POZ Community Forums
Off Topic Forums => Off Topic Forum => Topic started by: madbrain on October 13, 2008, 07:30:34 pm
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/10/13/international/i111319D69.DTL&feed=rss.news
I can't help but wonder how many people die of pneumonia at that age in a first world country which has very good healthcare. I don't have any evidence that he had HIV or AIDS, but that certainly would fit in with the rest of his story of drug use.
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I can't help but wonder how many people die of pneumonia at that age in a first world country which has very good healthcare.
People of all ages die of pneumonia but most of the deaths are not "news".
One problem is that younger people who are otherwise in good health quite often believe that people of their age "don't get pneumonia" so when it does happen they don't go to a doctor soon enough because they don't realize how serious it is.
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People of all ages die of pneumonia but most of the deaths are not "news".
One problem is that younger people who are otherwise in good health quite often believe that people of their age "don't get pneumonia" so when it does happen they don't go to a doctor soon enough because they don't realize how serious it is.
The only people I know that have had close calls / really bad cases of pneumonia are all HIV+. In fact, until I had PCP, I never knew how serious it could be 'cept for sickly people in hospitals.
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I think it s sick to speculate about other people's health. Guillaume Depardieu was in a bad shape
and he suffered a lot in his young life. I hope he finds peace now.
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Poor kid. I won't speculate about his HIV status, but if his body had been ravaged by a bacterial infection for ten years plus(from the accident injury), it stands to reason that a pneumonia could overtake him fairly easy. Being a youngish man, he likely didn't take it seriously. We can hope he is at peace.
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I think it s sick to speculate about other people's health.
Well, I think it's expected for public figures that there is some speculation about their health. Just look at the current election and the candidates who are running for office and you can see that it can be a perfectly legitimate, and even patriotic thing to do.
Personally, I think any public figure who will come out as HIV+ is good for us and eliminating the stigma around the disease, and also showing to the world the pressing needs that we have in terms of healthcare. I don't think the virus discriminates and that public figures are less vulnerable to it. I would much prefer if these people disclosed it when they are alive rather than after they die. My favorite writer (Isaac Asimov) was infected with HIV by a blood transfusion, and died of AIDS in 1992. His wife waited 10 years after his death to tell the world about it. I'm sure there are plenty of family members of other celebrities who did not have the courage to disclose that in similar situations even today.
It's possible that was not the case with Guillaume Depardieu and his pneumonia was not related to HIV. But given the strong association between the two in young people, I think it's at the very least legitimate to ask the question, and I'm surprised no one in the media has asked it yet. I would not be shocked if some people in the media already knew it and if the truth came out later.
Guillaume Depardieu was in a bad shape
and he suffered a lot in his young life. I hope he finds peace now.
I agree, it is very unfortunate, and I hope he finds peace too.
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Well Mad, I've seen no speculation in the French press about hiv and his death.
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Personally, I think any public figure who will come out as HIV+ is good for us and eliminating the stigma around the disease, and also showing to the world the pressing needs that we have in terms of healthcare. I don't think the virus discriminates and that public figures are less vulnerable to it. I would much prefer if these people disclosed it when they are alive rather than after they die. My favorite writer (Isaac Asimov) was infected with HIV by a blood transfusion, and died of AIDS in 1992. His wife waited 10 years after his death to tell the world about it. I'm sure there are plenty of family members of other celebrities who did not have the courage to disclose that in similar situations even today.
If someone famous does die of complications resulting from AIDS I think they deserve the same privacy as everyone else. Part of the stigma comes from people like us speculating on someones demise who we hardly knew and coming to a conclusion without any evidence.
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Well, I think it's expected for public figures that there is some speculation about their health. Just look at the current election and the candidates who are running for office and you can see that it can be a perfectly legitimate, and even patriotic thing to do.
I can see how public figures should expect speculations into their lives. But I don't think it's a fair comparison of the public's interest in the health of a potential President and a relatively unknown actor who has passed away.
I think what makes it uncomfortable is that the person is no longer able to defend/explain themself.
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Madbrain , I really think that it reflects badly on you.
And I say that with all due respect ;)
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If someone famous does die of complications resulting from AIDS I think they deserve the same privacy as everyone else. Part of the stigma comes from people like us speculating on someones demise who we hardly knew and coming to a conclusion without any evidence.
Well said, and I agree. There's this whole sensational tone to it all (on top of it being invasive and tacky).
"Do you think it was AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIDS?!?!"
It's the same way with gay stigma in this regard. Half of the continued sensationalism of it all seems to come from us. Continued speculation is half the reason it continues to be "a thing".
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Perhaps Madbrain and others are simply unaware of how serious pneumonia can be even for those without HIV. It is NOT restricted to only the old and those with HIV. In 2004, for instance it was one of the top 10 leading causes of death in the US among men aged 35-44 as a stand alone category not including HIV (which is factored out and separately reported). HIV was a bigger cause of death in this age group, but pneumonia was in the top 10 by itself.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_05.pdf (see page 22)
There's a natural tendency for us, who know people with HIV often die of pneumonia, to project the converse to be true -- that HIV lies behind most cases of pneumonia among the young. But that is not the case.
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There's a natural tendency for [some of] us, who know people with HIV often die of pneumonia, to project the converse to be true -- that HIV lies behind most cases of pneumonia among the young. But that is not the case.
Agreed, and slightly edited. But I must now ask why this tendency to "project" is prevalent, as well as what this indicates.
DISCUSS
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Perhaps Madbrain and others are simply unaware of how serious pneumonia can be even for those without HIV.
Thanks for making the point. Maybe it is because I work at a hospital but when someone dies of pneumonia I don't immediately think HIV.
Agreed, and slightly edited. But I must now ask why this tendency to "project" is prevalent, as well as what this indicates.
DISCUSS
We have an innate curiosity when it comes to death. I think this is understandable because when someone dies we want to know what happened so we can 1) not make the same mistake and 2) psychologically remove ourselves from it. I think when we have HIV we look for it in the media because many of us assume HIV will cause our demise. For the same reasons as any death we want to not make the same mistake (did he not stay on meds?, did she not get treatment soon enough?, is there a condition/side effect I don't know about?) and to psychologically remove ourselves (he didn't take care of himself, she was still doing drugs, he had an existing heart condition... that won't happen to me).
Also I think we look for HIV+ because everyone seems to search for people in the media they can relate to. People want to see other people they can identify with. They want someone to voice their opinions on the international stage and bring awareness to being HIV+, or gay, Jewish, etc.
This topic was one my mind yesterday as my partner and I ran into a gay couple at a bakery who said they had just come from a funeral. They said it was a good friend who had died at age 39. We both expressed our sympathies but didn't know these guys well enough to ask how he died, even though we were both "dying to know." Of course I was thinking the guy was relatively young, gay... HIV+? They eventually volunteered it was a heart attack from a congenital heart condition that caught up with him despite healthy diet and exercise.
Personally I think we all want to know what happened when someone dies but we should be tactful and respectful enough to not ask questions that would make mourners feel any worse. But maybe that is just me.
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Well Mad, I've seen no speculation in the French press about hiv and his death.
I haven't either, but I don't take that as evidence either way. I don't read the French press as often as I used to when I lived in France. However, I wouldn't put it past them to be silent on this. They have done so even on stories for more important people. For example, it was revealed that several journalists knew about the daughter of the former president Mitterand with his mistress for a long time, and the story of her existence didn't even come out until late into his second term, and until she was 20. I don't even think that was a very big deal. I was more shocked by the cover-up than the story.
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If someone famous does die of complications resulting from AIDS I think they deserve the same privacy as everyone else. Part of the stigma comes from people like us speculating on someones demise who we hardly knew and coming to a conclusion without any evidence.
If most famous people with HIV or AIDS had that disclosed - whether alive or not, then the need for any speculation would be greatly reduced.
When you are left with a tiny list like the one at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HIV-positive_people, then you just have to be wondering. At least I am ! Where is that same global list for people with all cancers, which is usually worse these days ? I looked for one, but I can't find it.
I am not denying that celebrities can have a right to privacy, but it seems the ones with HIV or AIDS are enjoying more than their share of it overall. I wish more had the courage to come out about it, at the same rate that they do with cancer or other serious illnesses.
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Personally, I think any public figure who will come out as HIV+ is good for us and eliminating the stigma around the disease
I don't understand how Guilaume possibly coming out that he had AIDS before he died could help the stigma surrounding this disease. People were aware of his long history of drug problems so I would gather this would be looked at as another needle user who got what he deserved more so than moving people to help the cause.
When you are left with a tiny list like the one at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HIV-positive_people, then you just have to be wondering. At least I am ! Where is that same global list for people with all cancers, which is usually worse these days ? I looked for one, but I can't find it.
Outside of say being a smoker and getting lung cancer one cannot prevent themselves from getting cancer. HIV/AIDS on the other hand is something that can be prevented, there should be no comparison in my opinion.
I know about the list you mentioned. My thoughts about that list are negative at best because it was originally started to make them out as pariahs in our community(IMO).
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Hi,
I don't understand how Guilaume possibly coming out that he had AIDS before he died could help the stigma surrounding this disease. People were aware of his long history of drug problems so I would gather this would be looked at as another needle user who got what he deserved more so than moving people to help the cause.
I think anything that puts a human face to the disease is good.
Outside of say being a smoker and getting lung cancer one cannot prevent themselves from getting cancer. HIV/AIDS on the other hand is something that can be prevented, there should be no comparison in my opinion.
If you want to play the preventable disease card, then let's play it. People who have lung cancer still come out about it even though they know they could have prevented it. After being told his whole life every year by his doctor to stop smoking, my bf's father just got diagnosed with it 3 months ago. He finally stopped smoking that day. He wasn't afraid to tell his son about his cancer. But my bf is still afraid to tell his dad that he has AIDS. Neither are celebrities, but I think the story plays out the same regardless.
There are a lot of other preventable diseases that have vaccines for, which people aren't as keen on hiding if they get them because they haven't been vaccinated.
If I was looking for the primary reasons why people are hiding their HIV/AIDS more than other diseases, I would probably look more into the primary modes of transmission - sex and drug use. Most everybody has sex at some point in their life - and yes, without a condom, so that should not be so shameful. That's one taboo right there to break. And HIV/AIDS is also more common among gays in this country, and many people are still in the closet about that. That double coming out is hard for many people (I'm still working on my bf on both!). When it comes to drug use, that seems to be fairly common among celebrities though. It was known about the subject of this thread.
I know about the list you mentioned. My thoughts about that list are negative at best because it was originally started to make them out as pariahs in our community(IMO).
That may well have been the original intent, but I think it's time to change that and make it a list of heroes rather than pariahs instead.
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Hi,
I can see how public figures should expect speculations into their lives. But I don't think it's a fair comparison of the public's interest in the health of a potential President and a relatively unknown actor who has passed away.
I accept that it's not the same - but I was just trying to rebut the point that speculating about people's health in general was sick.
I think what makes it uncomfortable is that the person is no longer able to defend/explain themself.
That's true, it's not a comfortable thing to do. I would much prefer for this to come out during someone's lifetime rather than at their death.
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Hi,
Perhaps Madbrain and others are simply unaware of how serious pneumonia can be even for those without HIV.
I know that it's a very serous disease that can be fatal at all ages. I didn't know exactly to what extent.
It is NOT restricted to only the old and those with HIV. In 2004, for instance it was one of the top 10 leading causes of death in the US among men aged 35-44 as a stand alone category not including HIV (which is factored out and separately reported). HIV was a bigger cause of death in this age group, but pneumonia was in the top 10 by itself.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_05.pdf (see page 22)
Thanks for linking to those stats. Copying from that page, 6.5% of men's deaths from that age group were due to HIV disease, and only 0.9% were due to either pneumonia or influenza. The stats don't say how many of the deaths classified as "HIV disease" were actually due to pneumonia, and they also don't separate pneumonia from influenza. So it's a bit difficult to draw conclusions from them.
There's a natural tendency for us, who know people with HIV often die of pneumonia, to project the converse to be true -- that HIV lies behind most cases of pneumonia among the young. But that is not the case.
Well, since you started the discussion and provided stats, maybe we can find the rest of the remaining stats to find just exactly how much overlap and correlation there is between the two diseases.
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Well, since you started the discussion and provided stats, maybe we can find the rest of the remaining stats to find just exactly how much overlap and correlation there is between the two diseases.
For health related stats a good place to start looking is generally the National Center for Health Statistics http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/
They show 107,000 hospitalizations for pneumonia among 15-44 year olds in 2006.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr005.pdf
There were 193,000 hospitalizations for the overall category of infectious diseases which includes HIV but also
TB, meningitis, diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, herpes ...
Given there were less than 25,000 new AIDS cases in the 15-44 year old group that year ( http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#aidsage) it would be difficult to extrapolate most pneumonia hospitalizations being HIV related. Perhaps if you are interested you can go looking for a further breakdown of the infectious disease hospitalizations, but it looks pretty clear that HIV accounts for only a small number of the pneumonia hospitalizations.
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Who really gives a shit how the guy died? I know I don't. He's just as dead no matter what the hell he died from.
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tee hee
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Who really gives a shit how the guy died? I know I don't. He's just as dead no matter what the hell he died from.
Amen!!
I have no idea how a post-mortem speculation exercise is going to do anything to help "lessen the stigma". It is likely to have the opposite effect and make folks even more likely to list death as something like "after a short illness". Of course, you could then speculate that young age and "short illness" might mean AIDS. It simply doesn't make sense to me.
Lessening stigma -- I'm all for it. Let's focus on the living.
And, it seems a bit strange that one would advocate the "famous" coming out and shout "I have AIDS" from the rooftop, but not do it ourselves.
Mike
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And, it seems a bit strange that one would advocate the "famous" coming out and shout "I have AIDS" from the rooftop, but not do it ourselves.
Oh, but madbrain has. He even has the car tag to prove it.
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A big difference between the "ordinary" pneumonia, and the AIDS related Pneumocystis Pneumonia PCP
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Oh, but madbrain has. He even has the car tag to prove it.
Tim,
Thanks -- you pointed out that I did NOT make my point properly -- I didn't mean to imply that madbrain has not come out (sorry for any confusion). My point was that we often (myself included) read on this board about the fear of letting too many (or the wrong) people know. We all have very good reasons and the "famous" may also have very good reasons, i.e. ability to earn a living, etc......
Now -- I know -- in a perfect world it wouldn't matter, but it does and while it's true that if more and more people came out about HIV the stigma would be lessened, thus making it easier -- that doesn't give ANYONE the right to force someone.
Mike
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I've never understood the bizarre assumption (or need) that the death of a celebrity ( and in this case I use the term very loosely) to AIDS, somehow lowers the needle on the stigma-meter.
Of course the speculation being raised is ridiculous, but for the sake of a lame argument, about the best you get out of it is another lesson in the consequences of risky behaviour.
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Tim,
Thanks -- you pointed out that I did NOT make my point properly -- I didn't mean to imply that madbrain has not come out (sorry for any confusion). My point was that we often (myself included) read on this board about the fear of letting too many (or the wrong) people know. We all have very good reasons and the "famous" may also have very good reasons, i.e. ability to earn a living, etc......
Now -- I know -- in a perfect world it wouldn't matter, but it does and while it's true that if more and more people came out about HIV the stigma would be lessened, thus making it easier -- that doesn't give ANYONE the right to force someone.
Mike
Mike(Bocker),
Tim is referring to the following, quite literally I might add:
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=22956.0
Under this premise introduced by MB I guess if Guillaume Depardieu did have AIDS and knew he was dieing he could have requested the following tags for his auto:
HRTFAILURE= HART Faillure
ATRNOWORK= Atripla didn't work
BOUT2D4AIDS= About to die for AIDS
Hope this clears up any misunderstanding Mike ;).
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What I find shocking in this thread is that it is assumed by Madbrain that just because you are a "famous" person, you must deny your career and private life and confess your HIV.
First off, if I am making $3,000,000,000 dollars a year, and my "image" is part and parcel of my income; why is it mandatory that I comit professional suicide and declare my status, just so the rest of us can feel destigmatized. I find this assumption incredibly insane and outside of reasonable conclusions.
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What I find shocking in this thread is that it is assumed by Madbrain that just because you are a "famous" person, you must deny your career and private life and confess your HIV.
Except I never made that point. Don't put words in my mouth.
First off, if I am making $3,000,000,000 dollars a year, and my "image" is part and parcel of my income; why is it mandatory that I comit professional suicide and declare my status, just so the rest of us can feel destigmatized. I find this assumption incredibly insane and outside of reasonable conclusions.
I never said that it was mandatory. But I find it disappointing that so few public figures come out about it. And I think that if more people did it, that doing so in the future would no longer need to have a negative influence on one's image or career.
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I'd like to think that more famous people would be out about their status. After all, Magic Johnson did so many years ago before many folks had even heard of AIDS, GRID, HIV, ARC, or whatever else it's been called. I've never seen or heard anything negative from his doing so. The fact that more aren't is testament to the stigma that still surrounds HIV / AIDS. Hopefully, in time, it won't be as much of an issue. FWIW, I have instructed those close to me that if I die of complications from AIDS that they don't lie about it.
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I'd like to think that more famous people would be out about their status. After all, Magic Johnson did so many years ago before many folks had even heard of AIDS, GRID, HIV, ARC, or whatever else it's been called. I've never seen or heard anything negative from his doing so. The fact that more aren't is testament to the stigma that still surrounds HIV / AIDS. Hopefully, in time, it won't be as much of an issue. FWIW, I have instructed those close to me that if I die of complications from AIDS that they don't lie about it.
Actually David he was under pressure to retire from the peers he played against. One player in particular, Karl Malone, said he would not even play with Magic because he might get his sweat on him. Magic did go on to do other things, but the one thing he loved most, basketball was kind of pulled out from underneath him sort of speak.
In the movie Poetic Justice Janet Jackson didn't want to do a kiss scene with Tupac until he had a negative HIV test result in hand.
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Actually David he was under pressure to retire from the peers he played against. One player in particular, Karl Malone, said he would not even play with Magic because he might get his sweat on him. Magic did go on to do other things, but the one thing he loved most, basketball was kind of pulled out from underneath him sort of speak.
In the movie Poetic Justice Janet Jackson didn't want to do a kiss scene with Tupac until he had a negative HIV test result in hand.
Tom,
Thank for adding that. I was meaning mainly from people around me talking... as in the general public. Personally, I've never heard anything but good things from people about him. It all goes to show how strong he is and how rampant ignorance is. Ugh. That bit about Ms. Janet is a real turn-off, too. I know others will disagree, but I do think that knowing HIV+ people does somewhat reduce the stigma. The more well known a person is (ie a celeb, famous, etc) the more people 'know' him/her. I guess I'm trying to say that it puts a face to HIV/AIDS instead of just associating it with 'them'.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkobQkUqIGE
Everyone has AIDS!
My grandma and my dog 'ol blue (AIDS AIDS AIDS)
The pope has got it and so do you (AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS)
C'mon everybody we got quilting to do (AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS AIDS)
We gotta break down these baricades, everyone has
AIDS! x 20
I'm with Ann, he's dead, not our business really, give the guy some peace. R.I.P. Guillaume.
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Why does the POPE have to have AIDS. Why not Billy Graham. I think I will get back to quilt, but just a thought. Us poor catholics have enough problems without the POPE having AIDS to yet. ;D
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Don't forget -- Arafat took it up the ass and got teh AIDS too!
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In all seriousness, judging from the number of posts, its obviously an interesting enough question - where are the HIV+ celebrities?
But everyone has a right to their private life, so if they want to keep it quiet, and take the secret to their grave, it's nobody's business.
This thread made me remember Rock Hudson's "Aids Kiss Shocker!", (scenes shot in 84, "shocker" revealed on his death bed). Remember all the fears, ignorance, and educational opportunities surrounding that kiss, about saliva and transmission? Almost 25 years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e3dT5gCuL0 just the kiss (33 secs)
longer version, gee, its a sad scene and Hudson looks so ill its double sad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s_n5RzSkEM&feature=related
Celebrity trial and tribulations do offer a chance for public education. No one would wish an HIV diagnosis on any celebrity, but a few more celebrities like Magic Johnson, with all the good he has done, would be most welcome.
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Don't forget -- Arafat took it up the ass and got teh AIDS too!
And here all this time I thought you liked certain ethnic South Americans. ??? ;D ;)
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Yeah and the rumours about Arafat and his supposed indifference to HIV transmission get pretty dark, indeed. Plus he is supposed to have stolen between 3 and 7 billion from the Palestinians!
Modified: But thats the point. Just rumours. If the person chooses not to pronounce on such topics, its no one's business. Unless its something like those "outing" controversies of the 90's - outing hypocrites because their hypocrisy hurts gay rights or something like that. So I guess if some celebrity were publicly a hypocrite to his private reality, he/she finally gets what's coming...
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Uh, just how famous was the dude? Cause I am scratching my head wondering who the hell he was???? I know there was an actor with that last name or is it a politician? Honestly, I could care less how he died, not trying to sound cold but damn. Death is certain, life isn't. Hell if I had my choice of going out I would either want to die:
getting some ass
in my sleep
or on the toilet so I won't make a mess when someone finds my ass.
~~Have a Nice Day~~ :P
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Uh, just how famous was the dude?
He was son of just about the biggest French movie star Gérard D., and had a tempestuous relationship with him.
Guillaume was a acting star in his own right, regularly in movies and television. As a personality, he was a fixture in celebrity press due to being "son of" and also his own hard-luck life.
He was also an EXTREMELY handsome young man, who's face and body eventually showed the toll of his artist lifestyle and drugs and bad luck.
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Uh, just how famous was the dude?
If you have to ask, you got the answer. Not much. ;D
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"artist lifestyle" ?