POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: milker on October 15, 2007, 11:20:40 pm
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I see many ads from people saying they're "clean". I see a lot of posts from "Am I Infected" saying they're "clean" or someone was supposed to be "clean".
I'm wondering what this term is doing to us, to which extent. It seems to me that it is extremely damaging, and I'm not sure where it comes from. What can we do to stop people using "clean" to say that they're not HIV positive?
Milker.
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We can cut their fucking tongues out.
MtD
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come on Matty.. i was just reacting to one of your posts where you were offended about people using this term, and I agree with you, it is offending, but where does it come from, and what can we do to stop this?
Milker.
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I still refer to myself as being clean. I choose to believe that being clean means I shower regularly, brush my teeth daily, and change my clothes as necessary. If others choose to believe that by saying I'm clean that I must be HIV negative, that's their problem.
Also D&D free. I see this as indicating that my social calander is free of any Dungeons and Dragons gaming with my socially awkward, overly imaginative friends. I am proudly D&D free!
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If others choose to believe that by saying I'm clean that I must be HIV negative, that's their problem.
So if you reply to an ad that says something like "gotta be clean" then you discard HIV references and you go for it?
Milker.
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I know what you were referring to. And whilst you're conducting your little symposium, Milker, some of us are actually addressing the problem.
See here how I deal with the foolish youth in question. (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=14299.0)
MtD
(Who knows that there are doers and talkers)
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I know what you were referring to. And whilst you're conducting your little symposium, Milker, some of us are actually addressing the problem.
See here how I deal with the foolish youth in question. (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=14299.0)
MtD
(Who knows that there are doers and talkers)
Matty, yes this is this post I just read. And that's why I started this thread because this issues comes too often, and I think it's something we can talk about. That you are addressing the problem by saying it's an offense is one thing, that it's a common trend is another thing that I wish to discuss.
Milker.
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Think of it this way Milker. When you see them use that term you can scratch them off your people to do list.
"Clean" = narrow minded, insensitive dickhead.
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We can cut their fucking tongues out.
That would be very messy therefore making us unclean. ;)
Holiness to the Lord,
bry
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So if you reply to an ad that says something like "gotta be clean" then you discard HIV references and you go for it?
Sure. That's the beauty of language. If I think that being clean implies I have good personal hygeine then I admit I am clean. If someone wants to know if I have HIV, then they should ask me straight out. I'm not going to lie, of course I have HIV. I haven't lied in this situation nor have I misrepresented the truth. When people want a direct/specific answer, they need to ask a direct/specific question.
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Think of it this way Milker. When you see them use that term you can scratch them off your people to do list.
"Clean" = narrow minded, insensitive dickhead.
hmmm is it that simple? If it was just a small number of people using that term I wouldn't care, but it seems to be somewhat a term that defines HIV positive people to a large population and I have a problem with that.
Milker.
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hmmm is it that simple? If it was just a small number of people using that term I wouldn't care, but it seems to be somewhat a term that defines HIV positive people to a large population and I have a problem with that.
Milker.
But it isn't just us High Fivers that get this. That terminology is hurled at people who have any form of STD.
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Sure. That's the beauty of language. If I think that being clean implies I have good personal hygeine then I admit I am clean.
Well I'm French, so by definition i'm not clean.
But seriously, it is offending for most of us, and I'm wondering where this is coming from. I disagree with you, thunter. Who is defined as "not clean" because they have gonorrhea? Clean vs not clean = HIV- vs HIV+ for 99.99 of the time.
Milker.
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And one wonders why I steer clear of the "Am I infected" forum?
I'd strangle the little darlins in no time at all.
If the guy in question asked one more time if he was going to be OK, I would have told him to bend over, I was going to drive.
HUGS,
Mark
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Well I'm French, so by definition i'm not clean.
But seriously, it is offending for most of us, and I'm wondering where this is coming from. I disagree with you, thunter. Who is defined as "not clean" because they have gonorrhea? Clean vs not clean = HIV- vs HIV+ for 99.99 of the time.
Milker.
I disagree about the second part your post. I've yet to come across anyone with syph or the clap that would get a pass as "clean".
We're in harmony on the first part of your post, though. ;)
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Well I'm French, so by definition i'm not clean.
I'm French as well and still think of myself as clean, although I am an anglophone so I guess I get the cleanliness from that side of things...
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Carol Anne: Uh-huh. Diane: Do you see them? Carol Anne: Uh-uh. Do you? Diane: Uh-uh. Tangina: This house is clean. Diane: You were saying about poltergeist.
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Carol Anne: Uh-huh. Diane: Do you see them? Carol Anne: Uh-uh. Do you? Diane: Uh-uh. Tangina: This house is clean. Diane: You were saying about poltergeist.
speaking of...where is carol ann these days?
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///public library
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speaking of...where is carol ann these days?
So yeah I was wondering the same thing. But can we stay on topic? STDs are cleaner than HIV?
Milker.
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STDs are cleaner than HIV?
Milker.
they's all nasty to me. but then, when it comes to sex i have always prided myself on being a rather nasty sort, so it follows i should have garnered a few of 'em in my time.
around the block more times than a taxi,
thunter34
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I too thought clean meant no STDs, including herpes. When I was single and negative I was worried as much about herpes as HIV. Protecting myself during sex from HIV was relatively easy compared to herpes.
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Look,
When people (such as those arsehole WW's in The Other Place) use the term "clean" they mean both HIV and other STD's. I should know, I've spent the last 2+ years making the idiots each shit-sandwiches everytime they fuck up on the "clean" issue.
I think I saw Carol-Ann online the other day.
MtD
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... and I'm not sure where it comes from.
It's simply a euphemism. Part courtesy, part denial, part ignorance
Courtesy - it's nicer than saying "are you an AIDS infected scumbag?" or "Are you a clap-ridden whore?" Polite people don't like to talk or think of other people as "infected". it sounds nasty. "clean" is so nice, without sounding at all offensive.
Denial - Sexual repression (and homophobia) make people squeamish about talking about sex, and HIV. If no one says the word, then it's not a problem. Asking if someone is "clean" glosses over having to think of all that nasty stuff like STDs, HIV, AIDS.
Ignorance - uneducated people are just rude without realizing it. No one asks grandma if she's "clean" of the cancer or diabetes, because that would sound ugly; and there's a greater chance that they understand issues of cancer and diabetes. To them HIV is just that scary disease they don't understand, so someone must not be "clean" if they have that disease.
I would also have to add that IMHO if someone is asking if you're "clean" they are meaning STDs AND HIV. No one is going to play 20-questions to see what you might have. It's a one-size-fits-all kind of question.
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I think I saw Carol-Ann online the other day.
MtD
YOU THINK WRONG
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Look,
When people (such as those arsehole WW's in The Other Place) use the term "clean" they mean both HIV and other STD's. I should know, I've spent the last 2+ years making the idiots each shit-sandwiches everytime they fuck up on the "clean" issue.
well this term is offensive and I'm still wondering where it comes from. in any case, what can we do so that STDs and HIV are not viewed as "dirty", or are we dirty?
Milker.
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YOU THINK WRONG
So it would appear, Philodendron. (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5931)
How time flies.
MtD
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or are we dirty?
Milker.
Ever had a lab technician draw your blood incorrectly and have it spray all over her and her eyes bug out of her head? Yes, we're dirty.
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well this term is offensive and I'm still wondering where it comes from. in any case, what can we do so that STDs and HIV are not viewed as "dirty", or are we dirty?
Throughout history many other illnesses have been considered dirty. (consider leprosy in biblical times with cries of "unclean") unfortunately this isn't anything new :( Sexual repression in society, in more modern times, makes all sexually-related diseases "dirty" to the general public.
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From the perspective of another culture and language - in Hong Kong we speak Cantonese (a major Chinese dialect) and since the beginning of this epidemic the word "AIDS" (Oi Zi Ban) has acquired a connotation that is much nastier and negative than "dirty". You can still hear occasionally school kids saying things like "don't touch me, you have AIDS" on buses, etc while horsing around.
So in a way just by plainly saying that "someone has AIDS" is already considered such a damnation. For years the public health sector has tried to educate people by adopting Chinese terms like "HIV patients", "virus carrier" (a very common a neutral term that covers other diseases like hepatitis, etc). Of course these efforts are mostly in vein.
Shaun
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... in any case, what can we do so that STDs and HIV are not viewed as "dirty", or are we dirty?
Milker.
This has been a frustration in existence longer than your lifetime, milker of men.
People love to make judgements and the language reflects it. In the next decade there will be another term or demeaning phrase to reference 'dirty' from 'non-dirty' which will replace 'clean'. I bet ya I'm spot-on.
xxx,
Mike
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Well, this is what I think about it:
If someone asked me if I was "clean" and I said "why yes, I thoroughly clean myself every day" and they said "no, I mean clap, HIV etc" I would just chalk it up to someone I don't want to hang around. Then I would look at them like I didn't know what they were talking about and smack the piss out of them.
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Clean just means able to pass a test, as in a drug test came back clean. In this case, there were no drugs listed that the person tested positive for. As to STD's, I think it's silly.
What are we expected to say "no, I'm quite dirty. I've got herpes and warts" (I don't have those, by the way; I'm clean ;) ). I generally use it to mean is one clean (enough) for sex.... as in who's gonna be the bitch and whose gonna be the man! Seriously, I've been asked that before, when I was negative. I always answered "I took a shower this morning, but I probably should freshen up some", etc. I don't take it offensively at all. I don't think people generally mean it to be offensive. I think it's just their attempt to stay away from some of the nasties!
David
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But it isn't just us High Fivers that get this. That terminology is hurled at people who have any form of STD.
Show me a sexually active gay man who hasn't had an STD and I'll show you...umm I don't know what ;)
Whenever I see that term "clean" it reminds me off this little nelly I hooked up with back in my neg days. I'm all for safe sex but this little queen kept asking this so obsessively before we even touched, I was sure he was going to try an mount me right then and there! But it was all the twit could do to bring himself to lick my nipple, all the while fretting about being "clean". That's as far as that encounter went.
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Clean just means able to pass a test, as in a drug test came back clean.
oic I didn't know that use thanks.
Milker.
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So Milker,
Has this thread met your expectations so far?
MtD
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Mommy, mommy, some guy on Mancunt.com asked me if I was clean. What shall I say, what shall I say? He's really hot and I want him to fuck me.
Say what you always say dear, "yes sir, squeaky!"
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So Milker,
Has this thread met your expectations so far?
MtD
I'm not sure what this nagging is about, today, Matty. But to answer your question, I didn't know where the term "clean" came from and yes, now I know. I don't think I see another response to "yes, I have showered" so far to counter the "are you clean". Hal, yes, I remember telling a person that had this word in an ad that it was offending and basically the answer was to go fuck myself, which I did since I didn't really know how handle it. Hence the original question, is it yet another HIV stigma that we have to live with, or is there something simple we can do to stop people using this word.
Now if this thread is going to be a bullying thread, I see no point in continuing the conversation, so let me know.
Milker.
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Milker,
I think that a good answer would be "do you mean do I have good hygiene, which I do, or that am I HIV-, which I am not" and let them take it from there.
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Milky,
All we really can do is try to educate people as to why this term is offensive and unacceptable. If they say "fuck off", that's their problem, not mine. I would walk away from someone with that attitude.
Be the change you wish to see.
Ann
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Hal, yes, I remember telling a person that had this word in an ad that it was offending and basically the answer was to go fuck myself, which I did since I didn't really know how handle it.
Milker.
Don't be so sensitive, my response was directed at no one. I was making a comment about online hookups and the irony involved. Piss, shit, fisting etc, and I'm worried about someone asking if I am clean? Admonish the worried wells because we know why they are asking. Online I don't find the generic "clean" much more offensive than disease free. That's all they are asking. I still say most (including you ;)) won't pass up a hot fuck even if they ask if you are clean. Maybe when you're snuggling in the afterglow you might whinge and say it hurts your feelings, but not before.
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I'd like to submit that perhaps if one didn't spend so much time trolling on teh intranets for cockage one might not be so affronted by indelicate language by the unwashed "clean" masses. It's not like mancunt is known for its students of Shakespeare.
Just sayin'
That said, at least you're not lying on your BigMuscle.com profile that you're HIV negative unlike someone else around here.
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One of the replies I can think of is, "why, don't you do safe sex?".
It's strictly from my experiences, people that tend to ask are trying to get some sort of verbal "assurance" so they can do riskier things. If they are confident that we won't be doing anything that have the sightest hint of any risk, there's no reason to ask anyway and mostly they don't. I really do think that, especially among gay guys, those who ask are in their minds doing some serosorting, which as we all know is not a good way to not get infected.
Just my 2 cents, Shaun
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I'd like to submit that perhaps if one didn't spend so much time trolling on teh intranets for cockage one might not be so affronted by indelicate language by the unwashed "clean" masses.
Gotta agree that when the term mainly comes up in meaningless scenarios, which in itself should minimize it, if not just altogether make the issue moot.
It's like someone who trolls manhunt all day and night saying, "No addicts, please" ::)
That said, at least you're not lying on your BigMuscle.com profile that you're HIV negative unlike someone else around here.
:o
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Gotta agree that when the term mainly comes up in meaningless scenarios, which in itself should minimize it, if not just altogether make the issue moot.
It's like someone who trolls manhunt all day and night saying, "No addicts, please" ::)
:o
If it is so prevalent in the AII forum and often coming from heterosexual people, then the use of "clean" has jumped from mancut to the masses, don't you think?
Milker.
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That said, at least you're not lying on your BigMuscle.com profile that you're HIV negative unlike someone else around here.
Why? Andrew Sullivan is HERE? ;D
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If it is so prevalent in the AII forum and often coming from heterosexual people, then the use of "clean" has jumped from mancut to the masses, don't you think?
Milker.
No. I don't agree. The ignorance didn't begin on manhunt (and thus didn't need to jump) - only got a flashier exposure with pretty pictures to boot.
People who use the "clean" label are not interested in information - just perceptions. Whether you play into those perceptions is up to you.
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While this is a topic that can pass some time in discussion, I think in reality there are a whole lot of bigger fish to fry than this one. So I'm gonna quit carping about it.
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People have been using the term "clean" to mean STI-free since Hector was a pup. Well, since I was a pup anyway, and that's years before it was ever used on the internet. It's just one of those things that can only change by educating one person at a time. When we encounter it in Am I, we try to wake that person up to the fact that it's an offensive term.
Ann
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My earlier reply was specifically in reference to HIV related clean/unclean tags.
But then, I wondered why milker keeps asking about the darn word, 'clean'. Having reading all the replies so far I understand now that milker, being a francophone first, is still processing some English words that can have several meanings or implications, depending on how they are use or inferred in conversations.
I think an approach regarding correcting people on usage of this term has to be dealt with on an individual basis. Some are just using the term and not really meaning to be insulting. Others are.
When I hear someone use or say, "I'm clean." ......I normally reference it to being drug-free. It's just the way I process it, first.
Mike
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While this is a topic that can pass some time in discussion, I think in reality there are a whole lot of bigger fish to fry than this one. So I'm gonna quit carping about it.
I tend to agree.
While I don't necessarily like the term, I am not going to let it interfere with getting to know someone or getting a hot fuck. I do try to explain how it isn't an appropriate usage of the word when discussing HIV. However at least they ask or let a person know that they are thinking about HIV and STD's, giving you the opportunity for a learning experience. Perhaps in more ways than one.
Woods
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Mike,
"clean" is used in French to say that someone has taken a shower, for example, and it's not used to say "sti free", I'm sure there is another term for it, but this was not the question. I didn't know the origin of it and that has been explained.
What I feel from the answers is that it's a recognized term, long used, and that apart from telling someone using it that it's offensive there is nothing else we can do, we just live with it.
Milker.
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at least you're not lying on your BigMuscle.com profile that you're HIV negative unlike someone else around here.
O NOZ.
A philly buster.
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What I feel from the answers is that it's a recognized term, long used, and that apart from telling someone using it that it's offensive there is nothing else we can do, we just live with it.
Well...yeah. That's pretty much it (short of Matty's stellar suggestion for cutting out their tongues).
I mean, if it becomes the subject of protest, there are better uses for the poster board and markers than that.
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O NOZ.
A philly buster.
Damn straight. Philicia has a .pdf screen capture of it as well, so fellas don't fuck with me. It's not my first time at the rodeo.
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People who lie about their status have zero credibility on this forum. I am just saying. Plilly, please forward me the .pdf or URL :)
More to the point, people who say one thing (and stridently so) on these forums yet espouse a totally different viewpoint on other web sites are hypocrites, and should not be shocked when this is uncovered.
Just saying.
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and for the record, i'm not trying to be snippy. just not feeling well. it's just suprising to me that this thread would have as much length as this. a lot of it seems a bit, well...masturbatory. feels like we're at the keys here...mostly just stroking away. and without much in the way of poppers to speak of.
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The Term "clean" came from doctors using this terminology... Clean bill of health... thats where the term came from...
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and for the record, i'm not trying to be snippy. just not feeling well. it's just suprising to me that this thread would have as much length as this. a lot of it seems a bit, well...masturbatory. feels like we're at the keys here...mostly just stroking away. and without much in the way of poppers to speak of.
There you go again getting all deep and existential on me.
Did I mention that the boys at Pigmart/Fort Troff are having a sale?
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If you were a Will and Grace fan, you might remember an episode where Grace was dating a character played by Woody Harrelson. There was a scene where they had just come from getting tested and Grace made the comment "we just found out we're clean so now we're going to get dirty". And it got a big laugh. That line has always stayed with me because I was really taken aback when I heard it. Up until that point I had considered it really offensive to equate being clean with being neg but then I heard it on the most popular gay-friendly sit-com on TV and it made me wonder if it was OK it say it. I just wonder how many other gay men, both neg and poz, had the same thought when they heard it.
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Online I don't find the generic "clean" much more offensive than disease free. That's all they are asking. I still say most (including you ;)) won't pass up a hot fuck even if they ask if you are clean. Maybe when you're snuggling in the afterglow you might whinge and say it hurts your feelings, but not before.
Don't bet on it, Hal. I find nothing more offensive and de-hornying than being asked if I'm clean. They get an appropriate serve and I move on. I actually had a hooker once asked me if I was clean, which I found slightly ironic given what we were arranging to set up.
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Would it be bad to say "Yes. But, I'm a pathological liar." ;]
Personally, I'd rather have someone show their ignorance/insensitivity. Helps me to move on without so much time wasted. If I have the energy, I spare some reflection and education for the poor soul. If not, they're their own education control board.
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When I hear someone use or say, "I'm clean." ......I normally reference it to being drug-free. It's just the way I process it, first.
Mike
That's how I've always processed it. It's derived from "clean & sober", I think and carried over from as someone else (Dixie I think?) said, "clean bill of health", which def predates Mancunt et al.
It was also bandied about by the same member who brought us "Blowjob Ninja" if I'm not mistaken, and is part of the verbiage of that whole scene.
Is it offensive? Yeah. Does it offend me when I hear it spoken? Yeah. Do I slap down a WW in AII when it rears its judgmental little head in casual usage? Sure.
But does this subject require a multi-page thread to dissect?
People who use the "C" word to mean HIV- are no more intentionally offensive than I am when I use "neg", which as was once pointed out to me sounds uncomfortably like a racial pejorative by some hyper-sensitive with his own axe to grind.
On my Mancunt profile I have a line that reads:
"When I read D&D free, I tamp out my cigarette and wonder if he'll settle for three out of five."
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..It was also bandied about by the same member who brought us "Blowjob Ninja"...
I must have missed that thread, I'm intrigued...
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I must have missed that thread, I'm intrigued...
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16233.0
Have fun, doll ;)
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It's funny to me how a word can mean different things to people. The word clean never meant anything sexual to me. I always looked at it in terms of drugs/alcohol or the condition of one's person or their housekeeping skills.
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http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16233.0
Have fun, doll ;)
Interesting, I believe I might have qualified for the said "Blowjob Ninja" title back in the day. As to what i could do with a pair of numchucks, well... ;D
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Interesting, I believe I might have qualified for the said "Blowjob Ninja" title back in the day. As to what i could do with a pair of numchucks, well... ;D
The biggest difference between then and now for me is that I tend to squat more than kneel and occasionally need help getting up when I'm done.
Brent
(Who is *still* a Blowjob Ninja)
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The biggest difference between then and now for me is that I tend to squat more than kneel and occasionally need help getting up when I'm done.
Brent
(Who is *still* a Blowjob Ninja)
LOL, I can relate. And there's that cracking sound from my knees that sounds like wood splitting when I get up ;D
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I see many ads from people saying they're "clean". I see a lot of posts from "Am I Infected" saying they're "clean" or someone was supposed to be "clean".
I'm wondering what this term is doing to us, to which extent. It seems to me that it is extremely damaging, and I'm not sure where it comes from. What can we do to stop people using "clean" to say that they're not HIV positive?
Milker.
I am sure everyone here is constantly reminded that we are not "clean", are "infected" with a generally sexually transmitted disease (using needles for recreation doesn't improve our standing much either), and for the most part not part of the "innocent victims of AIDS" that deserve our support and efforts of society.
Diseased Pariah News hasn't put out an issue in what? Close to 2 decades? Stonings. Burnings. Bombings. Murder. Censorship. Leper Colonies. History continues...
OK...So do something about it. A guy I had the hots for (for years) asked me home one day. He blurted out that he was "clean". I told him I was positive, didn't consider myself "dirty" and was offended. And we didn't have "make up" sex either. I am sure he never forgot the conversation. He's actually a very nice guy.
As gay men (this is a harder issue for straight poz), it is absolutely ridiculous that we tolerate "disease free" or "clean" and other terms in our sexual and social culture. I challenge (usually in private) these words whenever they are spoken and quite often when they are written. I run Posts in Craigslist that challenge notions of "disease free" nonsensical sero-sorting (lying will get you what you want), not to mention all the fears of oral sex and HIV. I use the sex angle first. I explain the differences between this or that STD. Then the failed "sorting" and weeding out of POZ in futile game of self delusion and staying "negative". I even run fake (satiric) ads that mix the worst of everything with heavy doses of ignorance and racism. When someone writes "me" I let them know how and why they've been fooled. No one has ever "flagged" one of these ads. Maybe it's a neo-"Situationalist" (they had some folks up North I think) response to cultural vapidness and failed unity. This is what I do. I don't count on "professional leaders" to speak for me. I don't count on them to fight our battles. No, "at least we're at the table" political compromise for me. It's better to lose and make a point sometimes. Especially when someone else is watching. Parroting our oppressors is so common we hardly notice it.
8) -megasept
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Carol Anne: Uh-huh. Diane: Do you see them? Carol Anne: Uh-uh. Do you? Diane: Uh-uh. Tangina: This house is clean. Diane: You were saying about poltergeist.
Poor Phillly,
It saddens me that he spends so much time and emotional energy on me. Perhaps it is bitterness or jealousy. I don't know. I still have a meaning full existence. I work, make excellent money, and contribute to society. I don't ruminate on designer duds I wore decades ago, as if to prove that I was once somebody. Because today I am someone. I too will die of this horrible disease, but my last and most precious moments will be directed at making the lives of others better. Of improviving the human condition. While he watches re-runs of Match Game and the Hollywood Squares.
Philly never really bothered with developing his mind. It was always about the right clothes, and the right body type. Those things never last. Sadly the only thing of permanence in his life is HIV. The one love who never left him.
So go ahead and attack those who have achieved a little more. Be a bittler simpleton on the backside of those who have suffered greatly so that others may suffer less.
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Thanks Carolann, I see you fixed your proxy server keyboard issues you were encountering at that public library. Now, why IS it that we NEVER see you in the Positive Women's section here? Huh? Don't be so koi with your answer!
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Philly,
I think that perhaps the switch from psychotropic meds ot anti-psychotic med would be a good choice.
Tha Borderline Personality Disorder with that hefty case of full blown AIDS has to he a bitch.
"One is the lonliest number that you will ever know.....
Enjoy welfare, you designer wanna be diva!!!
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Philly,
I think that perhaps the switch from psychotropic meds ot anti-psychotic med would be a good choice.
Tha Borderline Personality Disorder with that hefty case of full blown AIDS has to he a bitch.
"One is the lonliest number that you will ever know.....
Enjoy welfare, you designer wanna be diva!!!
Thanks Rob. I appreciate your medical suggestions and will keep them in mind. Personal attacks about designer clothing are one thing, but when you start lobbing cruise missiles about teh AIDS on an HIV web site let's just say that you're really showing your colors and scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Oh, and you've also just attacked EVERY OTHER board member living with AIDS and on disability indirectly with that comment. I'm sure, speaking for many other of my fellow sufferers, that they greatly appreciate your astute commentary.
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BTW Philly, KS is not a beauty mark and a full diaper does not equal a full wallet.
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Carolann, Philly,
I'm giving both of you time outs.
Philly, I know you think Carolann and Koi are one and the same, but don't you think if we had one shred of evidence to back that up, we would have done something about it? It's not your job to jump on people when you think they are a sock puppet. Tell us your concerns instead, via the Report button, instead of flaming in the forum.
Carolann, I'm also giving you a time out because you've flamed in two threads so far today. I'm putting an end to that right now.
Ann
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If I may be bold enough to say... I believe the term "clean" has more recognition with a 12 step program. As in a few years ago, I ran into an old friends younger sister. After exchanging pleasantries, she said, her brother has been "clean and sober" for 20 years. This was an impressive statement to me as I remember the first time, he walked into a meeting and introduced himself as an addict. The following week, another old friend came to the same meeting and introduced herself as an addict. He has a house, a wife and a family and she is a newspaper reporter, is married and also has a family.
In my personal opinion, these two people and thousands of others who have taken the time to work their steps, have the right to use the term "clean". For those of us living with HIV, I say we all took a shower that day ;D Have the best day
Michael
I should probably add that he has seen his girlfriends younger sister pinned in a burning car and die before their eyes. A few years later, an accident with his own sister where he saw her death as well.
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just call me
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Hate it when people say they are clean, well so am I. I take a bath each day, brush teeth, and all the good grooming stuff. Do they even know if they are really clean in their definition of the word? Did they have an std screening right after their last trick or whatever you would like to call it? I agree it is usually narrow minded people who live in a little world all by themselves who think they are clean of everything. When you even dig at some of these people you find many use drugs or whatever else. Just think the world would be a nicer place if people would start to look at people for who they are and not what they have.
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Well in the sense of drugs, I guess I would be dirtier than a mofo but I'm not called Queen Tokelove or The Green Queen for nothing..... ;D Just trying to lighten things up in here. But then since some folks got a lil vacation, I guess I'm a little bit late.... ;D Lighten, oops I mean Light Up!!!!!!
(who happens to be getting dirtier at the moment) ;D
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I see many ads from people saying they're "clean". I see a lot of posts from "Am I Infected" saying they're "clean" or someone was supposed to be "clean".
I'm wondering what this term is doing to us, to which extent. It seems to me that it is extremely damaging, and I'm not sure where it comes from. What can we do to stop people using "clean" to say that they're not HIV positive?
Milker.
Milker, I don't know which term I dislike the most. "clean" or "that's so gay"