POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: 404error on December 06, 2007, 05:44:06 pm
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Are prostitutes an acceptable way to go in terms of having sex without feeling any obligation to disclose HIV status? "Legally" one isn't entirely required to disclose in Canada provided that you use a condom and from what I understand prostitutes are adamant about using condoms for vaginal, anal and even oral sex. I think that would leave me pretty well covered in terms of having lowered the risk of transmission. I'm just over two years with no sex and really don't want to go even another week. I've had mixed responses on this from friends. Some say sure, STI's are an occupational hazard of sex trade workers and others say it's exploitative of those who are already being exploited enough. I'm seriously fucking sick and tired of jerking off.
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Surely you aren't implying that prostitutes "deserve what they get". Because you are on a slippery slope with that thinking. If thats how you feel, then it follows that you deserve to be HIV positive. You dont really want to go that route do you?
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Surely you aren't implying that prostitutes "deserve what they get".
Where did "I" suggest that they deserve what they get? I said "some of my friends" felt that STI's were an occupational hazard associated with being a sex trade worker. I didn't say anything of the sort. If you're going to reply to a topic at least make it relevant rather than accuse people of saying things they clearly did not.
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quote you....."Are prostitutes an acceptable way to go in terms of having sex without feeling any obligation to disclose HIV status? "
Oh so what does this sound like, huh? You sure seem to be thinking that prostitutes are second class citizens and dont deserve to be treated with respect.
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Well, I think that in terms of prostitutes they are there to have sex in exchange for money. Not in exchange for personality, ideas, honest and open communication, etc. They are there to take your money so you in turn can have sex with them. That's it. That is what I'm saying about prostitues. It is a business transaction wherein they are providing a service to a customer who is providing them with cash so it isn't at all the same sort of relationship with the same sort of requirements as a proper relationship. One where you are honest and open with someone because you see a future, you share a connection of some kind, a connection based on who you are, what you do, how you live, etc. Not how much you are willing to spend by the hour.
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Joel,
He's just baiting you. Ignore him.
MtD
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Oh, right.
So hes just being a jerk?
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I just always thought that prostitutes were there so you didn't have to go through all the same stuff you do with a regular person in whom you are interested. I thought that was the point of the cash transaction, to buy your way out of talking about your feelings, your day, your life in general and get straight to the sex. Then as soon as the sex is done you get dressed and leave. Hell, you don't even need to know eachothers names since it's all about two things; money and sex.
And I'm not being a jerk. I'm giving my viewpoint and asking questions. Nothing more. If you disagree with me that doesn't make me a jerk, it makes my opinion different from yours.
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Oh, right.
So hes just being a jerk?
Pretty much. Check out everything else he posts. You'll note a common theme.
MtD
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Well, I think that in terms of prostitutes they are there to have sex in exchange for money. Not in exchange for personality, ideas, honest and open communication, etc. They are there to take your money so you in turn can have sex with them. That's it.
They are still women (and men) with health and livelihoods to protect. Fact of the matter is, you're having a sexual encounter with them and they don't deserve any less respect simply because money is changing hands.
Ask yourself this: would you disclose to a someone you met socially -- in a bar, perhaps -- and plan on nothing more than a quick roll in the hay? Even if condoms were used? If you answer yes here, I think you'd also disclose to a sex worker.
I'm sorry you're feeling so sexually frustrated. Perhaps this is something you need to work on, not simply search for a sex worker you can bone without any sense of personal moral obligation. Again, I'm not saying you should disclose (I honestly do believe this is a personal choice)... but that you should simply extend the same courtesy to the sex worker as you would to someone who doesn't trade money for sex.
Tim Horn
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Hmmm, well isn't this topic interesting.....Basically, you feel that you don't have to disclose to a prostitute because of what she/he does....I am just making sure I am understanding you right,404...Now in my mind, I would think it would be easier to disclose to a prostitute. Depending on your locale, I would think, most especially in major cities, would be a little more understanding considering they have to deal with all the other STD's out there. Not to say they would agree to deal with you despite you having money. But I also don't see a prostitute giving you a list of all the stds they have had or currently has.
In the case of a prostitute, I would be more willing to tell them the truth because of the fact you are more than likely not going to see them again and the fact that they deal with a slew of other people. I am not saying you shouldn't disclose to someone in a relationship, just that (to me) it would be harder to. But in either case, you may be left with your dick in your hands....
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Well, I've had three near opportunities to have sex since being diagnosed. One was with a girl at the bar but I just couldn't do it. That was pretty early into my diagnosis and still was mind fucked about it all so in retrospect that came as no suprise. The second was with a friend I hadn't seen in a couple years. She texted me out of the blue for a booty call. She came over and when we were about to do it I couldn't. I felt like my heart was going to explode right out of my chest, she even asked if I was alright because she could hear it. The final time was with a girl who told me in confidence before going any further that she had herpes and felt the need to tell me. I told her that was okay and she seemed so happy with that. The next day I told her about about being HIV positive and that was the end of that. I just wanna have sex, that's it. I don't even care if it's with a girlfriend or someone I love or care about, I just want to have sex again so much so that I'm even willing to pay for it and I've never had to do that before.
Basically, you feel that you don't have to disclose to a prostitute because of what she/he does
Exactly. Because they are having sex strictly for money I feel that it our personal lives have nothing to do with it. Hell, she could have Hep's A, B and C, syphillis, chlamydia as well as full blown AIDS. I'm not gonna ask because that's not why I'm there.
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So, in other words you just don't want to waste a nut by jacking off but needs to feel some physical contact? Why don't you set your sights on trying to find a poz woman? I'm sure that has crossed your mind. You can have a relationship (or define one), bust a nut, and save your money....
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Are you talking about protected sex 404?
Personally, I don't think I'd want to have unprotected sex with a sex worker who didn't insist on taking every precaution.
(edited to add that I wholeheartedly agree with what Tim wrote above.)
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Of course I'm talking protected sex. I'm not gonna go unwrapped with some hooker. Hell, since I'm poz I'll probably never have unprotected sex again in my life.
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I was assuming he was talking about protected sex...So, if a worker told you that she had hep A,B,C or whatever, you'd still be willing to have sex with her? And even if she didn't tell you, what if the condom broke or slipped off in her? I dunno, I guess I am just rambling now but you still didn't answer my last post....Just saying...
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Why don't you set your sights on trying to find a poz woman? I'm sure that has crossed your mind. You can have a relationship (or define one), bust a nut, and save your money....
I've tried, there aren't many I've come across in this part of the country and those I have were anything but appealing. You remember the girls I described in the other thread? That's what I'm used to dating, I don't want to settle for less. I'd rather be single and banging prostitutes than settling for something less than what I'm interested in. I'd just end up resenting the girl after a while and that wouldn't be fair to either of us.
So, if a worker told you that she had hep A,B,C or whatever, you'd still be willing to have sex with her? And even if she didn't tell you, what if the condom broke or slipped off in her?
I doubt a prostitute is going tell you if she has any STD's. She in the business of making money in exchange for sex. Disclosing one's diseases is detrimental to posting a profit within that industry. Like I said, I'm also not going to ask. If the condom broke, I'd put on another one and finish up. I wouldn't worry about it slippling off, that's never been a problem.
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I was assuming he was talking about protected sex...So, if a worker told you that she had hep A,B,C or whatever, you'd still be willing to have sex with her? And even if she didn't tell you, what if the condom broke or slipped off in her? I dunno, I guess I am just rambling now but you still didn't answer my last post....Just saying...
I don't think you are rambling at all. Throughout history the underlying assumption between people engaged in transactional sex has been that neither party can be trusted to tell the truth. Its always been strictly business and when we do business, its caveat emptor, babe. The same goes for the seller. Neither the prostitute nor his/her patron has ever had the right to expect the truth. And If you disclose to a prostitute you might as well send out a press release; likewise, any hooker who says, "come on in, lover, but sorry about the bugs in there", would put herself out of business pretty quickly.
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For now I'll put aside my personal issues with thinking one should not have to pay for sex....
I would sure hate to come up with some extra H's on my medical chart. Herpes Hepatitis ect.
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I would sure hate to come up with some extra H's on my medical chart. Herpes Hepatitis ect.
Exactly! It scares the heck out of me.
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404, right off I see you getting yourself into difficulties here with some of your terminology, specifically "prostitute" and "hooker." Those are words which are outdated these days. "Sex worker" is the term commonly used nowadays because it identifies someone without the pejorative tone which those older nouns have attached to them.
This is not mere semantics. Yes, the client and the sex worker have a business arrangment. Just like other for hire arrangements. You do this work and you get this pay for it.
Contrary to your description, because of the physically intimate nature of the transaction I don't see the relationship being quite as cut and dried as you have described. Nor do I agree that it does not have certain elements that are present in "civilian" relationships.
So I would caution you and suggest you re-consider your attitude as expressed in what you've written.
Ultimately I see it requiring the same degree of respect on your part which hopefully you would express in any relationship.
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Lastly I want to say there is an inflammatory potential built into this thread so I am requesting respondents not rise to that particular bait.
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I don't think you are rambling at all. Throughout history the underlying assumption between people engaged in transactional sex has been that neither party can be trusted to tell the truth. Its always been strictly business and when we do business, its caveat emptor, babe. The same goes for the seller. Neither the prostitute nor his/her patron has ever had the right to expect the truth. And If you disclose to a prostitute you might as well send out a press release; likewise, any hooker who says, "come on in, lover, but sorry about the bugs in there", would put herself out of business pretty quickly.
You got a point.
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Hello Error
Throughout this thread, you've offered a considerable amount of conjecture about sex workers. I'd like to suggest something. Go shopping and interview a couple.
Buy her a meal or buy an appetizer blow job for yourself. Ask a bunch of questions. Affirm or negate the accuracy of your conjecture. Ain't nothin' like gatherin' empirical data. Go jump in the pool. Splash around. Go ahead.
In the process, you might find someone for whom you'll become a regular. Maybe you could pick a really pretty one (you know, some even have college degrees) who's as close to the first class babes to whom you were accustomed. Kinda like Burger King where you can have it Your Way.
It's also possible you might learn that most sex workers suffered one or more forms of abuse in their lifetime. Addictions are commonplace. The risks are high. Quite often they're a serial murderer's top choice because they're so, well, disposable.
I don't recall any little girl I ever met in grade school, nor woman I met at any other time in my life saying they had their cap set to become a sex worker. It was more often teacher, nurse, wife, mother, biologist, doctor, lawyer, business owner.
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404, right off I see you getting yourself into difficulties here with some of your terminology, specifically "prostitute" and "hooker." Those are words which are outdated these days. "Sex worker" is the term commonly used nowadays because it identifies someone without the pejorative tone which those older nouns have attached to them. This is not mere semantics. Yes, the client and the sex worker have a business arrangment. Just like other for hire arrangements. You do this work and you get this pay for it. Contrary to your description, because of the physically intimate nature of the transaction I don't see the relationship being quite as cut and dried as you have described. Nor do I agree that it does not have certain elements that are present in "civilian" relationships. So I would caution you and suggest you re-consider your attitude as expressed in what you've written. Ultimately I see it requiring the same degree of respect on your part which hopefully you would express in any relationship.
Regarding my terminology, I see where you're coming from, a "politically correct" update to age old terms for the worlds oldest profession. I honestly think it makes no difference and don't see either word I used as derogatory, especially when compared to some other, much harsher terms which I steered well clear of. It's like calling a telemarketer a "Client Interactions Specialist." Sure it sounds better and makes the person doing that job feel a bit better about themselves because they have what they consider to be a more dignified job title but at the end of the day, they're still a telemarketer. I also can't see how you feel sleeping with a "sex trade worker" is an intimate experience. Intimacy isn't about fucking (because let's be honest, you're not making love in this situation.) There's no emotional connection here, from what I understand there is no kissing involved and it isn't a physical expression of the love that two people share. I sort of agree that the girl in question would be deserving of respect. I wouldn't verbally belittle her or physically or psychologically hurt her but I also wouldn't treat her with the same degree respect as a woman I was in a loving, monogamous relationship with. Imagine saying to your husband, wife or life partner "I treat you with the very same respect I treat all people I pay to have sex with me." Respect is earned, not given. If you would pay the same degree of respect to someone in that situation then that's your call and you're entirely free to do so.
Buy her a meal or buy an appetizer blow job for yourself. Ask a bunch of questions. Affirm or negate the accuracy of your conjecture. Ain't nothin' like gatherin' empirical data. Go jump in the pool. Splash around. Go ahead. In the process, you might find someone for whom you'll become a regular. Maybe you could pick a really pretty one (you know, some even have college degrees) who's as close to the first class babes to whom you were accustomed. Kinda like Burger King where you can have it Your Way.
First of all if I'm going to take a girl out to dinner why wouldn't I just take a girl who doesn't perform sex acts in exchange for money if the object of this interaction was casual conversation? Hell I have friends I can do that with. Also I'm not interested in exploring the sociological aspects of the sex trade industry. Who had what kind of upbringing, who does or does not engage in recreational or habitual drug use, who finished grade 10 or who is currently two semesters away from completing a masters thesis, how have these experiences shaped them into who they are today, what sort of psychological impact has this had on them (both leading up to their entry into this profession as well as since they have been in the field.) I just want sex and since I have no real relationship prospects on the horizon I just want to get it on and get out. I've never been this hard up for sex before but this is honestly how I feel. If I had a potential girl, someone I was interested in and knew was interested in me I'd be really happy about that and wouldn't even entertain the thought of paying for sex.
It's also possible you might learn that most sex workers suffered one or more forms of abuse in their lifetime. Addictions are commonplace. The risks are high. Quite often they're a serial murderer's top choice because they're so, well, disposable.
You're absolutely right. There is a well publicized trial going on here at the present. One Robert William Picton is on trial for the murder of six missing downtown eastside sex workers. He is accused of killing over 20 more, grinding them up and feeding them to the pigs on his pig farm. There has even been some speculation that they were making snuff films on the farm as well. It is sick and he is a disgusting human being. The missing girls were all severly addicted to crack, meth or heroin, not that that in anyway excuses what he's done it just serves to illustrate their vulnerability in this situation. Willie Picton is worthless and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
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My work with an HIV charity brings me into close daily contact with sex workers and I can assure you that very few fit the stereotypical image, all are every bit as human as the rest of us and that their clients spend time with them for a whole variety of very complex (and frequently non-sexual) reasons.
Many of them are also highly intelligent, very well educated indeed and are perfectly capable running rings around most of us in any discussion on the meaning of life, the universe and everything.
Show them exactly the same respect and consideration that you would anyone else.
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Show them exactly the same respect and consideration that you would anyone else.
I whole-heartedly second that motion.
Ann
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I thoroughly agree with treating them with respect. Just because they're in the profession they're in, it doesn't mean that they should be treated any different than anyone else you might think about boinking.
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Show them exactly the same respect and consideration that you would anyone else.
404error, you didn't present this post to the forum for permission. You wanted responses and feedback.
Indeed. There's your answer in a nice neat sentence that speaks clearly.
Mike M
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Now that you have gotten some pretty sound advice, 404, what are you going to do? I'm sure there is a sex worker out there waiting on someone just like you...Now remember, nothing beats a condom and a smile.. ;) The condom shows you care and the smile means you're satisfied..... ;D And above all else, treat her like a lady.....
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Subject to what I wrote previously regarding the limitations of transactional sex, I think we all agree that they are entitled to respect.
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Error's stated I sort of agree that the girl in question would be deserving of respect. . Sort of? Sort of? That doesn't engender the concept of treating a sex worker like a lady.
You missed the point of my suggestion to buy a sex worker a meal or have a taste of the trade. You've made lots of guesses as to what it's all about. I was suggesting you go out and do the research---gather empirical data. That you've posted shows uncertainty and you expressed it. And, you also missed my silly attempt to open your young eyes, as Vokz was doing, to enlighten you. You've got a hard edge. I'm sure you're hurting. You no longer want your hand, you want the warmth and sensation of the vagina of a woman.
How about this? New way to view a sex worker with respect. She's the CEO, President and Controller of VagExpress. She's also runs marketing and sales. She's the company health person in charge of condom inventory and the administrative staff in charge of timekeeping and accounting. Oh yes, she's in charge of security, too, which is sometimes a vulnerable division of the firm.
I went back to your first post. Here's the summary of your concerns. Is it okay if I screw a sex worker and not disclose my HIV status? (this is asking permission IMO particularly with concern about legality). And, will I get any STDs? You answered your own questions, too. Overall, you were seeking affirmation from your friends, from us---sometimes a diluted form, an adult version, of seeking permission.
Are prostitutes an acceptable way to go in terms of having sex without feeling any obligation to disclose HIV status? "Legally" one isn't entirely required to disclose in Canada provided that you use a condom and from what I understand prostitutes are adamant about using condoms for vaginal, anal and even oral sex. I think that would leave me pretty well covered in terms of having lowered the risk of transmission.
I hope your visit to VagExpress is a good, safe experience.
Em
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I think it was Barnum who said "there's a sucker born everyday." You my friends are being played.
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Only thing missing in this discussion is Russian ninja blow jobs.
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From my point of view the terminology I was suggesting had nothing to do with political correctness, the latter being a term that generally makes me cringe or get pissed off since it's often used in an abusive or obstructive way.
No, I was just suggesting alternate words that are not tainted with old time prudishness and denegrating judgements about those ply the sex trade. In my experience the experiences of paid for sex are as varied as the more conventional civilian experiences. The latter often are unofficially commercial in case you haven't noticed.
Anyway whatever words are used to me the matter is behaving respectfully towards another person, no matter what the circumstances.
Which I must acknowledge I don't find easy to do when it involves certain people I really despise. I'm thinking of an encounter I had years ago with Hizzzoner Saint Rudy at Gracie Mansion and I was just itching to tell him what a piece of fascist dreck I thought he was. I had to settle for seeing I'd made him angry which was a somewhat satisfying consolation prize.
But I digress.
And yes, Bear, there is a distinctly familiar whiff of familiarity in here which I noticed right off.
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Are prostitutes an acceptable way to go in terms of having sex without feeling any obligation to disclose HIV status?
What a bunch of hogwash. If you think for one second that Upallnight is the least bit concerned about the exploitation of women, or anyone else for that matter, you've not had the pleasure of reading up's enlightning prior postings. It's all there in black and white. A different screen name won't change that leopard's spots.
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404error=UpAllNight? Say it isn't so....Why make another name just to start a different thread.. I guess I have been hoodwinked.....bamboozled even........*goes off to roll a doobie*
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O Lord, not another sock puppet.....
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It is my experience that if your disclose your status , you are gonna find it difficult to find a sex worker that will accept having sex with you, even wearing a condom. The very very few that will accept might even charge you some extra money to have sex. But then, maybe in the place where you live sex workers are more openminded, i do not know.
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O Lord, not another sock puppet.....
He's not a sock-puppet, he requested a name-change. All his prior posting history is there for the reading under the new name of 404error. Just click on his name to get into his profile, then click on "show posts" - either under his name in on the left side or near the bottom of the page.
Ann
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I sort of agree that the girl in question would be deserving of respect.
I think I poorly worded this. I do agree that the girl in question would be deserving of respect. The same level of respect I would show a barista, a waitress, a clerk in a clothing store, basically anyone who works directly with the public and is there doing their job.
As for those who disagreed with me or posted negative comments directed towards me, you are entitled to your opinions as I am entitled to mine and neither of us is right or wrong.
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404
I have some serious fantasies about what a bunch of women would do to you if we could just tie u up and then piss all over you.
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I've always treated sex workers better than my boyfriends.
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404 I have some serious fantasies about what a bunch of women would do to you if we could just tie u up and then piss all over you.
While I'm flattered (but mostly concerned) that you spend time fantasizing about someone you don't know, haven't seen or have never met, you'll be saddened to know that I am not a watersports bottom. Also to the moderators, I can't help but laugh at the job you're doing here. I get rebuked for using the words "hooker" and "prostitute" then we have a member come in here, express his fantasies on detaining, restraining and urinating all over another member and not so much as a word? Keep up the good work team! I wonder what would happen to a male AIDS MEDS member if they were to publicly declare fantasizing doing the very same thing things mentioned in the above quote to a female member of this site? I'm guessing a time out at the very least however I wouldn't be suprised if that member was banned, but I digress...
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I think I poorly worded this. I do agree that the girl in question would be deserving of respect. The same level of respect I would show a barista, a waitress, a clerk in a clothing store, basically anyone who works directly with the public and is there doing their job.
In my opinion, there is no hierarchy to human life, or to respect. I try to give the same amount of respect to a waitress that I would to a loved one. I don't think there are levels with this kind of thing -- we are talking about people's lives.
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wow. here's my 2 cents. no human sexual interaction is merely a transaction. treat them with respect? sure. get off - most definitely. before hitting them up let them know you are poz, it is one less thing you will have to worry about. you are already concerned about people accepting your status or possibly passing on the disease. you cannot mask this concern by paying for sex. if i were you, i'd send them an email asking if they are okay with poz men. a simple yes or no will allow you to proceed. a phone call screening can be as effective.
no, i do not believe anyone should walk over another human being. yes, i think sex work/prostitution/hooking/tricking is acceptable. like with all workers, treat them with the level of respect they treat you with and be sure to get your money's worth : )~
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I have some serious fantasies about what a bunch of women would do to you if we could just tie u up and then piss all over you.
Don’t say things like that. You will get him all excited and he will have nothing left for his appointment with Misty.
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Hello All,
Please excuse us, my friends and I are just walking through. By the way, I'd like to introduce you to Common Sense and 'Lotsa Compassion. We don't want to cause trouble but it seems that the person posing the question about having sex with a sex trade entrepreneur (our term) should take proper precautions for the sake of all parties (himself included) concerned. If he is determined to conduct business, he should do so and be pleasant about it--and banish all negative thoughts about whether the business person should be accorded respect and decent treatment.
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Also to the moderators, I can't help but laugh at the job you're doing here. I get rebuked for using the words "hooker" and "prostitute" then we have a member come in here, express his fantasies on detaining, restraining and urinating all over another member and not so much as a word? Keep up the good work team!
404, if you feel that you're on the receiving end of abuse, send a moderator report. We can't act on something if we don't know about -- and, no, we're not all sitting around, 24 hours a day, monitoring every active thread. We received moderator reports about your initial message. And you weren't even rebuked by a moderator -- you weren't warned or even threatened with a warning, but rather provided with some food for thought regarding your use of language if you wanted your post to be taken at all seriously. So please get off your high horse.
And Bear... there was no reason to degrade this conversation with the comment you made above.
Tim Horn
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I don't see this thread as progressive communication. It's been up long enough to collect a number of opinions, stir some flames and it's no in my opinion going anywhere that's helpful.
So I am going to risk our missing some epiphany and lock it now.
And lets not have PART2 begun in a new thread.