Author Topic: Malaysian Jet Shot Down in Ukraine: 295 Dead (Read 33393 times)

Joe K · « **on:** July 17, 2014, 01:00:34 pm »

This report made me sick to my stomach. Those responsible must be brought to justice.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-jet-reportedly-crashes-in-ukraine/

Joe

Grasshopper · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2014, 01:39:19 pm »

I am shaking writing this : My nextdoor neighbours were on that flight. This morning I dropped them off at the airport. I have their housekey to feed the cats.
The parents were here a moment ago, and now gone to the airport for information.
This is sick sick sick, I have to stop shaking. Such nice and sweet people 32 & 34yrs old

Jeff G · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2014, 01:42:52 pm »

I am so very sorry for your loss Grasshopper ... words are not enough .

Joe K · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2014, 02:07:50 pm »

Grasshopper, I am so sorry to hear of your connection to this tragedy. My deepest condolences to you and your friends family.

Joe

WillyWump · « **Reply #4 on:** July 17, 2014, 03:06:29 pm »

Quote from: Joe K on July 17, 2014, 01:00:34 pm

This report made me sick to my stomach. Those responsible must be brought to justice.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-jet-reportedly-crashes-in-ukraine/

Joe

We as humans are barbarians, and have evolved very little since the first time we cracked anothers head open with a club 2 million years ago. I doubt this planet will ever know true peace. My condolences to the family of those murdered in this incident.

Quote from: Grasshopper on July 17, 2014, 01:39:19 pm

I am shaking writing this : My nextdoor neighbours were on that flight. This morning I dropped them off at the airport. I have their housekey to feed the cats.
The parents were here a moment ago, and now gone to the airport for information.
This is sick sick sick, I have to stop shaking. Such nice and sweet people 32 & 34yrs old

Grass, what a shock I am sure you are traumatized..I am sorry you are going through this. Condolences.

-Will

britchick · « **Reply #5 on:** July 17, 2014, 04:11:06 pm »

Grasshopper,

I'm so sorry to hear about your neighbours.This event appears to be such a senseless tragedy.So devastating.We are all thinking about you and the passengers,crew and their families.

britchickxx

mitch777 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 17, 2014, 05:04:37 pm »

Grasshopper, so sorry for your loss. What a senseless act.

karry · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2014, 08:47:30 pm »

Sorry for your loss, Grasshopper. I wish those responsible be brought to justice.
Kerry

Growler · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2014, 09:05:48 pm »

http://www.smh.com.au/national/crash-claims-top-aids-researchers-heading-to-melbourne-20140718-zuaw3.html

AIDs conference people killed

mitch777 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2014, 09:11:51 pm »

Quote from: Growler on July 17, 2014, 09:05:48 pm

http://www.smh.com.au/national/crash-claims-top-aids-researchers-heading-to-melbourne-20140718-zuaw3.html

AIDs conference people killed

wow.

anniebc · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2014, 09:22:30 pm »

So very sad and totally uncalled for. My thoughts are with all those families who have now lost their loved one's.

I had the pleasure of meeting Joep Lange, who was believed to be on that flight, in DC at the last IAC, a beautiful mind and researcher gone after all his years and wonderful work done on HIV.

Grasshopper I'm so sorry this has affected you personally.

RIP to all those who perished.

In sadness
Jan

mitch777 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2014, 09:35:09 pm »

Every single life lost was a tragedy caused by religious ideology gone haywire. When will we ever learn as humans on Earth?

Hoyland · « **Reply #12 on:** July 17, 2014, 10:04:38 pm »

Quote

A number of delegates headed for an international HIV conference in Melbourne were onboard a Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed in Ukraine, conference organisers have confirmed.

The International AIDS Society (IAS) said a number of delegates and conference attendees were among the 298 people on board MH17.

Earlier on Friday, Australia's National AIDS Trust paid tribute to former International AIDS Society president Joep Lange.

"Reports Joep Lange died in Malaysian plane crash today, with other scientists on way to @AIDS_conference. Desperately sad news," it said on Twitter.

Professor Lange, a Dutch clinical researcher specialising in HIV therapy, was one of a number of delegates who were heading to Melbourne for the 20th annual AIDS Conference, due to begin on Sunday, reports say.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/vic-hiv-conference-confirms-loss-of-lives-20140718-3c4zc.html

Jeff G · « **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2014, 10:08:32 pm »

Its already being discussed here .... or mentioned . http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=54845.0

YellowFever · « **Reply #14 on:** July 17, 2014, 10:57:20 pm »

Quote from: mitch777 on July 17, 2014, 09:35:09 pm

Every single life lost was a tragedy caused by religious ideology gone haywire. When will we ever learn as humans on Earth?

I don't think this one has anything to do with religion. Regardless, my thoughts are with the families of the departed and the wonderful Malaysia Airlines crew. Some of them are still traumatized by what happened to MH370.

GSOgymrat · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2014, 12:24:34 am »

I'm very sorry, Grasshopper. It is just horrible.

sfpvguy41 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2014, 12:52:05 am »

I'm speechless. Condolences to Grasshopper. The world is a bit darker with the loss of 100 people including WHO officials fighting HIV/AIDS.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/who-malaysia-plane-crash-victims-aids-_n_5597547.html

tednlou2 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 18, 2014, 12:58:10 am »

Grasshopper,

My condolences on the lost of your neighbors. I should say friends, as taking someone to the airport and given keys to their home would indicate a relationship more than just neighbors. So, my condolences on the lost of your friends. I can only imagine what you're feeling.

This will surely bring many nations into this situation, as it appears they were murdered and this was not some accident of mistaken identity.

Modified:

I should temper what I said. There is the possibility this could have been mistaken identity. There has been reports of intercepted audio, where some military personnel said they fucked up. Whether intentional or mistaken identity, I am sure most families will see this as their loved ones murdered.

J.R.E. · « **Reply #18 on:** July 18, 2014, 02:06:46 am »

Grasshopper,

My condolences on the loss of your friends.

AIDS conference attendees on downed Malaysian jet

http://news.yahoo.com/aids-conference-attendees-downed-malaysian-jet-003927115.html

SYDNEY (AP) — A large number of world-renowned AIDS researchers and activists heading to an international AIDS conference in Australia were on board a Malaysian jetliner that was shot down over Ukraine, officials said Friday, as news of their deaths sparked an outpouring of grief across the global scientific community.
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There have been unconfirmed reports that up to 100 people on board the Boeing 777 were en route to the Victoria state capital of Melbourne to attend the 20th International AIDS conference, which starts Sunday, Victoria Premier Denis Napthine said, though he hastened to add that reports were conflicting and it was far too premature to give a precise figure.

"There's been confirmed a number of senior people who were coming out here who were researchers, who were medical scientists, doctors, people who've been to the forefront of dealing with AIDS across the world," Napthine told reporters in Melbourne. "The exact number is not yet known, but there is no doubt it's a substantial number.

The plane, which was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, crashed Thursday with 298 people on board. American intelligence authorities believe a surface-to-air missile brought the aircraft down but it was not yet clear who fired it.

At least 27 Australians were confirmed to be on board the plane, which was scheduled to continue flying to Australia after stopping in Kuala Lumpur, Australian Foreign Affairs Minister Julie Bishop told reporters in Brisbane.

Among the passengers was former president of the International AIDS Society Joep Lange, a well-known HIV researcher from the Netherlands, opposition leader Bill Shorten said in parliament.
View gallery
Man places a flower tribute at the Dutch embassy to …
Man places a flower tribute at the Dutch embassy to commemorate victims of Malaysia Airlines plane c …

"There are Australians who would have planned to be at the airport tomorrow night to greet friends and family — amongst them, some of the world's leading AIDS experts," Shorten said. "The cost of this will be felt in many parts of the world."

Chris Beyrer, president-elect of the International AIDS Society, said if reports of Lange's death were true, "then the HIV/AIDS movement has truly lost a giant."

Nobel laureate Dr. Francoise Barre-Sinoussi, co-discoverer of the AIDS virus and president of the International AIDS Society, paid tribute to Lange in a speech in the Australian capital, Canberra.

"Joep was a wonderful person — a great professional ... but more than that, a wonderful human being," she said. "If it is confirmed, it will be a terrible loss for all of us. I have no words, really, to try to express my sadness. I feel totally devastated."

She later told reporters the conference would continue out of respect for the lives lost: "Because we know that it's really what they would like us to do."
View gallery
People stand near flower tributes placed outside the …
People stand near flower tributes placed outside the Dutch embassy to commemorate victims of Malaysi …

Lange had been working on HIV since the earliest years of the epidemic, participating in clinical trials and research across the world, Barre-Sinoussi said. He had dedicated his life, she said, to "the benefit of mankind."

Sharon Lewin, co-chair of the conference, called Lange a true renaissance man, who also had a keen interest in arts and literature.

"He was passionate about his job and passionate about global health and improving people's lives in low-income countries," Lewin said. "He was quite visionary actually, I think since the very early days of the epidemic and could see what the challenges were that lay ahead."

Former U.S. President Bill Clinton will deliver an address at next week's AIDS conference, which brings together thousands of scientists and activists from around the world to discuss the latest developments in HIV and AIDS research.

The World Health Organization's Geneva-based spokesman Glenn Thomas, who was en route to the conference, was also among the dead, said Christian Lindmeier, spokesman for WHO's Western Pacific region.

"Everybody's devastated," Lindmeier said. "It's a real blow."

Flags at government buildings across Victoria will be lowered to half-staff on Friday and will remain that way throughout the conference, the state premier said.

House of Representatives Speaker Bronwyn Bishop called for a moment of silence in parliament to honor the victims, adding that she was scheduled to address the AIDS conference on Monday.

"I know there will be many empty spots," Bishop said. "And I think that what we're doing is mourning with all of the world and all that had been lost. And we want to see justice but in a measured way."

The International AIDS Society issued a statement expressing its grief over the news that several of its colleagues and friends were on board.

"At this incredibly sad and sensitive time the IAS stands with our international family and sends condolences to the loved ones of those who have been lost to this tragedy," the group said.

zettainaoru · « **Reply #19 on:** July 18, 2014, 02:34:28 am »

My deepest condolences.

Bowie-esq · « **Reply #20 on:** July 18, 2014, 03:30:05 am »

Today is a heavy day here in The Netherlands. My condolences to all family and friends of those caught up in this terrible situation.

Peace and love to all x

BT65 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 18, 2014, 05:42:10 am »

Grasshopper, I am so sorry for your loss.

This is a horrible situation. I hope the world finds out who is responsible and brings them to justice.

Betty

auspoz · « **Reply #22 on:** July 18, 2014, 05:49:04 am »

My heart breaks for all the victims. But over 100 on their way to Melbourne World AIDS conference. Please rest in peace.

Reggie · « **Reply #23 on:** July 18, 2014, 08:05:28 am »

So sorry to hear Grasshopper, this is utterly tragic, condolences to you and all those effected by this senseless act

Reggie

drewm · « **Reply #24 on:** July 18, 2014, 08:29:24 am »

A terrible tragedy made worse by the finger pointing and denials by two groups of human beings who should be equally ashamed.

loneranger · « **Reply #25 on:** July 18, 2014, 09:27:54 am »

I have not posted on this forum for quite a few years but this horrific incident has compelled me to do so. Such senseless loss of so many lives and for what??

Grasshopper - my condolences on the loss of your neighbours and friends. I can't imagine how you are feeling. Sending you loving thoughts and hugs from the UK.

loneranger · « **Reply #26 on:** July 18, 2014, 09:29:43 am »

I have not posted on this forum for quite a few years but this horrific incident has compelled me to do so. Such senseless loss of so many lives and for what??

Grasshopper - my condolences on the loss of your neighbours and friends. I can't imagine how you are feeling. Sending you loving thoughts and hugs from the UK.

OneTampa · « **Reply #27 on:** July 18, 2014, 10:58:07 am »

So horrific.

And Grasshopper, sorry to read of your loss.

I also read about the AIDS conference researchers on the flight.

Condolences to all families and friends.

dico · « **Reply #28 on:** July 18, 2014, 01:49:44 pm »

Those who have HIV and even those who study it are cursed. It's a shock for me.

EUINAU · « **Reply #29 on:** July 18, 2014, 04:28:17 pm »

Terrible tragedy! Awful awful and shameless act. RIP.

initforlife · « **Reply #30 on:** July 18, 2014, 05:04:02 pm »

No we are not cursed because of hiv. We got a damn virus is all that is no reason to be cursed and the plane was shot down by idiots trying to act like they are something they are not. That's not a curse that is one country handing over weapons to people who have no clue how to use them or shouldn't even have them . Like handing a knife to a baby and saying don't cut yourself. I'm not curse nor will I or anyone else be because of a virus!

elf · « **Reply #31 on:** July 18, 2014, 05:33:35 pm »

Terrible

Jeff G · « **Reply #32 on:** July 18, 2014, 05:54:55 pm »

This is the 3rd thread about this going now so I merged them into one and placed in living with for lack of a better fit . Not my best work but it will do .

RobbyR · « **Reply #33 on:** July 18, 2014, 10:16:27 pm »

Just wanted to post my condolences to the families of everyone on board Malaysian Flight 17 who lost their lives this week. This was a civilian airliner comprising people of many different nationalities, and many passionate HIV/Aids researchers and scientisits on their way to a global aids conference. They did NOT deserve to be murdered in this way.

I'm going to state this plainly. This was a barbaric, callous act by Russia and it's militias inside Ukraine. This country has a history of egregious flagrant acts of barbarism when it comes to shooting down civilian airliners. In 1978, an airliner was buzzed and shot at by Russian aircraft. And again, most notably, in 1983, Soviet fighter jets shot down an unarmed Korean Airliner with 269 people on board.

Each time this barbarism by Moscow happens, the pattern is the same..they lie, cover up, and try and blame others for their own ruthlessness.

Russia is a country that advocates anti-gay policies as state law, and where LGBT people literally live in fear every day for arrest or worse. This horrendous act of shooting down the Malaysian airliner is just the latest awful act in a long pattern of aggression, bullying, and trying to dominate others.

Moscow pours weapons into East Ukraine since their invasion and annexation of Crimea in March, arming pro-Russia rebels and giving them intelligence to target and shoot down Ukrainian airliners. Which they brag about.

The international community needs to wake up and do something. We should have boycotted the Olympics, bit hopefully now people are realizing what a digusting country Russia is for these horrendous acts.

The Russians bully their neighbors, their LGBT citizens, and now they have again committed mass murder of almost 300 people by their armed proxies in Ukraine which have been getting direct assistance from Moscow.

Again I say, there is ZERO justification for what the Russians did and the loss of life is horrible, and the hiv aids researchers who perished took valuable knowledge with them.

I am thinking good thoughts for the victims and hoping the international community will continue calling out this terrible act for what it is. Hearing about the horrible scenes on the news and the bodies still in the field, what if that was your friend or relative?

The world must let Moscow know that this is unacceptable and it's been nauseating me to hear about how terrible this disaster was. It's sickening, and the deception is even worse.

wolfter · « **Reply #34 on:** July 18, 2014, 11:11:46 pm »

Perhaps we do need a couple of different threads about this tragedy? As news comes in, we owe a debt of respect and gratitude for those who lost their lives trying to affect change on our behalf. We should honor them and show some dignity in how we do so.

greg

Jeff G · « **Reply #35 on:** July 18, 2014, 11:29:06 pm »

Quote from: wolfter on July 18, 2014, 11:11:46 pm

Perhaps we do need a couple of different threads about this tragedy? As news comes in, we owe a debt of respect and gratitude for those who lost their lives trying to affect change on our behalf. We should honor them and show some dignity in how we do so.

greg

If someone like Grasshopper who has suffered a personal loss wishes to start their own thread that would be fine ... but the count is now at 4 threads that have been started about the disaster and I see no reason why they can't be in the same thread .

wolfter · « **Reply #36 on:** July 18, 2014, 11:40:39 pm »

fair enough. i just need to mourn the tragedy before we focus too deeply on blame. i'll skim over the rest.

we'll be seeing more profiles of those we lost within out community. I've seen a few already and it is difficult.

Almost2late · « **Reply #37 on:** July 19, 2014, 11:34:21 am »

This was a terrible tragedy .. My condolences to all that perished in that plane.. I was in shock when I heard of the Aids researchers and activist on the plane.

First the Mississippi baby and now this

RobbyR · « **Reply #38 on:** July 19, 2014, 12:58:02 pm »

This is a disaster of epic proportions. The loss of life is heavy, about 80 children were on board, and the hiv researchers. None of them deserved to be murdered in this way. The crash site has been tampered with with reports of the Russian rebels taking valuables off the victims bodies and tampering with evidence. No securing of the site has happened. Who knowswhere the black boxes are. They're probably in Moscow by now.

For the last few months I've atched as Russia has passed laws against lgbt people, invaded parts of Ukraine and annexed the Crimea, and poured arms into east Ukraine to arm the rebels. Now this tragedy. As I said earlier, this is not the first time Moscow has shot down a civilian airliner.
This is a country run by thugs and barbarians who seem to have no regard for human life and basic freedoms.

I hope this awful tragedy and crime will finally wake people up and call them to account.

WillyWump · « **Reply #39 on:** July 19, 2014, 01:37:35 pm »

We are going on 2 days of bodies laying out in the open, including infants, one sprawled on his back looking skyward. There are reports of rats eating at the remains. Some bodies ahve been bagged and dragged to the side of the road by inhabitants of a local town. But most are out in the open. If you think Im kidding just google "MH17 pictures"

The leader of the free world needs to act. He needs to force Putin to have proper authorities go in and collect these bodies with dignity and take them to a secure place where they can be identified and returned to their families.

The phone call should go something like this: "Mr. Putin we have 1000 troops, and more if necessary, in Poland, Belarus and Moldova prepared to enter Ukraine and rebel occupied areas with force if necessary, to retrieve our one American citizen's body and while we are at it we will retrieve the remaining 294 bodies. If you do not want US troops within miles of your border I suggest you go in and get those bodies out of that crash scene and to a proper facility. You have 6 hours to act."

Force Putin to act, or do it ourselves. AND FOLLOW THROUGH THIS TIME

RobbyR · « **Reply #40 on:** July 19, 2014, 02:30:57 pm »

I agree totally with you WillyWump. If ever an incident calls for drastic action, it's this appalling act. I mean the dead passengers are still strewn across the field and reports say the Russians have been looting the site and picking valuables from the bodies. It's sickening but not surprising. Sadly, nothing much can be done. Russia wages propganda wars and brainwashes Europeans and they are so cowardly that their price of energy wil go up if they piss Russia off that they just sit there and do nothing while Moscow runs amock. Russia supports all our enemies at every turn, like Iran and North Korea, so that alone shows clearly what their aims are. The Russian government is a right wing, despotic dictatorship similar in ways to pre-WWII Germany. Anyone who isn't "pure Russian", or who is "deviant" like lgbt people, live in constant fear.

The US president was right to call out Russia for their blatant violations of international law by threatening and taking over their neighbors. But it's time for more action.

We should go on TV and address the world and state clearly the scope of this crime. In the coming days, as Russian culpability becomes even clearer, hopefully more action will follow.

I would announce and place missile systems in Poland and the Baltic states, that's a concrete strong action we could take. The Russians understand strength, and this would require not a shot fired. Obviously there could never be a war between us and Russia, that would be ludacris and World War 3. But we can speak out forcefully against their human rights violations, put missile batteries in Europe, and have a robust posture towards them.

The time for empty words has past. The victims deserve action. Obama should follow Reagan's example here and when all the facts come out, go to the world and lay out in lear details why Russia is a country run by criminals and ruthless arbarians.

Since I've been born, this is the second time they have shot down a civilian airliner, and it has to stop.

Joe K · « **Reply #41 on:** July 19, 2014, 02:56:09 pm »

I hope some of you folks realize that on July 3, 1988: The US warship Vincennes shot down an Iranian passenger plane over the Persian Gulf, mistaking it for a threatening warplane. All 290 people aboard were killed.

Other countries have also downed passenger planes as well.

There is a reason they say that "War is Hell."

Joe

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #42 on:** July 19, 2014, 04:09:22 pm »

It may have only been six delegates to the AIDS conference that died on the plane, contrary to earlier reporting.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #43 on:** July 19, 2014, 04:13:36 pm »

Quote from: Joe K on July 19, 2014, 02:56:09 pm

I hope some of you folks realize that on July 3, 1988: The US warship Vincennes shot down an Iranian passenger plane over the Persian Gulf, mistaking it for a threatening warplane. All 290 people aboard were killed.

Other countries have also downed passenger planes as well.

There is a reason they say that "War is Hell."

Joe

Probably a better comparison to the current incidence would the the CIA-funded downing of Cubana de Aviación Flight 455 by anti-Castro exiles in 1976.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_de_Aviación_Flight_455

What's worse is that one of the convicted terrorists is now living free in Miami.

tednlou2 · « **Reply #44 on:** July 19, 2014, 04:23:32 pm »

I've seen several conservative friends repost a video from FOX News (no surprise) of Reagan giving an address, about the Soviets shooting down a Korean plane. They did this to somehow make Saint Reagan look so strong, while Obama is so weak. The video shows Reagan saying nothing different than what Obama has said. Reagan did not threaten action or sanctions.

This is a delicate issue. Putting soldiers or military hardware near Russia would only do harm. This sounds like something McCain would propose. He also wanted us to give Syrian rebels the same missile hardware, as Russia has given to their rebels. Can you imagine how easy the United States could be in this same situation, if we had done that and the Syrian rebels had shot down a commercial plane? Imagine what Wall Street would do, if we put soldiers and/or military hardware near Russia. The market would take a dive, and Obama would be blamed for that, which would weaken his options on economic sanctions. Everything cannot be solved by the military.

RobbyR · « **Reply #45 on:** July 19, 2014, 05:54:57 pm »

Lets be clear. The Russians started this by invading and annexing part of Ukraine and fomenting unrest and promoting tacitly the breaking off of East Ukraine towards Moscow. I also think he West blames some responsibility for helping create the current hostile situation by pushing Nato expansion to Russia's immediate borders. Russia historically does not take well to western powers trying to encroach on it's immediate buffer zones. It will not give up East Ukraine, that's simply not happening, due to centuries of religious and ethnic sentiments in far East Ukraine towards Moscow.

No rational person is advocating any military response to the atrocious shooting down of the Malaysian airliner, but it's time Russia realizes they can't run amock and commit
atrocious acts with no consequences.

The West should continue advocating sanctions, however, that may be limited due to Moscow's enhanced redundant relationship with China, and Latin American markets.

Putin is a KGB man, and he understands and respects clear concise language and actions. I don't advocate arming the anti-Russia Ukrainians, but I think we must call a thing a thing..if Rusia shot the plane down, as seems likely, call them out for it in front of everyone. And put some anti missile and offensive missile batteries in Poland and the Czech Republic. None of this would require firing a single shot, and would also show Moscow that we're tired of sitting back while the constantly bully and wreak havoc on people.

This is indeed a delicate issue. But 300 people were murdered, and Russia is a country that is threatening the peace in Europe and should be confronted.

The example I'd use is JFK..Be tough, clear, concise, and steady, don't be afraid to call them out. Steady and determined.

WillyWump · « **Reply #46 on:** July 19, 2014, 09:36:28 pm »

I'm just glad Hillary "Reset" relations with the Russians

. A great new era in Russian American relationship!

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #47 on:** July 19, 2014, 10:33:40 pm »

WillyWump · « **Reply #48 on:** July 19, 2014, 11:12:07 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on July 19, 2014, 10:33:40 pm

I knew my comment would drag you up out of your sick bed.

RobbyR · « **Reply #49 on:** July 20, 2014, 10:25:45 am »

Lets be clear. The last few presidents' foreign policies have been total failures. Bush was a fool and an idiot, with the disaster war of choice in Iraq, and Obama's has been laughable. Obama seems totally detactched and out of touch and he alwas seems behind the curve on major events. As far as Hillary Clinton, I'm not clear on anything she accomplished as Secretary of State. As an Independent Progressive, I've been extremely troubled by the total failurres in leadership during the last two preidents tenures and neither did anything to counter or articlate to the world how dangerous Russia is.

We need war crimes charges brought against those who shot down the plane, heavy targeted sanctions against Russia, and putting missile defense back in Europe to protect our allies and deterring Russia from invading any other countries.

The world is getting disastrous and Russia is run by thugs. Obama set red lines in Syria and didn't follow through and Moscow took notes and took Crimea. And Putin snickers at Obama because he knows he can basically do what he wants and Obama won't do anything. All talk no actions.

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Author Topic: Malaysian Jet Shot Down in Ukraine: 295 Dead (Read 33393 times)