POZ Community Forums
Off Topic Forums => Forums Gatherings => Topic started by: Razorbill on December 14, 2006, 06:05:51 am
-
Dear Fellow Members,
I protest and object exceedingly to this blind process. The gathering needs to be in August - there are several of us unable to attend because of school who would like to. The voting is flawed becase there was no option for "either month". A suggestion was made about this and ignored. The vote on time is so close I hardly see why I and others should be excluded based on 3 votes. The committee needs to steer this in another direction. It wouldn't hurt anyone to be more inclusive. Have the COWS met and already steered this? I have been rather piqued that David's and my polite posts and requests have fallen on so many deaf ears - and I thank those who noted conflicts and said either month was OK.
Ernie
-
I agree with Ernie's post. Although I found out too late to about AMG '06 too late to vote, August seemed to have worked for many folks. Maybe this is how it was done for '06; I'm really not sure. If so, we were fortunate to have a location with plenty of lodging, public transportation, and an airport nearby.
The other reservation I have, although several very generous offers of transportation assistance have been made, is the practicality of the location. I'd hate to have airline delays cause somebody to waste a trip to the airport 2 hours away or to interrupt whatever's going on, stop what their doing, and go drop me off at the airport when it's time to leave.
It's like voting on a candidate without really knowing their stand on things.
Perhaps, maybe for AMG '08, an INITIAL vote to narrow down to say, five locations, would work. Then, those five can be researched, prices gathered, transportation logistics, etc and more of a package presented. This is why we (D & I) didn't vote on the Russian River; even with the links and info folks kindly posted, I didn't get the feeling that 40+ (who knows how many, really) can be housed reasonably in one establishment with easy transportation.
This is not a criticism of the organizers; I think anybody who can organize anything like this has a real talent, but more intended to be suggestions to make the process easier, more informed, etc. One thing we loved about Montreal was how EASY everthing was... from the airport, to taxi service and the metro, to the location of the hotel. This allowed us to enjoy what we were there for... meeting and getting to know other members.
David
-
Dear Fellow Members,
I protest and object exceedingly to this blind process. The gathering needs to be in August - there are several of us unable to attend because of school who would like to. The voting is flawed becase there was no option for "either month". A suggestion was made about this and ignored. The vote on time is so close I hardly see why I and others should be excluded based on 3 votes. The committee needs to steer this in another direction. It wouldn't hurt anyone to be more inclusive. Have the COWS met and already steered this? I have been rather piqued that David's and my polite posts and requests have fallen on so many deaf ears - and I thank those who noted conflicts and said either month was OK.
Ernie
Ernie:
I don't see the unfairness on how the voting was handled. I read the comments by both you and David about not being able to attend in September. It distressed me immensely that was the case. Unfortunately I couldn't change my vote to either month. Not because I didn't desire to be more "inclusive" (and frankly it hurts me a lot that you would even write something like that. I mean a lot.), but because just as you have conflicts with September, I had conflicts with August.
There will never be a site or date that will work for everyone. That's the problem, someone is simply going to be unhappy with the results. But not because there was a conspiracy of other members, not because members don't want to be inclusive, not because the process was unfair, simply because that's the reality.
(Edit to add: there were 4 members of COWS who actually voted, 3 voted September, 1 voted either month we hardly controlled anything)
I'm sorry you feel so hurt I wish I could think of some suggestion to offer that would change that.
With respect and sadness,
RAB
-
Rocky,
While not feeling that it was quite as 'unfair' as Ernie, I'd say that it was perhaps a bit flawed, and I don't mean that as a criticism. Hell, I'd prefer October for no other reason than it's a nice dry month with wonderful weather (at least hear in the Southeast). I think what Ernie was referring to is that people were given a choice of August or September. They had to choose one or the other. Flip a coin to decide if it doesn't matter which month, or have a selection of "either month is fine with me", which is what D and I would choose if he wasn't in school. As an example, I might prefer to eat dinner at 6:30, but if you don't get off work 'til 7:00, I'd wait, 'cause it really doesn't matter.
Being that there are approximately four weeks in each of the months of August and September, isn't it going to be just as much of an issue whether it starts early, mid, or late September or even early, mid, or late August? Perhaps that could alleviate some conflicts as well.
I realize that many people DID go back and modify their choices to reflect the fact that the date didn't really matter to them, either, which I think is very generous and considerate of them. How were the votes that said it didn't matter tallied?
My reservations about lack of preliminary research into logistics of lodging, transportation, etc still stand. If we had decided on Vegas, for example, I'd be more than happy to research just about every decent hotel, pluses and minuses of each, packages with airlines, shows, transportation, etc only because I'm so familiar with it (we've been five times).
I hope this didn't sound too bitchy, but I just wanted to clarify my points (and hopefully not read anything into Ernies's post) without criticizing anybody. I'm sure it was just an oversight, that's all. It's something to learn from and incorporate into AMG '08. And Rocky, you did a great job organizing AMG '06, and I know you have a different perspecitive of the whole thing (and what a pain in the butt it can be sometimes)!
David
-
David's concerns about transportation are well-founded. Public transport from SFO or Oakland airport to Guerneville is possible, but it's not easy. It involves getting to downtown San Francisco on BART, then a Golden Gate Transit bus to Santa Rosa (2 hrs), and then a Sonoma County Transit bus for the 20-mile trip from Santa Rosa to Guerneville (1 hr). On weekends, buses between Santa Rosa and Guerneville run just four times a day in each direction.
Once you're at the Russian River, unless you have access to a car, it is simply not possible to enjoy all the wonderful nearby attractions, like the Sonoma coastline, the wine country, Armstrong Redwood Park, or a daytrip to San Francisco. You could have a nice relaxing four-day stay just hanging around Guerneville, but if I were traveling a fair distance to a gathering like this, I would want to be able to see and experience more than the immediate Guerneville area.
On Travelocity, a one-week compact car rental from Oakland or SFO during the second week of September is around $225 (tax included).
I'm sorry I didn't bring up these issues up early on in the decision-making process.
Allan
-
With all due respect, we don't feel that the manner by which the votes were tallied was either unfair or non-inclusive.
As you will remember, each first place month was given a weighted value of 2, each second place month was given a weighted value of 1. Several members (8 to be exact including the two co-coordinators) indicated that it made no difference which month was selected. In this case each month was given a weighted value of 1. Likewise, if only one month was indicated , that month was given a weighted value of 2.
If anyone would like a copy of the Excel spreadsheet that was used to tally the votes please send the AMG Coordinator a PM with your email address and a copy of the spreadsheet will happily be furnished.
Ric and Anne,
Co-Coordinators
-
I don't think the manner in which the votes were tallied was unfair. I'm not sure about the weighting of 1st vs 2nd choice instead of a count of which month people wanted, but I'm not involved in the calculation. I also realize that many people went back and changed their votes to either. If 1st choices were counted for August and September with a value of 1, the number of those who didn't care would either make the winning month August or September, depending on how they were split. Put another way, August had 13 first choice votes, September had 16, and either had 8 (I assume I counted all those correctly). So, in raw numbers 16 vs 13 with 8 to actually decide.
The choice of 'either is fine' SHOULD have been made earlier. I realize that it's too late to do anything about it now. If certain folks want to see others who've chosen a month, they'll naturally choose the same month, when it really may not matter which time they go. I do appreciate those that did offer either month, and I'd certainly do the same if I was in a similar situation.
Again, if anything, I think this was perhaps an oversight, not anything intentional. Maybe this is how it was done the last two times. I really don't know. Just realize our frustration is based on our anticipation of attending and disappointment at not being able to attend, not to make an issue with how something was calculated.
David
-
I've just got one last (hopefully) suggestion about this. Let's find out a bit more info and details about accommodations, travel logistics, and add the third choice of "either month is ok" or better yet, make the choices of which month can you NOT attend. Then, we can have a re-vote. It won't take long to do; we've already had several locals agree with the transportation issues. I'll help research any aspect of this if it'll make a difference. I just think a lot of folks could benefit from more details.
David
-
hmm, my vote for Russian River was up there, but that was without knowing it would take so long to get to it. The flights will be long and uncomfortable (6'4"), the waiting and drive will be tolerable, but not desired! Either way, I'm looking forward to being there, wherever it is!
I would have thought those who said either month, wouldn't have been tallied, so as not to skew the results.
I'm ok with a look into the lodging and trans, and if needed, a revote. But a warning 'please go to AMGatherings and vote' should be posted atop every forum.
If I don't know the dates of the trip by the end of February, I most likely will not be able to attend as I have to put in a year ahead for vacation scheduling.
-
This was a blind by the numbers process. It is not inclusive. Get over the hurt. Why have people involved if no one's taking anything into consideration except numbers? Preferences do not equate to need. It's skewed and it can be spun any prefered way. I have no doubt the excel spreadsheet was most accurate. I am constrained to point out that excel spread sheets don't think. Apparently something they have in common with committees that don't need to deliberate. And the "too late to do anything now comment" is a sign of lack of involvement.
PS - This is about a process and a committee, not individuals.
PPS - I know I'm screwed. C'est la vie.
-
I just want to say #1 I did not vote.
I thought the Russian River was a good idea.
Did I get upset that I couldn't go to Montreal with the others last year? HRMMM. NO.
Is it going to be in Montreal every year? HRM... UH... NO.
Will I be able to go every year? MMM Probably not.
Will EVERYONE be happy with the decision every year? hell no.
Let me say that transporation is not necessarily an issue. If everyone could get themselves to San Francisco, there are ways to work out the transportation issues. I have an idea that would be of little to NO cost to people arriving at the airport. Or the people wanting to take bart. If we had a van or two, to pick up people at a certain meeting time, in the city, and in the Russian River. People could be responsible to get themselves to the pick up points at the specified times. Of course this wouldn't work, because someone would inevitably miss the pick up point, and the responsibility would then become someone else's.
The time of the year is essential to getting a cheap rate in the russian river in order to make it affordable and accessible to everyone, rather than just a few with deep pockets. Everyone seems to be taking this all so personally.
I've been at this board for two years. I have missed 2 events because I couldn't go, or couldn't afford it. Was it the fault of those who chose the date? no?
It's sad that people who are unwilling to put into the event are complaining because they aren't getting what they want. If you want change, be it.
Plan a separate event at the time that is convenient for you, in your own back yard. Then you may truly understand how difficult it is to please everyone all the time.
Jesus, people.
-joseph
-
Joseph,
Having attended Montreal and seeing 40 other people there shows it can be done. Whose going to rent the van, with the issue of liability, fuel, and the pain in the ass of having to pick people up from two different airports and dropping them off at the same two airports? That's something I'd never ask somebody to do. My point about transportation, which has been echoed by a couple others, is that this location, like many rural areas, doesn't have a close airport or good public transportation.
The ease of the Montreal trip (and I assume Toronto) was one of the things that made it so nice; we could walk everywhere, take a cab, or use the metro. It allowed us to enjoy time together instead of ferrying people to the airport and back. Maybe this wasn't important to a lot of attendees, but it was to my hubby and I.
David
-
Joseph,
Having attended Montreal and seeing 40 other people there shows it can be done. Whose going to rent the van, with the issue of liability, fuel, and the pain in the ass of having to pick people up from two different airports and dropping them off at the same two airports? That's something I'd never ask somebody to do. My point about transportation, which has been echoed by a couple others, is that this location, like many rural areas, doesn't have a close airport or good public transportation.
The ease of the Montreal trip (and I assume Toronto) was one of the things that made it so nice; we could walk everywhere, take a cab, or use the metro. It allowed us to enjoy time together instead of ferrying people to the airport and back. Maybe this wasn't important to a lot of attendees, but it was to my hubby and I.
David
Maybe instead of sitting around and bitching about why you can't attend, you instead, trust in the people taking the time to put it together and just trust that it will be okay. and of the 40 people who went to Montreal, tell me, David, how many couldn't go? Can you honestly say that EVERYONE was happy? I think not. You're speaking from your own perspective which unfortunately, doesn't include EVERYONE. So, perhaps you should sit back and enjoy the journey, with those who are prepared to plan it... OR plan the event yourself. Mind you, you may wish to ask the same questions of yourself that you're asking everyone else.
If you're really that intent on picking apart the event and complaining about it before it has even been put together for you, you're probably not goign to have a good time anyway. Maybe it's best that you can't come.
Sorry, but I'm tired of the bitching and the naysaying.
-joseph
-
Joseph,
I've given suggestions as to Vegas, the only place I know about that was on the list and welcomed anybody to PM me for other info on it. I offered to research rates, packages, etc on this thread. I offered a solution for having a third choice of 'it doesn't matter' back when those of us who voted, and want to attend, were voting. I never recommended Vegas, but I'd give any info I could to help those who were considering it. I'd say I have put forth some effort. I've asked the same, and many more, questions as soon as I noticed the voting had started PRIOR to the voting ending. Being that I'm not on a planning committee, what else should I have done to assist?
The majority of folks had a good time in Montreal. There were isolated incidences that were unrelated to the wonderful job (Rocky, mostly) did, along with everybody else who helped. I'll trust that it'll be ok, but it won't really matter 'cause we can't attend. And, like I said, there were several aspects of EACH location that would be pertinent to know prior to voting.
Being that you didn't meet me in Montreal, I'd be a bit more hesitant to say I'd be best not attending. I think those that did meet me can say that I was pleasant with NO bitches about any aspect of the planning or the actual experience.
I may be taking it sorta personally because I'm really disappointed we can't go, thus my even adding to this thread. If I was a person who had no intention of going, or who didn't vote, I doubt I'd even read enough of it to become "...tired of the bitching and the naysaying."
D
-
I may be taking it sorta personally because I'm really disappointed we can't go, thus my even adding to this thread. If I was a person who had no intention of going, or who didn't vote, I doubt I'd even read enough of it to become "...tired of the bitching and the naysaying."
D
Fair enough.
Just be mindful that perhaps you're not ALWAYS of the majority.
What I know is that someone attending an event, if they believe they won't have a good time, simply will not.
I would LOVE to see you. HELL, I LOVE VEGAS. We're just trying to keep this on the cheap. And there is/was talk of getting Big Pharma involved and funding things like transportation between the city and the Russian River. What you're not taking into account is that as a state, California has a great many resources avialable to it. And there are several people willing to help plan the event. THAT is what COWS was all about. The fact that WE were becoming involved and pooling our resources and connections together to make it be as cheap as possible to attendees. Now, mind you, there is a bit of time involved with transport. But I see that as time to get to know someoene that you might not have gotten the opportunity to meet because of the distractions.
One of the reasons we wanted to do the russian river is because there are a lot of options there, and the opportunity for people to attend the event during the week, and supplement their travels on the weekend in the city. As I recall people were bitching because it they felt that the events in the past were/were not intimate enough.
It's really all a matter of perspective, and I'm sorry you cannot seem to see the magic in the hat full of stars.
-joseph
-
A link on Guerneville...
www.Guerneville-online.com (http://www.Guerneville-online.com). I would avoid the New Dynamic as it is a dump, Santa Nella House is too small and too far away. Ridenhour House is too far from anything but they are a pioneer family.
I recommend www.dawnranch.com (http://www.dawnranch.com) because it is pleasant cabins in the Redwoods, on the river and close to everything. www.ferngrove.com (http://www.ferngrove.com) is also nice but smaller and not directly on the river. www.westsonomainn.com (http://www.westsonomainn.com) is also nice and located near everything.
The Inn at the Willows, I don't know if they have a web page but they are a historic Inn on the river with rooms, and a camp ground on the premises. There is a rental place across the street where camping equipment can be rented.
The vacation rental home companies usually require a 5 day minimum stay during season but have several private homes located close to each other and cost effective.
The demand for rooms at the resorts is usually greater than the available lodging spaces during season. Decisions and reservations should be made as soon as possible. Hope this helps. Have the best day
Michael
-
David and D and Ernie.
Sorry you're upset. It's damned it you do and damned if you don't. Two years ago we had our 1st gathering in Sept. Last year we had it in August. Each time we put it to a vote, just like this time. First time more people picked Sept and last time Aug came in for the first choice.
This is only our 3rd time of doing this and none of us is a professional. At least I don't think any of us are event planners. We do what we can the best we can. I thought it was rather clear about the location being rural. Sure we've got some transportation logistics to figure out but we will come up with something. We don't know where were staying or the rates either. But that was also the case for Toronto and Montreal. First we chose the locations then we found accomodations. Maybe we're doing it backwards. I don't know. Maybe we should start the 2008 Gathering now. Come up with places and hotels and rates for each possible location then when we vote we will be voting for the whole package and not just the place.
By the way, the only thing the COWS promoted was a location in the west. We really didn't care about the month. The reason we got together was because we thought there would be competition with other locations but that turned out not to be the case.
And, like Rocky, August is not good for me. To be able to go the Gathering and enjoy myself like I did in Montreal, I would have to go in September. Please don't make me feel selfish in voting the way I did. Ok. Maybe more people can go in August so should I give up what I want for the good of the whole? Sometimes that might be the way to go, but in this case I need the Gathering.
I understand you might not be able to go but it sure would be nice if you can steer all those positive vibes of yours in our direction. Together we can make this Gathering and all those to follow something worth bragging about.
robert
-
Actually, Robert, I think we'll plan on paying a visit to some friends from NC who just recently moved back to San Francisco next August. There seem to be quite a few members in that area, so maybe we'll get the opportunity to meet some of them. My point & request was never for anybody to give up their opportunity to go by changing the month they selected, but if a month was chosen solely for convenience, then to allow for flexibility by choosing 'either month', which wasn't an option (what I consider the only real flaw). I'd certainly not expect you, or anybody else, who can only attend in Sept. to change their vote. You guys definitely won't get any negative vibes from me and I'm sure I can send a few positive ones your way, too!
David
-
The airline prices are cheaper after Labor Day. Not to forget but we also had a little get together in Nashville in 2005 and with just 14 of our members that attend that was cool. If you can't make the trip in September think about having a southern gathering in the middle of the state. The Gathering we had in Nashville was short and sweet but at least we got to meet some of the members on aidsmeds. Besides most of us are on fixed bugets and its hard to take longer trips. It would be nice to pick a place in the center of the US and call it our aids meeting area.
-
I know this is going to sound completely bitchy, but oh well.
Ernie, I am pretty shocked at your response here. You, as a teacher, should know very well that any decision made is never going to please everyone.
Why, when those who chose to vote did, are you all of sudden being singled out and excluded? That's crap. People voted for the month they preferred. Regardless of leaving the "don't cares" out of the tally, or counting them with equal weighted value for both months, the results are the same. If the decision were to be made to move the date to August to accomodate you, who's to say that someone else wouldn't then be excluded. Where is the fairness in that situation?
I'm sorry that September doesn't work for you due to work, but in your being upset about the results you are being completely unfair to the planning coordinators.
Perhaps preferences do equate to need. It was not a requirement to vote AND state WHY you voted that way. There are various reasons why people voted the way they did.
Christ, we don't even know specifics where or when and already the bitching is starting about how unfair it all is.
I'm almost sick of AMG 07 already!!! >:(
-
LOL I knew this would be interesting. Ya know guys, unless you come out guns ablazing... anyway the thread seems to have sparked info more focused on the viability of the excel spreadsheet's decisions. A deeper examinination of the ideas would help everyone - esp those with mobility and transportation limitations. Might make it more inclusive at least for some ;) The excel spreadsheet in league with the Secret Order of COWS (prob Freemasons) will have some more tweaking to do. :-*
PS - I'm a Taurus, can ya tell?
-
I'm not thrilled that my Ernie and the Davids can't attend. I didn't get to spend much time with David and was actually looking forward to doing that this time around. I think this thread is positive in the sense that people are upset that they are unable to attend AMG 07. Better that than the trashing of AMG that was going on a few months ago.
I'm not sold on the idea of a "either month is fine," voting. It seems to interject ambiguity into the voting process. I also think a decision by the committee (to go for August) probably would have made someone (who can't attend in August) upset. So I don't think that would have been the best solution either. It's an unfortunate situation.
Cliff
(P.S.- Just to get this off my chest)....I wonder about the viability of RR. It seems too remote (though beautiful with lots of nature-loving stuff to do), the properties don't seem large enough to hold all of us in one place (considering the wider public will also be booking rooms), and it will require a bunch of rental cars (a sunk cost if you ask me). But the people have spoken and I accept that. I'm sure the west coast folks will step up to minimize these issues. My choices (San Fran or Las Vegas) would have had their drawbacks as well, so I suppose Robert is right in that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
-
.
-
Cliff, the idea of 'either month is fine' is actually creating flexibility, not ambiguity. If you asked me if I wanted to go in June or July, I wouldn't care, and would accept either date as decided by those who have reasons for choosing a particular month. I might prefer June, as it's cooler, but I'd rather have more people be able to attend... that sort of thing.
Iggy, from what I understand, a location is decided then it's researched. I don't have time to dedicate to being an organizer, but I'd certainly be willing to investigate air travel, ground transportation, lodging accommodations and rates, variety of restaurants (and price levels), and general information for '08. I'd particularly be willing to do this if I knew something about the area.
I also agree that it would be nice to have a little more info ahead of time, like I mentioned earlier. On the other hand, the last two AMG's were a success, judging by the percent of those with positive experiences. Of course, these were in big cities, with big city things like buses, subways, restaurants of all types everywhere, etc.
I hope that the AMG '07 is a success, but it seems like the location might be a bit better suited for a smaller group than the 40+ in Montreal, but who knows how many will actually attend. In some ways, a BIG AMG every two years makes sense, with smaller regional get-togethers in between, but I know most of us don't want to wait that long to see each other. I do have faith in the coordinators, but there are just a lot of unanswered questions. I'm sure it'll all work out, though.
David
-
Ernie/David(s):
Could you guys do a mini-AMG visit (like come for the weekend)? Some people, like Anne, didn't come for the entire trip but still was able to take advantage of the gathering. I would imagine the distance of the flight (east to west coast) plus the added time to Sonoma may make it not feasible, but just a thought.
-
Ernie/David(s):
Could you guys do a mini-AMG visit (like come for the weekend)? Some people, like Anne, didn't come for the entire trip but still was able to take advantage of the gathering. I would imagine the distance of the flight (east to west coast) plus the added time to Sonoma may make it not feasible, but just a thought.
That's an option, but with the time there vs expense, it would probably not be in the vacation budget, which is what AMG '06 funds came from. D and I haven't TOTALLY ruled out something happening to allow us to attend, but I'd still like to find out a bit more about the options in the RR area. We also have friends that just moved back to S.F. that we'd want to visit, too, so it would need to be for at least 4-5 days.
As an aside, Southwest seems to have some really decent rates for flights from NC to Oakland. Their website doesn't go past March or April, but I think it was something like $175 r/t. I've always had good luck with Southwest and have used them several times.
David
-
SWA from NC to Oakland, oh boy...I bet that flight goes something like....(NC to Dallas, Dallas to Pheonix, Pheonix to Las Vegas, Vegas to LA, LA to SF, SF to Oakland). With plenty of nuts to keep you satisfied. :-\
Regardless of where in RR AMG is held, I plan on spending some time in San Francisco (a couple of nights). I enjoy the city and I just can't see myself spending the entire time out in the country.
-
SWA from NC to Oakland, oh boy...I bet that flight goes something like....(NC to Dallas, Dallas to Pheonix, Pheonix to Las Vegas, Vegas to LA, LA to SF, SF to Oakland). With plenty of nuts to keep you satisfied. :-\
I know Oakland isn't Vegas, but the last time we went to Vegas from RDU was non-stop both ways and the time before was only one stop, but no plane changes. That's been a couple of years, so they could have changed, but I was impressed with how cheap and on time SWA was.
David