Judge Rules Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional

[Joe K]

Judge Rules Gay Marriage Ban Unconstitutional
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: July 8, 2010

Filed at 5:21 p.m. ET

BOSTON (AP) -- A U.S. judge in Boston has ruled that a federal gay marriage ban is unconstitutional because it interferes with the right of a state to define marriage.

U.S. District Judge Joseph Tauro on Thursday ruled in favor of gay couples' rights in two separate challenges to the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act, known as DOMA.

The state had argued the law denied benefits such as Medicaid to gay married couples in Massachusetts, where same-sex unions have been legal since 2004.

Tauro agreed, and said the act forces Massachusetts to discriminate against its own citizens.

"The federal government, by enacting and enforcing DOMA, plainly encroaches upon the firmly entrenched province of the state, and in doing so, offends the Tenth Amendment. For that reason, the statute is invalid," Tauro wrote in a ruling in a lawsuit filed by Attorney General Martha Coakley.

Ruling in a separate case filed by Gays & Lesbian Advocates & Defenders, Tauro found that DOMA violates the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution.

"We've maintained from the very beginning that there was absolutely no basis for this law treating one class of married Massachusetts couples different from everybody else and the court has recognized that," said Gary Buseck, GLAD's legal director.

The Justice Department argued the federal government has the right to set eligibility requirements for federal benefits -- including requiring that those benefits only go to couples in marriages between a man and a woman.

The law was enacted by Congress in 1996 when it appeared Hawaii would soon legalize same-sex marriage and opponents worried that other states would be forced to recognize such marriages. The lawsuit challenges only the portion of the law that prevents the federal government from affording pension and other benefits to same-sex couples.

Since then, five states and the District of Columbia have legalized gay marriage.

[Hellraiser]

Totally badass.

[next2u]

about fucking time.

[tednlou2]

I was sad to hear Hawaii governor vetoed the bill to allow same sex unions.  Is it just me, or does she look like a big lesbian herself?

[madbrain]

I was sad to hear Hawaii governor vetoed the bill to allow same sex unions.  Is it just me, or does she look like a big lesbian herself?

It's not just you. She is a closeted lesbian.

[bocker3]

I was sad to hear Hawaii governor vetoed the bill to allow same sex unions.  Is it just me, or does she look like a big lesbian herself?

Is it just me or does your comment "does she look like a big lesbian herself?" seem to be intended as a negative thing?  It's one thing to throw criticism at someone for being a hypocrite, but if we can't stop throwing stereotypes around in a derogatory way, how can expect others to do so?
I'm sure this wasn't what you meant, but.......

edited to add:  Just what does a "big lesbian" look like anyway??

Mike

[Hellraiser]

Is it just me or does your comment "does she look like a big lesbian herself?" seem to be intended as a negative thing?  It's one thing to throw criticism at someone for being a hypocrite, but if we can't stop throwing stereotypes around in a derogatory way, how can expect others to do so?
I'm sure this wasn't what you meant, but.......

edited to add:  Just what does a "big lesbian" look like anyway??

Mike

I don't think he meant it as an insult.  As for stereotypes the thing about them is although they may be a little offensive...they are generally true.  People notice patterns and people with similar traits sometimes share a pattern.  He was observing that in his experience she looks or acts somewhat like other lesbians he's known.

[Miss Philicia]

Just what does a "big lesbian" look like anyway??

Overweight, lots of flannel, and a mullet.

[Matty the Damned]

Is it just me or does your comment "does she look like a big lesbian herself?" seem to be intended as a negative thing?  It's one thing to throw criticism at someone for being a hypocrite, but if we can't stop throwing stereotypes around in a derogatory way, how can expect others to do so?
I'm sure this wasn't what you meant, but.......

edited to add:  Just what does a "big lesbian" look like anyway??

Mike

I was wondering the same thing, Mike.

Explain yourself Teddy.

MtD

[BT65]

I don't think he meant it as an insult.  As for stereotypes the thing about them is although they may be a little offensive...they are generally true.  People notice patterns and people with similar traits sometimes share a pattern.  He was observing that in his experience she looks or acts somewhat like other lesbians he's known.

Oh, heaven help us.  Does it really have to be analyzed under a microscope?

[Matty the Damned]

Back on topic (we'll deal with you later Teddy), Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council has just sent me his bracing daily missive.

Subject? Why this one of course!

Boston Massacre of Marriage

Four hundred twenty-seven. That's how many members of Congress voted to pass the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996. One. The number of activist judges it took to strike the law down.

I'll spare you the rest. Wordsmith supreme is our Tony. Such heights of hyperbole!

MtD

[tednlou2]

I mean no malice, but I stand by my comment that she looks like a lesbian to me--just like many can tell I'm gay.  Stereotypes are often based in truth whether you're white, black, asian, gay, straight, Christian or Jewish.  It only is a problem when you discriminate against someone for who they are. 

[Matty the Damned]

I mean no malice, but I stand by my comment that she looks like a lesbian to me--just like many can tell I'm gay.  Stereotypes are often based in truth whether you're white, black, asian, gay, straight, Christian or Jewish.  It only is a problem when you discriminate against someone for who they are. 

Fuck me. How does one respond to shit like this?

I mean are we really so fucking backwards that this can stand as an acceptable argument?

On the basis of her appearance I declare her to be a big ugly dyke.



MtD

[Hellraiser]

Fuck me. How does one respond to shit like this?

I mean are we really so fucking backwards that this can stand as an acceptable argument?

On the basis of her appearance I declare her to be a big ugly dyke.



MtD

Oh come on Matty you know that's not what he said, you added a little flare there don't you think?  On the basis of her appearance he thought she might be a lesbian.  That's not a good thing or bad thing, it's just a neutral statement that he thought he was able to figure out her sexuality from her appearance.  He could also be wrong.

[Matty the Damned]

Oh come on Matty you know that's not what he said, you added a little flare there don't you think?  On the basis of her appearance he thought she might be a lesbian.  That's not a good thing or bad thing, it's just a neutral statement that he thought he was able to figure out her sexuality from her appearance.  He could also be wrong.

How in the fuck is her appearance the issue?

Whatever we might think of the matter at hand, she is the duly elected Governor of Hawaii. It is her constitutional perogative to veto a bill presented to her by the state legislature.

Do either of you post or even link to the Governor's comments surrounding her exercise of the negative voice?

No, not a bit of it. All we get is the same tired old mysogynisitic crap. She looks butch therefore she must be a dyke therefore she must be wrong.

MtD

[Hellraiser]

How in the fuck is her appearance the issue?

Whatever we might think of the matter at hand, she is the duly elected Governor of Hawaii. It is her constitutional perogative to veto a bill presented to her by the state legislature.

Do either of you post or even link to the Governor's comments surrounding her exercise of the negative voice?

No, not a bit of it. All we get is the same tired old mysogynisitic crap. She looks butch therefore she must be a dyke therefore she must be wrong.

MtD

I actually haven't even seen what she looks like I was just defending Ted.  I don't think she's wrong if she wants to veto this, regardless of the fact that she's a woman or potentially a lesbian.  I'm all for gay marriage but I realize not everyone agrees with me.  I am a little curious why madbrain thinks she is a closeted lesbian too though, is it also just from visual cues or do you know something the rest of us don't?

[Matty the Damned]

I actually haven't even seen what she looks like I was just defending Ted.  I don't think she's wrong if she wants to veto this, regardless of the fact that she's a woman or potentially a lesbian.  I'm all for gay marriage but I realize not everyone agrees with me.  I am a little curious why madbrain thinks she is a closeted lesbian too though, is it also just from visual cues or do you know something the rest of us don't?

Defending Ted eh? Well lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

No I don't know what the woman looks like. I don't need to know what she looks like. That's my whole point.

It doesn't fucking matter.

As the Chief Executive of Hawaii she has exercised her perogative to veto a bill. Why not discuss the reasons surrounding her use of the negative voice rather than making shitty references to her appearence?

Let's consider the substance of the matter:

HONOLULU – Hawaii's governor ended months of speculation by vetoing  contentious civil unions  legislation that would have granted gay, lesbian and opposite-sex couples the same rights and benefits that the state provides to married couples.

Republican Gov. Linda Lingle's action on Tuesday came on the final day she had to either sign or veto the bill, which was approved by the Legislature in late April.

The measure would have made Hawaii one of six states that essentially grant the rights of marriage to same-sex couples without authorizing marriage itself. Five other states and the District of Columbia permit same-sex marriage.

Lingle said voters should decide the fate of civil unions, not politicians.

"The subject of this legislation has touched the hearts and minds of our citizens as no other social issue of our day," she said. "It would be a mistake to allow a decision of this magnitude to be made by one individual or a small group of elected officials."

(link)

Sounds pretty dykey to me.

MtD

[Dachshund]

regardless of the fact that she's a woman or potentially a lesbian. 

Or maybe one could say, regardless of the fact that he's a man or potentially a redneck. Same logic.

[Boze]

How in the fuck is her appearance the issue?

Whatever we might think of the matter at hand, she is the duly elected Governor of Hawaii. It is her constitutional perogative to veto a bill presented to her by the state legislature.

Do either of you post or even link to the Governor's comments surrounding her exercise of the negative voice?

No, not a bit of it. All we get is the same tired old mysogynisitic crap. She looks butch therefore she must be a dyke therefore she must be wrong.

MtD

It's called IRONY. One would not expect a gay person to veto a bill allowing gay unions. That's all.

[Matty the Damned]

It's called IRONY. One would not expect a gay person to veto a bill allowing gay unions. That's all.

SIgh.

Let me explain this carefully for you Bozie. What we have here is a clear cut case of misogyny.

The Governor of Hawaii has vetoed a bill concerning civil unions for same sex couples. Rather than comment on the substance of the issue, Ted, Madbrain and the other one have decided to pass reference to the Governors physical appearance which they believe suggests she is a lesbian.

This is called misogyny.

MtD

[Boze]

I think same comment could be made if the govnor was a male queen. Point is not that she is a woman, but gay (in their eyes, I have no idea what she looks like). I see the irony, surprised you don't.

One can either respect her for it or detest, based on own views I guess.

[leatherman]

This is called misogyny.

what's it called in this other thread then (National Manhole Awareness Month) when people are suggesting that the US Rep from Illinois is a "she"/gay? Looks like the same type of prejudisim to me which has nothing to do with gender (ie misogyny) and everything to do with gay stereotyping (ie gaydar )

[bocker3]

Oh come on Matty you know that's not what he said, you added a little flare there don't you think?  On the basis of her appearance he thought she might be a lesbian.  That's not a good thing or bad thing, it's just a neutral statement that he thought he was able to figure out her sexuality from her appearance.  He could also be wrong.

Actually, it is rationalizations like this that make discrimination so very hard to eradicate.  I submit that this was NOT a neutral comment.  The fact that stereotypes may be based in truth does NOT grant a pass to throwing out the label in a situation where it matters not.  In my view, she was wrong to veto it -- she would be wrong if she were a straight woman, a bi woman or a lesbian.  For that matter it would still be wrong in my view if she were a man -- gay, straight or bi.  Discrimination is wrong -- that is why I think she was wrong.  No need to bring in any physical attribute to buttress my position (which is, I believe, MtD's entire point).

Mike

[Matty the Damned]

Actually, it is rationalizations like this that make discrimination so very hard to eradicate.  I submit that this was NOT a neutral comment.  The fact that stereotypes may be based in truth does NOT grant a pass to throwing out the label in a situation where it matters not.  In my view, she was wrong to veto it -- she would be wrong if she were a straight woman, a bi woman or a lesbian.  For that matter it would still be wrong in my view if she were a man -- gay, straight or bi.  Discrimination is wrong -- that is why I think she was wrong.  No need to bring in any physical attribute to buttress my position (which is, I believe, MtD's entire point).

Mike

This is precisely what I mean. It's good to hear someone else say it, because for a moment there, I was concerned I was losing my shit.

Of course Governor Lingle was wrong to veto the bill, but she did so legitimately and with a reasonable rationale. But did that get referred to here? No, rather we indulged ourselves with a back and forth about what a big ugly crack-snacker she might be.

I'd go on but I'm too fucking angry. And none of us want Matty the Damned to post in anger.

MtD

[leatherman]

The fact that stereotypes may be based in truth does NOT grant a pass to throwing out the label in a situation where it matters not.

of course it might matter. very often here in america we find some of the most outspoken anti-homosexual crusaders and legislators are themselves homosexual. this could very well be yet another one of incidents.

[Boze]

I call bullshit on PC brigade. If people want to pass judgments or make snide comments about (one of their own, don't forget), let them do it. That's called the anti-dentite prerogative (as per Seinfeld episode).
Discrimination would be to say - she is a woman / lesbo, so unfit to be a govnor. Making fun of her is not.
I am only butting in because I hate unwarranted pc, my views on this issue are not pertinent.

[BlueMoon]

  Is it just me, or does she look like a big lesbian herself?

I can't tell.  She's no Janet Reno, or Elena Kagan for that matter.

[Ann]

It's not just you. She is a closeted lesbian.

So is that your personal opinion or do you have something to back your statement up? I hope so, because your statement sure stinks of misogyny. You too, Ted.

Discrimination would be to say - she is a woman / lesbo, so unfit to be a govnor. Making fun of her is not.

I hope you realise that the term "lesbo" is offensive. And making fun of someone because you perceive them to be gay or lesbian IS discrimination.

[Boze]

I hope you realise that the term "lesbo" is offensive. And making fun of someone because you perceive them to be gay or lesbian IS discrimination.

Lesbo is  a shorthand, don't see why its offensive, just because it's colloquial form of lesbian.

They made fun of her because she vetoed a gay-friendly act. Hence her being gay is relevant. They didn't say - oh look at that big lesbian govnor of Hawaii, hahaha.

[Hellraiser]

Lesbo is  a shorthand, don't see why its offensive, just because it's colloquial form of lesbian.

They made fun of her because she vetoed a gay-friendly act. Hence her being gay is relevant. They didn't say - oh look at that big lesbian govnor of Hawaii, hahaha.

Lesbo is actually kind of offensive although when it comes to being offended it doesn't matter how it happens only if it happens, at which point you're left with the solution of apologizing.  That is if you care that you offended someone.

The crux of this biscuit is getting lost in this thread.

Ted would not have brought up the fact that he thought she looked like a lesbian if she had veto'd any bill not dealing with LGBT rights.  I would assume that he doesn't question her ability as a governor because she is a lesbian or a governor or white or any other classically discriminated against checkbox.  He just made a sidelong comment that "Hey she looks like a lot of the lesbians I've deal with before which in my experience leads me to believe that she might be one, so the fact that she's vetoing a bill that would benefit lesbians seems odd".

The same could be said in the other thread where the congressman wore some...bright clothing.  He looks like a lot of gay men I've seen before I would figure he's probably gay.  Considering I haven't personally slept with him or seen him sleep with another man makes that a guess based on appearance alone.  Whether anyone likes it or not you make assumptions about people based on their appearance on a daily basis.  Is it right?  Not necessarily.  Is it true?  There is absolutely no guarantee.  Is it discrimination?  Not unless you use those snap judgments against them.

[Ann]

Lesbo is  a shorthand, don't see why its offensive, just because it's colloquial form of lesbian.

It's like calling a gay man a faggot. I'm bi, and I definitely take offense. None of the bi or lesbian women I know like the term either.

They made fun of her because she vetoed a gay-friendly act. Hence her being gay is relevant. They didn't say - oh look at that big lesbian govnor of Hawaii, hahaha.

Ted did.

Is it just me, or does she look like a big lesbian herself?

Ted would not have brought up the fact that he thought she looked like a lesbian if she had veto'd any bill not dealing with LGBT rights.

So you can read Ted's mind?

I have not found one shred of evidence that shows this woman is a lesbian, but I have found evidence that she's straight. And for the record, I don't think she looks like a lesbian, big or otherwise. She just looks like an not particularly attractive middle-aged woman.

[leatherman]

because your statement sure stinks of misogyny.

no, it's not about her being a woman (ie misogyny). You and Matty are so off the mark. It's about her perhaps being homosexual and voting anti-homosexual. Sheesh. Who's worried that she's female? Would you have preferred and understood it better if Ted has said, "Is it just me, or does she look like a big homosexual herself?"

Of course, you people that live outside of America may not understand that many people in America with an anti-homosexual agenda tend to turn up as self-hating homosexuals. If you can understand that, then it shouldn't be too broad of a stretch for you to understand that people might have misgivings about another person with an anti-homosexual agenda. It really is the same thing as in the other thread about another homophobic legislator. You even pointed it out yourself Ann.

Hmm... this reminds me of a discussion in another thread about an American politician who allegedly looks like a lesbian.
Don't judge a book by it's cover. Jeeze.

rather than claiming the comments by Ted and others are misogynistic, the most you should be saying is don't judge a book by it's cover - even if some people's "gaydar" is going off. LOL

[Joe K]

Lesbo is  a shorthand, don't see why its offensive, just because it's colloquial form of lesbian.

They made fun of her because she vetoed a gay-friendly act. Hence her being gay is relevant. They didn't say - oh look at that big lesbian govnor of Hawaii, hahaha.

You just don't get it. Lesbo is not shorthand for lesbian, it is a derogatory label, the same kind of label as fagot and the only purpose they serve is to demean the person(s) they are referencing. The whole issue centers on labeling someone, when that label has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Now, if she had referenced something either personal or religious, as a basis of her veto, then those views become relevant, otherwise it's just mud slinging under a different name.

And Boze, contrary to popular belief, there is no international gay organization that issues either toaster ovens nor membership cards. If she is a lesbian, that does not make her "one of my kind", just because we may share the same sexuality. So many of the comments here (intended or not ) are meant to demean another human being, over traits or perceptions, that are totally irrelevant to the subject at hand. Yes , her veto might be ironic, if we knew, for a fact that she is a lesbian, but we do not. Therefore any comments about her appearance or perceived sexuality can only be meant to demean her, in the eyes of others.

[Hellraiser]

Last post for me as this thread is doing nothing but dredging up hard feelings.

Thinking someone is a lesbian doesn't mean you think poorly of them.

[Matty the Damned]

Last post for me as this thread is doing nothing but dredging up hard feelings.

Thinking someone is a lesbian doesn't mean you think poorly of them.

It's not that you think she's a lesbian, it's that you and others choose to use such a label to dismiss her actions in office.

MtD

[BT65]

Now, look at Tednlou's avvy.  Doesn't he look like a big ol' snarly snake?

[Ann]

Now, look at Tednlou's avvy.  Doesn't he look like a big ol' snarly snake?

Betty, that's a personal attack. You're pulling yourself down to the level of those who use words like "lesbo". Don't do it again and yes, this is a warning.

[skeebo1969]

I don't think he meant it as an insult.  As for stereotypes the thing about them is although they may be a little offensive...they are generally true.  People notice patterns and people with similar traits sometimes share a pattern.  He was observing that in his experience she looks or acts somewhat like other lesbians he's known.

You have got to be kidding me Trey.  You know it was this same kind of thinking that  pretty much severed all ties for me with my own family because of who I chose to love.  It's fucking disrespectful and ignorant thinking at best, and it's a process generally held by those who are racist.

You know, fuck me I say it all the time...  People really do not understand MLK's I had a dream speech, it's not that he wanted black and white children the ability to play together, no.  What he wanted was for them to play together without noticing who was black and who was white.  Trey, you do understand the difference, right?

[Boze]

You just don't get it. Lesbo is not shorthand for lesbian, it is a derogatory label, the same kind of label as fagot and the only purpose they serve is to demean the person(s) they are referencing. The whole issue centers on labeling someone, when that label has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Now, if she had referenced something either personal or religious, as a basis of her veto, then those views become relevant, otherwise it's just mud slinging under a different name.

And Boze, contrary to popular belief, there is no international gay organization that issues either toaster ovens nor membership cards. If she is a lesbian, that does not make her "one of my kind", just because we may share the same sexuality. So many of the comments here (intended or not ) are meant to demean another human being, over traits or perceptions, that are totally irrelevant to the subject at hand. Yes , her veto might be ironic, if we knew, for a fact that she is a lesbian, but we do not. Therefore any comments about her appearance or perceived sexuality can only be meant to demean her, in the eyes of others.

Fine, i am happy to use lsb as a shorthand that hopefully doesn't offend anyone, which is not my intent.

On the second paragraph - I think we disagree on it. I think membership of any group confers the right to make fun or belittle members of the group. There was a whole Seinfeld episode about it - hence the andi-dentite joke reference. You know it - half the jokes here would cause uproar if said by a straight comic

I actually understand her reasoning - that the issue should be decided by voters and not legislature. So if she were gay, she can actually get respect  for doing what she thought was right rather than what her background would dictate. (I want to make it clear that I am not saying whether this reasoning is right or wrong - only that she did what she thought was right). But we can clearly see the dichotomy between what a gay politician would be expected to do and what she did - I think that was the point raised originally.

[Ann]

Fine, i am happy to use lsb as a shorthand that hopefully doesn't offend anyone, which is not my intent.

Why do you feel the need to use shorthand? It's not like lesbian is a huge word, it's only seven letters. Who the heck is going to know what you're on about if you use lsb?

[BT65]

I think membership of any group confers the right to make fun or belittle members of the group.

"Membership of any group?"  Seriously?

[bocker3]

of course it might matter. very often here in america we find some of the most outspoken anti-homosexual crusaders and legislators are themselves homosexual. this could very well be yet another one of incidents.

You need not lecture me about what "we find" "here in america" -- I've lived here my whole life -- even put my life on the line for her back in 1991, so please spare me your paternalistic mumbling.

However, she doesn't claim to be a lesbian, there is nothing I've read to show that she is a lesbian, so your point is moot.  IF she were a lesbian, it would stand, but none of us can make that call from where we sit.  This is the point that is lost here in all this insane wrangling to accomodate a misogynistic/homophobic remark (that may have been unintentional, but that doesn't excuse it either).

Mike

[Boze]

"Membership of any group?"  Seriously?

Isn't that obvious? If you are a member of the group you are allowed to make fun of it - since you can't be blamed for bigotry. As an example -  Chris Rock and Bill Cosby can say stuff no white comic can and that white trash comedian with "you know you are a hick if ..." monologue.

Why do you feel the need to use shorthand? It's not like lesbian is a huge word, it's only seven letters. Who the heck is going to know what you're on about if you use lsb?

That's true. I'm just annoyed that it's now an offensive word since it's actually where the word lesbian comes from - the island Lesbos. Isn't it simple - lesbos come from Lesbos?

[bocker3]

I'm just annoyed that it's now an offensive word since it's actually where the word lesbian comes from - the island Lesbos. Isn't it simple - lesbos come from Lesbos?

Probably a lot of lesbians who are annoyed at being called a "lesbo" -- why don't you stop being so self--centered for a minute.  Words that are derogatory to someone else have nothing to do with your feelings.  The problem is actually crystal clear in the fact that you are so "annoyed" over this.   

Mike

[Ann]

Probably a lot of lesbians who are annoyed at being called a "lesbo" -- why don't you stop being so self--centered for a minute.  Words that are derogatory to someone else have nothing to do with your feelings.  The problem is actually crystal clear in the fact that you are so "annoyed" over this.   

Mike

Thanks, Mike, you're spot-on.

The last time I heard someone call a lesbian a lesbo, he was nearly lynched by her and her mates. IT IS A DEROGATORY TERM whether you like it or not, Boze. So stop trying to justify yourself and learn the lesson.

[tednlou2]

My God, really?  My comment has caused all this?  When certain lawmakers voted against gay rights, no one here thought they seemed or looked gay?  Until facts came out, everyone was totally in the dark and didn't have an opinion on their sexuality when most of them set off your gaydars?  If they did set of your gaydar, you kept your opinion to yourself because it seemed inappropriate to say whether you think someone is gay?  No one had an opinion about Larry Craig or Mark Foley before the facts came out?  If I said I thought they looked like gay men 5 year ago, you would say the same thing?     

Again, I didn't mean anything derogatory against lesbians.  I feel she looks like a lesbian to me.  That is my opinion.  I know many people have suspected the same about her.  I've talked about my partner's sister in law who claims to be straight but I believe is a closeted lesbian.  She sets off my gaydar and that is my opinion.  Am I not allowed to voice my opinion that I think she's gay?   

Is the problem that I used the word "big" in front of lesbian?  Does that make it sound worse than my intent?  I would refer you to "Will & Grace" where "Jack" tells "Beverly Leslie", "You look like a big mo yourself."  Did anyone write letters to NBC?  When Ellen was still in the closet, would it be wrong to say she looks like a lesbian?  Rosie?  Ricky Martin?  Sean Hayes?  Elton John?  By saying I thought all these people looked gay to me, was I saying they were somehow bad people?  Couldn't perform their jobs?

I believe the HI governor looks like a lesbian to me.  I could be totally wrong, but it is my opinion.  I felt RNC Chairman Ken Mehlman was gay.  After my suspicions, Bill Maher said on Larry King that it is an open secret in Washington that he is gay.  By the rules of many, I would be a "dog" or "snake" for saying I thought he was gay.  I honestly don't understand all the fuss over my off-hand remark.  Many in these forums make stereotypical remarks about gay men all the time--that we like certain sex, are into certain designers, into certain drugs and music.  Many would find that offensive I suppose. 

Having said all this, I will truly reflect on what I said and try to see things from your point of view.  I'm serious---not being a smart-ass.     

[edfu]

we indulged ourselves with a back and forth about what a big ugly crack-snacker she might be.

I don't understand....  How is this not much less acceptable usage than "lesbo"? 

[Ann]

I don't understand....  How is this not much less acceptable usage than "lesbo"? 

It's called irony.

[Boze]

Probably a lot of lesbians who are annoyed at being called a "lesbo" -- why don't you stop being so self--centered for a minute.  Words that are derogatory to someone else have nothing to do with your feelings.  The problem is actually crystal clear in the fact that you are so "annoyed" over this.   

Mike

It's not about me being self-centered - it's about the logic or lack of thereof imho. What if lesbians tomorrow decide that 'lesbian' is derogatory and start being offended and demand to be called something else?

The word lesbian comes from the greek island Lesbos where this practice supposedly started. Hence lesbo is a root of the word. It may not be as respectful as the longer-sounding 'lesbian' but derogatory? I can see how 'dyke' is derogatory - as is confirmed by a dictionary. I can't find any reference to Lesbo being defined as derogatory on the web.

[bocker3]

It's not about me being self-centered - it's about the logic or lack of thereof imho. What if lesbians tomorrow decide that 'lesbian' is derogatory and start being offended and demand to be called something else?

The word lesbian comes from the greek island Lesbos where this practice supposedly started. Hence lesbo is a root of the word. It may not be as respectful as the longer-sounding 'lesbian' but derogatory? I can see how 'dyke' is derogatory - as is confirmed by a dictionary. I can't find any reference to Lesbo being defined as derogatory on the web.

Really??  you just dig deeper and deeper while trying to rationalize your nonesense.  "where this practice started" 
Clearly you either can not see what the issue is here or you simply choose not to see it.  Yes, Lesbos has a good deal of history around lesbians and did lend its name to the term, but that still doesn't make it right to call them lesbos.  Just because you can't find it on the internet doesn't make it untrue -- anymore than seeing something on the internet making it true.  Your repeated defense of your action is just showing your ignorance.

And......   if lesbians decided that they didn't want to be called lesbians -- than it would only be proper to stop calling them that. 
Your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to what someone else finds derogatory.  Why are you even fighting this fact??  You make absolutely no sense to me.

Mike

[nixsmail]

well said mike, i don't really think that you could find "proof" or "no proof" anywhere of things that people perceive as derogatory. maybe boze also considers fag or faggot to be not derogatory as well. seems to me it fits in the same class he's trying to make.

[Miss Philicia]

I've never considered the n-word derogatory because there's a river called that in Africa, just with one less "g" to confuse everyone.  Well, they're not fooling me!

[Hellraiser]

I've never considered the n-word derogatory because there's a river called that in Africa, just with one less "g" to confuse everyone.  Well, they're not fooling me!

Nipple?

[Boze]

Really??  you just dig deeper and deeper while trying to rationalize your nonesense.  "where this practice started" 
Clearly you either can not see what the issue is here or you simply choose not to see it.  Yes, Lesbos has a good deal of history around lesbians and did lend its name to the term, but that still doesn't make it right to call them lesbos.  Just because you can't find it on the internet doesn't make it untrue -- anymore than seeing something on the internet making it true.  Your repeated defense of your action is just showing your ignorance.

And......   if lesbians decided that they didn't want to be called lesbians -- than it would only be proper to stop calling them that. 
Your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to what someone else finds derogatory.  Why are you even fighting this fact??  You make absolutely no sense to me.

Mike

A lot of words, not a lot of sense. I asked - why is lesbo derogatory if it's simply the root of the word. Your only explanation - because lesbians find it so. Moreover - you can't provide any prooflink to your view, so then 'anything on the internet isn't really a source because i can't back my words up with it'.

I don't care so much about this word in particular - just fed up with PC where everybody is always offended. You're not even a woman and you're offended.

Those who want to know why nigger is derogatory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger#Etymology_and_history

faggot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(slang)#Etymology

dyke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyke_(slang)

I'm not saying there is a 'proof' - only asking why if there is no mention of this anywhere, why do I have to take someone's word with no explanation?

[skeebo1969]

I've never considered the n-word derogatory because there's a river called that in Africa, just with one less "g" to confuse everyone.  Well, they're not fooling me!

The Nile?  

[skeebo1969]

A lot of words, not a lot of sense. I asked - why is lesbo derogatory if it's simply the root of the word. Your only explanation - because lesbians find it so. Moreover - you can't provide any prooflink to your view, so then 'anything on the internet isn't really a source because i can't back my words up with it'.

I don't care so much about this word in particular - just fed up with PC where everybody is always offended. You're not even a woman and you're offended.

Those who want to know why nigger is derogatory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger#Etymology_and_history

faggot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(slang)#Etymology

dyke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyke_(slang)

I'm not saying there is a 'proof' - only asking why if there is no mention of this anywhere, why do I have to take someone's word with no explanation?

So if it doesn't bother you it shouldn't bother anyone else, eh? 

[GSOgymrat]

Boze, you may not like the fact that some people find a term offensive but you can't tell them they shouldn't feel offended. You can say you don't care if they are offended, you can tell them that you didn't mean to offend, but you can't tell them how to feel. If a lesbian says she find that term offensive the polite thing to do is apologize, not argue the point.

[Hellraiser]

Boze, you may not like the fact that some people find a term offensive but you can't tell them they shouldn't feel offended. You can say you don't care if they are offended, you can tell them that you didn't mean to offend, but you can't tell them how to feel. If a lesbian says she find that term offensive the polite thing to do is apologize, not argue the point.

Precisely.  Also why am I posting in this thread again?

[Miss Philicia]

A lot of words, not a lot of sense.

Is it OK if I place this in my siggy line as a quote?

[Boze]

Boze, you may not like the fact that some people find a term offensive but you can't tell them they shouldn't feel offended. You can say you don't care if they are offended, you can tell them that you didn't mean to offend, but you can't tell them how to feel. If a lesbian says she find that term offensive the polite thing to do is apologize, not argue the point.

I guess the reason it's offensive is the perceived 'lack of respect'. Most minorities are not happy if they are called by any term that's is not exactly their preferred nomenclature.

I see it now and apologize if anyone took offense.

[Boze]

Is it OK if I place this in my siggy line as a quote?

By all means!

[anniebc]

Overweight, lots of flannel, and a mullet.

Ummmm..

All these years and I never knew..

Ah well I'm off down the pub now to down a few tinnies, see ya later.
Hugs
Jan

[madbrain]

SIgh.

Let me explain this carefully for you Bozie. What we have here is a clear cut case of misogyny.

The Governor of Hawaii has vetoed a bill concerning civil unions for same sex couples. Rather than comment on the substance of the issue, Ted, Madbrain and the other one have decided to pass reference to the Governors physical appearance which they believe suggests she is a lesbian.

This is called misogyny.

MtD

My comment wasn't based on appearance. I heard on the TV program gay usa that she was a closeted lesbian. This wasn't my opinion, just something I was reporting. That program didn't have any pictures of her, just commentary. I didn't actually see what she looked like until after this thread when I googled her.

Anyway, it's too bad this thread went off topic.

The judge's ruling is a very interesting one. Now it remains to be seen whether the administration will appeal it, and whether it will apply to anyone other than the original parties who sued.

[Cliff]

I guess the reason it's offensive is the perceived 'lack of respect'. Most minorities are not happy if they are called by any term that's is not exactly their preferred nomenclature.

I see it now and apologize if anyone took offense.

And the award for the forum's most passive-aggressive, non-apology apology goes to...

[Boze]

And the award for the forum's most passive-aggressive, non-apology apology goes to...

Should I call the Jesse Jackson equivalent of lesbians?

[skeebo1969]

Should I call the Jesse Jackson equivalent of lesbians?

One step forward and two steps back, good stuff Bozo!

[Miss Philicia]

All these years and I never knew..

I don't recall seeing you as overweight in person my dear.  And that's not a proper mullet you sport, though it's a bit Park Slope Brooklyn lesbian circa 1989, but they all copied it from Geraldine Ferraro.

[BlueMoon]

I don't understand....  How is this not much less acceptable usage than "lesbo"? 

I don't know about that, but it's apparently ok to refer to Americans as Yanks and Seppos (septic tanks).

[Ann]

I don't know about that, but it's apparently ok to refer to Americans as Yanks and Seppos (septic tanks).

I get called "the Yank" all the time and it's almost like some people think it's my last name. It doesn't bother me in the least.

But call me a lesbo and you're gonna piss me off big time. I have to admit I don't mind dyke, provided it's not said in a nasty context/tone of voice where it's obvious it's being used as an insult. Most of the gay women I know don't mind dyke either, again provided it's not being used to insult.

[Matty the Damned]

I don't know about that, but it's apparently ok to refer to Americans as Yanks and Seppos (septic tanks).

"Yank" (never "yankee") you'll have to live with. It's not a perjorative. It's simply what we call youse. Just like we call the English "poms". Also, we don't make the distinction between north and south, so to us a Cajun is as much a yank as a New Englander.

As far as we're concerned, you all piss in the same pot.

Speaking of pots which are pissed in, "seppo" (as you have noted) is the shortened version of the Australian rhyming slang "septic tank" (it rhymes with "yank" geddit?), and also doesn't carry any particularly negative connotation these days. I believe it originated during WWII when it wasn't considered the nicest of labels.

Though I can appreciate how the targets of that particular appellation might be slightly less than gruntled. It does lack a certain glamour.

MtD

[BlueMoon]

I get called "the Yank" all the time and it's almost like some people think it's my last name. It doesn't bother me in the least.

But call me a lesbo and you're gonna piss me off big time. I have to admit I don't mind dyke, provided it's not said in a nasty context/tone of voice where it's obvious it's being used as an insult. Most of the gay women I know don't mind dyke either, again provided it's not being used to insult.

I don't take offense that easily.  The purpose of my post was to agree with Edfu about the blatant hypocrisy that derailed the thread.

[Matty the Damned]

I don't take offense that easily.  The purpose of my post was to agree with Edfu about the blatant hypocrisy that derailed the thread.

Hypocrisy is the stuff that power the internets, without it we'd all be bored senseless.

MtD

[Hellraiser]

I call anyone born north of the Mason-Dixon line a yankee, and rightfully so.

[Miss Philicia]

I call anyone born south of the Mason-Dixon line a unrepentant racist, and rightfully so.

[skeebo1969]

I call anyone born south of the Mason-Dixon line a unrepentant racist, and rightfully so.

I hope your central air takes a dump tonight.

[Miss Philicia]

I hope your central air takes a dump tonight.

Fret not -- areas from Orlando southward are grouped with the Caribbean basin, not Dixie, due to the high volume of foreskin.

[Matty the Damned]

Fret not -- areas from Orlando southward are grouped with the Caribbean basin, not Dixie, due to the high volume of foreskin.

So what are you washing the klonnies down with tonight? Paint thinner or nail polish remover?

MtD

[Miss Philicia]

So what are you washing the klonnies down with tonight? Paint thinner or nail polish remover?

MtD

No klonnies tonight, I'm getting high from the smell of my arm pits.

[Matty the Damned]

No klonnies tonight, I'm getting high from the smell of my arm pits.

Ah. Diesel straight from the pump. How butch.

MtD

[Hellraiser]

I call anyone born south of the Mason-Dixon line a unrepentant racist, and rightfully so.

This is so untrue I'm not unrepentant.

(yes I'm kidding before anyone gets their panties in a wad)

[mecch]

I gave a course in Taboo language a few years ago.  With the rise of Internet, mobile communications, "text speak" and ever more casual and clipped ways of communicating, many young people don't bother or don't even know how to switch registers - adjusting speech to the situation and people present.  Unfortunately I gave the course in a elite university and the students didn't need it much. I proposed it to the public high school ("gymase") and the administration was horrified! shocked! by the contents.

After a certain age, and if you want to contribute to something so mixed up as a global Internet discussion forum, you've got to learn some respect.

Boze, if you can't figure out that "lesbo" might offend, you might want to watch this documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCDE-gWqIWQ&feature=related