POZ Community Forums
HIV Prevention and Testing => Do I Have HIV? => Topic started by: basilthecowboy on January 07, 2007, 01:20:15 pm
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Hi everyone and thanks for a great educational service that you do for the public. It is truly remarkable and I applaud the good folks on this site.
I have a short question. Do I need to test at all if I received a blowjob and my partner licked up and down my body and sucked on my nipples and she was positive.? I am sorry for being graphic but want to keep it short. My understanding is that receiving oral sex is low risk and this was also with a condom although some of her saliva slid onto the unprotected portion of my shaft and of course by licking my body, I thought this was low risk also.
Is my assessment correct and is a 9,5 week test after a previous protected vaginal intercourse encounter sufficient time for an indicative indication of negative.?
Thank you once again.
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You didn't need to test. Your risk was ZERO. Saliva is not infectious.
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You do not need to test at all for this incident. You do not have risk from a protected blow job. Second of all, saliva is not infectious, so no matter where she licked you, it is not a risk. Also, protected sex is indeed protected so that protected vaginal intercourse incident you mention at the end of your post doesn't need a test either. So if the condom stayed intact, you have no reason to test--HIV cannot pass through intact latex.
Anyone who is sexually active would do well to get regular tests--not just for HIV but all STDs. People tend to forget about the others, but they are much easier to catch than HIV. At minimum, it should be once a year.
To definitively test for HIV, it should be 3 months after a particular incident. While the majority of people who will test positive will test positive by 6 weeks, 3 months is still recommended to be definitive.
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Thank you for your responses. I am just going to get on with things and forget about this. Thanks again.
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I do recommend that you become better acquainted with the real issues in relation to HIV risk. Read the lesson about transmission on this site. The link is in the Welcome thread which opens this section.
That way you can skip worrying unnecessarily and by consistently using condoms for intercourse consistently you can protect your health and enjoy your sexuality.
Cheers,
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Thanks but if condoms were as safe as people claim, how come people are still getting HIV when they claim to have been using them? How effective are condoms really in preventing HIV? 'Very effective' does not mean 100%, it could mean 50% or 80%.
Thanks
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Condoms are 100% effective for HIV infection. I don't know where you read that they were 80% of 50% effective. I will let Andy and Ann chime in on those "claims".
Milker.
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Milker, let me clarify. I am not saying that those are the statistics I have read. I am merely trying to quantify my risk when it is said that condoms are 'effective'. ie what does 'effective' mean? 60%, or 70% or 90% or 99%?
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I will let Ann or Andy respond to this.
Milker.
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Condoms that are consistently used, used correctly are 100% safe for the prevention of HIV.
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Basil,
When condoms are correctly and consistently used, they prevent hiv infection and there are thousands and thousands of serodiscordant couples around the world who will testify to their effectiveness.
Please read through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use them with confidence.
As for the people who claim infection despite condom use, who knows how many times they may have been too drunk and/or under the influence of drugs to remember what they got up to. Some people know they slipped up but don't want to admit it. There's loads of possible reasons. However, we do know through controlled, long-term studies that condoms do work - when used correctly and consistently.
Ann
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Thanks Ann and all who responded. This is somewhat reassuring. If I used a condom for intercourse from start to finish, should I put this to rest then?
I might be suffering from guilt as I am getting married in 3 months.???
I just can't understand how HIV is becoming so rampant with all the education out there. Surely if people are learning to use condoms, why is HIV so prevalent? Since we are learning so much about HIV, is it not likely to change that condoms are not so effective?
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I just can't understand how HIV is becoming so rampant with all the education out there. Surely if people are learning to use condoms, why is HIV so prevalent? Since we are learning so much about HIV, is it not likely to change that condoms are not so effective?
No Basil, it's because irrespective of education people don't use condoms and thus they contract HIV.
MtD
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I just can't understand how HIV is becoming so rampant with all the education out there. Surely if people are learning to use condoms, why is HIV so prevalent? Since we are learning so much about HIV, is it not likely to change that condoms are not so effective?
It's interesting to see how your thread is contradictory. With all this education out there then why did you even post your initial question? I don't want to hijack here and I think this is a very interesting post showing that education is a disaster, and I'm wondering where this discussion could take place so that people like Basil can have their say?
Milker.
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So am I correct in saying the following:
I had protected intercourse with a woman of unknown status and I should put this behind me? Is it safe to have unprotected intercourse with my fiance after this incident assuming we both tested negative before this incident and I am extremely unlikely (if at all) to have contracted HIV from straying because I used a condom for intercourse?
Thanks for your help in helping me understand this.
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Milker I take your point. What I am trying to understand is whether I am acting according to the correct information. The problem is that condoms used to be referred to as 'safe' sex and now we hear of 'safer' sex so surely it means that condoms reduce the risks but not eliminate them?
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The problem is that condoms used to be referred to as 'safe' sex and now we hear of 'safer' sex so surely it means that condoms reduce the risks but not eliminate them?
Basil,
Condoms properly used (ie prior to their use-by date and with water-based lubricant) effectively prevent the transmission of HIV and many other sexually transmissible infections. No matter how hard you try to find loop-holes to this, 25 years of peer reviewed science have proven it as fact.
Yup. That's right. I'm calling it a fact.
You had protected sex therefore you were not exposed to HIV (even in the unlikely event that your partner was positive) and as a result you don't need to test as a result of that encounter.
MtD
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Basil,
The reason it is called safer, as opposed to safe, sex is because sometimes condoms break. It's just one of those semantics things. If you use condoms correctly, the chance of having one break is pretty much nil. Again, read through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use them with confidence.
As for having unprotected intercourse with your fiance, you need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL STIs together. To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with a sexually transmitted infection. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.
You don't need to worry about your protected incident. However, you need to use condoms with anyone until you've tested together with them.
Ann
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Thanks to all that have responded. appreciate the time and effort that you give in helping people like myself get educated. The mind can be a bit tricky at the best of times. Ann, you mentioned that my finance and I should be using condoms until we test together in a secure monogamous relationship. We both tested negative before this incident and then I strayed but I used a condom for vaginal intercourse. If that supposedly kept me 'protected', and I have no reason to believe my finace is cheating, do you think it is safe for me to dispense with the condoms with her, or is there any margin of doubt that I should still use condoms with her and get tested?
Thanks again for your time and input.
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Reread Ann's last post to you.
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Rapid
"you need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL STIs together."
Does this mean I have to use condoms until we test again? Does this mean there is a miniscule risk or perhaps because my fiance might not have been faithful?
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Basil,
You're ok as far as hiv goes.
However, there are other STIs that are much easier to transmit. Whether you feel it is right to use condoms or not use condoms with your girlfriend is up to you. Maybe you should let her decide what level of risk she is prepared to take.
You used a condom so you didn't have an hiv risk.
Ann
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Thank you for explaining this to me and for the compassion of the good people on this site. ;)
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The article that appeared in Business Day makes no sense. How come so many women still contracted HIV when using condoms. This goes against what we are bing told is scientific.
I am only trying to stimulate debate not scare people at all, but this clearly does not make sense to what we are being told.
Diaphragms no good in the fight against HIV, study finds
Tamar Kahn
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E-Mail article Print-Friendly
CAPE TOWN — Providing women with diaphragms as well as condoms turns out to be no better a package for preventing HIV transmission than giving women condoms alone.
This is the disappointing conclusion of a large international study involving almost 5000 women from SA and Zimbabwe.
The results, published online today by the Lancet medical journal, are important as experts around the world are hunting for ways to offer women more control over their sexual health.
At present, abstinence and condoms are the mainstay of HIV prevention programmes.
C ondoms are considered the best physical barrier on offer for preventing HIV-infected men from passing the virus on to women during sex.
However, research has proven that many women battle to get their partners’ co-operation or approval to use the prophylactics.
Scientists had hoped that diaphragms, which cover vulnerable cells in the cervix, might offer women an alternative form of protection, if condoms were not available or were frowned on by their partners.
The study found no statistical difference in the number of new HIV infections among the women who used condoms and diaphragms, compared with the women who used condoms only.
“It’s disappointing because there is such a need for a female-controlled method (of HIV prevention),” said the study’s principal investigator, Guy de Bruyn, from the Peri-natal HIV Research Unit at the University of the Witwatersrand.
During the two-year study, 158 out of the 2472 women provided with diaphragms and condoms became infected, while 151 of the 2476 women given condoms only, got the virus.
Women from Durban, Soweto and Harare participated in the trial. All the women were counselled about safe sex and treated for sexually transmitted infections, such as syphilis. This counselling led to an increase in condom use during the trial, it said .
Earlier this year, the Human Sciences Research Council reported that women accounted for 90% of recent HIV infections in the 15-24 age group. The researchers also found that HIV incidence among young women aged 20-29 was 5,9%, six times higher than that for men of the same age (0,9%).
The report underlined the fact that women under the age of 30 are at much greater risk of getting the disease than young men, sending a warning to the government that it needs dramatically to improve prevention campaigns aimed at this group.
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Basil,
I've merged your new thread into your original thread - where you should post all your additional thoughts or questions. It helps us to help you when you keep all your additional thoughts or questions in one thread.
If you need help finding your thread when you come here, click on the "Show own posts" link under your name in the left-hand column of any forum page.
Please also read through the Welcome Thread (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=220.0) so you can familiarize yourself with our Forum Posting Guidelines. Thank you for your cooperation.
The answer you seek is in the article you quote:
However, research has proven that many women battle to get their partners’ co-operation or approval to use the prophylactics.
Just because the women were provided with condoms doesn't mean to say they had success in getting their partners to use them.
Condom do prevent hiv infection and we have the studies to prove this fact. When condoms are used consistently and correctly, hiv transmission is prevented. But it's no good when the condoms are lying in a drawer when they should be on the penis. Condoms only work when they're used.
I'm in a serodiscordant relationship myself. We always use condoms and my partner remains hiv negative. We've been together eight years.
Read through all three condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.
Ann
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Hi All
I have been reading through the forum and wanted to see if any of the experts have some advice for me regarding me risk assessment.
I am a straight male but have engaged in protected oral sex with sex workers on a number of occassions. I have also had two sessions of intercourse with a condom with sex workers and numerous unprotected handjobs. I recently had giardiasis which is a parasite and not sure if this is related to HIV. I had bad diarrhea and a slightly elevated fever and was seeing if these had any correlation to ARS about 2 weeks after my last incident. I am very nervous to take the test. All these activities have taken place mainly in Africa where HIV/Aids is rampant. so there is some nagging feeling in my stomach that I may have been infected even though most of this is probably considered low risk.
Any help would be appreciated. I am thinking of going for a test 6,5 weeks after my last encounter. and then a final test in 12 weeks and then to stop all my nonsense.
Any thoughts or views?
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I've merged your latest thread with your previous one. Please follow our rule and keep all of your comments in this same thread.
You've been coming here long enough to know the answer to your latest question. The information you have received previously is transferrable from one situaiton to another. Nothing you did put you at risk for HIV transmission. Most importantly you used condoms for intercourse. They provide very effective protection against HIV transmission.
As you have already been told symptoms will tell you nothing accurately about your HIV status if you have had unprotected vaginal or anal intercourse. Only a test at 13 weeks will give you a definitive result. But you haven't had any risks so no testing is necessary. The symptom you are concerned about is not in any way HIV specific. Once again you're worrying needlessly about HIV.
We do recommend that anyone who's sexually active ought to regularly have a full STI panel done as other STIs are easier to transmit than HIV. And re-read the lesson on Transmission. There's a link to it in the Welcome thread which opens this section. But then you've been told all of this before? Are you listening and keeping it in mind? Appears not.
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Thanks Andy. I am trying to get past all of this and perhaps I am just not educated enough. I am trying my best to get a handle on all these issues.
One other question, if a test was positive would a doctor call the person or someone from public health, ie how is someone notified ?
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Notification procedures vary from state to state and country to country. I don't know where you're writing from. But in any case speculating as to what a call message or the absence of one is not the way to go. If you have taken a test and you haven't received a result then calling the source of your test and finding out what's up is the way to go.
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Hi Andy
I am in Toronto. I called the doctor's office after a week and they said the test isn't back yet. Is this an indication of any result? Would they have to give me the result or are they hiding it from me and waiting for Public Health to call me? I am just so scared.
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No, it is not an indication of any dire result or any result at all. Labs work on their own time and schedules. It can obviously be very disconcerting. Stay busy while you're waiting. You'll find that will help.
Given what you have reported to us of your activities I still expect you will test negative.
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This has been a very stressful week indeed. I had blood drawn at my house doctor on Friday the 28th December, 7 weeks after my last episode of fisting. The doctor saiid that the blood would only be collected on the 29th. I had been waiting and waiting for the result and the house doctor called me on the 7th to say that my blood sample had been lost and that I needed another sample and then eventually it had been found but that it wasn't tested because the label was anonymous and testing through a doctor's office has to have the patient's identification on the sample. I then went in to have another sample drawn on the 8th and the doctor called me on the 10th to say the first sample tested negative. All very confusing. Now I am thinking that the sample wasn't stored correctly and that the antibodies could have disappeared in the first sample and therefore a possible false negative.
What anxiety indeed. I don't even know what to think. My second sample went in yesterday and I hope that is negative too.
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Your mind is just playing loop-de-loop with you. I expect the next test result will be negative just as the first one was.
Get busy with other matters while you're waiting. Much healthier than practicing this self torture with what ifs and other speculations. And don't bother telling me it's so hard and you can't do it. If you use a fraction of the energy on more productive activities that you've been expending in worrying you will be amazed at how the waiting time can pass. Really.
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Hi
I have a question that I hope one of the moderators or experts can answer. I obtained a handjob from a sex worker without a condom. She sometimes brought her hand over the tiop of my penis and touched the urethra a few times very briefly a few times. If she was positive, did this put me at risk?
I have read the lessons and it appears a handjob is not a real risk for HIV but what are the chances of contracting it because she touched my urethra a few times?
I would appreciate any answers.
Thank you.
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No risk in masturbation. Take the time to read the lessons on transmission. You can find the link in the "Welcome thread" at the top of the forum.
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Thanks Rapid
Why is it not a risk if she touched my urethra a few times? Isn't that the route of entry into your body for the virus? She could have had an open cut on her finger?
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HIV is fragile and cannot stay active outside the its host.
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Basil,
You've been coming here for over a year now and you should know the answer to a basic question like this.
Not one person has ever been infected through a handjob and you won't be the first.
If you keep posting over this no-risk handjob, you will be given a time out.
Ann
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Here is my story. I am so petrified that I feel like I have made a huge mistake that I can't turn back the clock.
I had intercourse with two escorts in Toronto. The one escort I had vaginal sex with a condom and the other escort I had anal sex with a condom. The condoms did not appear to have snapped. They were the Lifestyle condoms.
1) What is making me petrified is the fact that some people claim to be infected even though engaging in safe sex. You can read that in the just diagnised section and yes I have no business there except that I am trying to educate myself as much as possible. Is safe sex the same as safer sex? Why is it called Safer sex now? I thought I was being safe.
2) I had a slight rash on my face and my pee was burning about two weeks after this incident. I also had a slight fever. This was all occuring at the time I lost a lot of money on the stockmarkets so my stress was very high. My lips were also cracked and not sure what that was from.
I am trying to figure out how safe I was and if there was any risk? I know that symptoms don't mean anything but was these the symptoms of ARS?
I am scheduling a test at 10 weeks. Can I expect it to be negative from these incidents?
Thanks for your time.
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You had protected sex and you didn't have a risk of contracting HIV and no those are not symptoms of ARS. Take the time to read the lessons on transmission. The link can be found in the "Welcome" thread.
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Thanks Rapidrod. However, protected sex does not mean zero risk. The codom was put on before penetration and did not break as far as I could tell but there is still a risk maybe low risk?
I can't get over how come so many people in the world still contract HIV when they know about HIV and condom use has gone up like South Africa or other African countries. It must mean that condoms are not 100% effective, maybe reduces your ridsk by 90%? I am still so new to this information.
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Condoms provide very effective protection against HIV transmission. There's actually no need for testing in relation to the two incidents you mentioned. If you do so it's only for your peace of mind to collect the inevitable negatuve result.
We do also recommend that anyone who's sexually active ought to regularly have a full STD panel done -- at least annually and more often if there is any risky business. Other STDs are much easier to acquire than HIV.
If your symptoms persist you should discuss them with your doctor. This is not an HIV situation.
The continuing high infection rate is not because condoms don't work. It's because despite all the information out there about safer sex and condom use, all too many men are simply not using condoms. That may surprise you but it's what is sadly so. When condoms are used consistently they do an excellent job of protection. You might also keep in mind that the religious right orientation of the Bush adminstration has denied aid to many programs in Africa and elsewhere if they emphasize condom use rather than abstinance and monogramy.
Cheers.
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Andy and Rapidrod
I really do appreciate your time and your assistance in helping people like me . Your site suggests that one can expect a negative result if one used a condom for anal or vaginal sex and it was used consistently and correctly. The fact is I still seem to have got some sort of STD. It still needs diagnosis but how can burning pee not be an STD after having sex?
Would I know if the condom broke or tore? What if there was a hole on the side of the condom?
Is the virus smaller than the microscopic holes in condoms? If I had anal sex, isn't that more risky?
I am married and terrified I to have sex with my wife.
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Return to your orginal thread. Take the time to read the posting guidelines.
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The lessons state that using condoms consistently and correctly will reduce the chance of infection. That does not mean that the risk is eliminated. How much is the risk reduced by?
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Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.
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The idea about microscopic holes in a condom is an urban myth. When a condom fails, it's not a subtle happening. It ends up looking like a fringed hoop on your penis.
When a latex condom is properly worn the HIV status of your partner becomes irrelevant because condoms are very effective in protecting you against HIV. And that's true whether you were having vaginal or anal sex. Anytime you have sex with anything than your own hand there is "theoretically" some risk. But in the real world of HIV we know that properly worn latex condoms which don't break provide very, very effective protection.
Stop self-diagnosing yourself. It's bad for your health. You might have urinary tract infection that has nothing to do with having had sex. You need to discuss it with your doctor because we can't diagnose symptoms here. Stop torturing yourself and get it checked out with your doctor.
Often guys worry more when they have been with sex workers and because they have gone straying. It doesn't matter whom you are with -- professional or civilian. It's whether you used condoms or not that matters.
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ok, thank you Andy for your sage advice. So I guess I have a high chance of testing negative and that it is for peace of mind only. Maybe stress is getting to me.
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Yes, I expect you to test negative.
The risk for guilt and and anxiety among straying husbands and partners always seems to disproportionately high. You did what you did. Can't undo it. If you do it again make sure you always use a condom.
And if your urinating continues to be uncomfortable, talk to your doctor.
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Basil,
Once again, I've merged your new thread into your original thread - where you should post all your additional thoughts or questions. It helps us to help you when you keep all your additional thoughts or questions in one thread.
If you need help finding your thread when you come here, click on the "Show own posts" link under your name in the left-hand column of any forum page.
Please also read through the Welcome Thread (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=220.0) so you can familiarize yourself with our Forum Posting Guidelines. Thank you for your cooperation.
Stop starting new threads. If you'd bothered to follow our posting guidelines and found your original thread like you're supposed to, you wouldn't have had to have Rodney and Andy rehash a question you asked ages ago.
Either have faith in condoms or stop having sex. It's up to you. We're not here to hold your hand every time you visit an escort.
Ann
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Ann
Sorry for that. I should have kept it in one thread. The facts were slightly different this time in that I had anal with a condom. I thought this might be a higher risk. The fact that I had buring pee meant that I got something so if I did get something, then HIV might have passed through the condom.
I should not have engaged again after my previous questions. I was feeling depressed. I can't get it out of my mind. I feel helpless and stupid after knowing that I should not be putting myself at any risk.
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You might consider getting yourself to a therapist or other professional to discuss your situation and how come you continue to put yourself in situations where you feel like crap and worry obsessively afterwards. Life at its longest is too short to waste in such misery.
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Andy
Without question I am going to set up an appointment with a therapist. I might be suffering from guilt which is feeding an OCD. I will take your advice on this.
It just seems that I cannot live with even a small risk. That is the nature of OCD. Well, I will be tested on the 29th and also set up an appointment with a therapist. I feel so miserable that everything in my life will be lost over taking a stupid risk.
I will not put myself at any more risk again as the anxiety is worse that the pleasure.
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That sounds like a good plan for taking care of yourself. Good luck with it.
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Andy
Thanks for your patience and understanding.
A little bit of reassurance goes a long way with us when we don't tolerate risk well.
I feel a little bit better from the responses from you and Rapidrod and Ann.
I am taking a conscious decision to focus on the good things in my life and I really hope that my test will be negative as everyone has said.
It is still so nerve wracking to to think "What-if" etc.
Thanks again.
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So I have started taking Zoloft now to control my anxiety. I looked at the aegis website and it says that condom covered intercourse is very low risk and anal sex with a condom is low risk. This is based on doctors and medical professionals and is very different from what you all have been telling me that there is no risk.
My symptoms prove something else is going on.
Also, a previous long term survivor posted that condoms are not 100% effective. Right so why do I feel like I am being misled. I am never going to have sex again outside my marriage. I have too much of a risk even with a condom. I am so upset.
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Seek professional counseling. You were never at risk from having protected sex. Condoms used consistently and correctly are very effective in preventing HIV and other STDs.
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Basil,
Some sites will say that protected intercourse is low risk simply because of the possibility that the condom might break. Yours didn't. They won't either, if you use them correctly. Read the condom and lube links in my signature line if you haven't already.
Protected intercourse where the condom has not broken IS NO RISK for hiv infection.
My symptoms prove something else is going on.
Sure, something might be going on, but that something is not going to be hiv. The ONLY way to find out what, if anything, IS going on is by seeing a doctor. Posting on an internet forum is not going to give you a diagnosis.
Keep posting about this NO RISK situation and you will be given a time out. There's nothing more we can do for you here.
Ann
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ok so I am starting to feel a little bit more controlled and relaxed about the last incident. The Zoloft is really helping me keep a handle on this. All I want to know is if anyone contracted HIV with an intact latex condom through anal/vaginal sex? Can I fully expect a negative on this test next week? I am trying to breathe and take my mind off this.
Thanks again and I am sorry for a being a pain but just want some reassurance until next week.
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Re-read what Ann said to you a couple of entries ago.
I STILL expect you to test negative.
You've got a few more days to wait for the inevitable negative result. Get busy with other things while you're waiting for your result and lay off of surfing the web for more stuff to scare yourself with. No kidding.
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Thanks Andy.
I am going for my test tomorrow. I think the Hasslefree Clinic in Toronto uses the rapid test but I aqm not sure. There are still niggling thought sin my mind about symptoms and the rash on my face and slight fever. The zoloft has been pretty helpful in containing negative thoughts. I am praying that all iss okay and my test is negative. Still very frightened though.
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Fortunately feelings aren't facts. Good luck with your test which I expect will yield a negative result.
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I wanted to let you know that I went for a rapid test at the Hasslefree Clinic and it was negative. I am so happy. I am still not sure what the symptoms were a result of but am testing for other stds. The test was done at 10 weeks. I hope that is sufficient time. If I am found to have an std, it will freak me out because then I think that the condom failed.
I wanted to thank everyone that responded especially Andy, Ann and Rapidrod for helping me through this time.
I have two resolutions: The first to do my part in whatever form to fight this dreadful disease and the second to be faithful to my wife.
The lesson learnt from this is that to avoid the agony of what-ifs, think before you do an act, what you are comfortable with and don't get caught up in the moment.
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HI
I have been coing to this site often and there is a lot of debate about the risks of oral sex. I also understand that giving oral sex is riskier than receiving. I am a male and received a blowjob and worried that the saliva could have given me HIV. What is my real risk?
Thanks for your input.
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Basil,
This is the FIFTH time we've had to merge your threads. It's time consuming and I'm beginning to think you really don't listen to a single thing said to you here.
If you did, you'd already know that there is ABSOLUTELY NO HIV RISK to you when you get you get your dick sucked.
You've had it here mate. You've been coming here for over two years now and if we haven't gotten through to you yet, we're never going to. I'm banning you. We've got better things to do than to talk to brick walls.
Go get yourself into therapy. We can do no more for you.
Ann