Just wondering what everyone thinks about this

[jack]

I am not a conspiracy nut but
http://www.whale.to/b/cantwell9.html

[izprince1984]

Ockham's razor is usually paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the correct one".

So what makes the fewest assumptions?

1. HIV started in Africa, someone had sex with a monkey (common in some places as birth control), got bitten or scratched by one, or whatever, and it jumped species.

2. Some conspiracy nut with a few books to pitch accuses the US government of spending billions of dollars on a black ops project carried out by the military to artificially create a virus to wipe out gay men, the problem with this was that they were smart enough to create the plot, make the virus, and then couldn't figure out that sooner or later that straight people would become infected too, the government then dumps billions more into prevention, testing, and buying medications to artificially extend the lives of AIDS patients.

3. Step 1: AIDS, Step 2: September 11, 2001, Step 3: ?, Step 4: Profit!

[ACinKC]

Looks like the Republicans started the whole thing.


It is VERY interesting to read.  And not IMPOSSIBLE I suppose.

[ACinKC]

Ockham's razor is usually paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the correct one".

So what makes the fewest assumptions?

1. HIV started in Africa, someone had sex with a monkey (common in some places as birth control), got bitten or scratched by one, or whatever, and it jumped species.

2. Some conspiracy nut with a few books to pitch accuses the US government of spending billions of dollars on a black ops project carried out by the military to artificially create a virus to wipe out gay men, the problem with this was that they were smart enough to create the plot, make the virus, and then couldn't figure out that sooner or later that straight people would become infected too, the government then dumps billions more into prevention, testing, and buying medications to artificially extend the lives of AIDS patients.

3. Step 1: AIDS, Step 2: September 11, 2001, Step 3: ?, Step 4: Profit!

With OUR Government...... choice 2 IS the simplest and easiest answer!

[izprince1984]

Looks like the Republicans started the whole thing.


It is VERY interesting to read.  And not IMPOSSIBLE I suppose.

Actually, it's just that people always like a good conspiracy, no matter how irrational.

I could make a webpage that said HIV was caused by the Air Force dropping Agent Orange on Vietnam, and I guarantee that some people would believe it.

[jack]

I thought the article was about a polio vaccine trial on gay men that caused HIV? similiar trials in Africa.

[izprince1984]

With OUR Government...... choice 2 IS the simplest and easiest answer!

Yeah, just that the whole page reads out like a bad sci-fi zombie flick, just change "HIV" to the "Rage Virus".

[milker]

I could make a webpage that said HIV was caused by the Air Force dropping Agent Orange on Vietnam, and I guarantee that some people would believe it.

It's not 

Milker.

[izprince1984]

It's not 

Milker.

No, everyone knows it's from the radiation emitted by flying saucers, duh!

[izprince1984]

I thought the article was about a polio vaccine trial on gay men that caused HIV? similiar trials in Africa.

HIV was seeded into gay men when they volunteered for the experimental hepatitis B vaccine experiment which took place in Manhattan, beginning in November 1978.

hepatitis B experiments using gay men as guinea pigs continued in other American cities until 1981 -the year the AIDS epidemic became official

My two books on the man-made origin of this disease: AIDS and the Doctors of Death [1988] , and Queer Blood: The Secret AIDS Genocide Plot [1993], provide documented evidence to support this theory.

First of all, a SCIENTIST publishes material and submits it for PEER REVIEW, this quack has written some fabrications and then promotes his own books as if they were solid and conclusive evidence to back, get this, HIS OWN claims. (Thats something a reputable scientist would NEVER EVER do)

Second, he uses scare tactics and he uses this "article" as a tidbit to get you to want to purchase the books he wrote, I don't see any evidence outlined in this page, just a few examples of co-incidence, people are naturally suspicious and want to read too much into everything.

[ACinKC]

It's still plausible!  And agent orange wasnt admitted to for DECADES if I recall.  Along with MK-Ultra program and secret CIA prisons... Among other things.....

[Boo Radley]

After reading a few paragraphs I stopped and mentally filed it under BS.

KS has been around a long time and until AIDS it was a "benign" cancer which affected older men of certain ethnicities.  When HIV came on the scene it allowed KS to run wild in an HIV infected person just as Pneumocystis Carinii and toxoplasms and all sorts of other pathogens ravaged infected people.  PCP had never been seen as it manifested itself in AIDS victims unless the person had severe immune deficiencies.  Same with all of the other pathogens which pose little risk to healthy people but can be deadly to someone with AIDS. 

So the entire premise of a "new" virus being responsible for KS sounds like a crock.  The virus which causes KS is probably infecting tons of people, and probably has infected people for ages, but they'll never know because their immune systems are working.  To bolster his theory the doctor or quack or whatever he is would have to test samples of the population for presence of the virus.  If the KS virus was not found in HIV- subjects it would be hard to explain (maybe, but I'm no virologist) but my bet is that many people would be found who harbored the virus but the virus is virtually benign in those with healthy immune systems.

That and $5.75 will buy you a Mocha Frappuccino.

[risred1]

 

Anytime I see a paper that makes "assumptions", and openly makes them as a statement, I have to consider with great suspicion.

The internet is a great source of information. It is also a great source for misinformation.

A long time ago, on a forum as a joke, I posted a note that stated the Internet was going to blow up soon. That's all I stated, I didn't even bother to justify the statement. I got a bunch of replies asking when it was going to happen.

I took care of business and stated it was an example about everything you read isn't necessarily true.

Just like the miracle cures ones sees all the time about supps, the denialists, and now the AIDS is a conspiracy hatched by the CIA.

Be suspicious and look for verification. Check into peoples stated titles. And don't necessarily trust PH-D's or MD's who are selling something.

Things like electricity can kill the aids virus in vitro and therefore is a cure for aids and everything.

That HIV doesn't exist. (Even though we have genome DNA mapped out on HIV at this time).

That AIDS is a conspiracy that covers the entire world, which would mean that all medical doctors and drug company staffs would have to be "in on the deal" to maintain the conspiracy.

That AIDS is Malaria or TB in Africa not AIDS.

Those who propagate these views are really applying the science of developing a cult, seeking to organize people to act on their behalf as a statement of Power over Followers.

Folks like the Moonies or Lyndon Larouche or the Scientology's all essentially recruit the same way. So beware and don't get sucked into stuff that would have you believe something in order to get you to propagate those views.

Naturally, people don't trust the government and authoritative sources! And I'm not a proponent of blindly Trusting the government and authoritative people/pundits. I am a proponent of questioning ALL Authoritative Figures be they Liberal or Conservative or Something Else,  that would claim to have the definitive simplistic answers to our problems. Authoritative Folks that have the answers to problems often are selling something, even though there may not be a price tag attached!

I believe much of this stems from the lack of understanding as to what the scientific process, and the resulting scientific conclusions, is. I am not a scientist, but I do understand how the rules of science essentially work, which revolve around the necessity for peer review and replication of scientific observations in order to further advance out understanding of the universe and the world around us. Naturally, scientific papers are incredibly dry and procedural and hard to understand. (I remember too well trying to work through the old Scientific American from the 70's. Ouch!!)

Because of this, there are those who will interpret, or for the purposes of this commentary, those who will misinform under the guise of science.

So I offer this guidance. Those who claim to be scientific but end up stating political opinions as scientific conclusions are to be questioned and viewed with suspicion.

Just my 2 Cents.

[ACinKC]

I am suddenly craving Kool Aid.  And why did i put on a track suit and nike shoes?

Is it Mmmbop or Hale-Bopp that signifies the end of the world.

[izprince1984]

I am suddenly craving Kool Aid.  And why did i put on a track suit and nike shoes?

"Just Do Yourself" 

Anyway, I dunno, to go jogging? 

[Basquo]

Maybe I can get a group of people planning on AMG '07 to go to the Oakland Zoo with me, then we can just ask the green monkeys what really went down.  Or who.

[jack]

I was just asking cause I had never heard of the Polio Vaccine trials done on gay men before. Is that true?
I know the whole thing reads like the whacko stuff about Bush planning 911 but I can see how experimental vaccines or drugs may have unintended side effects or reactions. 
I love the way the guy worked Nixon into it.

[milker]

Maybe I can get a group of people planning on AMG '07 to go to the Oakland Zoo with me, then we can just ask the green monkeys what really went down.  Or who.

I thought it was green donkeys. Where is this world going  It's not easy being green.

Milker.

[Basquo]

It's not easy being green.

Maybe you should come up for air once in a while!

[fearless]

"Most physicians are wrong in their understanding of most diseases, most of the time."----Cantwell's law

[david25luvit]

I suppose anything is possible...........
but initially when AIDS appeared on the scene both gays and Hatians were considered
the two groups at risk.

[dtwpuck]

I think the Danes did it.  Besides, they had the first known case of AIDS in a white person... and it was a heterosexual female.  But I like blaming Denmark anyway.

[Boo Radley]

I think the Danes did it.  Besides, they had the first known case of AIDS in a white person... and it was a heterosexual female.  But I like blaming Denmark anyway.

Your theory reminds me somewhat of Danish author Isak Dinesen's stories.  Absurdly profound or profoundly absurd, dealer's choice.    (OK, I'm trying here -- I used a smiley sincerely...ish... to show no ill intent -- any pointers?)

Yes, the first victim died in Denmark but she returned home from her humanitarian work in Africa to die, so we still gotta blame that continent. 

Besides, if we didn't blame Africa we might have to address the 20 odd years of general neglect by the world, although even Bush approved money to fight the epidemic raging out of control in many impoverished countries there and around the world (nowhere near enough money but a start).  HIV/AIDS, like smallpox, must be battled on a global scale if the war is to be won.   As with smallpox the wealthier countries have been the first to benefit from medical advances but clearly the pandemic must be dealt with as such, by every nation that can donate drachma(s?) or send medical teams or do whatever they can to fight globally.       

If there is a smoking gun in the natural or unnatural history of HIV/AIDS I've never seen a trace of it, nor smelled the acrid, sulfurous smoke.  But my nasal passages have been nothing more than repositories for floating detritus since junior high, so maybe the smell wafted right past my nose.

[izprince1984]

Your theory reminds me somewhat of Danish author Isak Dinesen's stories.  Absurdly profound or profoundly absurd, dealer's choice.    (OK, I'm trying here -- I used a smiley sincerely...ish... to show no ill intent -- any pointers?)

Yes, the first victim died in Denmark but she returned home from her humanitarian work in Africa to die, so we still gotta blame that continent. 

Besides, if we didn't blame Africa we might have to address the 20 odd years of general neglect by the world, although even Bush approved money to fight the epidemic raging out of control in many impoverished countries there and around the world (nowhere near enough money but a start).  HIV/AIDS, like smallpox, must be battled on a global scale if the war is to be won.   As with smallpox the wealthier countries have been the first to benefit from medical advances but clearly the pandemic must be dealt with as such, by every nation that can donate drachma(s?) or send medical teams or do whatever they can to fight globally.       

If there is a smoking gun in the natural or unnatural history of HIV/AIDS I've never seen a trace of it, nor smelled the acrid, sulfurous smoke.  But my nasal passages have been nothing more than repositories for floating detritus since junior high, so maybe the smell wafted right past my nose.

Africa was where the disease started.

Now that it's raging out of control and there's no point in even trying to contain it, the Bush Administration approves a pittance to go over and help, of course the majority of the money isn't for education about the disease, the medicines to  protect babies from getting it from their mothers, or on condoms and clean needles, it's about promoting "Abstinence Until Marriage", which has been thoroughly debunked by every credible study on it, yeat still keeps getting funded somehow.

[Boo Radley]

Africa was where the disease started.

Now that it's raging out of control and there's no point in even trying to contain it, the Bush Administration approves a pittance to go over and help, of course the majority of the money isn't for education about the disease, the medicines to  protect babies from getting it from their mothers, or on condoms and clean needles, it's about promoting "Abstinence Until Marriage", which has been thoroughly debunked by every credible study on it, yeat still keeps getting funded somehow.

Well, exactly.  I mean, we taxpayers don't want our hard-earned dollars to be spent immorally on something as sinful as condoms for sexually active teens and young adults because, as everyone knows, condoms are not 100% effective against stopping the spread of HIV (99.9% just isn't an acceptable benefit/risk ratio).  The ONLY proven method is total sexual abstinence, so hormonally charged children, of all races and creeds, can be taught ONLY abstinence and abstinence ONLY.  Besides, as you noted, it's too late for our bandaid response so let mother nature have her way, the natural way.

Surely anyone with common sense can see these fine but essential distinctions.  The war against AIDS will be won one virgin at a time... no matter how many people are getting infected via immoral sexual activity (i.e., outside the confines of good heterosexual marriage coupling).  Besides, the USA might be able to scoop up a country imploded on itself in abject chaos and colonialize spread democracy as we have so brilliantly done in Iraq, among other places.  Ask any honest Iraqi (i.e., the ones who accept the rescue of Iraq from a nonexistent WMD-wielding madman and appreciate all the US has done to improve their lives) and the love and adoration of Bush and the USA is striking and warms the soul. 

Ignore the man behind the curtain, the great and powerful Oz commands you!!

[aupointillimite]

Africa is where most of our diseases come from, which makes sense because the human race evolved there, so any micro-organism that is able to infect us is likely to come from there too, for the simple reason that it's the plot of real estate we've been stomping on the longest.

Like Boo, I read a couple of paragraphs, but regarding the brouhaha that artcle seems to make over KS... couldn't you make it over CMV?

CMV in people with healthy immune systems either causes a bad cold or no symptoms at all... if your immune system is suppressed, this same virus eats your retinas.  Why no freakout over CMV?