Miss Calif: Gay marriage answer cost me Miss USA crown

[Miss Philicia]

... words have meaning

[Miss Philicia]

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter if every gay person on the face of the planet has two really limp wrists or not -- they deserve to be treated equally under the law.

END OF DISCUSSION.

[poz4afewyears]

If people don't want others opinions for christ sakes don't ask the question. It's really that simple.

I second that. If you don't want to know how someone feels about something then don't ask.

[Ann]

Ann, was she asked that question? The issues are not the same because we don't know her opinion of mixed race marriages, she wasn't asked that question about mixed race marriages. She was asked about gay marriage which she gave her honest opinion. If people don't want others opinions for christ sakes don't ask the question. It's really that simple.

~bangs head on desk~


~leaves room - with a headache~

[Ann]

I second that. If you don't want to know how someone feels about something then don't ask.

~hits head on doorframe on way out~

[Miss Philicia]

Furthermore, I'm a big, swishy, designer wearing, high pitch voiced, fierce ruling fairy that got AIDS from being really, really promiscuous -- AND I DON'T CARE WHO KNOWS IT.

[komnaes]

.. I'll tell you right now I'd prefer to spend time in the company of a flamboyant man than a macho man. I always want to say to a macho-macho man; get over yourself already! Bloody cave man mentalities I cannot abide.

But have we turned you into a big enough faghag already..? 

[poz4afewyears]

You wrote what you wrote and it's right there on the screen in front of me. Nobody twisted your words, but due to your own ineptness with the language, you were misunderstood. There's a HUGE difference.

Ann

No, I understand the language pretty well, thank you. Just because I am not in a constant state of apology for the things that I have said. And just because when I make a statement I don't end it with "except for...." and list every single person who I know who doesn't fit the mold.
The fact is, based off of all of the different places I have lived and traveled to, Americans are FAR more religious then people from other countries. But wait! My professor isn't religious, and my brother isn't religious, and the manager at the grocery store on the other side of town isn't religious, and the person I tutor isn't religious. No, sorry, not going to say all that. Americans AS A WHOLE are more religious then other people from other countries I have met. Does that mean that there are no religious people in other countries? No, I didn't say that either.

[Ann]

~leans back into room and shouts~

Bigoted behaviour triumphs when good people keep their mouths shut.

~sighs, and returns~

No, I understand the language pretty well, thank you. Just because I am not in a constant state of apology for the things that I have said. And just because when I make a statement I don't end it with "except for...." and list every single person who I know who doesn't fit the mold.
The fact is, based off of all of the different places I have lived and traveled to, Americans are FAR more religious then people from other countries. But wait! My professor isn't religious, and my brother isn't religious, and the manager at the grocery store on the other side of town isn't religious, and the person I tutor isn't religious. No, sorry, not going to say all that. Americans AS A WHOLE are more religious then other people from other countries I have met. Does that mean that there are no religious people in other countries? No, I didn't say that either.

And I bet you anything that if you saw me posting something like "ALL people on Atripla suffer from disabling depression and sleep-issues, you'd pull ME on my blanket statement and you'd be right to do so and tell  me I should have said SOME people suffer from these side-effects.

I see no difference to this and your blanket statements. But whatever. I think I'll go talk to the brick wall in my garden - it would probably make more sense.

But have we turned you into a big enough faghag already..? 

I've been a faghag forever, dahling! 

[komnaes]

Furthermore, I'm a big, swishy, designer wearing, high pitch voiced, fierce ruling fairy that got AIDS from being really, really promiscuous -- AND I DON'T CARE WHO KNOWS IT.

Oh yeah, funny how you don't hear from a lot of wife beating, prostitutes screwing, tobocco chewing macho straight men that got AIDS by being really, really promiscuous -- rarely works the other way round, seems to me.

More power to us queens I say...

Just my opinion, though I wasn't being asked.. now where is that desk for me to hang my head on..

[Miss Philicia]

*sigh*

[RapidRod]

Yes it is fascinating how if one asks questions and you don't like their replies they become racists and bigots. Like us being gay makes us "SPECIAL" and everyone has to agree with us because we are always right and politically correct.

[AlanBama]

The woman was asked how she felt about gay marriage -- she gave her honest opinion, that is true.

The question is, what are we to DEDUCE about her, from her stated opinion?  I deduced that she is a bigot who does not believe that gay people deserve equal treatment under the law.

When I saw her on Access Hollywood (or one of those entertainment shows) I deduced that she felt that Perez Hilton is a big old fag, and what right did he have to ask her that question?

Just my take on it.

[Miss Philicia]

I like how some wish to paint bigotry, whether it be racial or sexuality based in nature, as simply a matter of "political correctness" as opposed to whether or not it's actually moral or even, and mor importantly, legal.

FASCINATING.  But hey, it never surprises me that some want to be apologists while simultaneously pulling the knee pads from the top shelf.

[Ann]

Yes it is fascinating how if one asks questions and you don't like their replies they become racists and bigots.

Well, yeah, if their reply is a racist or bigoted opinion, then it only goes to follow that they are a racist and/or a bigot! Rocket science it ain't!

[ademas]

poz4afewyears and RapidRod...oy vey...
I'm completely lost trying to follow the logic in your arguments.
I'm thinking (at this point) that it's just stuborness.

[David_CA]

The woman was asked how she felt about gay marriage -- she gave her honest opinion, that is true.

The question is, what are we to DEDUCE about her, from her stated opinion?  I deduced that she is a bigot who does not believe that gay people deserve equal treatment under the law.

When I saw her on Access Hollywood (or one of those entertainment shows) I deduced that she felt that Perez Hilton is a big old fag, and what right did he have to ask her that question?

Just my take on it.

Bingo!  I guess she's a bit too young to know about Anita Bryant and how her homophobia killed her career.  I think Alan and I are pretty close in our opinions...from what I posted about it earlier:

If she'd only said that she didn't believe in same-sex marriage but that she understands that other people are different, perhaps things would have turned out differently. 

RapidRod, does it seem like everyone on here attacks your opinions and twists your words so that you are no longer saying what you originally said? Does it seem like people gang up on you when they really don't even understand what it was you were trying to say in the first place?

Personally, I've not had that problem here in over three years, and I'm one of the most opinionated people I know!  Granted, I don't post as often as Rod, the fierce Miss Philicia, or Ann.  I think about what I'm posting and try to consider how it might be interpreted.  There's generally a way to convey 'most any opinion without pissing people off.  If I could offer a bit of helpful advice... feel free to give your opinions while acknowledging that they are only your opinions and not truths and try not to use always, never, all, or none when referring to things or people that are not extremely close to you (and even then qualify what you say).  For example, if you'd said that 'most of the Americans that you've come across have been more religious than the people you've met in other countries,' I'll bet nobody would have bothered to challenge you on it.  This is just a suggestion; feel free to take it or leave it.

[Ann]

Personally, I've not had that problem here in over three years, and I'm one of the most opinionated people I know!  Granted, I don't post as often as Rod, the fierce Miss Philicia, or Ann.  I think about what I'm posting and try to consider how it might be interpreted.  There's generally a way to convey 'most any opinion without pissing people off. 

Just for the record 7,634 of my posts are in the Am I forum, which I consider to be my bit for prevention. If you subtract them, I've only got 4,310 eleswhere, as of this post. 220 of those are in the bin, and 124 are I-don't-know-where, possibly in the now-defunct CSI:NY forum. So that's 3,966 posts, not much more than you, David. I'm not being defensive - you just got me wondering how much I do actually post over here as opposed to over in the scary place.

I may have a lot of posts to my name, but I also think and empathise and do my best to not be intentionally obtuse or offensive. I don't always succeed, but I try to learn from my mistakes. Generally speaking. Sometimes I fail at that too, but don't we all?

We've all got far more in common than we sometimes realise and this is part of the problem. When we focus on minor differences, we lose sight of our major similarities.  The primal need to love and be loved by another human being is one of our major similarities. The gender of the person(s) we love is a minor difference.

When I say "we", I don't mean straight people, gay people, Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, beauty queens or bloggers. I mean all of us; the human race.

Ann


edited because I also sometimes split my infinitives, amongst other things.

[poz4afewyears]

The problem is, is that the definition of "bigot" is becoming so broad. The definition of "homophobia" is too. The dictionary defines homophobia as "an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people". I don't think that most people around today who are called "homophobes" are actually that.
I am gay and I am not the least bit offended by Miss California's comment. It's not like she was out in the street holding up signs saying that all fags are going to Hell or anything. People are allowed to disagree with homosexuality, and most people do. That is their right. Just like it is my right to disagree with their disagreement. I imagine most people here would support the idea of "thought police" or "thought crimes", but we haven't quite reached that point just yet.
This reminds me of the "tolerance" people show my boyfriend, who is black, when he tells them he didn't vote for Barack Obama. Like Peter Staley, they assume that he must be self loathing and that he must hate his race, which he doesn't. So much for "tolerance" and "diversity", huh?

Oh wait. Oh my Gosh. Is Barack Obama a bigot? I am pretty sure he said word for word that he didn't support same sex marriage. And I didn't see the liberals crying foul then. Quite the contrary, Barack Obama has obtained a sort of "Messiah" status among the libs. Why was Barack Obama not labeled a "bigot" when he said he didn't support same sex marriage? Yet, if George Bush had said that same thing, and he did, the libs would tear him a new asshole. "Tolerance" and "diversity" huh? It amazes me the things people will overlook when it is someone they support. Guess what? I didn't vote for the "bigot". What does it make you if you voted for Obama and he doesn't support same sex marriage? A bigot? Self loathing?

[poz4afewyears]

Yes it is fascinating how if one asks questions and you don't like their replies they become racists and bigots. Like us being gay makes us "SPECIAL" and everyone has to agree with us because we are always right and politically correct.

RapidRod,

Do you remember when Barack Obama stated that he didn't support same sex marriage? Was he labeled a "bigot"?

[poz4afewyears]

A direct quote from Obama during an MTV interview "marriage is between a man and a woman".

This is the Messiah of the democrats? A bigot?  How self loathing can you be to have voted for Obama? He's a bigot. Wa-wa-wa. OMG. I insulted the messiah.

[RapidRod]

Well, yeah, if their reply is a racist or bigoted opinion, then it only goes to follow that they are a racist and/or a bigot! Rocket science it ain't!

Ann,  So you are saying that Miss California's  opinions were bigoted and racist, because that is how SHE believes? I'm Gay and I did not take her opinion as bigoted or racist. I know what you posted is YOUR opinion Ann of which I don't agree which I guess makes me bigoted and racist because I didn't find her opinions to be bigoted or racist. Sorry.

[David_CA]

The problem is, is that the definition of "bigot" is becoming so broad. The definition of "homophobia" is too. The dictionary defines homophobia as "an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people". I don't think that most people around today who are called "homophobes" are actually that.
I am gay and I am not the least bit offended by Miss California's comment. It's not like she was out in the street holding up signs saying that all fags are going to Hell or anything. People are allowed to disagree with homosexuality, and most people do. That is their right. Just like it is my right to disagree with their disagreement. I imagine most people here would support the idea of "thought police" or "thought crimes", but we haven't quite reached that point just yet.
This reminds me of the "tolerance" people show my boyfriend, who is black, when he tells them he didn't vote for Barack Obama. Like Peter Staley, they assume that he must be self loathing and that he must hate his race, which he doesn't. So much for "tolerance" and "diversity", huh?

Oh wait. Oh my Gosh. Is Barack Obama a bigot? I am pretty sure he said word for word that he didn't support same sex marriage. And I didn't see the liberals crying foul then. Quite the contrary, Barack Obama has obtained a sort of "Messiah" status among the libs. Why was Barack Obama not labeled a "bigot" when he said he didn't support same sex marriage? Yet, if George Bush had said that same thing, and he did, the libs would tear him a new asshole. "Tolerance" and "diversity" huh? It amazes me the things people will overlook when it is someone they support. Guess what? I didn't vote for the "bigot". What does it make you if you voted for Obama and he doesn't support same sex marriage? A bigot? Self loathing?

From www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.samesexmarriage.html

Barack Obama
Opposes same-sex marriage, but also opposes a constitutional ban. Says he would repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment. As stated on the Obama campaign Web site, he supports full civil unions that "give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as married couples, including the right to assist their loved ones in times of emergency as well as equal health insurance, employment benefits, and property and adoption rights."

Obama sounds like he's proposing same sex marriage with a different name.

From www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/elec04.prez.bush.marriage/index.html

Bush calls for ban on same-sex marriages
 Democrats: President using amendment issue for re-election bid
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush endorsed a constitutional amendment Tuesday that would restrict marriage to two people of the opposite sex but leave open the possibility that states could allow civil unions.

"The union of a man and a woman is the most enduring human institution, honored and encouraged in all cultures and by every religious faith," Bush said.

"Marriage cannot be severed from its cultural, religious and natural roots without weakening the good influence of society."

there's more; I only posted part of it. 

[poz4afewyears]

RapidRod,

These people have double standards. Miss California says that she doesn't agree with same sex marriage and she is a bigot whore and gets ripped a new asshole. Barack Obama says the exact same thing when asked his opinion and he gets elected President.

Democrats typically do shit like that. They say one thing and do another.

[David_CA]

Ann,  So you are saying that Miss California's  opinions were bigoted and racist, because that is how SHE believes? I'm Gay and I did not take her opinion as bigoted or racist. I know what you posted is YOUR opinion Ann of which I don't agree which I guess makes me bigoted and racist because I didn't find her opinions to be bigoted or racist. Sorry.

I hate to get involved in this, but just because one US citizen of African descent doesn't get offended at the 'N' word doesn't make the White Supremist who calls him that any less of a bigot.

[poz4afewyears]

From www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.samesexmarriage.htmlObama sounds like he's proposing same sex marriage with a different name.

From www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/elec04.prez.bush.marriage/index.html there's more; I only posted part of it. 

Oh okay, see, I knew you guys would try to spin Obama's comment. He didn't mean he opposes same sex marriage when he said he opposes same sex marriage. He meant something else. So he lied? The same thing democrats hate Bush for, for lying, and they support Obama lying. Great. Glad we got that squared away.

[poz4afewyears]

I hate to get involved in this, but just because one US citizen of African descent doesn't get offended at the 'N' word doesn't make the White Supremist who calls him that any less of a bigot.

She didn't use a slur. She didn't say "I don't think faggots should be able to marry". Or maybe I missed that. Is this more of that double speak stuff where a person says one thing, but you have to get out your special dictionary to see what they really meant when they said what they said.

[David_CA]

RapidRod,

These people have double standards. Miss California says that she doesn't agree with same sex marriage and she is a bigot whore and gets ripped a new asshole. Barack Obama says the exact same thing when asked his opinion and he gets elected President.

Democrats typically do shit like that. They say one thing and do another.

No, it's the conservatives (Republicans) who don't have the good sense to realize that their discriminatory onions are their opinions and not truths.

[Miss Philicia]

Someone likes red herrings and false equivalencies here.  They either think we're dumb, or perhaps, and more likely, they're a bit psychotic.

[poz4afewyears]

No, it's the conservatives (Republicans) who don't have the good sense to realize that their discriminatory onions are their opinions and not truths.

Okay, so just so we are on the same page. If a Republican says they don't support same sex marriage it is wrong. If a democrats says it then it is okay, because they really meant something else when they said it they just didn't feel like saying what they really wanted to say? Do I have that right?

[David_CA]

Someone likes red herrings and false equivalencies here.  They either think we're dumb, or perhaps, and more likely, they're a bit psychotic.

You mean one of these:

[attachment deleted by admin]

[poz4afewyears]

Nobody is changing the subject. I am making a comparison. Miss California said she didn't support same sex marriage, Barack Obama said he didn't support same sex marriage. One is a bigot, one is not. One gets torn apart, the other gets elected President.

[David_CA]

Okay, so just so we are on the same page. If a Republican says they don't support same sex marriage it is wrong. If a democrats says it then it is okay, because they really meant something else when they said it they just didn't feel like saying what they really wanted to say? Do I have that right?

You're almost right.  Read a bit more though:

Opposes same-sex marriage, but also opposes a constitutional ban. Says he would repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment. As stated on the Obama campaign Web site, he supports full civil unions that "give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as married couples, including the right to assist their loved ones in times of emergency as well as equal health insurance, employment benefits, and property and adoption rights."

He opposes same-sex marriage (his opinion) but opposes forcing his opinion on us (his actions).  I don't know how this is really relevant to what the first loser (to Miss NC, I might add  ) has said.

[poz4afewyears]

So? He still opposes same sex marriage? I don't care if he would try to make an amendment to the constitution or not. He still opposes same sex marriage.

It is relevant, like I said, because this woman is being torn a new asshole for her opinion, which is the same opinion as that of Barack Obama and which you just admitted is his opinion, yet when Barack Obama say it it is totally okay. When did Miss California say that she supports legislation banning same sex marriage?

[poz4afewyears]

He opposes same-sex marriage (his opinion)

I just wanted to quote this part incase it gets edited later on.

She said her opinion, she is a bigot. Obama says his opinion, he is a new messiah.

[ademas]

Are we really comparing political expediency in Presidential politics to Ms. California's ridiculous answer in a beauty pageant?

Please...Mary...

[poz4afewyears]

My only question was why is it okay for Obama to not support same sex marriage, yet it is not okay for this woman to? From what I gather, Barack Obama didn't really mean he opposes same sex marriage when he said word for word that he opposes same sex marriage. He meant something totally different. Why the double standard?

This doesn't suprise me though, democrats are known for saying one thing and meaning another.

[Miss Philicia]

This doesn't suprise me though, democrats are known for saying one thing and meaning another.

You mean like saying to the nation "We don't torture" while breaking the law and doing so 183 times in one month?

k

but this is irrelevant to the discussion, hence the red herring

[David_CA]

My only question was why is it okay for Obama to not support same sex marriage, yet it is not okay for this woman to? From what I gather, Barack Obama didn't really mean he opposes same sex marriage when he said word for word that he opposes same sex marriage. He meant something totally different. Why the double standard?

You take one line from Obama and expect that anybody really thinks that's all he means when the rest of his wording is right there for you to read?  Personally, I think that the same-sex marriage route wasn't the best one.  I still think that pushing for the same rights (that married couples have) under a different name (union) and then going after the word (marriage) later would have been the right way to go.  It may not be too late, as Obama says he wants us to have the same rights but with a different name.  That's not a double standard; that's simply a way to reach the goal.

(edited for punctuation)

[poz4afewyears]

So it is irrelevant to point out that the man most of you voted for said the exact same thing this woman did? I don't see how that is irrelevant.

[poz4afewyears]

You take one line from Obama and expect that anybody really thinks that's all he means when the rest of his wording is right there for you to read?  Personally, I think that the same-sex marriage route wasn't the best one.  I still think that pushing for the same rights (that married couples have) under a different name (union) and then going after the word (marriage) later would have been the right way to go.  It may not be too late, as Obama says he wants us to have the same rights but with a different name.  That's not a double standard; that's simply a way to reach the goal.

(edited for punctuation)

That's called speaking in code. I don't speak in code. If you say you don't support same sex marriage I assume you don't support same sex marriage. I don't assume you mean something else.

I didn't vote for Barack Obama because he doesn't support same sex marriage, which I do. If he does support same sex marriage he should have said so instead of speaking in code.

[Miss Philicia]

If you ask me, this all has to do a bit with another thread on this board and Peter Staley's reply.  Just sayin'

[ademas]

Are we going to work our way around to Hitler soon?  Please?

[poz4afewyears]

I don't see how it would go to that.

I was pointing out that liberals are tearing this woman apart for her comment, yet the exact same person they voted for as president said the exact same thing and he was not called a bigot.

If Miss California is a bigot for saying that she doesn't agree with same sex marriage. Then so is every other person who says they don't support it. Not just conservatives. I did not hear a peep from the libs when Obama made that comment. Not one peep.

[dixieman]

poz4afewyears... oh yes people will pcik, and pick every little detail of your comments if their not exactly the same as theirs... it's overwhelming at times but, do like I do... post your thoughts, read theirs and listen to their point of view and go from there. Some peopl on the message board enjoy being argumentive... because theres only one opinion... but, in America we all have a say whether someone agrees and or not!
Rapidrod I agree with you 100% on this one...

[Tim Horn]

Actually, Poz, "liberals" have had plenty to say about Obama's reluctance to support same-sex marriage, along with other decisions that don't jive with his campaign rhetoric -- the "liberal" outcry at his selection of Rick Warren to deliver the inaugural invocation is another case in point. I think you're being a little disingenuous with this analogy.

Tim Horn

[Miss Philicia]

That because liberals are Nazis.  (happy, ademas?)

[poz4afewyears]

Tim Horn,

I really don't follow politics to that much of a degree. I go to a Unitarian Universalist church, and I am SURROUNDED by the most kneejerk liberals I have ever seen. And not one of them said a single thing about Obama not supporting same sex marriage, the did, however, comment on his choice of Rick Warren.
But there was no where near as much controversy about his comment as there was about this woman's. He is a representative of this country to the entire world. This woman is a bimbo.
So kow I have a President who does not support my right to marry someone of the same gender. He may not be supportive of banning it or making an amendment against it,  but he still doesn't support it.

[poz4afewyears]

That because liberals are Nazis.  (happy, ademas?)

Red herring?

[Miss Philicia]

Well, I have to say that pozafew has done an excellent, and predictably duplicitous, job at moving the discussion away from his fascinating and oh-so-revealing "stereotypical" homosexuals. It sends a bad message to people" comment from just five hours ago.