Is health care a right?

[bocker3]

So I say, yes... healthcare is a right, and yes, this obligates the government to pay for it.  Because right now, I'm seein' what our neighbors in the north have... and I'm thinking about hanging a "Welcome Canadians" sign up if they ever do invade. 

You may say it is a right and I may say that it should be right -- but that doesn't make it so.  Whether we like it or not, our Health care system is what it is -- now, I'm not saying we should try and change it, but it is what it is.
We can also say what we like about how other countries are glad they don't have our system -- but when they are really sick, how many world leaders and other powerful people come here to get the best care that money can buy (money, of course, being key in our system.)
Finally I will add, that we all have a hand in the problems of our Health Care System (including myself).  We Americans want the best healthcare available, with the best technologies, medicines, etc -- we want it without delay AND we want someone else to pay for it.  We would never stand for having to wait or ration care, that is why the Canadian or British model wouldn't work here.  Now, the "we" I speak of is obviously not the uninsured, the "we" are the majority of voters.  Americans are not known for their patience.
Don't misunderstand, I am very glad that I live in the US.  We aren't perfect, far from it, but I like my life here.  I've served in the military and fought in Desert Storm -- so I take my rights and privileges very seriously.  (Please don't take that to mean I agree with the current boneheaded foreign policy)

Mike

[Jeff64]

Your Grand Answer is "Shit Happens"

Oh my!   I pay $5,000 a year in property taxes, but I still feel everyone should be entitled to access to healthcare, not just inmates!

No need to get snippy, dear.

Who exactly is going to pay for this wild "UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE" ?

Would you like to pay twice your property tax? Three times?

Think about the realities instead of being a hero.

[Jeff64]

So we shouldn't provide health care to those in prison?  Just askin.

I pay property taxes, lots and lots of property tax.  I don't use the public school systems, nor will I ever.  I didn't use them growing up, for I was privately schooled.  I could therefore argue that if someone chooses to have a child, they should see to their educations out of their own pockets, and stop reaching into mine.  I don't, though, because I think a government subsidized education system is important to our society.

I also pay for my own health care (lots and lots of that, too, unfortunately).  But I think that, like education, universal access to health care is important.

Oh, and by the way, some people can't buy insurance, because insurance companies won't sell it to them.

If you work in the US at a company that offers insurance, you cannot be turned down.

FACT!

[Nico]

Universal coverage?  A wet dream.  Who will pay?  That is why US companies have gone to CDHP and HSA's.  If you do not know what these are, please IM me.

Yes taxes would go up for some, but I pay an annual tax of $1,500 to Grady in ATL and I do not use the facility.  I pay for the insured and I pay my own premiun of $3,000 plus an Flex acct of another $3.5K each year just for me.  Do the math.

The system is broken.

Rog

[AustinWesley]

Health care costs above a certain percentage of adjusted gross income have always been tax deductible.  Health care INSURANCE costs have not.

Bush is proposing making employer-provided health care benefits (ie Insurance) above a certain threshold count as taxable income.  Then use the funds from that to allow those who purchase private insurance plans to deduct the cost of those plans, up to a certain amount.

This opens the door for employers to stop, or at the very least drastically reduce, the degree to which they subsidize their employees health care.  A bad thing for the employees, to be sure, but probably good for the system overall, since people will start to see just how much health care actually costs, and hopefully, once their eyes have been opened, they will demand changes to the system as it currently stands.  Our current system can't continue as it is, for soon it will come crashing down under its own weight.  It is already showing signs of breaking.

As for the doctors and their compensation.  Well, doom and gloom was forecast when Medicare came up with the idea of DRGs many years ago, the same was done when managed care appeared.  Guess what?   Doctors learned  how to continue to make money with changes in the system.  In fact, most of them make more.  Though as a group they despise the paperwork that they must now endure to do so.  I am sure they will thrive under a universal healthcare system.

Whizzer, you make a good case.   Especially since we will have more old people than ever in the near future.    And they vote!  Maybe there is hope!

[bocker3]

As for the doctors and their compensation.  Well, doom and gloom was forecast when Medicare came up with the idea of DRGs many years ago, the same was done when managed care appeared.  Guess what?   Doctors learned  how to continue to make money with changes in the system.  In fact, most of them make more.  Though as a group they despise the paperwork that they must now endure to do so.  I am sure they will thrive under a universal healthcare system.

How do they make the money now? The old American way -- by becoming more "efficiient", i.e. spending less time with each patient, so that they can see more patients in a day. Not the recipe one would hope for.

[AustinWesley]

If you work in the US at a company that offers insurance, you cannot be turned down.

FACT!

Jeff, You are wrong.   Many companies don't offer insurance.   I'm not getting snippy, but if it meant everyone would have health insurance I'd gladly shell out $10,000 a year for property taxes.

I guess I'm not as greedy as others.

[aupointillimite]

If you work in the US at a company that offers insurance, you cannot be turned down.

FACT!

You're right.  But that's a big "if."

40 million uninsured... and 13% of our population isn't unemployed.  It's much less. 

A lot of people are working with no insurance offered by their employers. 

[northernguy]

My sister in law is from Canada.  She married my brother and moved to Washington.  Her sister lived in Canada.  They both had an abnormal pap smear.  Both had ovarian cancer.  Her sister died waiting to get all the tests before they could start any kind of treatment.  Cindy lived because she didn't have to wait 6 months for a MRI.
My brother died last month, and because of 9/11, she would have had to have been married to my brother for 5 years before she is granted full citizenship.  He died at the beginning of their 4th year of marriage.  She will cobra the insurance as long as she can afford to, travel from Canada to the US for her health care.  I can not say her sister would not of died if she was in the US, but it seems as if she would of had at least a fighting chance.  Universal Health Care is not the answer, I am not sure what the answer is, but dying while waiting is not an answer to me.
Cono

This is the kind of story the American right loves to throw at US citizens about "socialized" Canadian medicine.  While I don't doubt your tale, I can tell you from my experience it has not been true.

I can call my doc up and get in often the same day.  When my dad was diagnosed with lymphoma he was in the hospital in very short order for treatment.  In short, if it's deemed life-threatening you usually get the treatment very quickly.  Where there is some truth to the fear-mongering is the wait for elective surgery.  In short, if it not life-threatening you can face a wait.  If the Canadian system is so bad why is Canada's life expectancy higher than the US?  Rushing people off for expensive tests at the drop of a hat obviously isn't making Americans live longer.

There's one thing I never experienced in the Canadian medical system: a bill.  

Never.  Not for my GP or specialists, hospital visits, lab tests, x-rays etc.  Neither will I have any bills or  co-pays for my HIV meds.  So as someone with HIV, where would I rather be? Pretty easy choice.

[fearless]

America is one of the lowest tax countries in the world, but lower taxes don't mean better outcomes: http://progecon.wordpress.com/2006/12/06/taxes-and-outcomesnordic-vs-anglo-american/. The article shows that higher taxed countries appear to have better outcomes across a whole range of issues.

And,as Americans you pay more for your health care, but generally have worse outcomes than all other industrialised countries, paying nearly twice as much per capita as other industrialised countries - interestingly some 20-25% of your costs are consumed in the administration of your system. http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf.

Our system is by no means perfect, but I'm happy with my $18 co-pay to see a doctor, and $30 a script for my pills. We don't get rationed service like you assume. My doctor runs a private practice, I make a telephone call and make an appointment to see him, just like you. If I'm sick, I go to hospital, just like you.

[AustinWesley]

No more... but maybe it's a question of how the government chooses to spend its money.

How much does each cruise missle cost? How much money do we give to Israel?  How much money did it cost to land on the moon?

Aerodynamic golf balls notwithstanding... I think we could spend a bit more on domestic programs.

Hell, we might as well make Israel the 51st state.   I don't think any of the other 50 recieve that much federal funding.

[Jeff64]

You're right.  But that's a big "if."

40 million uninsured... and 13% of our population isn't unemployed.  It's much less. 

A lot of people are working with no insurance offered by their employers. 

Then it woud behoove them to get employment with those that do...once again, personal responsibility.
If they want socialism, go defect to Cuba.

Jeff

[whizzer]

So Jeff, you think everyone should work at a big company that offers health insurance?  Is that possible?  What about the small businesses that don't?  The self-employed?

What will you do if your company STOPS offering you that nice fat subsidized group insurance plan?  What if they all stop?  They only have to let you in on it if they offer a plan, but they DON"T have to offer a plan.  As a person with HIV, you will quickly find that your insurance purchase options are zero.

[Miss Philicia]

I love someone who screams "FACT!" and then turns around and accuses everyone of being snippy.

People never cease to amaze me on teh intranets.

[aupointillimite]

Then it woud behoove them to get employment with those that do...once again, personal responsibility.
If they want socialism, go defect to Cuba.

Jeff

You make it sound so easy.  But it's not.

And, you're right.. let's just put the clock back to the glory days of capitalism... the late 19th century!  No government interference in anything!

No free education!  No FDA!  No Department of Labor!

Let's get back to the good old days of rats in breakfast sausages, 12 hour workdays, and child labor! 
 

[xtremepms]

This is the kind of story the American right loves to throw at US citizens about "socialized" Canadian medicine.  While I don't doubt your tale, I can tell you from my experience it has not been true.

I can call my doc up and get in often the same day.  When my dad was diagnosed with lymphoma he was in the hospital in very short order for treatment.  In short, if it's deemed life-threatening you usually get the treatment very quickly.  Where there is some truth to the fear-mongering is the wait for elective surgery.  In short, if it not life-threatening you can face a wait.  If the Canadian system is so bad why is Canada's life expectancy higher than the US?  Rushing people off for expensive tests at the drop of a hat obviously isn't making Americans live longer.

There's one thing I never experienced in the Canadian medical system: a bill.  

Never.  Not for my GP or specialists, hospital visits, lab tests, x-rays etc.  Neither will I have any bills or  co-pays for my HIV meds.  So as someone with HIV, where would I rather be? Pretty easy choice.

I can only go by what I know, and since both sisters were facing the same cancer, one waiting for more testing and one not.  One lives and one dies.  

[AustinWesley]

This is the kind of story the American right loves to throw at US citizens about "socialized" Canadian medicine.  While I don't doubt your tale, I can tell you from my experience it has not been true.

I can call my doc up and get in often the same day.  When my dad was diagnosed with lymphoma he was in the hospital in very short order for treatment.  In short, if it's deemed life-threatening you usually get the treatment very quickly.  Where there is some truth to the fear-mongering is the wait for elective surgery.  In short, if it not life-threatening you can face a wait.  If the Canadian system is so bad why is Canada's life expectancy higher than the US?  Rushing people off for expensive tests at the drop of a hat obviously isn't making Americans live longer.

There's one thing I never experienced in the Canadian medical system: a bill.  

Never.  Not for my GP or specialists, hospital visits, lab tests, x-rays etc.  Neither will I have any bills or  co-pays for my HIV meds.  So as someone with HIV, where would I rather be? Pretty easy choice.

Yeah, why is the life expectancy so much higer in Canada?   Is it all the trees?  

Costa Rica also offers all it's citizens health care if you are a resident.    I was just watching a special the other day and they discussed the "blue zones" places where people live much longer.   Check out http://bluezones.com

[AustinWesley]

So Jeff, you think everyone should work at a big company that offers health insurance?  Is that possible?  What about the small businesses that don't?  The self-employed?

What will you do if your company STOPS offering you that nice fat subsidized group insurance plan?  What if they all stop?  They only have to let you in on it if they offer a plan, but they DON"T have to offer a plan.  As a person with HIV, you will quickly find that your insurance purchase options are zero.

Well Jeff would tell a rape victim who contracted Aids that shit happens so I guess he'd have to try to win that lottery he was talking about!

[Jeff64]

You make it sound so easy.  But it's not.

And, you're right.. let's just put the clock back to the glory days of capitalism... the late 19th century!  No government interference in anything!

No free education!  No FDA!  No Department of Labor!

Let's get back to the good old days of rats in breakfast sausages, 12 hour workdays, and child labor! 
 

Look, dear
If I can get a job that provides decent insurance, then anyone can.
I have a fun job that I love to go to every day...everyone can do that...I am not special.
Jeff

[aupointillimite]

And all those socialists living the American dream of setting up their small businesses are screwed too then.

And no... not everyone can.  Not everyone is as well-educated or skilled or smart or not learning disabled or not handicapped.

"Dear?"  Is this thread becoming Ozzie and Harriet?

[Jeff64]

I love someone who screams "FACT!" and then turns around and accuses everyone of being snippy.

People never cease to amaze me on teh intranets.

But, doll,
 It IS a fact.

If you wish to start with me, please don't.

And she WAS being snippy.

[Jeff64]

And all those socialists living the American dream of setting up their small businesses are screwed too then.

And no... not everyone can.  Not everyone is as well-educated or skilled or smart or not learning disabled or not handicapped.

I am not well educated but have a job I enjoy that has good benefits that I pay a portion of.

Why do you think this is so wrong?
I am just a plain guy who is responsible for myself. Don't diss me for that, please.

Jeff

[Jeff64]

And all those socialists living the American dream of setting up their small businesses are screwed too then.

And no... not everyone can.  Not everyone is as well-educated or skilled or smart or not learning disabled or not handicapped.

"Dear?"  Is this thread becoming Ozzie and Harriet?

It is better than saying look, cunt....isnt it?

[AustinWesley]

But, doll,
 It IS a fact.

If you wish to start with me, please don't.

And she WAS being snippy.

OMG,

Purse falls out of the mouth of a Log Cabin Republican!

I truely thought I'd seen it all!

[aupointillimite]

It is better than saying look, cunt....isnt it?

No.  In my homeland "cunt" is a term of endearment.

[Jeff64]

Well Jeff would tell a rape victim who contracted Aids that shit happens so I guess he'd have to try to win that lottery he was talking about!

We all are responsible for our own well being...be it HIV, be it rape, be it spousal abuse....

No one is to blame for our problems but ourselves. To blame anyone else is childish.

[AustinWesley]

I am not well educated but have a job I enjoy that has good benefits that I pay a portion of.

Why do you think this is so wrong?
I am just a plain guy who is responsible for myself. Don't diss me for that, please.

Jeff

Well Jeff, we agree on one thing.   You aren't well educated!

[Jeff64]

No.  In my homeland "cunt" is a term of endearment.

I love that!!

At least you have a sense of humor! LOL

Jeff

[xtremepms]

We all are responsible for our own well being...be it HIV, be it rape, be it spousal abuse....

No one is to blame for our problems but ourselves. To blame anyone else is childish.

I am not sure how a rape victim is to be blamed for being raped, please enlighten me.

[aupointillimite]

We all are responsible for our own well being...be it HIV, be it rape, be it spousal abuse....

No one is to blame for our problems but ourselves. To blame anyone else is childish.

Paging Ayn Rand... paging Ayn Rand...

[Jeff64]

Well Jeff, we agree on one thing.   You aren't well educated!

That was uncalled for. I demand an apology.

How sad you resort to that to make your own pathetic self feel good about yourself.

Consider youself reported.

Good Evening.

[Jeff64]

I am not sure how a rape victim is to be blamed for being raped, please enlighten me.

Wrong place, wrong time.

[aupointillimite]

Wrong place, wrong time.

** sound of WWII fighter jet engines going out... and crashing **

Boom.

[aztecan]

Interesting debate.

Benj, very early in this thread, you broached the subject of public education as a right. It is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. For many years, childhood education was either provided by churches or through private schools.

That said, I think a free - at least to the student  or pupil - public education is a right all should enjoy.

So, too, should healthcare be a right. Whether it is broken down by state or run on a national level, some system could be devised.

Compensation for many health care providers is substantial. Would they be inclined to participate in a universal health care system? Probably not. But not all doctors, nurses, etc., earn $1 million or more a year and surely some would take part in such a system.

The bottom line is people are doing without.

While nobody should be turned away from an emergency room, note I said should, the fact is there is no means for people to access routine or maintenance-level health care without some sort of payor source here in the U.S.

If there were a single-payor health care system, the middle men who are raking in the cash would be eliminated. I won't pretend it would be a perfect system, but it has to be better than what we have now.

There always would be the private practices for those with deep pockets.

I take exception to the idea that people doing without health care are doing so because they have failed to shoulder their responsibilities. I know a business owner who would love any type of health care. He has none. He can't afford it because, as a one-man operation, the costs are beyond his reach.

As far as "shit happens," yes, it does, if we let it.

A judge I knew had a framed saying on the wall in his chambers. It read, "A society is judged not on how it treats its best citizens, but on how it treats its least."

Paying taxes to allow everyone to access adequate health care is one way to help the least in our society. I would be more than willing to do so, both for those whom it would now help and, in a more selfish vein, because one day I will probably be among their ranks.

Of course, these comments are being made by a self-avowed socialist, so take them for what they're worth.

HUGS,

Mark

[xtremepms]

Wrong place, wrong time.

You made the statement, I am just asking for clarification.  I would not want to misunderstand a statement like that.

[whizzer]

xtreme,

I'm afraid you're looking for enlightenment where there is no light.

[northernguy]

We all are responsible for our own well being...be it HIV, be it rape, be it spousal abuse....

No one is to blame for our problems but ourselves. To blame anyone else is childish.

Ahh, so someone with a genetic heart defect is responsible for that.  Or is it their parents, or grandparents?   I'm sure all those middle management and clerical staff at Enron thought their medical insurance was pretty safe too.  

[aupointillimite]

Ahh, so someone with a genetic heart defect is responsible for that.  Or is it their parents, or grandparents?   I'm sure all those middle management and clerical staff at Enron thought their medical insurance was pretty safe too. 

And how dare those babies' whose moms drank while they were pregnant be born with FAS? 

The audacity!

[xtremepms]

xtreme,

I'm afraid you're looking for enlightenment where there is no light.

I am afraid you are right....
Sad

[aupointillimite]

Interesting debate.


The bottom line is people are doing without.

Exactly.

We're talking about people's lives here... and a lot of people aren't getting care they need (yes, they're getting emergency care... but absolutely nothing preventative) and dying as a result.

People. Are. Dying. Because. The. American. Health. Care. System. Is. Set. Up. To. Make. Money.

[Jeff64]

You made the statement, I am just asking for clarification.  I would not want to misunderstand a statement like that.

I believe (however you may not, but that's ok) That everything happens for a reason and that all of us have the choice to put ourselves in situations or not.

In the case of a car accident, a construction accident, a rape, an arguemment...are we not truly in charge of where we are and with who we hang out with?

You may not understand this "uneducated" guy, but think about it for a moment.

Jeff

[Miss Philicia]

We all are responsible for our own well being...be it HIV, be it rape, be it spousal abuse....

No one is to blame for our problems but ourselves. To blame anyone else is childish.

Did you just say an AIDS rape victim is to blame for their "decision" to be raped?

Amazing.  What drug are you on tonight?  I'd like some.

Wrong place, wrong time.

Yes, yes you did. 

We have a moron on line 3!

[aupointillimite]

I believe (however you may not, but that's ok) That everything happens for a reason and that all of us have the choice to put ourselves in situations or not.

In the case of a car accident, a construction accident, a rape, an arguemment...are we not truly in charge of where we are and with who we hang out with?

You may not understand this "uneducated" guy, but think about it for a moment.

Jeff

Because a rape and a car accident are comparable incidents?

I'm sensing a big load of "she had it coming" underneath this philosophy.

This means, we could scrap the entire judicial system!

Everything that happens to you is your fault... so why should we even attempt to punish criminals?  It's their victims who are to blame!

[AustinWesley]

Did you just say an AIDS rape victim is to blame for their "decision" to be raped?

Amazing.  What drug are you on tonight?  I'd like some.

Yeah, and he's reporting me for agreeing with the one statement that he made which was sensible!   ; )   Oh Lord, I'm so ashamed!

[Jeff64]

Did you just say an AIDS rape victim is to blame for their "decision" to be raped?

Amazing.  What drug are you on tonight?  I'd like some.

No drugs, dear, but putting oneself in harms way is not the brightest thing to do now is it?

[aupointillimite]

No drugs, dear, but putting oneself in harms way is not the brightest thing to do now is it?

Wow.

Just. Fucking. Wow.

[Jeff64]

Yeah, and he's reporting me for agreeing with the one statement that he made which was sensible!   ; )   Oh Lord, I'm so ashamed!

Just stop it already...

[ademas]

I believe (however you may not, but that's ok) That everything happens for a reason and that all of us have the choice to put ourselves in situations or not.

In the case of a car accident, a construction accident, a rape, an arguemment...are we not truly in charge of where we are and with who we hang out with?

You may not understand this "uneducated" guy, but think about it for a moment.

Jeff

So in other words, the rape victim, the accident victim, etc. are sort of "asking for it?" because they are where the are at a particular time?
Wow.

[AustinWesley]

Interesting debate.

Benj, very early in this thread, you broached the subject of public education as a right. It is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. For many years, childhood education was either provided by churches or through private schools.

That said, I think a free - at least to the student  or pupil - public education is a right all should enjoy.

So, too, should healthcare be a right. Whether it is broken down by state or run on a national level, some system could be devised.

Compensation for many health care providers is substantial. Would they be inclined to participate in a universal health care system? Probably not. But not all doctors, nurses, etc., earn $1 million or more a year and surely some would take part in such a system.

The bottom line is people are doing without.

While nobody should be turned away from an emergency room, note I said should, the fact is there is no means for people to access routine or maintenance-level health care without some sort of payor source here in the U.S.

If there were a single-payor health care system, the middle men who are raking in the cash would be eliminated. I won't pretend it would be a perfect system, but it has to be better than what we have now.

There always would be the private practices for those with deep pockets.

I take exception to the idea that people doing without health care are doing so because they have failed to shoulder their responsibilities. I know a business owner who would love any type of health care. He has none. He can't afford it because, as a one-man operation, the costs are beyond his reach.

As far as "shit happens," yes, it does, if we let it.

A judge I knew had a framed saying on the wall in his chambers. It read, "A society is judged not on how it treats its best citizens, but on how it treats its least."

Paying taxes to allow everyone to access adequate health care is one way to help the least in our society. I would be more than willing to do so, both for those whom it would now help and, in a more selfish vein, because one day I will probably be among their ranks.

Of course, these comments are being made by a self-avowed socialist, so take them for what they're worth.

HUGS,

Mark

Interesting Mark,

How bout the persuit of life, liberty and happiness?   How does that play into it? : )



[/quote]

[Jeff64]

Wow.

Just. Fucking. Wow.

And how did you get infected? Hung out with the wrong people perhaps?

That is what happend to me and it is MY responsibility and no one else is to blame.

All I have to say about you is what a prima donna!