help please

[johno]

Guys, need your assessment of my risk. Returned from Spain on holiday where I ended up in a sex club. Had protected BJ and very brief vaginal. IS this really no risk? Do I need to have a test before having sex with my wife? Had a cold sore at the time on my lip. Does this increase the risk? Should I be worried about other STD´s?

Also fell coming out of Jacuzzi and scraped arms and legs - any risk of transmission from other peoples remnants?

Need your support guys - desperate with worry.

[Andy Velez]

If I am reading you clearly, you had a condom on during the brief vaginal. If that is so you don't have any cause for concern about this incident in terms of HIV. Condoms provide very effective protection against HIV transmission.

As for the blowjob, even if it had been unprotected there wouldn't have been any risk. In the entire history of the epidemic there's never been a documented case of transmission from getting a blowjob. It's safe to say you aren't going to make history by becoming the first.

I don't see any cause for further concern on your part about HIV in relation to this incident.

Cheers, 

[johno]

Andy,

Thanks for the feedback. You are correct - the brief vaginal (2 mins) was protected however my concern is that having had a few beers my penis wasn´t fully erect and therefore the condom may have slipped down the shaft. nevertheless I´m pretty certain the head was covered.

can you comment on the other exposure i.e. grazes where i slipped and fell and whether this could have been an entry point if there were semen or blood on the floor? Also when i took the condom off I touched the outside of it and may have got vaginal fluid on my hands momentarily - I then washed my penis in water with the same hand. Could this have been a transmission mechanism?

finally, i also performed some brief fingering - no obvious cuts on my finger.

I am really terrified of passing something to my wife. Is there really 0% risk with respect to HIV or possibly a very small risk that merits testing? My wife will expect normal relations to resume very soon - I can´t tell her about this incident but at the same time will struggle to come up with a rational reason.

[ACinKC]

You were protected with the condom so no worries as far as the vaginal.  Blow job isnt a risk.  So that leaves the scrapes which arent a risk either.

HIV is transmitted INSIDE the body.  Not from environmental surfaces.  So anything left on the jacuzzi floor is of no concern.  Niether are vaginal juices on your hand which then washed your penis.  HIV is not transmitted in these ways. 

You were smart to use protection, if you continue to stray away from the wife just be sure you wear one each and every time you have intercourse and you dont need to worry about HIV.

0% risk in this incident for HIV. 

[Andy Velez]

Your head is playing with you because you strayed. You were not at risk for HIV in this incident. PERIOD. 

[Andy Velez]

And I said "documented"case. Documented is different than hearsay, guessing or conjecture.

That stuff just stirs the pot without providing any reliable information.

 

[johno]

Thanks folks for your reassurance. This was a stupid drunken mistake on my part and I am now living in terror for fear of the consequences.

Problem is i was with two different eastern european girls at different times in the evening in different clubs. I definetely recall the second girl where I had protected BJ and protected vaginal. However I am now sketchy on the first one! At the time I was sure it was a protected BJ and some fingering - nothing else. Now I am having a memory blank on this episode wondering whether it was protected and whether it went beyond a BJ to vaginal also. I think I would definetely have recalled vaginal but just can´t remember exactly - wonder whether the fear is causing my mind to play games. Don´t recall removing the condom although she may have done this.

Right now I am in a sheer state of panic. Not sure how i will get through the coming week. Any suggestions?

[ACinKC]

Stay off of this site.  Don't research symptoms.  If you have a hobby, devote a little more time to it.  Watch TV.  Just stay busy.

[johno]

Thanks.

One last question - how would the risk increase if I had performed cunnilingus with a cold sore. Again, I don´t think I did, there was some body kissing but not in the vaginal area from recollection. However as mentioned my recollection was not great. I have a cold sore on my lip in the process of healing but it has been cracking on a daily basis and bleeding a little. Would this heighten the risk.

based on my previous emails would you now recommend that i get tested?

[ACinKC]

It does not increase your risk.  And no i would not test.

[Ann]

johno,

Another word for "cold sore" is HERPES. You should NOT be kissing anyone anywhere while you have a coldsore on your lip, because you will spread your herpes to them. This includes going down on a woman - you can give her genital herpes this way.

However, going down on a woman (cunnilingus) is NOT a risk for hiv infection, herpes blister on your lip or no herpes blister. But as I said, you should NEVER do this while you have a herpes outbreak on your lip, for HER sake, not for yours.

Ann

[johno]

Ann,

Of course I would never do this deliberately however the effects of the alcohol may have predominated. fact is i just don´t know.

Ann, do you also agree with ACinKC on the testing question given my scant recollection of events with the first lady?

[Ann]

johno,

You only need to test if it is part of your regular, routine sexual health care.

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL STIs together. To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with a sexually transmitted infection. Sex with a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Have a look through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

Anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results. Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!

Ann

[johno]

Guys,

I know I said I just returned from Spain on vacation - fact is I´m still here. Just embarrased at the level of fear this incident has generated in me. I,ve now had diarhoea for the last few days and generally feel in a heightened state of anxiety.

last night I went and spoke to the first girl I was with to clarify what exactly happened since I had no long term recollection.

Turns out risk was protected blowjob, internal fingering of her vagina and brief body and mouth kissing (note that i had a cold sore)

Second girl risk was protected BJ and protected vaginal - don´t recall the condom breaking or coming off although it may have been shrivelled up.

based on this and the fact that I recently had a definitive negative test at the appropriate time I assume you would recommend against testing again over this incident? What worries me most is the fingering and kissing, etc since it wasn´t protected. I have read the lessons and note that there has never been a definitive case due to this however could this not be due to the fact that other activities take place at the same time. The finger I used has no major cuts but what about micro cuts or under the fingernails? How long would the virus survive outside the human body on e.g. a finger. i´m worried that touching an eye e.g. couls result in transmission.

The ladies I was with both said they did not have HIV however I guess they are probably likely to say this.

Sorry for rambling on - I really am in a state of fear. really concerned about passing something to my wife- despite some earlier reassurances. Trying to avoid what if´s but obviously my mind is not mature enough to deal with this situation. certainly won´t be putting myself in this position again.

Appreciate the support from everyone on the forum - keeping me going at the moment.

[Ann]

johno,

Neither kissing nor fingering are risks for hiv transmission. I hope you told the first woman that you may have infected her with oral herpes. And don't start fretting that your oral herpes put you at risk from the kiss, the only person at risk for anything was the woman you kissed.

You haven't had an hiv risk whatsoever. Condoms have been proven to prevent hiv infection and not only that, but GETTING a blowjob, with or without a condom, is not a risk for hiv infection. Not one person has ever been infected through getting a blowjob, fingering or kissing and you won't be the first.

Keep using those condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!

Ann

[johno]

Thanks for the reassurance Ann.

I take your point about the Oral herpes - as i said before I never set out to pass this to anyone however i guess this is a lesson in how messed up alcohol makes you.

Can you comment on the fingering incident. I have read the lessons but I,m not sure i understand the science behind this as compared to e.g. vaginal fluids getting into a cut on the penis. If there are any types of cuts or scratched on your finger would this not pose the same risk as vaginal? Sorry if it,s a stupid question but understanding the reason behind why might help me to let go on this fear. i don´t have any major cuts on my finger (one at the base which is healing) but wouldn´t know if there are micro cuts. Would this not pose a risk.

Thanks for your patience in answering me.

[Ann]

johno,

Check out this post on the same subject:

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10004.msg123656#msg123656

Ann

[johno]

Ann,

Thanks for this - excellent link and answered most of my questions. Would there be a risk of fingering if the finger inserted in the vagina with fluid on it then touched other areas that had the required cell structure e.g. foreskin or anus? Also, not sure how it´s known for certain that fingering isn´t a risk since surely it could be possible that someone could be infected this way and assume it happened as a result of another risk.

As you can probably tell I am still freaking out over the events that occured. Two days later I am having night sweats and diarhoea. i know that you say symptoms mean nothing but mentally it´s hard to ignore when you have otherwise been healthy.

Apart from the fingering everything else was protected. however due to the alcohol consumption my penis was not very erect. in fact the lady i was with changed the condom halfway through receiving a blow job presumably for this reason. However I am concerned it may have slipped such that the head of the penis was uncovered during the vaginal intercourse. I do remember taking it off at the end and it wasn´t burst however I don´t know how much of my penis was covered. If it wasn´t presumably this changes the whole risk scenario? Appreciate your thoughts. i have read the condom link in your email and it seems to suggest to be careful with condom application if the penis is not erect.

I will return home tomorrow on Sunday but still can´t get comfortable with the fact that I won´t be putting my wife at significant risk. Does what I have told you change your previous advice?

Appreciate your patience. I know I have been extremely stupid however fact is I am really struggling at the moment and this site had been an immense help so far.

[RapidRod]

You were never at risk. If you took the condom off, the condom was always on. If it would not have slipped off, you could never have gotten it back on, without putting it on by hand.

[johno]

Thanks Rapid. My concern wasn´t that it had come off completely but that it had slipped to the point where the foreskin and or penis head wasn´t covered.

Sounds like the concensus from all is no need to test in this case. right?

[johno]

Guys,

The condom I was using was put on by the lady in question during BJ. this then turned to vaginal intercourse. Despite removing the condom at the end of intercourse my worry is that I wasn´t erect enough and the condom slipped to the point it wasn´t properly covering my foreskin or the head of my penis. Am I right in thinking if the condom slid that far that it would just come off completely or are my fears founded somewhat? Should also add that the intercourse was fairly brief.

With this uncertainty do you suggest I test.

[RapidRod]

If a condom would have slipped off that far you wouldn't have taken it off your penis. She would have had to pull it out of her vagina. NO, you don't need to test.

[Andy Velez]

Your mind is torturing you for some personal reasons you maybe aware about. Shame about your actions? Do you have a partner you cheated on? Any or all of the above?

Because nothing you have reported leads me to believe you were at risk for transmission.

The biggest red flag in the situation is that you were drinking excessively. It's never a good idea to mix casual sex and excessive drinking. Fortunately from everything you have reported your penis head was covered during intercourse and that's what matters as far as transmission risk is concerned.

The only reasons to test for HIV would be 1) if you have a serious doubt about whether one of the incidents was unprotected -- and I say IF because it sounds like both were protected OR 2) if you need a negative test result to put your mind at ease.

Otherwise I say take a breath and get on with your life.

Cheers,

[johno]

Guys, thanks for the reassurance.

Since this happened I have had night sweats every night (no fever) which has also freaked me. I know that seroconversion normally takes 2 weeks or more however is there any documented evidence of seroconversion after 1 or 2 days?

I´m trying not to get hung up on symptoms however it´s a bit disconcerting when this is so coincidental.

[RapidRod]

Whatever your problems are, they are unrelated to HIV.

[Andy Velez]

Coincidental. That's the right word, John. And no, you would not be manifesting ARS two days after an exposure.

Your mind is working overtime to no good purpose, sifting everything through a mindset looking for proof of your worst fears. All of course without any basis in HIV science of course, but that's how minds can go sometimes.

Based on what you reported of your incidents, I still say this is NOT an HIV situation, sweats and all notwithstanding.

[johno]

Thanks for the support you have given - it has certainly been a massive help over the last week.

At the end of the day however I don't see any alternative for me other than to test just because I'm worried that the condom, although used, may not have been properly in place. I guess I need guarantees at this point something that you can't understandably give.

Over the last day I have started to feel some minor discomfort in my groin area and have concerns that it could be Chlamydia or Gonorrhea. I will go and test for this during the coming week however if that were to be positive then it would more than likely signify that the condom wasn't providing proper coverage. That being the case how does it change my risk? I never understand comments that suggest one time vaginal exposure female to male unprotected probably isn't going to result in HIV when you see all of the statistics about the number of hetrosexuals acquiring HIV every year - largest growth in new cases. How do these two add up?

I realise I'm probably overanalysing the situation however guess that's my way of dealing with things!

[Andy Velez]

The "massive help" doesn't seem to have been so massively helpful after all. You're still busily coming up with more what ifs -- what if I have these other STDs and what if that means HIV could also have been transmitted. And what about all of the men infected worldwide, etc. All irrelevant "stuff" as far as you are concerned, no matter what your mind says to the contrary. 

We've discussed your specific situation. A condom was used. They provide very effective protection.

By all means go ahead and check with your doctor about other STDs. We are focused on HIV on this site. I think it's unlikely that you picked up anything else given what you described, but even if you did, it wouldn't change the HIV aspect of this conversation.

That's just your mind playing with your again. You're starting to convince me that you need to see a counselor or other mental health specialist to discuss what's going on.

[johno]

Sorry Andy - didn't mean to get your back up. I'm just finding it really difficult to accept that my incident was no risk for HIV.

I'll refrain from posting further.

[Andy Velez]

John, just because your mind keeps telling you otherwise doesn't change the basic facts of what you have reported. Feelings are not facts.

Go ahead and get tested at 13 weeks, collect what I expect inevitably will be a negative result and hopefully that will put an end to your concern.

In the meantime stay productively busy and you will find the waiting time will pass more quickly and comfortably than you may imagine possible at this point.

[johno]

Just so that I can be absolutely clear the concensus is that I pose absolutely no HIV risk to my wife should I decide to engage in intercourse at this point, based on what I have told you?

I definetely remember a condom in place for the oral sex (both times) and used the same condom for brief vaginal. I also definetely remember taking it off and asking where to put it. Based on rapidrod's feedback this would imply the head was covered during vaginal? Is there any possibility that vaginal fluid could have transferred to my foresking during removal and infected this way via the mucous membranes (I am uncircumcised). I also note that the infectious fluid's are normally at the cervix - guess that would imply I wouldn't have come into contact with them if not fully erect?

Sorry to keep harking on about this but I had a terrible night last night and it all seems to revolve around whether this condom would have been effective or not.

BTW I have today arranged for a check-up on other STD's and am seriously considering mental health counselling. This is driving me nuts!

[RapidRod]

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

[johno]

Message received and understood. However please understand that I am only questioning to understand specifically why this is a no risk situation. There's too much at stake to do otherwise.

I won't trouble the forum any longer!

[Andy Velez]

John, you had a condom on for intercourse. They provide very effective protection. And no, cervical fluid would not have gotten on to your penis while removing the condom. With a condom on it's irrelevant that you're not circumcised.

We would have known long before today if transmission was that easy to accomplish while removing a condom.

You are worrying needlessly.

[johno]

Andy,

Thanks for your continuing words of support. Really appreciated.

I really do understand that having a condom on prevents against HIV. The thing that seems to be driving my fears is trying to remember whether the condom was on sufficiently enough for it to be effective. As I said previously I was drunk and also not very erect so although I took it off at the end I am struggling to convince myself that it covered what it needed to. If it didn't then that probably put a totally different perspective on my risk as I have read that there is quite a high HIV prevalence amongst Eastern European Sex Workers.

On top of that I am also feeling extremely guilty about what I have done and the potential implications for my wife and family.

That's it in a nutshell - I don't want to continue to take advantage of the good nature of the people who have supported me on this forum. I'm just having difficulty getting beyond the condom on/condom off scenario.

[ACinKC]

If it wasnt on properly it would have ended up INSIDE her.  You were covered.

It's the guilt thats bothering you the most.  And that we cant help you with.

[Andy Velez]

Actually John, I have suspected that guilt is the real issue here. Guilt is not a testament to your finer character nor a love tribute to your wife and family. It's just an indulgence that is bad for all concerned, whether they are aware it's going on or not.

You did what you did. That cannot be undone. You're a dog like the rest of us and you went straying. See it, take it in, breathe and let it go. That's the most loving thing you can do for all concerned.

I don't see your situation as having put you at risk for HIV. If it will help you to put an en end to this self-torture, then get tested and collect the inevitable negative result. And get on with your life.

Cheers,

[johno]

Thanks guys.

You can probably tell I don't have much experience of using condoms since this was a one off experience outside my normally monogamous marital relationship. It certainly helps to hear input from people with more extensive experience. If I can convince myself I was covered, despite lack of full erection, then it will help me get through the next 6-12 weeks.

Andy, I will probably take a test for peace of mind and hopefully put this experience behind me for good.

Thanks again everyone.

[Andy Velez]

Good. So that's your plan, John. I certainly expect you to come out of this ok.

Stay productively busy during the waiting period and the weeks can pass more quickly than you may imagine at this moment.

Cheers,

[johno]

Guys,

Wanted to thank you all - the last few days have been much easier from an anxiety perspective since I have managed to believe that the condom I used hadn't slipped to expose the head of my penis. Thanks to all who commented.

Just one nagging doubt remains. The condom used for vaginal was previously in place when I was receiving a BJ. Is it possible there could have been some tiny tears from the lady's teeth. Also, if a condom burst with a fully erect penis I understand it's catastrophic but what happens if it bursts when the penis is not fully erect. Would you still know about it? Would it be obvious?

Appreciate your comments.

Johno.

[Andy Velez]

Whether from a blowjob or from intercourse when a condom breaks it becomes quite clear what has happened. It's like having a hula hoop with a flapping skirt on your  johnson.

As for whether you were fully erect or not that is irrelevant. Even if you weren't totally hard the head of your penis would still be covered. And even IF she was HIV positive, no, HIV was not going to slip and slide down into the condom and manage to get into your urethra. Really.

It's time to give it up, John.

[johno]

Thanks Andy.

[johno]

I've seen a number of threads recently that talk of the increased risk of exposure to uncircumcised men during unprotected vaginal. In my case vaginal was protected however can someone explain (cuirious) the mechanism for transmission through the foreskin? Are vaginal fluids just absorbed into the membrane? If so how much would it take? Or would it take a significant cut in the foreskin?

Appreciate your responses

[Andy Velez]

The inside of the foreskin has cells which are receptive to HIV transmission.

If you are uncircumcised this is irrelevant because the condom covered the head of your penis.

You need to give this a rest and get productively busy in your life on other matters. No kidding.

[johno]

Thanks Andy. I hear where you're coming from however I have managed to calm myself, get into a routine and not think too much about this. I appreciate I was also covered by a condom but was interested to know how one could get infected via the foreskin if intercourse was unprotected.

Can you comment any further on the science of transmission via this route?

[johno]

Can anybody offer any insight into the transmission via foreskin?

After being in a terrible state of panic for the first week after my incident I feel as though I have accepted that maybe I didn't have a risk after all. It almost feels wrong that I'm dismissing my circumstances so easily - probably because I don't feel very good about what I did. Previously I was adamant that I needed to test whereas now I'm having second thoughts.

The only thing that makes me feel I should test is the uncertainty  over whether I pose a risk to my partner. Anybody have any thoughts on this. Some of the previous comments stated no risk however I didn't feel it was as emphatic as I've seen in some of the other posts and this makes me think maybe there is still a small risk and that i should test.

Appreciate any further thoughts.

As always a big thank you to the experts for their time and patience. Certainly helping me to get through this.

Johno

[Andy Velez]

John, you being uncircumsized is totally irrelevant. You were wearing a condom. Your foreskin and urethra were completely covered. You weren't at risk for transmission.

I'm not willing to get into more conversation about phyisological matters since they don't matter in this case. Condoms do a very effective job of protection.

This is really all about head stuff, John. And if you can't let go of this concern then you are convincing me that you need to speak privately with a counselor or other such professional to deal with the emotional aspects of this incident.

Because this is NOT an HIV situation.

Really.

[johno]

Just tested negative for Chlamydia and Gonnorhea which was good news.

Have my good days and bad days at the moment but trying to cope - main fear still related to how effective the condom was in my case. HIV test scheduled for 3 weeks time.

Did have a PM form a member by the name Brian Davis who claims to have been infected through a herpes wound 17 years ago and suggests I need to get tested. Anyone heard of this individual? Any comments? In my case I'm pretty sure the herpes wound on my mouth didn't come into contact with vaginal fluid or if it did only very briefly.

Johno

[ACinKC]

You didnt have a herpes sore come into contact with anything even considered remotely infectious.  As far as him being infected that way, who knows.  Its an anectdotal story from someone you dont know.

[johno]

This PM has unnerved me a bit. I did have an oral herpes sore at the time and I don't think it came into contact with anything infectious. But I don't know for sure as I was drunk. If it did was it a risk? If not why not? Appreciate your thoughts.