but there wasn't any. Her tongue did seem white though, although I don't remember any bleeding sores or anything on it. I asked her if she had any blood in her mouth and she said "no that's gross", so I think it's safe to say that she didn't have any blood to her knowledge. a few minutes later I went to the bathroom, Immediately wiped to see if there was any blood (there was none I could find), and then tried to clean the outside of my anus with soap and water. I checked for sores in the first part of my anus and there was none (non outside either). My anus was sore and irritated when this happened (I suffer from hemmorhoids), although I didn't have any recent bowel movements. (I'm a bit worried about her necklace rubbing against my anus and creating microscopic cuts - I felt it brush up against with a sharp corner, but I know it didn't majorly cut me).
I talked to her to make sure she was HIV- and that's when it became apparent that she may have been lieing. I freaked out and left. I tried to reassure myself that rimming is NO risk, and did ALL the reading I could on it. The advice varied quite a bit. I know nothing in life is 100%, but emotionally, I want to be 100% sure I did not get HIV from this incident. I know 100% that I was negative going into this.
I have been a bit sick, but I will not post ars related questions because I know enough about it to know that it sounds almost nothing like ARS (or the odds would be 1 in a million for it to be some odd form with odd timing).
I wetn and got tested (albeit a little early) at what I believe to be 20 days (it might have been 15 days), and it was negative I know that's really early to test, but it adds reassurance.
some, such as the CDC state that rimming had ONE documented case (I read it and I think it was from the person doing the rimming to the one recieving it, but there was definite INSERTION of the person's tongue) and that it is a theoretical risk, others say it can't happen. I know saliva is no risk, but what about blood mixed with saliva? I know saliva inhibits HIV, but how much would be needed? Would a non-noticible amount be sufficient? I'm a bit worried that she had blood on her tongue (I was reading possibly due to thrush since she had a white tongue and the thrush lesions could have rubbed off and bled). I did as much biological research and I understand that, while I could be wrong, that penetration would be necessary for infection since the outer part of the anus (and about 05.-0.8 cm inside the anus) are covered by skin (albeit thin), so I don't think I was actually exposed to any fluid at all more than likely. I asked some, including the doctors on medhelp, and they told me there wasn't ANY risk at all, but I read some of the threads here, and everyone sounds pretty knowledgeable!
Is this why it is no risk? Does this make sense?:
Odds she was infected: bet. 1:10-1:100
Odds enough blood in her mouth( if any=0): 1:1000-1:10000
Then odds of exp (if it is even possible for being licked only a few times): 1:10000
Then odds any fluid getting into my lower anus/rectum/past the anal sphincters: 1:100-1:1000
Showed no ars (50-80% of people don't, but no ars adds a bit of reassurance): x5
Tested 3 weeks where approx 70-75% of people would have been positive: 75%=x4
Thus, if even possible, my odds of being infected are about:
1:200 000 000 000 to 1: 200 000 000 000 000 (1 in 200 billion to 200 trillion)!
It all just seems too good to be true! Is HIV REALLY that hard to transmit?
So even if it was theoretically possible in this situation, the odds would be around THAT tough? Please tell me I'm correct, as I seem to be having trouble accepting that I had a no risk situation! Thanks SO much in advance!
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You didn't have a risk of oral sex or rimming. Neither ways inwhich HIV is transmitted.
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You are way overreacting about this incident. Neither getting a blowjob nor being rimmed would in anyway put you at risk for HIV transmission.
If you can't let go of this unwarranted fear I suggest you forget about focusing on statisitics and instead invest in some time with a therapist or other professional to address your sex-phobic response. This is not an HIV situation. Period.
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Thanks you guys. I know I need to work at getting over this. So there is NO way that I am infected? Would penetration be necessary for transmission?
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Yes, sexually unprotected penetration would be necessary for transmission.
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Thanks for the info again. Over at medhelp someone posted questing my statistical risk assessment and Dr. HHH replied as follows:
First, to answer the query as posted in the title you chose for your question: Yes, HIV generally is "this hard to transmit". Among all the STDs, it is the least efficiently transmitted. And I definitely agree that many (most?) people "have an inflated [estimate of the] risk of HIV transmission".
Second, I agree in general terms with your assessment of the odds and the mathematic calculation of transmission transmission risk. I also agree with your reasoning at the end: even if some of the assumptions are way off base, the final conclusion isn't much different. If the final risk calculation were calculation 100 times higher, it still would qualify as "zero for practical purposes".
Finally, no data exist on the risk associated with rimming. All we know is that few if any cases have ever been attributed to oral-anal contact, and that HIV is not generally present in saliva or feces. Common sense says that a "lighter touch" would be even lower risk than more vigorous contact, but that's a personal judgment, not data.
I hope this helps. Best wishes-- HHH, MD
I'm wondering why he commented that no penetration does not = not possible (or would this be due to being extra conservative). He also said few, if any? I did read one report from 1992 of possible transmission, what's up with that?
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What are the odds that you are gonna listen to what you've already been told and quit trying to beat a dead horse?
1 in a 1,000?
1 in a 1,000,000?
1 in 200 trillion?
If you're wondering about HHH's answer, then ask HHH. And no, we aren't going to keep dragging out responses to whatever such & such "report" you read about somewhere on the net from whatever year about "possible transmission". That means just what it sounds like it means: alleged, unsubstantiated, anecdotal & dubious at best.
Nothing you offered presents a risk for HIV transmission, so move on.
kthx.
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Hey, sorry about the other thread!
I read on another site that HIV can pass through intact skin with no cuts if the sin is not thick skin (ie can pass through the outside of the lips or outside bit of the anus). This is NOT true correct? I thought HIV could only get into the bloodstream via mucous membrane contact and more easilly via an open, bleeding wound...
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Hem,
No, it is not true that hiv can pass through intact skin and the thickness doesn't matter.
Have you bothered to read the Transmission Lesson yet? If you did, you'd know the score. There's a link to the Trasmission Lesson in our Welcome Thread (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=220.0) - make sure you READ and ABIDE by the posting guidelines found there while you're at it.
Get reading!
Ann
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Thanks a lot Ann, I think I just need to give my head a shake. To clarify, "intact" skin means skin that not bleeding, correct (ie a surface scratch/irritation/nonbleeding abrasion would not count as unintact skin)?
Hem,
No, it is not true that hiv can pass through intact skin and the thickness doesn't matter.
Have you bothered to read the Transmission Lesson yet? If you did, you'd know the score. There's a link to the Trasmission Lesson in our Welcome Thread (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=220.0) - make sure you READ and ABIDE by the posting guidelines found there while you're at it.
Get reading!
Ann
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in·tact (n-tkt) (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/intact)
adj.
1. Remaining sound, entire, or uninjured; not impaired in any way.
2. Having all physical parts, especially:
a. Having the hymen unbroken.
b. Not castrated.
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in·tact (n-tkt) (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/intact)
adj.
1. Remaining sound, entire, or uninjured; not impaired in any way.
2. Having all physical parts, especially:
a. Having the hymen unbroken.
b. Not castrated.
So your saying even a small scratch in someones skin could result in potential infection, or irritation, since the skin would be "impaired"?
I thought for HIV to get into the blood stream through skin that it would have to have a way INTo the bloodstream (ie you would ahve to have a bleeding cut)?
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Okay, after doing some reading I'm now freaking out! Since my anus was sore and irritated (although not bleeding), I put myself at risk! Since the perianal skin was irritated, it was NOT intact, and thus HIV could have infected me!
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Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.
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Hem,
Knock it off. Saliva isn't infectious. Not one person has ever been infected through a rim job and you certainly aren't going to be the first, no matter how special you think you are.
You didn't have a risk.
You are a self-admitted sexual germophobe. We cannot help you with that here. Find yourself a counselor so you can free yourself of this phobia.
And please take note of our posting guideline Rodney so thoughtfully quoted for you. Consider yourself warned.
Ann
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I sincerely apologize. I am not inadvertantly trying to be a pest, I am trying to get over this. I just don't think I understand the science behind why I am not at risk. I know saliva itself is not infectious, but wouldn't a bit of blood, especially on her tongue be infectious if it got into my blood stream? I know irritated skin would realistically pose no risk as it would be VERY hard for such a low concentration to infect me, but what if I had an anal fistula or small cut that I didn't notice (such cuts are hard to heal and would likely still be an open wound). I am just having a disconnect with how it is actually ZERO risk and not low risk, so if ANYONE could explain how I am not at risk in this situation I would be very grateful! Is it that a bigger cut or skin irritation would be needed, or is it that even with blood, a bit of saliva wold render that blood minimal infection-wise?
Hem,
Knock it off. Saliva isn't infectious. Not one person has ever been infected through a rim job and you certainly aren't going to be the first, no matter how special you think you are.
You didn't have a risk.
You are a self-admitted sexual germophobe. We cannot help you with that here. Find yourself a counselor so you can free yourself of this phobia.
And please take note of our posting guideline Rodney so thoughtfully quoted for you. Consider yourself warned.
Ann
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hem,
Not only is saliva not infectious, but it also contains over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that damage hiv and render it unable to infect. For you to be infected via rimming, you would have had to punch her repeatedly in the mouth until she was bleeding profusely before she rimmed you. Even then, transmission would not be guaranteed.
Once again, I recommend you seek counseling for this phobia of yours. It can't be a pleasant thing to live with and we cannot help you in this regard.
Ann
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hem,
Not only is saliva not infectious, but it also contains over a dozen different proteins and enzymes that damage hiv and render it unable to infect. For you to be infected via rimming, you would have had to punch her repeatedly in the mouth until she was bleeding profusely before she rimmed you. Even then, transmission would not be guaranteed.
Once again, I recommend you seek counseling for this phobia of yours. It can't be a pleasant thing to live with and we cannot help you in this regard.
Ann
Thanks Ann (and everyone else),
I'll try my best to get over this!
There is a lot of high pressure going on in my life currently, and this has just been getting to me. I keep thinking that this one lapse in judgement is going to infect me and that if even a bit of the fluid made it's way into my bloodstream.
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Thanks again ANN,
so saliva mixed with a bit of blood is still no risk? How much fluid is typically needed for infection to occur?
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hem,
You've been repeatedly told you weren't put at risk when you were rimmed. Questions about "how much fluid" are irrelevant. Rimming is NOT a risk for hiv infection.
Keep posting about this incident and you'll be given a time out. I won't warn you again.
Ann
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Sorry Ann, I sincerely apologize for using up any more of your guys' time. I am so close to not worrying and am very close to moving on, but I just wanted to confirm these last few things.. PLEASE confirm these few things so I can finally get some mental closure on these horrible fears that have been haunting me:
Just so that I know I'm understanding all of this (I am trying to gain a HEALTHY, RATIONAL view on this, so any help with such endevours is greatly appreciated). I feel I NEED to understand the science behind this to fully move on, so I would REALLY appreciate you answering the following!
So let me see if I have this right:
1) So your all saying that since she said she had no blood in her mouth, that even, given the WORST CASE scenario and she had some sort of mouth lesion/bit her lip or tongue/had bleeding gums/had slightly bleeding thrush, that the saliva would inactivate enough of the virus to make it non-infectious. Even if her tongue that was directly licking me was bleeding a bit then the saliva mixed with it would make it noninfectious.
I know I have read that exposure to someone's mouth is almost always zero. Such exceptions would literally have to include profuse/gushing blood?
2) HIV required VERY specific conditions in order for transmission to occur. Typically it involves a decent amount of fluid transfer during sex, in which penetration is REQUIRED.
3) A cut is pretty much no risk unless it is fresh and bleeding. HIV does not live well outside it's host, and thus even with a lot of mouth bleeding, the perianal area/ outside portion would almost all be air exposed and further make transmission not possible. When you talk about ph changes/air, ect, is this why licking etc is no risk and that penentration is required except in the most extreme of situations for transmission to occur?
4) miniscule cuts / irritation is no risk (in this case) because even if the virus could get in, the conditions of penetration etc aren't met and even some blood exposure would not be enough.
5) While nobody can ever prove that it hasn't happened, there has only been "few if any" cases that have ever even claimed such exposure. It's safe to say that I am NOT going to be the first person in the history of HIV that has been infected this way, especially with such minimal exposure.
I would like to sincerely thank you all on this site. Some people are fine with "no risk" to calm them down, I sadly have required more scientific reasoning. I endevour to have trust in all of you here and move on 100%! Thanks for helping me to do so...
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hem,
We've already answered each and every one of your questions - repeatedly. Re-read your entire thread.
You are NOT going to be the first person to be infected through rimming. End of story.
I'm giving you that time out I warned you about. Do not attempt to create a new account to get around your time out because if you do, you will be permanently banned.
Ann