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Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: edfu on March 25, 2007, 12:30:52 am

Title: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: edfu on March 25, 2007, 12:30:52 am
http://uwnews.washington.edu/ni/article.asp?articleID=1936

http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite-KB-ref.jsp?page=kb-06-02-01&rf=117

The current controversial topics on this board regarding the possible danger of oral sex and those HIV-positives who are fearful of sexual activity in general have led me to believe that another, less discussed, controversy also needs some discussion. 

Kaposi's sarcoma has long been recognized as a primary opportunistic infection of AIDS.  In 1995 Human Herpesvirus Type 8 (HHV-8) was discovered to be the cause of KS and was long thought to be sexually transmitted.  Those with HIV infection and KS are thus actually suffering from two separate viruses. 

In December 2000 the New England Journal of Medicine published a shocking article, "Mucosal Shedding of Human Herpesvirus 8 in Men," which reported that that HHV-8 can be--and most likely is--spread via saliva, particularly during deep, or "French," kissing.  A study conducted in Seattle discovered that HHV-8 was found in saliva 30 times more frequently than in semen amongst those infected with HHV-8.  (See links above.)  The final conclusion of the NEJM article states:  "Oral exposure to infectious saliva is a potential risk factor for the acquisition of HHV-8 among MSM.  Hence currently recommended safer sex practices may not protect against HHV-8 infection."

Not everyone infected with HHV-8 goes on to develop KS, and it is believed now that effective use of HAART prevents its occurrence, but there is now scientific evidence that shows how HIV potentiates the development of KS if one is also infected with HHV-8.  It was also believed at one time that no one with HHV-8 develops KS without a severely compromised immune system.  It is now recognized that KS can occur (or reoccur) at any CD4 level, unlike most other classic AIDS OI's.  Numerous dermatologists with extensive KS and AIDS practices are now also reporting anecdotally (including my own prominent dermatologist in NYC) cases of HIV-negative gay men with KS. 

The point is simply this:  Although it is correct to state that kissing and saliva is not an actual mechanism for HIV transmission, it is highly likely that it may be an actual mechanism for HHV-8 transmission, which can result in KS.  The comparative silence that has enveloped this development reminds me very much of the early days of the AIDS epidemic in 1982, when so many responsible authorities and community leaders stated that we could not tell people how to have sex and that we must avoid a panic.  After all, if kissing can be so dangerous, what is left now?   Am I alone in believing that this is something that should be more generally known? 

Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: scotttt on March 25, 2007, 12:59:08 am
I was just waiting for this to come up when it was suggested that saliva is an infectious agent in HIV transmission.  Step aside mono, KS is the new kissing disease......

I have actually read the research you have brought up.  Interesting stuff.  I just hope it can be looked at in a manner that does not stir up undue panic and that we can be kind to one another in the process. 



Edited to add:

I will behave better in this thread than I did in the oral sex thread.   ;)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Bucko on March 25, 2007, 01:09:59 am
If I make it to fifty-five, it'll be a miracle.

Brent
(Who seems to only like what's bad for him)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Dachshund on March 25, 2007, 07:29:38 am
If I make it to fifty-five, it'll be a miracle.

Brent
(Who seems to only like what's bad for him)


I will be fifty-five in May. ;)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Bucko on March 25, 2007, 03:29:32 pm
On you it works, dear. On me, it'll be like that Kipling poem:

A fool there was
And he made a prayer
(Even as you or I)
To a rag and a bone and a hank of hair


Brent
(Who has been compared to Theda Bara)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 25, 2007, 03:39:25 pm
We should all wrap ourselves in Saran Wrap from head to toe and be done with it.

Tim

(Who will happily trade an early grave for a life of passionate kisses and good head anytime.)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Central79 on March 25, 2007, 03:42:31 pm
Oh no.

It's all true. But HAART definitely sorts it out to a large extent. And the oncological treatment is pretty good. The people that worry me are those who develop it with a CD4 of 600.

That's all I'm gonna say. Otherwise we're all gonna be reduced to living inside plastic bags. Maybe I'll just throw in interesting (depending on your PoV) facts from time to time: for example, did you know that smoking cigarettes and/or crack cocaine are protective against KS?

So in summary, less kissing - more crack.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: aupointillimite on March 25, 2007, 03:44:34 pm
Molehill... meet my good friend mountain.  You two are very different, aren't you?  Enjoy.

Anyone who allows this to get in the way of kissing other people is a giant pussy.

I said it, and I'm standing by it.

What should we do now?  Live in biocontainment areas and make others gargle with bleach before making out with people?

Oh, and oxygen causes cancer.  It does.  For real.  Cue the freakout.

Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 25, 2007, 03:50:28 pm
Oh no.

It's all true. But HAART definitely sorts it out to a large extent. And the oncological treatment is pretty good. The people that worry me are those who develop it with a CD4 of 600.

That's all I'm gonna say. Otherwise we're all gonna be reduced to living inside plastic bags. Maybe I'll just throw in interesting (depending on your PoV) facts from time to time: for example, did you know that smoking cigarettes and/or crack cocaine are protective against KS?

So in summary, less kissing - more crack.

OK-  I have to bite on this one.  PLEASE enlighten me on how smoking cigs and/or crack helps prevent KS?

Tim

(Who is looking to work up a good medicinal excuse.  I got bad habits, bad habits...)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Central79 on March 25, 2007, 03:56:40 pm
 :D Thought you might!  ;)

(Takes deep breath). I dunno to be perfectly honest. Both are associated with a lower risk of contracting HHV-8. I'm not sure what effect they have once you're HHV8 positive.

I guess that the smoke kills HHV8 in the oral cavity. It kills everything else! Or maybe smokers salivate less, and have drier mouths less hospitable to HHV8.

Answers on a postcard please!
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: aupointillimite on March 25, 2007, 03:59:07 pm
Thank God.

My theory about creating an inhospitable environment to viruses through smoking and drugging applies to something!  Huzzah!

I've been smoking since before I started having sex... so I imagine many KS viruses have bitten the dust in my nicotine laden mouth.  Ha ha ha!
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Central79 on March 25, 2007, 04:02:12 pm
You see - in a few short posts we've identified a problem, gone through the 7 stages of grief, and identified a cure! 

All we need to do is distil Benj and inject him into the buttocks of every HIV+ gay man. Quickly! Grab that chain-smoking, francophone American!

Gosh I'm feeling rather whimsical this evening.

Edited to add: I apologise. There are only 5 stages of grief. Unless you are French, in which case "bargaining" is further subdivided into bargaining with a) God; b) the government and c) the European Union.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: aupointillimite on March 25, 2007, 04:05:10 pm
All we need to do is distil Benj and inject him into the buttocks of every HIV+ gay man.

Huzzah!

I could be my own vodka! 

Smoked Benj's Boozy Kalopsi's Sarcoma Cure All.

I wish that it be sold by unscrupulous men twirling mustaches.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Central79 on March 25, 2007, 04:12:05 pm
You missed out the word "patented". An integral part of any quack cure...

There's a distinct shortage of moustache twirling men these days. I think the genes for it died out with the decimation of the RAF in WW1 and 2. If only we'd had sperm banks, this country would be so much better today. And by better I mean hisute and slimey!

Edited to add: I miss Terry Thomas.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: keypps on March 25, 2007, 04:25:47 pm
So all those guys that will not date (dating usually = kissing -- I would hope) a smoker might rethink...Did my stock just go up in the world of dating?
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Central79 on March 25, 2007, 04:27:24 pm
I guess that rather depends on whether the smoking is also making you impotent...  ::)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: edfu on March 25, 2007, 04:38:11 pm
Well, Bucko, I'm 64 and was infected in 1982 or earlier, when I put on my metaphorical plastic bag and went celibate ever since.  I developed KS in 2001 and began HAART.  Admittedly, I'm a longtime non-progressor who finally progressed.  My KS is in remission (my lesions have completely disappeared, without chemo), and my CD4 is over 500.    

Matt, I've been a smoker since I was 17, and it didn't help me.  

I also happen to have an HIV-negative friend who's been diagnosed with KS.  He's Irish.  So much for the classic Mediterranean connection for non-HIV related KS.  

Aupoint:  If you've watched and experienced over 150 friends and acquaintances die from AIDS complications, many covered with virulent KS lesions from head to toe, you do indeed become a "giant pussy."  I will not apologize for that. 
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: aupointillimite on March 25, 2007, 04:42:17 pm
Aupoint:  If you've watched and experienced over 150 friends and acquaintainces die from AIDS complications, many covered with virulent KS lesions from head to toe, you do indeed become a "giant pussy."  I will not apologize for that. 

Should we all stop breathing to stop cellular damage from free radical oxygen molecules as well?
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: edfu on March 25, 2007, 04:53:12 pm
Aupoint, your point has been well recognized recently on this forum in the disputations between the attitudes of newbies, some of whom admit they've never known anyone to die of AIDS, and some of us old-timers, who saw everyone we knew who was infected ultimately die.  This went on for over 20 years. I'm not going to enter that debate other than to point out there is a distinct AIDS generation gap.   
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: aupointillimite on March 25, 2007, 05:00:20 pm
Actually, I know two people to have died from AIDS, one of whom was a family member... and one of whom was very close to me when I was a child.

So yeah.  You know... a lot of times, my ridiculous pronouncements aren't made out of complete fucking ignorance.

But if it makes you more comfortable to chalk it up to the young'un who you think doesn't know what he's talking about, then go right ahead.

Whatever.

Before leaving this thread to allow the sky to fall on everyone, I will ask... KS isn't the only OI, is it?
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Matty the Damned on March 25, 2007, 05:07:42 pm
Matty the Damned finds this sort of stuff interesting.

The overwhelming majority of us contracted HIV from unprotected anal and/or vaginal sex and (with possibly a few exceptions) we knew that was a risk for transmission. Even the tweakers don't have an excuse.

And now we should worry about blow-jobs and kissing?

As for as I can tell this isn't just a case of "mountain meet molehill" but "stable door wave goodbye to bolting horse".

MtD
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Central79 on March 25, 2007, 05:09:08 pm
Steady now!

I certainly never meant to suggest that taking up smoking would be a good idea - hence my slightly tongue in cheek reference to impotence. Lung cancer is another good reason not to bother.

Edfu, I'm really glad that HAART got you back on track and put your KS into remission. I've seen this happen with even quite advanced cases of KS, where I've taken an interest for obvious reasons - it's still something that happens in the HAART era, and so could actually be something uniting newbies and oldies for a change. If you've ever been to London, you'll know the phrase "MIND THE GAP" and I do, I know it's not the same - but it's something.

It is increasing in HIV -ve people. This is interesting and I don't pretend to know why it's occurring. I haven't read any literature linking the amount of HHV8 to the likelihood of KS. Interestingly, it's quite prevalent amongst old Jewish men too. I need to do some reading.

M.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: milker on March 25, 2007, 05:09:35 pm
I guess I can't say "kiss my ass" anymore either  :-\

Milker
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: edfu on March 25, 2007, 05:11:11 pm
Aupoint:  No, KS isn't the only OI, but it's the only one that scientists believe originate in the exchange of saliva.  

Also, two deaths are tragic and deserving of sincere condolence.  They are not, however, equivalent to the psychological trauma of over 150 deaths and the disappearance of one's entire social and support circle.  I never said you didn't know what you were talking about; you are talking about your life experience.  I am talking about mine.  They are simply radically different.  
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Central79 on March 25, 2007, 05:51:34 pm
I guess I can't say "kiss my ass" anymore either  :-\

Shigella! Cholera! E.coli! This is Miss Jean Brodie warning you!
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Buckmark on March 25, 2007, 06:09:41 pm
Boy howdy -- now I have to worry about kissing?  There are few things I can think of that are more pleasurable and stimulating than a nice, long makeout session with a man who's a good kisser.  Not that I've had the occasion to do so in a long time, so this is all from my recollection.  :P

Cheers,

Henry
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 25, 2007, 06:16:27 pm
I really hate "my hurt means more than your's does" arguments.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Ihavehope on March 25, 2007, 06:22:07 pm
I learn something new everyday. I didn't realize that kissing was also dangerous. Thanks for the input.

Al

(who now can't even kiss)  >:(
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: edfu on March 25, 2007, 06:45:58 pm
thunter:  I'm sorry my comments came across to you in that way.  It wasn't my intent.  I was trying to explain the difference between grief and trauma to one who chose to revert to ridicule by referring to free radical oxygen molecules.  However, I wouldn't expect someone who advises the use of Saran Wrap to understand the intense psychological issues here or to make a rational contribution to this discussion.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: aupointillimite on March 25, 2007, 06:51:53 pm
Edited to remove reckless comments.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Miss Philicia on March 25, 2007, 06:55:29 pm
IBTL

(in before the lock)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: bocker3 on March 25, 2007, 07:09:27 pm
Why can't people state their sides without getting nasty, snotty and just plain mean.  The last time I was watching my grandson (who is 5) and he acted like that -- I sent him to bed to early.
I mean come on -- we are all adults.  Just because someone states his thoughts on something doesn't mean he's stating everyone else needs to do the same thing.

Why don't we all grow up here.  (and NO -- that is not a swipe at anyone's actual age -- immaturity happens at all ages).

Mike
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: aupointillimite on March 25, 2007, 07:13:52 pm
Why can't people state their sides without getting nasty, snotty and just plain mean.  The last time I was watching my grandson (who is 5) and he acted like that -- I sent him to bed to early.
I mean come on -- we are all adults.  Just because someone states his thoughts on something doesn't mean he's stating everyone else needs to do the same thing.

Why don't we all grow up here.  (and NO -- that is not a swipe at anyone's actual age -- immaturity happens at all ages).

Mike

You're right.

Perhaps I went a smidge too far.  Appy polly loggies and all that.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Miss Philicia on March 25, 2007, 07:16:21 pm
(http://homepage.mac.com/bedstuy65/.Pictures/internetseriousbusiness.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: milker on March 25, 2007, 07:17:51 pm
So what's left? Masturbation? Mutual, at least? I provide the gloves!

Milker.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Miss Philicia on March 25, 2007, 07:21:17 pm
I stick to heavy duty fisting and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Ihavehope on March 25, 2007, 07:26:47 pm
You're right.

Perhaps I went a smidge too far.  Appy polly loggies and all that.

so mature of u Aupo.. bravo..
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: edfu on March 25, 2007, 07:34:41 pm
The only suggestions I've made, aupoint, are that this matter needs to be better known and is deserving of discussion.  (I've just noticed you've decided your last comments were "reckless" and have been deleted.)  Perhaps you haven't noticed the question mark in my topic heading.  Nowhere did I imply that anyone ought to follow my own path of celibacy, which was a result of a nervous breakdown when all around me were sick and literally dying.  You and thunter never experienced that. 

When I stopped having sex, it was long before there was an HIV test available, long before HIV had even been identified, but I intuitively knew  I was already infected via my interactions with my sick friends.  I had hardly been a virgin prior to 1982, having lived an extremely active (and one thought "healthy" at the time) sex life from 1962 to 1982, participating in everything New York City, Fire Island, and St. Mark's Baths had to offer.  To be perfectly frank and blunt here, I had once estimated that I had had approximately 3,000 sexual encounters during those halcyon years of gay liberation.  So I am as pure as the driven slush and am not passing judgment on anyone.

In retrospect, I realize that my decision, deemed even loonier then than now, resulted in my not infecting even more guys, and I console myself (slightly) with that.  It's certainly much easier now that I'm 64, so I also avoid all of that frustration.  I know too well what 24-year-old guys like yourself think of 64-year-old gay men when we're out trolling for sex.     

If I seem obsessed with the topic of saliva and KS, it's because of my own history with KS and my own history from 1982 to 1990, when I had to fight tooth and nail with every gay organization, including GMHC, about formulating official recommendations about what constituted safer sex.  We lost many men then because the official line always was "We can't tell people how to have sex."   
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: milker on March 25, 2007, 08:05:25 pm
I know too well what 24-year-old guys like yourself think of 64-year-old gay men when we're out trolling for sex.     

Oh please.... Your post started well but this sentence was absolutely not necessary. This is aidsmeds.com, not fuckmycunt.com.

Milker.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: AtomicA on March 25, 2007, 08:54:48 pm
I think all y'all should go and take a class entitled "The Sociology of Health and Illness" which is a pre-req for any medically related degree in Alberta. I think you'll find that all this information that we've been getting about scary new ways for being human to kill you is designed, though unintentionally so, in such a way as to terrify us into thinking that every little thing we do is irresponsible and therefore morally wrong.

Since only crazy neo-naziesque christians still use the word 'sin' in casual conversation and mean it, our society has had to manufacture new ways of describing morally abhorrant actions in a seemingly scientific, objective way. The word 'risk' never use to mean something bad. it was a word used by statisticians to denote the likelihood of an event occuring. We have now evolved in our use of said word to use it in place of 'sin'

having unprotected sex is a 'high risk behaviour' - translated to mean morally wrong, which allows us to assign blame and therefore some form of moral judgement upon the people who do it. This also allows us to say that contracting HIV is that own person's 'fault' another word wrapped up in negative moral connotations.

So over the span of 25 years we managed to turn the most natural of human activities, the very reason we are all born in the first place as well as something that every other animal on the planet does frequently, publicly and without a second thought - into an moral game of russian roulette in which the consequences are death. Now I know that sexual activity has always been subject to taboos, but never taboos that dress themselves up in labcoats and make moral judgements based entirely on the premise of scientific rationality. At least the church is honest about the fact that they are judging us.
I'm not saying that telling people to use condoms is a bad thing, it's a very good thing. But telling people that if they don't use condoms they are personally responsible for any bad thing that comes their way and that they should and will be judged as deviant in the eyes of the common public scares me.
Now we're going to try and do the same thing to kissing?

well, KS is caused by a virus. alright so is cervical cancer (which, now that we know is caused largely by an STD will inevitably become a dirty, morally judged disease like HIV... just give it time). So are most of the other diseases people get. MS may have viral roots. So what? Eating fatty foods and processed sugar and smoking and not getting enough excercise and not eating enough veggies and living in houses with paint and carpet and using detergents and preservatives are all going to kill you too. Life is dangerous.
The fact remains that for people with stable CD4 counts and people who do not have HIV, driving in your car every day poses MUCH more serious, devastating and immediate 'risks' than KS ever will. Just as an aside, it should also be mentioned if this disease can affect people with no HIV and normal CD4 counts, why are people talking about this is reference to gay people at all? ANYONE can get it, easily. lord knows I made out with hundreds of hot chicks when I was drunk over the course of highschool...

I guess my point is while it's great that these researchers have found out this interesting piece of information, I would ask them "so the fuck what?" At the risk of sounding brash, I like living, I like kissing and I like driving in my car. Might they one day kill me... maybe. But they are a part of being alive and to try and live 'risk free' and thus not be judged as morally culpable and deserving of all the bad things that may (and that's a big MAY, not will) happen because of them isn't worth trading in my humanity. I think it's time we stopped letting people tell us to feel guilty for being human.

Not to say we should all take up skydiving or fuck 100 people in a week... that's just silly. But let's be reasonable here. Might you get a virus from kissing? Sure. would it be worth living if we stopped? Hell no!

and PS, if it really were that big of a risk to people with normal CD4 counts, I promise KS would have wiped us out LONG ago. People kiss a whole lot more than they fuck. To the people with HIV, well if you've got HIV sugar... the milk is likely already spilled in this case to. Don't waste your time or your energy crying about it.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 25, 2007, 09:07:56 pm
thunter:  I'm sorry my comments came across to you in that way.  It wasn't my intent.  I was trying to explain the difference between grief and trauma to one who chose to revert to ridicule by referring to free radical oxygen molecules.  However, I wouldn't expect someone who advises the use of Saran Wrap to understand the intense psychological issues here or to make a rational contribution to this discussion.

At least now I understand where the FU in your name comes from.  Yeesh.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: milker on March 25, 2007, 09:10:35 pm
I guess my point is while it's great that these researchers have found out this interesting piece of information, I would ask them "so the fuck what?"

Nice post, AtomicA. On that particular sentence, I would say that it's good to have researchers discover those kind of things. But I would then say that it's bad to look at all medical publications and make a general statement from them. Those were from 2000, it's been 7 years already, and I've done some research, I found a few other documents about this since 2000, but nothing alarming.

So I respect edfu for his warning to the community, because we are weakened by the HIV virus and this is something to take into consideration. However, if I was to read all medical publications that are related to human contact and take them for granted I'd just start digging my grave right now, seriously.

Same thing goes with "breakthrough discoveries", step back, relax, read the fine print, wait for the studies, the results. When I see studies that are "extremely promising" and were done with 7 men, 4 on placebo, no women but 120 mice, I can only frown at how this study is being conducted and how serious it is.

Milker.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 25, 2007, 09:12:20 pm
Dagnabbit!  I completely spaced there myself!  I also meant to say, "Welcome back around, AtomicA" in my last post.  Great post about risk = guilt, btw. 
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: edfu on March 25, 2007, 10:24:38 pm
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, thunter, but "edfu" comes from the name of a town in Egypt on the Nile between Luxor and Aswan.  The ruins of the Temple of Horus in Edfu, begun in 237 B.C. under Ptolemy III, are magnificent and little known.  When I made a trip to the little-known archaeological sites of ancient Egypt, my compatriots graced me with the nickname, but only because my first name is indeed Ed.

And thank you, Atomic, for a most reasonable post.  It is indeed all about decisions regarding risk-taking, but such decisions can't be made without knowing about the risk, can they?   
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: scotttt on March 25, 2007, 10:45:15 pm
I have also read about KS cases among HIV neg gay men. 

We have to understand once again that we are dealing with viral infections.  Sadly, anything remotely associated with homosexual erotic contact carries with it some degree of societal shame and shame laden warnings about "risky" behaviors.

If you are too worried to kiss someone else, don't kiss.

 I have a friend who is a 31 year old virgin.  He is afraid of even giving a hand job because he thinks he could possible get herpes on his fingers.  He is a very intelligent and kind person, but his fear has prevented him from enjoying his sexuality.  He feels the risks associated with sexual contact outweigh the possible pleasures.  I feel that a life half lived isn't worth living.  We agree to disagree. 

Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Dachshund on March 25, 2007, 11:09:49 pm




gay=guilt
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Lis on March 25, 2007, 11:18:17 pm
only if he/she bites
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Dachshund on March 25, 2007, 11:30:55 pm
Kissing is only dangerous if you are carrying a gun.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: edfu on March 25, 2007, 11:49:12 pm
Scottt and Dachs:  What's the difference between guilt and fear?  Is there any?
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Dachshund on March 25, 2007, 11:56:49 pm
Scottt and Dachs:  What's the difference between guilt and fear?  Is there any?


ted haggert and being caught
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 26, 2007, 12:11:09 am

ted haggert and being caught

OK I publicly acknowledge that I love you now more than ever.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Bucko on March 26, 2007, 01:16:34 am
AtomicA- fab post, doll. It's what I'd have written if I hadn't been pressed for work and all. Thank you, again, for taking the (better) words right out of my mouth.

Everyone does understand that allusions to Theda Bara mean that my ironystick is set on stun, right?

If only the rules weren't so heavily enforced, I'd say what I really think about Edfu and the direction he's taken this thread. But I can edit my rage to shaking-teacup level and say this:

Benj is a wise soul wrapped up in a precocious bundle of energy and vitality. He is fluent in nearly every byway of obscure reference I can throw at him and tosses a few new ones at me daily (no easy feat). If he coats his tongue in sarcasm it's because that's his nature, which is as astonishingly like looking into a twenty-five year old mirror for me. Misread him at your peril, dear. Your bitterness is exceedingly unfabulous.

I can match you funeral to funeral, memorial services included. I've buried as much love and support, and at a more tender age. Suggesting that his humor has no place in what is, frankly, a laughable postulation of collaboration and impossible thesis of abstinence seems unnecessarily grim, doll.And your dismissal of his experience in misery as being ultimately unworthy of comparison is so very sad. Must we really line up our suffering and construct a grief-gap around here?

Your treatment of Tim is equally unwise and reeks of an appalling bitterness. But spending so much time in celebacy seems to have rid you of compassion and empathy as well.

There is a chasm of difference between guilt and fear. Fear prevents one from living at all, guilt prevents one from trying anything fun again. Fear is biological, guilt is a learned response to the harsh judgements of others.

Brent
(Who is shemsu hor)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: edfu on March 26, 2007, 03:29:12 am
I confess to being deeply honored by being so roundly castigated and put in my place by someone I now realize authors a blog entitled "Titpig's Adventures in Barebacking," where one can find a veritable bible of lessons in compassion and empathy.  I humbly bow my head in remorse at the bitterness that has truly overcome me.   
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Bucko on March 26, 2007, 04:35:31 am
If you had read any part of it you'd have seen how erroneous such assumptions can be, Eddie. I have tremendous empathy for my sexual partners and am deeply compassionate with them. In fact, I can quote a bit here which illustrates a fraction of my affection:

In the hours I spent on-line, several profiles intrigued me, but I’d always resisted contacting them because the true dynamic of such encounters made me slightly uneasy. Principal among these were guys looking to play more intensely submissive roles than I’d customarily considered. I’ve always preferred a more active participant, someone who brought their full power of wit and enthusiasm to bed, and had always considered submissive and passive to be synonymous.

As much as you'd care to see me as something I'm not, I clearly see you as a misanthrope. Anyone who would honestly claim that kissing leads to KS (and should therefore be avoided) cares little for humanity beyond those for whom the libido has been mothballed. I pursue a more active and continuing role in society. And yes, I'm empathetic, compassionate, committed to understanding those around me (and myself) better through all kinds of social intercourse, most especially the types that involve the maximum exchange of body fluids.

If your memory is as clear as your disdain, you might remember such things, how they felt and the rewards they brought you. I'm still involved and vital and make no apologies in that regard.

Brent
(Who lives and dies by the sword of truth)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Bucko on March 26, 2007, 04:47:38 am
And since you brought it up, the blog's called The Spin Cycle, and I am a senior contributor and co-founder. We have published insightful and provocative articles since July 2005 and have a loyal fan base.

The name of the article you saw is called "Deep Inside Mancunt, or Titpig's Adventures in Barebacking Part 7: The Brazilian Bowelwash (Part 1)".

Part 2 will be have the added title: "One Leaks, the Other Doesn't". It's a pun on the title of an old lesbian film from the 70s.


 :-*
Bucko the Depraved
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Moffie65 on March 26, 2007, 06:56:33 am
I find it interesting that Edfu came up with this posting and the reference articles to spur conversation.  First off, I didn't realize he was a peer, and secondly, I found his stated "Choice" of celebacy, one of consious action in dealing with a virus none of us knew anything about.  I will not judge him in any way for the decisions he might have made, as many of us have at one time or another been faced with such decisions. 

For myself, I was a tad bit less restrictive in my personal habits in the early days, and was far more tempted to go to a nice "pee party" than to stay at home and keep away from all sexual contact.  I suppose one should not judge others for their decisions, made so many years in the past, based on so little information; at least comparred to what is available today. 

Other than that, I have also suffered the disease of red spots and the attendant worry about what is now going on and will I survive this.  It isn't really pretty, but in this sanitized format of an online conversation that is completely disconnected from anything really physical or anything "real"; we need to remember that sometimes we say and donate things here that strike a particularly doubous note to the reader.  That is the main reason that I constantly advocate for people to think a bit before letting the keystrokes fly.  Before this thread, I never had a clue as to Edfu's age or experience, so while some of you find his postulations a bit annoying, I found a plethora of information that brought me some peace in that this man was a kindred spirit, walking in another parallel universe to mine.  How amazing is that?

I understand that emotions can get a bit heated here, and I also realize that with the group in this thread, there is not one bit of intellect lacking at all.  I would love to see a conversation like this with all the attendant contributors in one room in real time.  I bet a lot of money, that we would find a load of interesting people that have a some very interesting views on many things.  Unfortunately, those of us that have a few more years under our belts, also have a disadvantage of using this medium to it's fullest advantage.  Therefore, I think we should all agree that in fact Benj has his valid views of our handling of this pandemic, as well as Edfu's views of how he handled the things he has been through. 

All I know is that this disease is one that will be throwing us curves for many years to come, and those of us who have been living with it's attendant uncertainty and it's actual horrors; will at times have to keep our selves quiet and make every attempt to avoid un-necessary spats over what has become a very personal experience to us.  Living with this disease for 24 years or so, and having passed the dredded age of 60, presents one with issues far beyond the impact of a kiss from someone with KS.  No, I am afraid that not one of you has even begun to really face the reality of this disease, until you are sitting all alone in your home and ask one of those stupid but vexing questions; "Just how long am I going to try to live and deal with this disease?"  Yes guys, there are far more vexing questions in your future, but in the meantime, I say go ahead and buy the industrial size roll of siran wrap from Costco, have your fun with it, and still keep in mind that your experience with HIV and how you deal with it is strictly yours and nobody elses'.  I have been reminded here on more than one occasion that my views on how I deal with this disease are mine and mine alone.  Often times, there is little or no sympathy for my views, yet in my life, my decisions are paramount to my survival and my good health.

What does this post mean?   Shit, I don't know, but I do know that I see here a bit of a bashing of someone who really didn't deserve it.  Shit, I should just delete this whole thing before I even re-read it, but after reading the whole thread, I was torn to bits; feeling a bit of sorrow for Edfu for being the brunt of some statements that were un-necessary, and those comments from Benj, Brent, and Tim.  All of whom I have a huge amount of respect for.  Unfortunately guys, we sometimes screw up here and pick on people that really don't deserve it.  After all, did any of you know Edfu was 64 when you started to read this thread.  I sure didn't, and in person, I never discount the experiences or words of a person of that age, unless of course they are totally not worthy.  I think Edfu and his views, experiences, and observations are totally worthy.  Unfortunately, I also think some of the snide and comical remarks are also worthy, but unfortunately, this medium compeltely strips any humanity from the language.

Nuff Said,

Love,
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: bocker3 on March 26, 2007, 07:11:39 am
I find it funny that in other posts, there are people who castigate others for not putting more weight on scientific studies than on anecdotes, yet here someone is being attacked for asking a question stemming from something read in a scientific journal.

I do not believe that anyone has said that we should all stop kissing.  I, for one, have no intention of doing so.  I’m sure that, if HHV-8 is transmitted via kissing, that I have already acquired it.  I am also sure that it takes something else (probably a number of something else’s) for HHV-8 to manifest as KS, so I’m not going to PERSONALLY worry much about it.

What I’m seeing a lot of lately is people being attacked for their thoughts, fears and feelings.  Yes, I agree that people shouldn’t try and make their grief seem bigger than someone else’s grief.  However these personal attacks are unlikely to change anyone’s mind and will likely have the opposite effect.  So, let’s all try to take personal attacks out and debate subjects -- to quote an old show that I’m not sure I actually liked much when it was on, “Just the facts, ma’am, just the facts.”

Mike

One last thing – if we are so concerned that society equates gay sexuality with guilt (I agree with this and think it is a shame), why, oh why, are we trying to make someone feel guilty for choosing to be celibate??   Make no mistake – the mocking comments that I’ve read here are trying to do just that!
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: keyite on March 26, 2007, 07:16:26 am
I find it funny that in other posts, there are people who castigate others for not putting more weight on scientific studies than on anecdotes, yet here someone is being attacked for asking a question stemming from something read in a scientific journal.

The irony wasn't lost on me either...
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 26, 2007, 01:04:59 pm
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)


My only beef was in tone taken from the original poster toward myself and other posters here.  I fully appreciate that this is something that is originating form a scientific journal- not just from tales others are telling.

As for the KS / kissing relationship, I fully intend to ask my doctor more about that on my next visit.  Not a snowflake's chance in Hades that I'm ever gonna give up smooching, though.  I'd rather die...plain and simple.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: milker on March 26, 2007, 01:09:18 pm
Not a snowflake's chance in Hades that I'm ever gonna give up smooching, though.  I'd rather die...plain and simple.

 :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: keyite on March 26, 2007, 01:20:10 pm
My only beef was in tone taken from the original poster toward myself and other posters here. 

Sure. Entirely unprovoked it was too.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: ACinKC on March 26, 2007, 01:25:30 pm
(http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/PHD/PHD593/200122842-001.jpg)

I love this show!
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 26, 2007, 01:33:36 pm
Sure. Entirely unprovoked it was too.

Yes, it was.  Thank you for getting my back on that one!
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Andy Velez on March 26, 2007, 02:11:31 pm
OK. Now that attention seems to have switched over from the Oral Risk thread to here, let me again offer a cautioning word about snipping and sniping here.

There's room for a difference of opinions, choices and experiences without becoming proud and haughty (P&H) about it. P&H always pretty much inevitably leads to flaming.

So simmer down, please.   

AC, you're hilarious. And please don't bogart the popcorn. 
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: David_CA on March 26, 2007, 04:25:51 pm
Kissing is only dangerous if you are carrying a gun.

Not quite.  When I was 13 at summer camp, I had to French kiss this girl (imagine that!) in a game of Truth or Dare.  I got my lip caught on her braces.  It hurt like a bitch.  Besides that, people thought we were kissing for longer than the required 10 seconds when, in actuality, I was trying to unhook my lip. 

David
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 26, 2007, 04:29:18 pm
Not quite.  When I was 13 at summer camp, I had to French kiss this girl (imagine that!) in a game of Truth or Dare.  I got my lip caught on her braces.  It hurt like a bitch.  Besides that, people thought we were kissing for longer than the required 10 seconds when, in actuality, I was trying to unhook my lip. 

David

See there!  Oral transmission risks !!!
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Matty the Damned on March 26, 2007, 04:38:01 pm
The irony wasn't lost on me either...

Actually, that's not ironic.

MtD
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: David_CA on March 26, 2007, 04:43:53 pm
About KS... how common is this today?  I haven't heard of this, except in a few cases, much in years.

As to giving up kissing, well, we can always use dental dams... and condoms for blow jobs, too. 
R I G H T!
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 26, 2007, 04:46:15 pm
Is this the future of intimacy and sex?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: racingmind on March 26, 2007, 04:48:03 pm
I really need to stop coming on here......it's a breeding ground for hypochondriacs.  
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: milker on March 26, 2007, 04:54:58 pm
Those last 2 posts made me spill my drink AGAIN!  :o :o :o

Milker.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: scotttt on March 26, 2007, 04:58:53 pm
"About KS... how common is this today?  I haven't heard of this, except in a few cases, much in years. "

It is my understanding that KS cases among gay men are on the rise .  I have been told this by a couple health care workers recently. 
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Val on March 26, 2007, 05:19:15 pm
Is this the future of intimacy and sex?

He/she looks like Michael Jackson!  ;D ::)

Val
___
___
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Central79 on March 26, 2007, 07:14:36 pm
There's room for a difference of opinions, choices and experiences without becoming proud and haughty (P&H) about it. P&H always pretty much inevitably leads to flaming.

I feel disadvantaged - as a Brit, I would please like a P+H handicap?

I find the different approaches people take to risk pretty fascinating. You've got to look at the chances of it happening, the consequences of it happening and how much you want to persue the behaviour that involves the risk. I like cycling my bike in central London without a helmet. Although the risk of being run over is small, the consequences could be severe - but I really love the wind in my hair... (think girls bike. Big basket. Tampon ad).

Looking on the net, the prevalance of HHV8 even in HIV+ homos is only 29%. For poz women it's only 6%. For poz hetro men it's 13%. So it's obviously not all that transmissable by kissing (or anything else), otherwise we'd all have it.

Risk factors for human herpesvirus 8 seropositivity in the AIDS Cancer Cohort Study.
J Clin Virol. 2006 Apr;35(4):442-9. Epub 2006 Jan 18.


Now let's look at the consequences. You're HIV positive, and you've got HHV8 - the only thing that's going to protect you is a decent CD4 count. Okay, some people get KS with a CD4 of 600 but this is not usual. HAART in itself stops KS in HIV+ people. Like it did for Edfu.

And if it doesn't there's radiotherapy and chemo, which are both pretty good in this disease. It's not nice to go through, but the chances of cure are high. The other thing is that the incidence of KS in people with HIV-1 and HHV8 is about 3.1 cases per 100 years of life. There's a small subgroup of patients at much higher (x10) risk of developing KS, which pulls the average up. But there's a case for screening these people, and intensively managing them.

And if you really, really want to avoid it (you know me, seriously risk-averse!) you have to stop kissing people, which is one of those fundamental human experiences, and a big part of life and intimacy. There's a lot more evidence to suggest it's more readily spread by receptive anal sex. Another good reason to wear condoms even between pozzies.

So I think the risk is small, the consequences manageable, and the behaviour I have to give up impossible to stop doing. After all, we're talking a bit more than the wind through my hair here ;).

M.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 26, 2007, 08:13:36 pm
While not addressing kissing and KS specifically, this thread does make me want to remind forum folks that RevMC's partner, Louie, has had a rather significant battle with KS in recent months.

I don't know...it just seemed to bear mentioning. 
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: edfu on March 26, 2007, 08:16:29 pm
I'm grateful to Moffie, bocker, and keyite for coming to my defense.  I'm especially overwhelmed by the exceptional kindness and thoughtfulness of Moffie's ever-wise words.  And thanks to AC for the popcorn!

It's simply incorrect to state, as Bucko does, that I claimed "that kissing leads to KS."  I reported and repeated the findings of a peer-reviewed scientific article, to which I linked, that appeared in the prestigious "New England Journal of Medicine"--an article I thought needed more publicity than it had ever received.  The scientists in that article used the words "potential" and "may"; I used the words "highly likely," "may," and "can result."  I should not have said "highly"; "likely" would have been sufficient.  However, "can result" does not = "does result" in my opinion.   For the second time I must also point out the deliberate question mark in my topic title.  Nowhere did I state that anyone must or should stop kissing.  In hindsight, perhaps I should just have presented the article and, like Mike Meyers in an old "Saturday Night Live" skit, said, "Discuss amongst yourselves."  

I still believe the cause of much of the resultant controversy lies in what I previously referred to as the AIDS generation gap.  That is, I am postulating that there is a significant difference in thinking about AIDS--and all the ramifications thereof-- between the generation that was sexually active before 1981 and the generation that became sexually active after 1981.   This gap, however, is actually subsumed under an even larger gap, which I have explored elsewhere and find immensely interesting:  For the first time in history there is an age-defined generation gap in the gay population as a whole that affects all gay issues.  I refer to those who were sexually active pre-Stonewall 1969 and the advent of gay liberation and those who came of age sexually post-1969.  This, however, is a huge subject better covered, perhaps, in the Off Topic forum.  I will only say here that a very large number of those sexually active pre-1969 are no longer with us, for the obvious reasons of natural old age and, of course, AIDS.

Bucko also seems to believe that I am advocating a "thesis of abstinence," which is also untrue.  I revealed my own case history because I felt it became relevant to the discussion as it developed.  I never encouraged anyone to go and do likewise.  The fact that I developed KS at least 19 years after my infection with HIV and HHV-8 is an important fact.  The researchers at the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center certainly felt so.  I have admitted that my road to celibacy was propelled by deep psychological problems and that, to many, it does indeed appear "loony."  I don't understand how any of this can be interpreted as advocacy.  

The rate of KS has indeed declined greatly in recent years, and most doctors and scientists attribute this to HAART, which can even, by itself, put KS into remission and cause the lesions of KS to disappear completely over a period of several years, as has happened in my case.   The connection between HIV and KS can be stated in its simplest form as:  One of the proteins of HIV activates dormant HHV-8, which causes the KS; keep the HIV low, and--in most cases but NOT all, for reasons yet unknown--the HHV-8 causes no symptoms.  

More research on KS is not done for all of the usual reasons, most of which I attribute to homophobia.  Politics, shortage of funds, a wretched medical system, also contribute.  It's the same reason NO research is done on anal microbicides while research on vaginal microbicides creeps along, not nearly fast enough.  It's the same reason no research was done with gay men and human papilloma virus (HPV) and anal cancer, whereas Gardisil has been approved as  a vaccine for HPV and cervical cancer.  You cannot go to your doctor and ask to be tested for HHV-8, because no laboratories perform the test except for specialized laboratories in research settings.  

What is most disturbing to me personally in this thread is Bucko's boast in posting #53 (and what can be found in the essays on the blog he cohosts) that he engages in the "maximum exchange of body fluids."  He has perhaps unwittingly cut to the core of the discussion I hoped to invite, because the "maximum exchange of body fluids" is what causes HIV infection.  The very essence of HIV prevention is the MINIMIZING of the exchange of body fluids. What has been determined and discussed in the past and still needs discussing today are questions like:  Which fluids?  How?  By what mechanism or method?  When?  How often, or always?  And while HHV-8 does not cause HIV infection, it is a serious potential consequence.  Thanks for discussing amongst yourselves.    
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: scotttt on March 26, 2007, 08:36:17 pm
I think we need to clarify that the behaviors Brent/Bucko engages in goes on between consenting HIV positive individuals.  He is an avid serosorter.  I don't think that is clear from the comments regarding his sexual activity as asserted by Edfu. 

That said I do think the information presented by Edfu is very interesting.  I have no objection to such information being disseminated and I think that for the most part we have all shared our opinions in a mature and kind manner.  I think that we might feel a little over whealmed when it is suggested that kissing poses a serious health risk.  It isn't that we are stating that the information is not correct,  we just sometimes grow weary sometimes, that's all.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 26, 2007, 09:02:33 pm
The biggest thing this thread has made me think about isn't saliva or KS, it's what I would perhaps call HIV Trauma.  The psychological impact of witnessing such a high level of death, and how differently people can respond to such an experience. 
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Matty the Damned on March 26, 2007, 09:59:37 pm
He has perhaps unwittingly cut to the core of the discussion I hoped to invite, because the "maximum exchange of body fluids" is what causes HIV infection.  The very essence of HIV prevention is the MINIMIZING of the exchange of body fluids.

Bucko is an exclusive sero-sorter. HIV transmission within the context of his own sexual practice is not an issue for him.

MtD
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: bear60 on March 27, 2007, 09:20:24 am
Quote Tim..."The biggest thing this thread has made me think about isn't saliva or KS, it's what I would perhaps call HIV Trauma.  The psychological impact of witnessing such a high level of death, and how differently people can respond to such an experience.  "
...........................
Thats good Tim. Some people never recover from the shock and trauma of finding out they are HIV positive and watching hundreds of people die. I have been listening to NPR which has had a couple of programs about the psychological problems faced by military combatants....you know...the Post Traumatic Shock Syndrone.....and it sounds a whole lot like what some people here are dealing with.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: mjmel on March 27, 2007, 10:29:37 am
Nice post, AtomicA. On that particular sentence, I would say that it's good to have researchers discover those kind of things. But I would then say that it's bad to look at all medical publications and make a general statement from them. Those were from 2000, it's been 7 years already, and I've done some research, I found a few other documents about this since 2000, but nothing alarming.

So I respect edfu for his warning to the community, because we are weakened by the HIV virus and this is something to take into consideration. However, if I was to read all medical publications that are related to human contact and take them for granted I'd just start digging my grave right now, seriously.

Same thing goes with "breakthrough discoveries", step back, relax, read the fine print, wait for the studies, the results. When I see studies that are "extremely promising" and were done with 7 men, 4 on placebo, no women but 120 mice, I can only frown at how this study is being conducted and how serious it is.

Milker.

This is just the most FAVORED post of this thread, IMHO.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Val on March 27, 2007, 04:26:23 pm
While I do understand Edfu's laudable gesture, position and intentions when posting his article, I also discern over and above  Bucko's rage perfectly well and understand his overall disappointment with this disease (and its  consequences) we all deal with on a daily basis.
Let me try to concentrate and explain how I feel about Bucko's posture throughout this thread.

It seems to me that Bucko  feels more or less the way  I do regarding this issue, in that we are angry and disheartened.  We are beside ourselves and distraught with grief, for just when we thought that it was fine again to have something close to normal sex, we are reminded that one of the most basic, simple displays of love and intimacy between two men can be very dangerous.   And the question that comes to mind again is:  "How high a price do we have to pay for this illness?"  The whole thing, in fact, can be very discouraging!  And shattering!

Note that I used  the word  "reminded"  on purpose, for I do recall having read something similar a long time ago.  And now that I come to think of it, I realize that  unconciously I did refrain from kissing some times --- not always, though.   In addition, I am also convinced that Bucko must have read some article in the past about the subject being discussed, and may just have forgotten!     Because he gives me the impression of being a very cosmopolitan kind of guy!

Besides, after all these years of holding back  our innermost carnal passions and burning  sexual appetite one way or the other;   and, finally, with the undeniable advances Science made throughout these 25 years, one would hope that it was fine to kiss (again!) without having to worry about KS!  Apparently not. 

So, it is my guess that Bucko really was more disappointed than anything else (just like me, perhaps?), and felt  the  urge to let it out  here.  Now, I don't read blogs (with one exception:  Ann's blog),  so it would be foolish for me to comment on what he writes.   I understand from several of his posts, though, that he practices sero-sorting.  That, of course, is his choice and should be respected.

Val
___
___
P.S.I'm still trying to come to terms on how to interpret Edfu's article, and the action needed on my part.  Needless to say, I am also very frustrated.


Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Bucko on March 27, 2007, 06:21:08 pm
I need to get something to eat before I respond to this thread, but willl be on tonight.
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: Bucko on March 28, 2007, 02:46:54 pm


It's simply incorrect to state, as Bucko does, that I claimed "that kissing leads to KS."  I reported and repeated the findings of a peer-reviewed scientific article, to which I linked, that appeared in the prestigious "New England Journal of Medicine"--an article I thought needed more publicity than it had ever received.  The scientists in that article used the words "potential" and "may"; I used the words "highly likely," "may," and "can result."  I should not have said "highly"; "likely" would have been sufficient.  However, "can result" does not = "does result" in my opinion.   For the second time I must also point out the deliberate question mark in my topic title.  Nowhere did I state that anyone must or should stop kissing.

I still believe the cause of much of the resultant controversy lies in what I previously referred to as the AIDS generation gap.  That is, I am postulating that there is a significant difference in thinking about AIDS--and all the ramifications thereof-- between the generation that was sexually active before 1981 and the generation that became sexually active after 1981.   

Bucko also seems to believe that I am advocating a "thesis of abstinence," which is also untrue.  I revealed my own case history because I felt it became relevant to the discussion as it developed.  I never encouraged anyone to go and do likewise. 



What is most disturbing to me personally in this thread is Bucko's boast in posting #53 (and what can be found in the essays on the blog he cohosts) that he engages in the "maximum exchange of body fluids."  He has perhaps unwittingly cut to the core of the discussion I hoped to invite, because the "maximum exchange of body fluids" is what causes HIV infection.  The very essence of HIV prevention is the MINIMIZING of the exchange of body fluids. What has been determined and discussed in the past and still needs discussing today are questions like:  Which fluids?  How?  By what mechanism or method?  When?  How often, or always?  And while HHV-8 does not cause HIV infection, it is a serious potential consequence.  Thanks for discussing amongst yourselves.   

While I do understand Edfu's laudable gesture, position and intentions when posting his article, I also discern over and above  Bucko's rage perfectly well and understand his overall disappointment with this disease (and its  consequences) we all deal with on a daily basis.
Let me try to concentrate and explain how I feel about Bucko's posture throughout this thread.

It seems to me that Bucko  feels more or less the way  I do regarding this issue, in that we are angry and disheartened.  We are beside ourselves and distraught with grief, for just when we thought that it was fine again to have something close to normal sex, we are reminded that one of the most basic, simple displays of love and intimacy between two men can be very dangerous.   And the question that comes to mind again is:  "How high a price do we have to pay for this illness?"  The whole thing, in fact, can be very discouraging!  And shattering!

Note that I used  the word  "reminded"  on purpose, for I do recall having read something similar a long time ago.  And now that I come to think of it, I realize that  unconciously I did refrain from kissing some times --- not always, though.   In addition, I am also convinced that Bucko must have read some article in the past about the subject being discussed, and may just have forgotten!     Because he gives me the impression of being a very cosmopolitan kind of guy!

Besides, after all these years of holding back  our innermost carnal passions and burning  sexual appetite one way or the other;   and, finally, with the undeniable advances Science made throughout these 25 years, one would hope that it was fine to kiss (again!) without having to worry about KS!  Apparently not. 

So, it is my guess that Bucko really was more disappointed than anything else (just like me, perhaps?), and felt  the  urge to let it out  here.  Now, I don't read blogs (with one exception:  Ann's blog),  so it would be foolish for me to comment on what he writes.   I understand from several of his posts, though, that he practices sero-sorting.  That, of course, is his choice and should be respected.

Val
___
___
P.S.I'm still trying to come to terms on how to interpret Edfu's article, and the action needed on my part.  Needless to say, I am also very frustrated.




What frustrates me most of all is people speculating on my thoughts and feelings when I am very clear about them. There is nothing opaque about me whatsoever. It's all there in black and white, but it does involve a bit of reading.

From the moment I joined AIDSmeds in the summer of 2005 I have been an advocate for the positive aspects of sex and the transformative effects reclaiming my libido from the ashcan of a nine-year long dysfunctional relationship has had on my psyche. While I don't necessarily recommend that everyone needs to explore the darker reaches of his/her own minds in the body fluids of others, I personally have found it immensely liberating.

Liberty, of course, has its price and its limits, even for me.

The limits of freedom for me are pretty simple. I only have sex with HIV+ people, and I choose to further limit the pool of potential candidates in other ways as well. I restrict myself to guys who feel the same way I do and who actively solicit unprotected sex. I restrict myself even further by selecting only those who attract me and whose preferences dovetail with my own. As I discovered last summer, that still leaves a vast field of possibilities.

The price of such freedom is high. I have contracted two UITs which were painful and debilitating. And in being frank about such things, I open myself up to criticism. My blog was vandalized repeatedly and a good friend was stalked by some crazy for having the temerity of supporting me. There are other rammifications in my personal life as well that I'm choosing not to disclose now, but they are serious.

But suggesting that I lack compassion for my various beaux is plain wrong. I devoted over 20,000 words describing how I came to fall in love with one of them and the pain this caused me.

Of course, in order to understand me you must know me. And in cyberspace knowing me involves reading what I write. It's not all heaving muscles and cavernous openings, you know. There is doubt and uncertainty, love and disillusion. It's all there. There's no need to subject my thought process or motovations to speculative analysis.

I stated in post #3 that I doubt if I'll reach the age of fifty-five. It was half in jest, but serious nonetheless. I never expected to reach thirty. I believed in the premonition of someone who said I'd die at thirty-eight right up until my thirty-ninth birthday. I made it though so much to get to forty-seven, and sometimes doubt my strength and determination to continue further. But the spirit which animates me pushes me forward despite chronic pain and an occasionally crippling depression.

And this spirit demands its satisfaction in things corporeal, which is why it manifested itself here in the first place. To deny it would be to me something of a cardinal sin. If kissing devils my destiny and leaves me dead before my time, so be it.

Brent
(Who'd have it no other way)
Title: Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
Post by: thunter34 on March 28, 2007, 03:08:41 pm
Word.



(My trivial yet thoroughly inspired response to the post above.)