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[Alain]

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[Sae]

I've met Andrew and I think a few remarks in a forum are just that, remarks.  They don't come close to representing his viewpoints I'm sure.

No doubt he doesn't need me to defend that...but I can't help it!

I've lived in Toronto, Ottawa, Winnipeg and Montreal....nevermind being born in Northern Canada and I suspect Andrew still has better perspective than I....seeing as he's probably moved as much.

Just sayin'....its a forum not a paper.
Sae.

[CalvinC]

Alain: thanks for your comments. Here are some clarifications:

Stats Canada has determined that Montreal is the fourth poorest city in Canada, preceded by three other Quebec towns. Take a look at the
Public Health Agency of Canada @ http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/ph-sp/phdd/overview_implications/02_income.html. Here's a quote from it:
"Compared to Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary and Vancouver, in 2001 Montreal had the highest proportion of seniors (15.3%) and lone-parent families (33%), as well as the highest unemployment rate (10%) and poverty index (Canada =100; Montreal =177). Montreal had the lowest proportion of owner-occupied dwellings (35.8%) in 2001, and the lowest proportion of income earned by the poorest half of households in 1995 (18%)."

For other perspectives, at a glance, look at http://www.montrealmirror.com/2005/102005/watn24.html, or
http://www.iedm.org/main/show_mediareleases_en.php?mediareleases_id=114

I am not saying that Montreal is ALL poor. Of course it isn't. But there is a stunning rate of poverty in Montreal. I stayed with my friend Christian, who lives in one of Montreal's poorest neighbourhoods, Hochelega-Maissoneuve. Venture past the Jaques Cartier bridge, down Notre Dame or Ste Catherines. Bleak. And this is not to say there isn't poverty elsewhere in Canada. But it's a fact that there is an abundance of it in Montreal.

I lived in Montreal and saw much of it. The roadways and highways are a horrific mess, and the unions responsible for their repair give progressive social movements a bad name. Though the Plateau gives off an aura of encroaching prosperity, it comes at the displacement of the poor. (The same has happened in Toronto, where the poor areas are actually in the suburbs.) Montreal is OBSESSED with Toronto, continually making references to its uptightness etc, and this has always impressed upon me the notion that Montrealers protest too much, likely because there's widespread insecurity. (Ask Torontonians what they think about Montreal, and they usually respond that it's pleasant etc.) The notion of laissez-faire and bohemian Montreal is outdated, much in the same way that Montreal is a "European" city. Tell that to the people living in Laval--or Pte St Charles or Hochelega-Maissoneuve or Parc Ex. This goes hand in hand with the idea that Montreal is somehow more socially progressive, especially when it comes to gay issues; but when you look at provinicial and federal legislative initiatives, you will find that Quebec (and Montreal) is no further ahead and in some instances it follows. Quebec enjoys the highest tax rates in Canada, but so much of the social programs it funds is lost in the mire of administrative overlay. $7/day daycare and lower tuition rates is about it.

Given all that, there is nothing wrong in having pride in Montreal (or wherever); I have no agenda. (And I'm not from Toronto but Sudbury, one of the most derided places in Canada, and often deservedly so.) But the myth of Montreal as being some kind of social paradise and patio-clad utopia of endless nightlife parties is tiring. It's a city with big problems.

Andrew

[Sae]

Ok, now that approaches a paper.   

Sae
(don't get me started on why I make an effort to learn french while my co-workers can't be bothered to speak a word of english)

[Alain]

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[Alain]

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[Cliff]

My biggest complaint about the city, is the fact that no one in Montreal seems to know how to make a decent drink.  No matter what I ordered, unless it was on tap or came in a bottle, they managed to screw it up. 

[Sae]

Hey Alain,

I LIKE the paper, my comment was tongue in cheek...because I'm a cheeky bastard.   I love the debate....seriously.  My commentary was actually just what I find on forums, that things are easily misintepreted in writing.  Luckily, Andrew is a fine writer so its darn clear now.

Hopefully we meet someday dear...

Sae
(who thinks sarcasm is her only means of survival in this chien mange dog world)

[Sae]

Hey Cliff,

Thanks for noticing the important things here in Mont Royal....LMAO.  Too funny, and all too true.

Jerry figured it out WAY faster, hence the Smirnoff Ices....

Sae
(who will have another smirnoff ice thanks...)

[jkinatl2]

mmm... dog.

[Sae]

SICK!

LMAO.  I needed that JK.

woof!