Condom Usage

[MoltenStorm]

I've always found this kind of interesting. I was reading some of the answers in the "disclosing to a sex partner" thread, and I'm wondering why a person would continue to bareback after becoming HIV+? Is it because there's this feeling of "I already have the worst STD, fuck it, it's on like donkey kong? Please pass the Crisco?" I don't get it. I'm not judging, but it just is it a bit of a conundrum to me. What about all the other pesky STDs one could catch - the ones with no cure? Herpes, Genital Warts, etc.? Wouldn't they complicate matters since our immune system is already compromised?

I'm not meaning to start a flame war between the Protectors and Carefree, but I'm just curious as to "how" a person can bareback while being HIV+? (And before Dingo makes some smart-assed remark about "well, they don't use a condom, that's how" - I'm talking about the mindset.) I'm genuinely curious. Is your HIV status an open door to a completely uninhibited barebacking spree? Are they passing out barebacking cards with your HIV card these days? LOL

But seriously, why does one choose to not protect themselves from the possibility of catching something else as well?

[keyite]

Molten - thanks for bringing this up, I've been wondering that myself. Leaving out the whole re/super infection issue, which in the end might or might not prove real, there's a whole host of other nasties out there. Some, like Hep C or syphilis, are potentially devastating to an already compromised immune system.

Being brutally honest, when still a neggie I used to think guys who consistently barebacked with casual partners were either spectacularly ill-informed or fundamentally cared very little about their own health or the health of their partners. Neither position would be much of a turn-on to me. Yes, it was very much a stance without any nuance but I suppose it was my protection mechanism to keep myself from becoming infected - and it did work for many years.

Since becoming poz I feel I have had to revise that thinking. Partly because it would be corrosive to my sense of self being poz to harbour such negative feelings about fellow pozzies and partly - and not least - because I have 'got to know' many barebackers on here who are plainly highly intelligent, well-informed and caring people.

I fully accept the 'big boys make informed decisions and accept their consequences' line of thinking but I would love to know the personal cost/benefit analysis, if you like, that underpins this decision. Is it that you consider the risk of you contracting something else to be too insignificant (i.e. it's not likely to happen to you)? Or that life's too short so why worry about things that might or might not happen? Or that, if and when it does happen, you will find a way to deal with it, much as you have with HIV? Or that HIV already has taken away so much and this is the one pleasure in life it's not going to take away? Or something completely different?

Like Molten, I'm genuinely curious.

[Queen Tokelove]

Not trying to be snide or anything but I have given up trying to figure out other people's mindset on things. I have enough just trying to deal with my own issues. If I was to have sex anywhere in the future, I would have a condom ready for my own peace of mind. Because like you said, it's enough just dealing with hiv.

I am interested to get the raw doggers point of view of course. Not trying to pass judgement but wants to know their views too...

[ACinKC]

This has also been discussed ad nauseum on here.

[keyite]

This has also been discussed ad nauseum on here.

Where? Links to those threads would be helpful. Been on here more or less daily since September and I don't recall this aspect being discussed before.

[David_CA]

Where? Links to those threads would be helpful. Been on here more or less daily since September and I don't recall this aspect being discussed before.

Click on the 'Search' button above and type in "bare".  You'll find TONS of posts.

David

[keyite]

Click on the 'Search' button above and type in "bare".  You'll find TONS of posts.

Yes, indeed there are. They cover all kind of aspects related to bareback. None of them appear to discuss the thinking / motivation / decisions that underpin that choice.

[izprince1984]

I've always found this kind of interesting. I was reading some of the answers in the "disclosing to a sex partner" thread, and I'm wondering why a person would continue to bareback after becoming HIV+? Is it because there's this feeling of "I already have the worst STD, fuck it, it's on like donkey kong? Please pass the Crisco?" I don't get it. I'm not judging, but it just is it a bit of a conundrum to me. What about all the other pesky STDs one could catch - the ones with no cure? Herpes, Genital Warts, etc.? Wouldn't they complicate matters since our immune system is already compromised?

I'm not meaning to start a flame war between the Protectors and Carefree, but I'm just curious as to "how" a person can bareback while being HIV+? (And before Dingo makes some smart-assed remark about "well, they don't use a condom, that's how" - I'm talking about the mindset.) I'm genuinely curious. Is your HIV status an open door to a completely uninhibited barebacking spree? Are they passing out barebacking cards with your HIV card these days? LOL

But seriously, why does one choose to not protect themselves from the possibility of catching something else as well?

It's called Self-Destructive Behavior.

And a lot of people with HIV will knowingly conceal it because they honestly don't care what happens to anyone else, there have been some that have made a "game" out of it and go around seeing how many people they can infect before they die.

[ACinKC]

Where? Links to those threads would be helpful. Been on here more or less daily since September and I don't recall this aspect being discussed before.

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10999.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8837.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10433.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10698.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10737.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=1095.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=707.0


Just a few.

Andrew
(who has recently engaged the search drive and is heading toward Warp 9)

[ACinKC]

Yes, indeed there are. They cover all kind of aspects related to bareback. None of them appear to discuss the thinking / motivation / decisions that underpin that choice.

Milkers thread on page 2 has 270 responses about this very topic.  Link above.

[Ann]

It's called Self-Destructive Behavior.

And a lot of people with HIV will knowingly conceal it because they honestly don't care what happens to anyone else, there have been some that have made a "game" out of it and go around seeing how many people they can infect before they die.

Wow, how do you back up your statement that "a lot" of positive people are going around trying to infect people? I don't know a single one. Everyone I know would be absolutely mortified to be responsible for the infection of another.

Ann

[keyite]

Just a few.

Andrew
(who has recently engaged the search drive and is heading toward Warp 9)

Yeah, and they are all about whether or not re/super infection is possible, how to disclose to partners (incl Milker's case), the virtues of serosorting, etc. None of them anything to do with the topic posed by Molten in this thread. At the risk of repeating myself:

None of them appear to discuss the thinking / motivation / decisions that underpin that choice.

[ACinKC]

Yeah, and they are all about whether or not re/super infection is possible, how to disclose to partners (incl Milker's case), the virtues of serosorting, etc. None of them anything to do with the topic posed by Molten in this thread. At the risk of repeating myself:

I guess when *I* read them I saw alot of the reasons/thinking/decisions that underpinned peoples choices.  ESPECIALLY in the Ive Been Bad thread.

[milker]

Well I guess i'm a case 

My motivation was

1) the other guy told me right away that he only barebacked. I know that doesn't imply he's HIV+, and the HIV+ discussion never happened with him, but I felt comfortable having bb sex with him.
 
2) it had been a few years since I had sexclub experience, and I happen to see all those naked men around me fucking, most condomless, I must have had a "fuck it, if they do it then why not me" reaction. I was under the influence of alcohol which did not help reasoning.

3) i may, and I want to emphasize the may because I still cannot confirm if this is true or not, but I may have thought deep in me "one last time" (bb sex).

I have had another experience, this time one to one, and it was with another positive person, we disclosed to each other and went on humping each other right away. He asked me to not cum in him, and that was no problem for me.

I do not feel that i'm yet able to control myself or able to disclose without putting the fear of rejection on top of it, so I have refrained from putting myself in this situation again because I do not want to put anyone at risk. Porn works wonders.

Milker.

[woodshere]

Well I wrote this response once and lost it somewhere or it is in a thread where it shouldn't be.

So you want someone's mindset or thinking in regards to having bb sex.  I'll be the  victim...... I mean volunteer.  Forget how great it physically feels to go raw or exciting to have a guy shoot his load in you or you in him. It is a matter of risk one is willing to accept.  Almost everything we do in life has some risk associated with it.  Flying, driving, eating at KFC or Taco Bell in NYC, working in a silo on a farm or 2 poz guys having bareback sex all have risk factors.  To what extent are you willing to accept the risk associated with the activity.  For me I have weighed the risk versus the pleasure of bareback sex and it is one I am willing to accept.  Prior to testing poz I practiced safe sex most of the time and so far have been extremely lucky and never contracted an STD.....oh accept for this HIV thing and crabs once or twice.  Perhaps I will change my mind after my first STD, just hope my luck continues to hold out.

Woods

[ACinKC]

Well I wrote this response once and lost it somewhere or it is in a thread where it shouldn't be.

So you want someone's mindset or thinking in regards to having bb sex.  I'll be the a victim...... I mean volunteer.  Forget how great it physically feels to go raw or exciting to have a guy shoot his load in you or you in him. It is a matter of risk one is willing to accept.  Almost everything we do in life has some risk associated with it.  Flying, driving, eating at KFC or Taco Bell in NYC, working in a silo on a farm or 2 poz guys having bareback sex all have risk factors.  To what extent are you willing to accept the risk associated with the activity.  For me I have weighed the risk versus the pleasure of bareback sex and it is one I am willing to accept.  Prior to testing poz I practiced safe sex most of the time and so far have been extremely lucky and never contracted an STD.....oh accept for this HIV thing and crabs once or twice.  Perhaps I will change my mind after my first STD, just hope my luck continues to hold out.

Woods

WOW.  Great post.

[puertorico2006]

It's called Self-Destructive Behavior.

And a lot of people with HIV will knowingly conceal it because they honestly don't care what happens to anyone else, there have been some that have made a "game" out of it and go around seeing how many people they can infect before they die.

Although there are a few people out there that do try to infect others i think they are few and far between. I mean there maybe the occasional mishap but i dont think the majority are intentional......



Is this question refering to people who have BB sex with other people who are HIV+ or people who willingly infect others??

I know there are risks involved with having unprotected sex with another HIV+ person but i guess im willing to take that risk....

As far as self-destructive behavior is concerned i think that many of us were self destructive before we became HIV+ ...not saying all but a great many....being Self-destructive is part of the reason i became positive in the first place. I didnt care what happened to me. didnt think of the future, just kept doing drugs, having sex, not working and taking a break from school....sounds pretty destructive to me and many have done the same

-josh
(who now cares what happens to himself:-))

[pozinbama]

What about all the other pesky STDs one could catch - the ones with no cure? Herpes, Genital Warts, etc.?

You can still get Herpes and Genital Warts even if you wear a condom though. I agree with what woodshere wrote as well. It's really about looking at the risk, versus the pleasure received, and asking yourself if you are willing to accept that risk. My opinion is that it is far more dangerous to get behind the wheel of my car (which I do every day without thinking about it) than to have condomless sex. And, my penis does not like condoms. Not at all.

Steven

[puertorico2006]

how many people actually use a condom for oral sex?

IVE NEVER done that...so yes you can get herpes, syphilis, HPV, and Hep b from oral sex i believe

[aupointillimite]

I'm on a condom kick right now, thanks to the Recent Unpleasantness... but I only ever had unprotected sex with other poz guys based on the, "Fuck it, I've got the worse one, how bad could any of the other ones be?" theory.

Two weeks of Cipro and a catheterization later, my question was answered.

[puertorico2006]

LMAO.....yea i bet that makes you want to use one :-D...but wait till you get the gonorhea in the throat anyways and still have to take cipro  haha but i guess you get out of the catheterization deal..but i thought you liked that 

-josh
(who now remembers why he hasnt had sex in a while)

[mudman8]

well guys, and gals,  I was a condom user for a long time, but ran into so many guys that didn't want it. I mainly trick with poz men tho if a guy is neg I would always use a condom.  They all wanted the real thing up their butts so I gave it to them.  Tho I'm now dating a great guy and I did find him on the internet, it was a chance meeting I jumped his bones big time.  We finally passed the clap between us, I think him to me, I haven't had that in over 23 years. Recently I talked with him, I'll BB him,  but I'm going to use a condom on the other guys,  and he's agreed to do the same.

I'm a bit scared of an LA Times article on this new resistant gonorhea and herpes scares teh shit out of me. Tho what good is that going to do when I perform my heart rending deep throat on a bare dick?  No guy wants a condom  when I'm blowing him and I'm not going to put another condom in my mouth. Ewe ick!!!!!

[DingoBoi]

...but I'm just curious as to "how" a person can bareback while being HIV+?

 well, they don't use a condom, that's how

which is exactly what got most of us here in the first place.  Distaste for using condoms.  A silly little thing like hiv doesn't change that behavior in most people.

What's a little herpes or clap?  Bonus Prizes!

The perceived risk is worth it to me in spite of any consequences.

[stratosphere]

 Flying, driving, eating at KFC or Taco Bell in NYC, working in a silo on a farm or 2 poz guys having bareback sex all have risk factors.  

Great,  i had KFC for dinner,  that was probably a lousy decision on my part   

As for BB,  i think poor choices and being under the influences of alcohol led me to do this a couple of times.  I'm guessing thats how i got this gift.  Now that i think about it how stupid was i?   But that is the past,  and im living in the future,  so be it.  But i am in a very loving and faithful relationship with a negative boy so BB is out of the question for us. 

[izprince1984]

Wow, how do you back up your statement that "a lot" of positive people are going around trying to infect people? I don't know a single one. Everyone I know would be absolutely mortified to be responsible for the infection of another.

Ann

Well, there was a guy in Canada a few years ago that went around and infected more than 100 women, intentionally, a similar incident happened in upstate New York.

I cringe when I look on personals postings and see "Safer Sex: Negotiable".

And then most of the people that I, personally, know who are infected use all kinds of drugs and have sex with scores of men, in fact one of them just ended up in the hospital last year with HIV, Gonorrhea, Syphilis, Genital Warts, and Hepatitis B, his skin was dark orange, his eyes were yellow, and he was pissing blackened urine, it was really quite disguisting.

Those are the kind of people I was talking about though, the ones who have no respect for themselves, and sure as HELL don't have any consideration for others.

I'm not saying that all people are that way, or even most, but I would say that "quite a few" is still quite a few too many, and I think those people are the scum of the earth.

[izprince1984]

well, they don't use a condom, that's how

which is exactly what got most of us here in the first place.  Distaste for using condoms.  A silly little thing like hiv doesn't change that behavior in most people.

What's a little herpes or clap?  Bonus Prizes!

The perceived risk is worth it to me in spite of any consequences.

I have herpes and I had gonorrhea, and I am HIV+, I caught them all from the same person.

What luck, huh?

[izprince1984]

I'm on a condom kick right now, thanks to the Recent Unpleasantness... but I only ever had unprotected sex with other poz guys based on the, "Fuck it, I've got the worse one, how bad could any of the other ones be?" theory.

Two weeks of Cipro and a catheterization later, my question was answered.

Well I could have told you that one, besides the issue of reinfection and mutated strains that could cause your meds to become ineffective.

[aupointillimite]

Well I could have told you that one, besides the issue of reinfection and mutated strains that could cause your meds to become ineffective.

I seem to have caught stupid, non-resistant gonorrhea.

The Cipro has worked beautifully.

[aupointillimite]

Oh, you're talking about HIV Super Duper Infection.

Meh, I think if it was a major risk, we'd be hearing lots more about it.

Lots and lots more.

I'm not particularly worried about catching another strain of HIV... another STD that causes pissing to become impossible?

That's problematic.

[izprince1984]

I seem to have caught stupid, non-resistant gonorrhea.

The Cipro has worked beautifully.

Yeah, thats what I had, the herpes hasn't really been much of a problem, I'm on Acyclovir for it and haven't had an outbreak in two years.

[izprince1984]

Oh, you're talking about HIV Super Duper Infection.

Meh, I think if it was a major risk, we'd be hearing lots more about it.

Lots and lots more.

I'm not particularly worried about catching another strain of HIV... another STD that causes pissing to become impossible?

That's problematic.

Well, I didn't allow mine to get that bad, I got up to piss one morning and it felt like I was pissing razors, then it starts bleeding, I'm at the emergency clinic 15 minutes later.

[aupointillimite]

Well, I didn't allow mine to get that bad, I got up to piss one morning and it felt like I was pissing razors, then it starts bleeding, I'm at the emergency clinic 15 minutes later.

Oh yeah... I've been there.

I felt like I was pissing liquid hot magma for a couple days.

It got harder to do so... until I woke up one morning and couldn't make the pee pee.

So, I went to the ER... where there was a bright shiny catheter and a big bottle of antibiotics with my name written all over them.

[izprince1984]

Oh yeah... I've been there.

I felt like I was pissing liquid hot magma for a couple days.

It got harder to do so... until I woke up one morning and couldn't make the pee pee.

So, I went to the ER... where there was a bright shiny catheter and a big bottle of antibiotics with my name written all over them.

Well how the hell long did you wait?

[aupointillimite]

Well how the hell long did you wait?

Well, I'd gone to the doctor to get the clap treated, and they gave me the standard treatment.

But unbeknownst to me, it had already migrated into my prostate where the problems started... so there wasn't anything single dose antibiotics could do. 

Ascending infections are punk rawk.

[edfu]

At the risk of bringing much wrath down upon my head, I would propose that one of the reasons for some people has to do with what I would call the the culture of narcissism that has infected our world, beginning at the second half of the last century: 

If I want something, I have every right to pursue it and to get it.
It is also my right to be encouraged by everyone to do so.  No one has the right to tell me to stop.

If something is wrong in my life, it is never my fault, because I am perfect; it is always the fault of someone or something else.

If I am not wonderful, it is my right to be told by my parents and my friends that I am.

If I want to eat unhealthy food and inappropriate amounts of it, it is my right to do so, but it is not my fault if I am overweight, and I ought not to be criticized for it.

If I want to fuck without a condom, because it feels better, it is my right to feel better.

If I make a mistake, it is my right to blame someone else, because I cannot make a mistake.

If I think I am the world's best singer, it is my right to be told by family and friends that it is so, and it is my right to win "American Idol"; anyone who tells me otherwise is just ignorant, because I know that I am the best. 

If I am horny, it is my right to have as much sex as I want anywhere at any time with anyone in any manner.   

Since I am special and have always been told that, it doesn't matter how much what I do might cause unhappiness or unpleasantness for others, who are not as special as I am.

Bad things can't happen to me, because I am blessed by the gods.   

[milker]

I'm not sure you're describing narcissism. Narcissism is about self love and has absolutely nothing to do with what you're saying.

What you're quoting is "I have the right to live, and fuck yes i'm gonna fully use that right".

If we don't want people to take that right then we shouldn't make babies.

Milker.

[edfu]

If someone CAN do something, does that mean they are justified in doing so?  Are there never rational, ethical, legal, reasons for NOT doing something that CAN be done? 

[milker]

If someone CAN do something, does that mean they are justified in doing so?  Are there never rational, ethical, legal, reasons for NOT doing something that CAN be done? 

Welcome to the world of the human mind and culture. The philosophers, from ancient greece to now have been talking about this forever.

Milker. 

[Miss Philicia]

edfu, I don't think this just started in 1950.

[edfu]

No, it didn't just start in 1950, but it has radically intensified since then.  Many cultural and sociological commentators have begun to point this out.  Out of hundreds of examples, note the following:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17349066/

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2004/nov/09/ethicist_bemoans_me/

[edfu]

Welcome to the world of the human mind and culture. The philosophers, from ancient greece to now have been talking about this forever.

Milker. 

Exactly.  The discussion, however, must be on-going and never-ending.  The core issues of condom usage vs. non-condom usage are (1) immediate gratification vs. long-term consequences and (2) individual pleasure and happiness vs. the welfare and happiness of the Other. 

[DingoBoi]

it often immediately gratifies me to make snarky remarks here in the forum.  Oh yes, I've had one or two incidents like gonnoreah or crabs, but, much like a time-out, it's a minor annoyance and only takes a few weeks to cure.

I often make these remarks without regard to how others feel, but then I don't feel they are concerned about me either.  So I pick my pleasure over theirs.

How's that for an analogy? 

hehe, I said anal!

Sadly, it's pretty accurate for more than a few members here.   I think most of us have a talent for self-destructive behavior.

I know I excel at it.

[milker]

*

[MoltenStorm]

I'm on a condom kick right now, thanks to the Recent Unpleasantness... but I only ever had unprotected sex with other poz guys based on the, "Fuck it, I've got the worse one, how bad could any of the other ones be?" theory.

Two weeks of Cipro and a catheterization later, my question was answered.

Forgive me, but ROFLMAO... 

Dingo, I knew you were gonna do it. I just knew it. You couldn't resist, could you? 

Someone asked if I was referring to Pozzies with Pozzies or Pozzies and Neggies: I'm referring to barebacking in general without regard to the status of the other person.

[puertorico2006]

Forgive me, but ROFLMAO... 

 I'm referring to barebacking in general without regard to the status of the other person.

oh ok...well in my case i like to know the status of the other person before making that decision....but thats just me :-)....

[NewYorkKat]

You must be one sick MF you think being poz means unprotected sex. Since a poz person immune system is already surpressed, you are more receptable to catching other STD's! Why put more fire in the oven when it's already hot? There is a super-infection of HIV. Now a drug resistant form of gonorhea! And you should even put a condom on when you perform oral sex! What is fueling all of this? The internet and the low key safe sex ads! Toxic drugs, constant doctor visits, rejection, nasty side effects and mental breakdowns all could have prevented by the use of a condom! I know I messed up as well but I wouldn't want to make it worse for myself.