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Author Topic: Disclosing to Parents / Family  (Read 18670 times)

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Offline David_CA

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  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Disclosing to Parents / Family
« on: June 05, 2006, 08:59:26 am »
Hi guys (and gals),

I've mentioned before that I was diagnosed HIV+ back in March.  I've told most of the sex partners that I've had about this.  Actually, I should say 'we' instead of 'I', as my partner and I have played around together quite a bit; he's poz too.  I've told about six really close friends and my ex, who are all really supportive.  I've always been close to my mom and sister and not telling them is really bothering me.  The multiple sex partners and disclosing to family members is a big part of the problem.  I don't want to go into a lot of the 'dirty' details to my mom, but I don't want her to think my partner or I were cheating on the other.  If I don't mention anything about multiple partners, the natural assumption will be that my partner infected me.  My mom lives in the same town and I see her a lot, so hiding this will be difficult.  I came out to her and my sister about being gay back when I was still married to my ex wife, and they were ok with it.  In fact, they really like my partner.  My partner and I have been together for seven years and he is really a part of the extended family - aunts, uncles, cousins, great aunts, nieces, etc.  This is something that's really bothering me.  I feel like I'm being dishonest and depriving myself of the support of my family.

It's one thing to tell my family that I have this disease.  It's another thing to tell them that I stupidly got it from sexual transmission.  It's a much bigger deal to tell them that I got it from outside the relationship.  I'm just hoping that they'll not get stuck on how I got infected but instead concentrate on the fact that I am infected.  How have those in similar situations handled this?  What was the outcome?

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Christine

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  • Posts: 1,069
Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2006, 10:26:06 am »
Hi David,
I found out I was + in '93 and only told my husband. With hindsight, it would have been an easier road for me if I told my closest friends and family. My Mom found out when I was in the ICU 5 years ago. I feel bad about that, it was not fair that she had to find out that way. Day one your daughter might not live, day two she is positive. It was hard for her.

This past year, I disclosed to my two best friends, their husbands and parents. They new I was not well, but did not know 100% what it was, but did suspect it could be hiv. It actually, for as horrible as I replayed possible scenarios in my head, was not that difficult to tell them.

I said, I had something I needed to tell them- and I said it. I did not get into specific details on transmission. They thanked me for telling them, they were glad that the elephant that was in the room during the last year was out. They said they wished I told them earlier, so they could have helped more. They have supported me, and loved me through all of it.

In later conversations, I told them they could ask whatever they wanted, and that is when we spoke about transmission. Personally, for me, I decided they could ask whatever questions they wanted, and I would answer.  But, I do not think it is inappropriate for you to set whatever boundaries you want when discussing the hiv. Explain to them, right now, you can only share a little at a time.

From your post, your family sounds very loving and warm. When the time is right for you to disclose, you will know, and you can set the boundaries on how much you want to share and when. Ask them to respect those boundaries in a loving way, and I think they will.
Christine
Poz since '93. Currently on Procrit, Azithromax, Pentamidine, Valcyte, Levothyroxine, Zoloft, Epzicom, Prezista, Viread, Norvir, and GS-9137 study drug. As needed: Trazodone, Atavan, Diflucan, Zofran, Hydrocodone, Octreotide

5/30/07 t-cells 9; vl 275,000

Offline joemutt

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 10:37:27 am »
I told my mother when I found out June '97, I worked abroad and had to make an urgent trip to the hospital in my hometown, she cried and I told her not to, that I was going to get the meds and survive (bluffing, but hey) I told my three younger siblings (two sisters, one brother) because I feel closest to them. My two older brothers found out because one of them said 'how's your health' (something like 'how are things going" in our language) and I told him and realised they hadn't known. I got nothing but support and more love than before, but I later found out it was hard for my mother, my youngest sister who's in the States, and my younger brother who's a marine. I was glad they too had someone to talk about it, but once I was doing well then they worried less. We never discussed sex or transmission. I haven't told it to my godmother, who since then passed away, I think in order to protect her or not to disappoint her, that has bothered me since.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 10:58:33 am by joemutt »

Offline allopathicholistic

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2006, 10:56:17 am »
I'm just hoping that they'll not get stuck on how I got infected but instead concentrate on the fact

I think most people focus on how to go forward. I think natural curiosity will lead people to ask a few light questions (I was never grilled by anyone) ---I find that people are more interested in the here and now and the future. My family members fall into that category. Guess I underestimated their coolness and life skills

Offline naked_chuck

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2006, 01:08:49 pm »
It's a difficult and very brave thing to do--disclosing.  The truth is you can only tell YOUR TRUTH and try very hard not to worry about how anyone will react.  Easier said than done.  What someone else can or can't "get past" is their own issue, like it or not.  I disclosed to my parents back in '88, and my mother STILL thinks my partner of 18 years "made me sick."  HE'S NEGATIVE!!!!  I can't focus on making her, or anyone else happy about my having AIDS.  Nor can I feel guilty about how I got it!!  Water under the bridge.  Present the facts.  Relieve yourself of the stress and anguish.  Maybe provide some resources for your family to help them cope.  But that, my friend, is all you can do for them!  You cannot control how they're going to feel about it, or respond.  You contracted a serious illness that happened to be through sexual contact.  We're human beings--sexual beings.  It's normal and natural for all of us.  Wrong place, wrong time, wrong person... whatever.  Don't beat yourself up over and over again trying to trace your steps.  Make your peace with honesty and dignity.  That's all you can do.  You have nothing to be ashamed of!!  GOOD LUCK!  I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH!! 

Offline otherplaces

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  • Mutant Super Hero
Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2006, 02:58:14 pm »

Disclosing to my parents was pretty difficult. My parents are conservative christians. It was the first time we actually ever talked about sex. My relationship with my parents is strained in many ways as they never approved of me moving away and trying to make my life as a musician. But I decided that the stress of lying to them about what I was going through was not worth it anymore. They knew I had been very ill but I hadn't told them why. Just some bad flu I told them. But all in all they're good people and provided me a good childhood. I love them and they love me.

Details of transmission are up to you. You're in control. I know it seems like how you got it is a big deal, but as the above posts point out over time it just isn't going to matter anymore. You're just a son or a brother that happens to have a disease.

My parents definitely asked some questions about who I got it from. I kept it simple. Went out, got drunk, went home with a stranger, had sex. To their credit they never accused me of being gay. And that the woman was a transexual just doesn't seem like any of their business, nor anything I think they could really understand. At a certain point I did answer their questions about details with, 'It really doesn't matter'.  Some of my friends don't even know the details of how I got hiv. I guess I would tell them if they asked, but it really doesn't matter.

Disclosure is up to you. But for me it was like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders. And while it's been hard for my parents and sometimes their prodding on what am I going to do with my life now has been annoying...they've really been very supportive.

I think the important factor in the equation is YOU. Is this going to help YOU? You shouldn't worry so much about what they will think. You're the one in crisis, not them.



Offline Joe K

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  • Posts: 5,821
  • 31 Years Poz
Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2006, 03:00:52 pm »
Hey David,

Yes disclosing to family, especially parents, can be quite a challenge, but I just don't understand why you have to tell her HOW you got it.  If you feel it's really important, then just tell her you assume it was sexually transmitted and that you don't know when, so that might evade all those questions about the relationship.  But I still have to wonder why you have to disclose the HOW.

I often wonder if cancer patients get queried about how they got their cancer, because it just doesn't seem to have any relevance.  You've done the responsible thing by telling past partners and I believe you have the right to not disclose how you got it, because like you said, the important part is that I'm infected.

I had the same conversation with my folks and I skipped how I got it and let them draw their own conclusions.  Then again, they weren't the best supporters, so I suggest that you just go with your gut.

Offline GSOgymrat

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,122
  • HIV+ since 1993. Relentlessly gay.
Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2006, 03:26:18 pm »
I have not told my parents and I don't plan to. Initially I didn't tell them because I didn't want to deal with the inevitable blaming of my partner. In the early years I waffled back and forth on whether I should tell them. My parents are now in their 80s, I'm healthy and I see no reason to tell them. I'm not sick and don't need their support regarding HIV. I don't feel a burden of keeping a secret because HIV doesn't play that big of a role in my life right now. Maybe it's my WASPy background but I would never think to discuss details of my sex life with my parents and I sure don't want to hear about theirs!

Offline sdcabincrew74

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2006, 03:58:32 pm »
Well, my folks kind of figured it out on their own when I was hospitalized with PCP.  I mean, what gay 30 year old ends up in the hospital with a lung infection?  Yeap, only us poz boys and girls.  Plus, since my partner had to work, I needed help around the house while i was healing.  There were two things worse than telling them:

1.  Explaining how my partner was neg and I was poz...
2.  Convincing my partner's parents that I would not make him sick....

I could have never gotten as far as I have without my family and glad I "told" them.
The difference between an overnight and a layover is luck!

Offline heartforyou

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  • Posts: 1,132
  • I must be a survivor in many ways...
Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2006, 04:23:22 pm »
Well, when I ended up in hospital in 1995 with some "lunginfection" my parents never came to see me.
I knew then that they were afraid of the truth.

I called my sister and the first thing for her was to ask me, in tears, how I had lived with that secret for so many years. Her daughters were age 16, 14 and 8. She told them the truth. They wrote me the most beautiful poems and letters, full of teenage girllove and so open.... Thank you sis for that task.

On my return from the hospital I stopped by at my parents. They were in their early seventies then.
I told them to sit down and that I had an announcement to make :
Mom and dad, I have HIV and I am not going to live much longer.
Mom sobbed and dad said : I knew.

But after the first tears mom said these historic words. The same she had pronounced  20 years before, when I told her I was gay : you are our son in the first place and we love you.
We hugged and I realised I was more afraid  to touch them as they were to touch me.

My mom, who is 82 now, will regularly ask me about my labresults and even call me to say they have found new drugs.
But they asked me one thing : to let this be their secret in the family: It was hard , but I respected it.

Disclosing to my friends happened one by one.
I remember Ann, who's son had a cold and sweetly winked at me when I visited them: I thought he was afraid of me, but then I heard he had asked his mom ( he was 6 then) wether his cold was a threat for my health.

Nowadays when I disclose, it is mostly me that has to hug the party involved.
I tell them to take their time to let it sink in and that, NO, I am not going to die.

And I always finish by telling them : I am still Herman, still your friend in the first place , and now you know that I have HIV.

One other friend made me really cry. Upon my disclosure he said : for the first time in my life, AIDS has a face.

And I am glad I am still around here to tell you my story.

Just be confident.  Mothers especially have that sixth sense. They simply know.

Hermie
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 04:34:38 pm by heartforyou »
Infected 1983. Diagnosed in 1987 and still kicking
Dovato once daily. Hydrea

Happiness is the freedom of breathing fresh air every day.

Offline David_CA

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  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 04:36:29 pm »
Hey David,

Yes disclosing to family, especially parents, can be quite a challenge, but I just don't understand why you have to tell her HOW you got it.  If you feel it's really important, then just tell her you assume it was sexually transmitted and that you don't know when, so that might evade all those questions about the relationship.  But I still have to wonder why you have to disclose the HOW.

I often wonder if cancer patients get queried about how they got their cancer, because it just doesn't seem to have any relevance.  You've done the responsible thing by telling past partners and I believe you have the right to not disclose how you got it, because like you said, the important part is that I'm infected.

I had the same conversation with my folks and I skipped how I got it and let them draw their own conclusions.  Then again, they weren't the best supporters, so I suggest that you just go with your gut.

Joe, being in what appears a monogamous relationship is the issue.  If it's truly monogamous, then my partner must have infected me.  I absolutely do not want anybody to think my partner infected me, because he didn't.  It's almost like I have to say it came from outside the relationship, which is the part that bothers me.  I hope that I explained that better than it sounds when I read it.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Sky

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2006, 01:16:39 am »
I've been poz three years now...everyone in my life knows friend wise, even my brother...I haven't been able to gather the ability to tell my parents yet, mainly since I live with them currently.  Coming out to them that I was gay stirred up enough dust that I dread to think what this will cause.  My brother knows, but even my doc advised me that it is probably best for me to wait.  I'd really like to tell them, however, know in my gut that this isn't the right time.
Poz since 2003.

Offline emeraldize

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2006, 01:15:38 am »
In the less than three years since diagnosis, I've shared my status with everyone in my immediate family. The last two siblings, who are not as close to me, were told when I took a moment to pretend being them learning the news from anyone else, but me. And, I decided, in that moment, I was not giving them a chance to possibly be any closer to me by experiencing my truth. They were sweet and supportive. Tears welled up in my brother's eyes. My younger sister said " I'm sad for you." We have the same relationship as before, no more, no less. What is most important is that I'm comfortable knowing we're all on the same page, no family secrets and no contribution on my part to dysfunction by simply imagining their recoiling or rejection. It didn't happen and I think I knew it wouldn't. The imagination is a wild place to create outcomes. Intention is key. I wanted an informed family just as I would want to be informed if any of them were saddled with a burden they wanted to share. I fully respect that anyone contemplating disclosure is the best judge of timing and content. I do believe it is good for the immune system to share this with a supportive family.

Offline Lisa

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2006, 12:00:46 pm »
Hi David,
Yesterday would have been my father's 80th birthday. When I was diagnosed about ten years ago, he was the first person I went to. I cannot imagine how difficult this dilemma is for you.
You may not be giving your mom enough credit. You don't really have to go into the details, except to explain that at some point you had a lapse of judgement. You are human after all, as are your family.
It will not change who you are, or how much they love you. If you, and your partner have a good foundation, then you have nothing to fear except fear itself.( can't remember the famous person that said that)
I wish you well, and a closer relationship with your family, but I suspect they will love you just the same regardless.
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2006, 01:16:38 pm »
David, I do appreciate your dilemma and it is one that is obviously shared.

I urge you to keep it simple when you get around to talking to your family. Think about whether you are better off speaking to each person individually or together. The most important thing to emphasize is not the how it happened but rather that you are receiving appropriate medical care and you exepct to be around for a good longtime to come. That's really what people who care about you want to know.

It seems to me you're feeling defensive about the matter. Maybe you are judging yourself as having done something wrong. Only you can know that. ....what I call "an inside job."

What I do know is that even with your close relatives you're entitled to maintain some privacy. If someone asks you when it occured, why not just say you're not certain about when in the past it happened and you don't want to focus on that -- that you are more concerned with living well now and that you welcome their support. If anyone presses you further there's nothing wrong with saying, "Please. I really don't want to get into that." And let 'em think or conjecture what they will.

Good luck with this and keep us posted on how it is going.

Cheers,   
Andy Velez

Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2006, 09:00:47 am »
I know I felt SO much better after telling my parents. As some others (otherplaces and MtD) stated, it was like a twenty ton truck was instantly removed from my shoulders.

What I did with my parents was when they started asking "how," I kept it simple. "I was bleeding in the back of my mouth from my surgery (wisdom teeth removed, for those that didn't read my first post), and I didn't know it. Any other details I won't go into, but that's how I got it." Maybe you could take a similar approach.

OR

You could just say you don't know when it happened, and then tell them that your partner is HIV-. That leaves the door open for them to assume that it was someone BEFORE your current partner. Just a suggestion. I know it's a lie of omission, but it would take care of not wanting them to assume it was your partner.

I hope for the best, and I know that I felt tons better after disclosing to my folks. I thought it would be a lot better to tell them while I was healthy and nothing wrong then for me to be in the hospital and say, "Oh, Mom, Dad, guess what else? I have HIV." Nuh-uh. They'd have to give both of them a bed as they would have keeled over from shock.

Best of luck, and I sincerely hope they receive it well and back you 150%.

Molten
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

CD4: 555 / 29% / Undetectable - 7 Nov 2006
CD4: 555 / 29% / Undetectable - 5 Feb 2007

Offline jyngfilm

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2006, 11:37:22 pm »
It'll work David....... usta could'nt say this, but, ...bet everyone'll understand. (southern prospective)
love ya dude  ~jordon
munchausen by proxy is not an out in my case

Offline southmetro

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2006, 12:34:53 am »
Do what you feel is right for you. I have NOT told ANYONE except my wife and the people at the clinic. I have not been sick so that isn't a problem. My dad has been dead 16 years now and my mom and all my brothers and sisters live in another state (where I grew up). My children are young (almost 20 and 17) and I feel they would feel a great weight and have to tell someone (a boy friend or girl friend or "best" friend) After that who know who will find out. I feel it is mine and my wife's business and nobody Else's. You may feel different. I don't know if any of my friends or relatives have genital warts, herpes or had any other sexually transmitted bugs. They probably wouldn't want to tell me or anyone else they aren't sleeping with (including their mother or kids) why should HIV be any different? Maybe if I get sick at some point......... I haven't missed a day of work since I converted (I missed a few then, never been so sick) It has been 2 1/2 years and I don't think two people can keep a secret unless one is dead , I worry about my wife when she drinks with a friend. She has kept my/our secret so far..... but I worry still.  I hope you find the courage to tell someone if that's what you want to do, or not if you feel that way. Good Luck!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 12:40:02 am by southmetro »
Pos 2/2004       
Date       CD4  % VL
02/05/04 411 27 277K
04/05/04 507 31 327K
05/03/04 528 32 81.5K
07/05/04 497 27 272K
10/06/04 401 30 109K
01/06/05 493 22 128K
03/07/05 607 27 217K
08/08/05 397 24 123K
11/28/05 345 25 47.8K
01/19/06 419 23 18.1K
03/06/06 371 28 70.8K
Started meds 04/28/06 Sustiva & Truvada
05/01/06 391 20 8090
05/31/06 450 20 131
06/08/06 VL 88
07/31/06 415 26 <50
09/21/06 574 30
11/16/06 498 32
02/12/07 609 35
05/16/07 532 28
08/13/07 652 34
11/0

Offline gaysaywhat

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2006, 01:30:58 am »
Like GSOgymrat I have not told my parents. There's no need for them to worry or my grandparents who are in their 80s. As long as I'm healthy I will spare them the heartache. What I've heard so many times in my life is that you can loose your husband, wife, mom, dad, brother or sister but the hardest thing is losing a child. I'll try and never put them through that pain. That's just me though.

Offline David_CA

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2006, 09:42:49 am »
Thanks for all the feedback and different perspectives.  Let me ask a different question...  How many of you who are parents would want to know if your child was HIV+?  More accurately, if you were HIV- and had never dealt with it at all (like in our pre-HIV days), would you want to know if your child was poz?  I keep wondering if I want to disclose to make myself feel better or because I think they would want to know.  Thanks!

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Teresa

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2006, 09:52:46 am »
I am the mother of a daughter 23 and a son 21. If they had HIV (or any illness) I would want to know. I would want to be there for them to help in anyway that i could. They are my babies..no matter how old they get.

Teresa
Hubby HIV+ 5/5/06
CD4:320
  %: 26.7
 VL: <20
Atripla (started it 8/24/06)

Offline penguin

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2006, 11:30:51 am »
hi david,

what does telling them give you?

what does not telling them deny you?

this is your information; when and if it feels right, you control how much of it they have.

take care
kate

Offline Markmt

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2006, 12:45:35 pm »
Hi David, as i have said in a similar thread, my mum was the first to know about my condition. I then also told my sister and her two kids know too. It went all fine and luckily I did not have to do lots of explaining except about treatment. I think you should go according to what you feel deep down is best, we are all in different circumstances and have to adopt to our own set. I hope all goes well and take care,

mark
"Live to love and love to live."

Leo Buscaglia

Offline otherplaces

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2006, 06:59:59 pm »

David,

My parents actually asked why I didn't tell them sooner.

That's just my experience. It's a hard call, everyone's different.

op

Offline Lisa

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2006, 07:30:00 pm »
I would have no doubt that my kids would feel free to tell me.
I would personally like to know that kind of information. God/dess forbid something serious would happen to you, and the doctors were asking your family if there were any information they could offer to better evaluate you.
I have always been quite open with my kids, and am sure they would be the same with me, but I know that not everyone has that luxury.
If I were your mom, I'd be glad that you trusted me enough to confide in me.
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline Londonguy

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2006, 07:52:41 pm »
So far I have only told a few of my friends and I sometimes feel I have no-one to speak to about it when things get really tough but I manage.  My mum took years to come to terms with me being gay, and when she finally did I promised that I would always be careful.  I think this would be her worst fear come true.  She is a born worrier and I know she would never stop fussing and being worried and since I'm living with her at the moment I couldn't deal with that.

But also, she suffers from multiple sclerosis which can be aggravated by stress.  She is already in so much pain that I would hate to think that I would inflict even more, both mental and physical upon her.  I'd rather keep things to myself than do anything like that to her.

Offline Life

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2006, 09:18:26 pm »
I have always felt it important NOT to keep secrets from anyone.  I felt it important that the people that care about me and those I care about are able to continue to share my life with me and my husband.  There is not a person in my frriendship circle that do not know Eric.  In every instance of revealing my status and my husband status was I not met with warmth and caring.  I am not looking for compassion, I simply do not want to have to dance around topics etc.  I want them to know and be there in the event something where to ever happen to me.   Being HIV pos (in my mind) requires a good support system.  I am blessed to have a Mom and Dad who understand my relationship to William, and also know our status.   I think HIV and AIDS touches everyone in some fashion if you are out or not.  If I can be out, purhaps this will deminish the stigma about it.   I get frightened just like the best of us.  I need to be able to turn and find support immedialy if I need it.  I do not want to burdon my husband in my fears so this allows me to spread the fear until it is deminished.   If I ever loose a friend because of this, well,  thats ok to..  But nothing like that has happened.

Love

Offline Catman

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2006, 09:00:29 pm »
I"ve been positive for 20 years and my relatives don't know about it. If I had children, I would like to know their status but only because I am not going to misjudge them about it.  My parents will not take it well because they have tight minds as to what is correct and what is not. If I tell my parents, my brothers or sister, I'm only going to hear crap from their mouths and lots of finger pointing and wrong interpretations .My mother will overprotect me and I know it will affect her health. I would rather die first than seeing my mother worry herself to death. She loves me dearly. I've been with the same negative partner for the past 13 years and disclosed my status to him before ever having sex with him. To this day he remains negative. I know my relatives will blame him if I ever get sick  but that will be the moment I will have to say the truth to them. At this moment I am on my "salvage" meds because I'm resistant to everything else. I am getting the feeling that disclosing is on its way but only if I end up in the hospital in critical condition. I'm saying this because after being a gym freak with lots of energy all my life, for the past two months I have felt very weak and tired all the time. My meds say they cause this but I'm not feeling myself anyways. I am not going to tell any relatives about my health because I'm selfish about it and it's really none of their business. I don't want their gossip and I don't want their pity. I'll try keeping it to myself until I'm in my deathbed!
Catman

Meow to the birds
Meow to the tree's
Meow to the end
of this dreadful disease...

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2006, 09:17:19 pm »
If my segment shows on a national cable tv network, I'll have to disclose  :-\  not looking forward to it.

Offline alterman

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2006, 03:36:39 am »
I found out when my wife and I went to get our blood test for marriage.That is when the doctor told her and I that I were positive.I was so happy that she didn't have it.We have been married for 21 years.and no one knows about my HIV.She has two childrens from a previous relationship and we have 6 grandchildrens.I
thank the lord everyday for protecting her from when we were having unprotected sex before marriage.

Offline carousel

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2006, 01:15:51 pm »
.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 01:05:21 pm by carousel »

Offline livingpositively

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2006, 06:55:00 pm »
David, I have been having the same dilemma.  I have decided that I will disclose the next time I see my mom which is probably in August when she comes to visit me.  She can be very inquisitive, and I've wondered about the "how" questions as well.  I love what someone posted about setting boundaries.  It really doesn't matter about the how.

Why do you feel like you have to disclose?  For me it's a matter of fairness.  My mom is young, and although I am not sick in anyway, I would hate for her to find out if some kind of OI were to set in and I (or worse yet, someone else) had to tell her.  At least now she can process the concept of having an HIV+ son before something bad (God forbid) happens.  I also think that it's a matter of respect.  If I don't tell her, then I don't give her any credit for being supportive.  I take that option away from her and I don't think that's fair - as a mother and as someone very close to me.

That all said, I am certainly not looking forward to the day I disclose to her, but I will do so none the less.

Shane
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Offline David_CA

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2006, 07:52:50 pm »
David, I have been having the same dilemma.  I have decided that I will disclose the next time I see my mom which is probably in August when she comes to visit me.  She can be very inquisitive, and I've wondered about the "how" questions as well.  I love what someone posted about setting boundaries.  It really doesn't matter about the how.

Why do you feel like you have to disclose?  For me it's a matter of fairness.  My mom is young, and although I am not sick in anyway, I would hate for her to find out if some kind of OI were to set in and I (or worse yet, someone else) had to tell her.  At least now she can process the concept of having an HIV+ son before something bad (God forbid) happens.  I also think that it's a matter of respect.  If I don't tell her, then I don't give her any credit for being supportive.  I take that option away from her and I don't think that's fair - as a mother and as someone very close to me.

That all said, I am certainly not looking forward to the day I disclose to her, but I will do so none the less.

Shane

Shane, those are exactly the reasons I 'need' to disclose to my mom.  Plus, she lives in the same town.  It's not like telling the family I have an STD, like somebody else mentioned.  It's more like telling them I have cancer.  To me, there's a big difference.  I'm going to see her tomorrow night, and we'll see if the time is right.  I had to work myself up to come out as gay 8 years ago, but this is a bit more difficult. 

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline livingpositively

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2006, 09:05:42 pm »
You will know if the time is right.  Maybe easier, maybe more difficult given the fact that you live in the same town.  I am more limited with opportunity, as I live 2000 miles from my mom.

Good luck; I hope it all goes well.  I'm sure it will.   :)

Shane
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Offline whizzer

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2006, 09:34:31 pm »
David,

It is EXACTLY like telling them you got an STD.  Not just any old STD, but the mother of ALL STDs.  That is, unless you are a health care worker and got it from a sharps injury and the PEP didn't work.  Otherwise, it's a disease you got from either sex or IV drug use.  And not just any 'ole sex, but, in the case of gay men, from BUTTFUCKING, usually without taking proper precautions.  Sorry, David, but that just ain't the same as breast cancer.  Don't kid yourself into thinking anyone is going to see it that way.  You'll be telling your mom that a) you were sexually promiscuous and b) stupid.  Such a disclosure may or may not engender feelings of sympathy.

You should also be clear as to exactly WHY you are telling her.  Is it for her benefit, or for yours, or both?  Is she going to benefit from knowing at this time, or are you looking to share your pain?  Is this a way of self-punishment for contracting the virus, a way of assuaging your feelings of guilt? Or is it a burden you cannot bear alone, and must seek out the support of family to get you through?

If you are sure of your mother's response, and are sure she can handle the info, and it makes you feel better, then by all means tell her.  But you should  be circumspect.  How much does she know about HIV?  When faced with the information that her beloved son has what is perceived by the public as a death sentence, how will she handle it?  Will she, in her angst, turn to a sister, brother, or family friend, and confide her fears to them?  Word gets around in a small town, and the next thing you know you might as well put up a billboard.

Remember how you felt when you first learned you were HIV positive?  The feelings of shame and guilt, the profound sadness, the feeling as though a part of yourself was gone forever?  Remember thinking about how you might have gotten it?  Wishing you had done something differently?  Wondering how things went SO wrong?  Well, your family, and especially your mother, are going to have all those same feelings.  It will NOT be like telling them you are diabetic.


You are otherwise healthy, doing well, not on meds, so what's the rush?  You have known about your status for, oh, about three months, right?  Maybe you should give it some time so that you can process and deal with your status in your own mind before sharing it with too many others.  I read somewhere not to make any major life changes for the first  year.  Disclosing to parents and family is a major life change, and not just for you, but for them as well.

Let's look at it this way.  If you were HIV neg and having unprotected sex with multiple partners, would you feel compelled to tell your family that you were at high risk for contracting HIV?  Just to prepare them for what MIGHT happen?  What if you had anal warts, some of which can lead to cancer?  Would you feel compelled to share that info as well?  How about drug-resistant Syphilis?  Chlamydia?  Gonorrhea?

Not telling your family about your medical condition is not lying.  It is being self-sufficient.  When and if there comes a time when it is necessary for them to know, then you tell them.  It won't hurt them any more then than now.

As for myself, I've decided to let the pot simmer for awhile.  For several months after my diagnosis I had the burning urge to confide in my family, but didn't act on it.  I don't feel so compelled to do so now.

-Whizzer

Offline David_CA

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2006, 11:01:46 pm »
Hi Whizzer,

You, and others, bring up some good points.  When I say it's not like an STD but more like cancer, I mean in that most STD's are merely an inconvenience, an embarrassment, something that gets treated and goes away.  Most of 'em aren't with us for life and don't generally effect us permanently.  I'm aware that it's not like breast cancer. 

About being promiscuous and stupid... without knowing the details of the infection, I'd be reluctant to say anybody was either.  My family tends to be very logical and doesn't tend to jump to conclusions and have a healthy view of sex.  From what others have told me, in person and here, their family's were supportive. 

My family (mom and sister) are very honest about what's going on in their lives.  I don't want to have to lie when an issue comes up, such as this damned seborrheic dermatitis.  When they ask me why do I still have it, I don't have a good reason.  When they ask why I seem a bit down, I have to say that nothing's wrong.  That, to me, is worse than them knowing.  It bothers ME.  Even if I don't tell them now and continue to make up excuses, they'll eventually know I was lying all along and will be hurt that I couldn't tell them earlier.  My family DID wonder why I couldn't tell them I was gay earlier than I did; I know it hurt them (and me) that I kept so many details of my life a secret, but I do understand that this is a bigger issue than coming out as gay.

My entire family (dad, step mom, mom, ex wife, and sister) are in health related fields.  They are all very educated and most of 'em deal, or have dealt, in public health.  They're at least somewhat familiar with HIV.  My mom is the only one who lives here and doesn't talk about family problems to anybody other than the immediate family.  We're very close, by the way!  We generally turn to the immediate family for support, with the exception of my dad and his wife.  The close friends I've disclosed to are, or have been, effected by HIV to an extent.  One is a Dr, one's brother died of AIDS a few years ago (IV drugs), and one is a nurse.  I've been very fortunate to have them and their support. 

I appreciate that you have a different outlook on this, as all family's are different.  I also know a couple of people who didn't tell anybody for the exact reasons that you state.  You know, both now wish they had been more open about it.  One is planning on disclosing finally.  To me, not disclosing to my family is not being self sufficient, it's isolating.  I also appreciate everybody's comments.  I'm still trying to find my way around all this, but think I'm doing pretty well so far.  I'll give it a bit longer and see how I feel then.  I am still planning on disclosing to a few family members, but I won't do it right now.

David
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 08:38:57 am by David_NC »
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2006, 11:12:13 pm »
Quote
From Whizzer:

And not just any 'ole sex, but, in the case of gay men, from BUTTFUCKING...

I will have to point an exception to this statement. I did not get HIV from 'buttfucking' without a condom. I got it from 'giving head' and his pre-cum because he NEVER came in my mouth. Yes, I know what the studies say. However, this ol' homo ALWAYS used a condom for 'buttfucking,' and I ALWAYS checked the condom afterwards to see if it broke - which never did. "Minimal risk" is still a risk.

Just pointing out that there is more ways than 'buttfucking' to acquire this nifty little virus.

Also, not telling them until they "need" to know can have a severe backlash. Say you had to be admitted to the hospital for an OI that could be fatal and the medicine wasn't working. They might "need" to know then, but your parents would already be worried for your life, and somehow, popping the statement, "Oh Mom, Sis, guess what? I have HIV too" just doesn't seem like the most considerate option.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 11:28:07 pm by MoltenStorm »
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

CD4: 555 / 29% / Undetectable - 7 Nov 2006
CD4: 555 / 29% / Undetectable - 5 Feb 2007

Offline Catman

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2006, 10:13:34 am »
Hello David;
          I've read all the posts concerning your question about disclosing ( I posted one also) and everyone has a different view about it. How your family members behave with you on a daily basis is an important factor. If family members are not judgemental about you and are comprehensive about  "different lifestyles" or have been exposed to the hiv topic by work related situations, then I think it would be fine to disclose. A mature and open minded brain is key here. As we have seen on this page, everyone has a different background and some have it easier to disclose than others. Some persons have an ability to adapt to bad news like when being told that someone they love is "positive". Others get angry or offended and make an issue out of it which only makes matters worse. This is not what us hiv+ persons want. We want a loving supportive family with a calm reaction to the news and to perceive their good intentions on helping us when the time comes. Your situation is not as difficult as mine or others on this forum. If I was "inside your jeans" I'd feel pretty comfortable with disclosing to your close relatives, if you think it necessary, that is. If not, wait until the time is right or necessary...good luck!
Catman

Meow to the birds
Meow to the tree's
Meow to the end
of this dreadful disease...

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2006, 11:16:45 am »
a
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 02:07:57 pm by GSOgymrat »

Offline whizzer

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2006, 09:57:17 pm »
Molten,

With regard to HIV/STD and transmission routes in gay men, I was attempting to convey a general public perception.  NOT epidemiological truths.  Sorry I wasn't sufficiently clear.  My personal belief is it does not matter how a person contracted this virus; what is more important is how he/she behaves after finding out.  One method of sexual transmission does not have moral superiority over another.

Also, sorry I didn't define what I meant by "need to know."  I did NOT mean wait to disclose to loved ones when you're slapped in the hospital with an OI, though some may choose to wait that long.  Need to know might be when you see your numbers start to go south, well before you get sick.  Or it might mean when you start medications, or when it becomes clear you can't obtain stable HAART. Then again, it might be when you first find out your status.  What I meant was that in an otherwise healthy individual, there is no big rush.

David,

Sorry to play the devil's advocate so harshly.  With the additional information you provide about your particular family situation, it sounds like they may handle the information just fine.  My family will too, when the time is right for me to tell them.  Well, I hope so anyway but I can't be sure until it happens.  But I have a good friend who disclosed to family and was rejected and cut off.   It hurt him terribly, especially since he was expecting support and got judgement instead.  There are seveal posts on the old boards where people disclosed to what they thought were good friends, only to be hurt when they got rejection instead of support.  That is why I advocate caution.

I wish we lived in a world where people were as knowledgable and understanding as the folks who post in this forum, but alas, that is just not the case.

-Whizzer
 

Offline MoltenStorm

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2006, 10:00:39 pm »
Ok  ;) I don't have to get mah pitchfork now. hehe
"Love is always patient and kind. It is never jealous. Love is never boastful nor conceited. It is never rude or selfish. It does not take offense and is not resentful. Love takes no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth. It is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, adaptation in A Walk To Remember

CD4: 555 / 29% / Undetectable - 7 Nov 2006
CD4: 555 / 29% / Undetectable - 5 Feb 2007

Offline Eldon

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2006, 10:38:17 pm »
David,

When I disclosed, my parents took it well. They reached out to support me about the NOW and the future. My mom didn't care how I got it. She and Dad just accepted it.

Offline David_CA

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Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2006, 10:47:37 pm »
Hi all,
Thanks for the responses; they've all been helpful.  Wizzer, thanks for explaining your earlier post.  Molten, I'm glad that pitchfork won't be needed at this point!   

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline otherplaces

  • Member
  • Posts: 398
  • Mutant Super Hero
Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2006, 12:49:35 am »

David,

I've said this before, but I want to re-emphasize that you're the crucial part of the equation. We often put other's pain in front of our own. But these are extraordinary circumstances. You're the one in crisis.

My ultra-xtian-conservative parents have been supportive. They won't stop calling me asking how I'm doing. My liberal friends were supportive but now distance themselves from me. You can't predict reactions. But I believe that my decision to tell my parents was for me, not necessarily for them. I just needed it out there whatever the consequences.

My point is that David needs to think about David. :) Because you're important.

much love,
brian

Offline DanielMark

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,475
Re: Disclosing to Parents / Family
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2006, 06:52:20 am »
Hi David,

If you've taken the leap and disclosed by now, I hope it went well.

I struggled with the same decision - for about four years after my diagnosis in 1987 - not so much that I am truly close to any of my family, but because I needed to juggle my desire to be free of another "secret" (= stress) and their ability to handle the news.

They have known I’m Gay since I was 16, so strange news from me was not a factor. LOL

Anyhow, telling them of my status hasn’t changed the strained relationships we’ve had for ever. But, neither did it do anything to create a bond. They just never want to discuss anything of any significance. To use a much over a used term, yes my family is and has always been dysfunctional. None of them has asked how I became infected and I wouldn’t tell them anyway. It’s not relevant to them knowing about me having HIV. Some things are private and we’re all allowed privacy.

I think one thing you have in your favour is your family’s medical knowledge. That has nothing to do with personal emotional response, I know, but hopefully it’ll keep minds from imagining the worst sorts of fears.

Wishing you well with your decision,

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

 


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