Author Topic: Are vegan diets okay for HIV? (Read 35233 times)

Richie_R2 · « **Reply #50 on:** May 30, 2015, 06:43:27 pm »

Ah, I hadn't thought of that phrase in that way. I meant "lying to themselves" in terms of "I can just go on living this pretend life, sneaking around like it's something shameful I have to hide, having my Show Family, and eeeeverything will work out fine", know what I mean?

My family have mainly come around, over the years, even my fundamentalist parents. That had a lot to do with having met The Woman of My Dreams, whom they adore, and having a child with her, whom they adore, so at last they seem to recognize that "it's okay, he's NOT really gay!" Which, to be honest, upsets me. Like you said, okay to be HIV+, but not gay. What a world! My aunts have been pretty good, as have many of my cousins (I'm half-Cajun, so it's a BIG Catholic family, even though my mom "turned Baptist" when she married my Baptist father), but my two siblings still won't even speak to me. Nor about me. It's like I don't exist anymore, as far as they're concerned. That crushes me, every time I think of it, including now.

Joe K · « **Reply #51 on:** May 30, 2015, 06:56:27 pm »

I firmly believe that there is a part of me that allowed myself to become infected. It's a long story, but my experiences as a child, left me with enormous abandonment issues, so I tried to be as pleasing as possible to everyone. Deep inside, I knew that I would have to come out and by becoming poz, ALL the truth came out.

It's like knowing I needed a major jolt to blow me out of the closet... I just couldn't place the bomb directly. HIV became my catalyst... the good and a world of hurt.

Joe

Richie_R2 · « **Reply #52 on:** May 30, 2015, 06:58:06 pm »

Joe - This is some pretty deep stuff. I'm on parole so I can't, and I don't even know if you do, but I think this kind of conversation would best be had over a beer and a hookah-full of kush. Wow. Meanwhile, just... hugs, man. Hugs.

Joe K · « **Reply #53 on:** May 30, 2015, 07:17:17 pm »

It's not so much as deep, as simply a reflection of my life. It took me a very long time to see myself as I really am and I share my world, so that other people will realize that we all have our issues. With any luck, my experience helps to ease the pain of others, who, for no other reason, know they are not alone. I'm a firm believer in knowledge is power. The more we know, the less we have to fear.

Joe

wolfter · « **Reply #54 on:** May 30, 2015, 08:04:23 pm »

So sorry for usurpng this thread.I thoiught I was being respectful on something I had/have a little knowleddge about.

Modified to add that i WILL demenish each and every person who thought it cool to deride others. Been here for a while and this beyond what I comprehend. This entire thread makes me feel like a fraud

I won't let any door hit me.

Richie_R2 · « **Reply #55 on:** May 30, 2015, 08:45:30 pm »

Wolfter - Man I understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate that you tried to rein in the hostile attitude of Keepstrong, but when someone says something like this:

Quote

Vegans are extreme because it is extreme, the murdering of innocent animals. what right do humans have to kill and eat them.

I could go on and on but there isn't point on me wasting my time because Your deluded and need to open your mind up and i guess your past the age for making changes, i will let other people make there mind up. thank you

...you can expect me to react with verbal counterattack. They don't get to drop bombs like "murder" for this subject any more than they do for anti-abortion-rights conversations or anti-HIV+ persons conversations (I've seen both, online and in person), and then expect people not to counterattack. If they're going to call me a murderer, I'm going to point out when they do it in what sounds/reads like a third grade education. Especially when they just tortured-and-abused the word "science" moments before... a pet peeve of mine.

What I can't understand is why you are so upset. I get that you seem to have Vegan beliefs, but you also obviously aren't the type to belittle people for not having the same beliefs. We didn't and won't attack you simply for voicing your beliefs. You seem like a nice person, and it's no one's intent to run you off, only to find out why you're so upset about this. I wish you would explain.

By the way, good use of "usurping." Underused and most excellent word.

Almost2late · « **Reply #56 on:** May 30, 2015, 09:39:29 pm »

I think vegans are very compassionate people and although I'm not one, I've tried it and just couldn't shake off my desire for meat.. Whats most upsetting is the way these animals tortured to death before hitting the supermarkets..

"Warning, Do not watch if the torturing of animals upsets you"..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oTCA9V3eNs

I remember in another thread how people got up in arms over circumcision, so its understandable vegans having this view about animals.

Richie_R2 · « **Reply #57 on:** May 30, 2015, 11:29:47 pm »

Almost - If you see my earlier posts, you'll see I'm in total agreement with you (and with Vegans) on the horrors of our meat industry. Part of my old career as an environmental scientist / field biologist was to analyze the aquatic environs for impact based on runoff from those facilities. Didn't even get to go inside the buildings, and just the sounds and smells are enough to leave lingering nightmares, on occasion. However, I consider it a reason to utterly and immediately reform the system in its entirety, not a reason to abolish the overall practice... rather like my views on prison, come to think of it.

shaunsag · « **Reply #58 on:** May 31, 2015, 09:33:16 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on May 30, 2015, 03:38:58 pm

As a vegan have you cleared your closet out of leather shoes, belts, etc.? And don't forget to check all of your beauty regimen products for animal testing!

My grandmother who lives with me is a vegan, and she has plenty of leather materials in her room, she is not a animal rights activist, she is just a 100% vegan, Seventh Day Adventist.

wolfter · « **Reply #59 on:** June 01, 2015, 03:24:25 pm »

Quote from: Richie_R2 on May 30, 2015, 08:45:30 pm

What I can't understand is why you are so upset. I get that you seem to have Vegan beliefs, but you also obviously aren't the type to belittle people for not having the same beliefs. We didn't and won't attack you simply for voicing your beliefs. You seem like a nice person, and it's no one's intent to run you off, only to find out why you're so upset about this. I wish you would explain.

I'll try to state this eloquently without posting so quickly that I'm ashamed of my own spelling again.

What I had an issue with is that people were belittling another poster's beliefs. He might not have been gracious in his wording, but I found the comments over the top.

You don't have to believe in others' ideologies, but shouldn't we learn to respect them? I guess seeing a bunch of homos making fun of something they don't believe in just riled me a bit.

What could have been a respectful debate/conversation turned ugly for me.

Dachshund · « **Reply #60 on:** June 01, 2015, 03:50:17 pm »

Yep, that's what I got from it. The carnivores going straight for the throat. The OP asking a simple question, turned to blood-sport.

I've worked in the restaurant industry for years and have never found vegans to be the caricature many assume. Most call ahead to see if you can do vegan, but don't seem put off if you can't. I'm not vegan (too lazy) but I do think it makes the planet a healthier place.

initforlife · « **Reply #61 on:** June 01, 2015, 04:26:27 pm »

Just so y'all know I was only making humor with food not the person! I love y'all here and if you can't joke about food or anything else . then world Is a lot sadder then I thought.. I don't have many days I laugh anymore but once in awhile I see or read something that does make , but honestly if you thought it was against you personally then I say I'm sorry !

bocker3 · « **Reply #62 on:** June 01, 2015, 04:32:32 pm »

Quote from: Keepstrong on May 30, 2015, 02:46:11 am

Vegans are extreme because it is extreme, the murdering of innocent animals. what right do humans have to kill and eat them.

I could go on and on but there isn't point on me wasting my time because Your deluded and need to open your mind up and i guess your past the age for making changes, i will let other people make there mind up. thank you

What got me was Keepstrong's statements in earlier posts about meat being toxic to humans and that humans were herbivores - neither of which are true. Add to that is desire to "convince" others to go vegan and then this quote, which showed me that he has no openness to others. I tried to be respectful of his choice, but pointed out that he needn't try to convert others and that he really needs to not change facts to fit his view.

Granted - others probably did go over the top, but you have to admit that there is little more annoying than someone spinning the truth to try and convince others that their way isn't only, the best, it's really the only way.

BTW -- it wasn't the OP that set this off -- he started this thread and last posted in Jan. it was Keepstrong who took the more aggressive, "you're deluded" if you can't see why eating meat is bad, stance. It's his militancy that, I believe, smacked folks the wrong way. Be vegan if you want -- but let others eat as they choose.

Mike

Richie_R2 · « **Reply #63 on:** June 01, 2015, 04:44:18 pm »

I hear you, Wolfter. I think we've all made it pretty clear, if not at first, that we do not have a problem with Vegans or vegetarianism, and most of us even support it (including me) as a lifestyle choice. Me, I simply relayed my firsthand experience with other deliberately cruel statements Vegans have made to me, in their fanatical zeal, enough to give me a bad taste for the "religion" in general. I feel the same way about Christianity, thus my use of the term religion. If people want to dedicate their lives to it, I respect and even admire that, but the instant they start to attack or insult me because I do not share that belief, I will retaliate in kind. Simple as that. Fundamentalist Christians are particularly bad about saying nasty things to nonbelievers like me, then getting all butt-hurt when I say much less cruel things to them in return. It's called the Martyr Complex:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_complex Quote: "In psychology a person who has a martyr complex, sometimes associated with the term victim complex, desires the feeling of being a martyr for his/her own sake, seeking out suffering or persecution because it either feeds a psychological need, or a desire to avoid responsibility. In some cases, this results from the belief that the martyr has been singled out for persecution because of exceptional ability or integrity." (emphasis mine).

Quote

What I had an issue with is that people were belittling another poster's beliefs. He might not have been gracious in his wording, but I found the comments over the top.

Wait, what?! He wasn't "gracious in his wording"? He called us all murderers (!!!), and was extremely unkind in his phrasing overall. You should have been defending us, Wolfter, not him. Being a Vegan doesn't give anyone a right to attack others, nor does it make it an attack on you if I counterattack that person. I am glad you're a Vegan. Some of my favorite dishes ever cooked for me were made by Vegan chefs (oh, how I still fantasize about that Vegan carrot cake, made with no egg, no sugar... and a tofu frosting that was to die for!), and I hope to have more of the same in the future. I myself go one or two days a week where I deliberately cut out animal products and focus on fresh vegetables and fruits and greens; I made a veggie-and-peppers stirfry last night that was to die for!

Hope you're feeling better after your fall. I'm sorry you got hurt, but the telling of it in the other thread made me smile for a solid hour. You are your own pratfall instructor!

Richie_R2 · « **Reply #64 on:** June 01, 2015, 05:03:53 pm »

Sorry for the length of that. And for how serious I get about this... which makes me verbose.

Final note: I object to "murderer" for more than the obvious reason, as it's the main accusation made in court of a Poz person accused of non-disclosure (he was trying to MURDER the victim...) and I'm really touchy about it as I would never harm any person not trying to harm me first, plus as a scientist by training and profession prior to arrest, and still by philosophy, telling me I am closed-minded for disagreeing with someone is one of the most unkind things you can say to me. Period.

wolfter · « **Reply #65 on:** June 01, 2015, 05:11:53 pm »

Goodness gracious (as granny would have said), thought we were finally getting past it. I've had many people here I care about make funny comments; eat a burger already and such. It means nothing if tempered with humor, love and understanding.

Being assigned to manage the kitchen at the post has been fun. Everything from learning that if you eat meat, if shouldn't be recognizable to allowing bloody slabs of meat be served.

I don't make opinions and have never impressed upon others my dietary beliefs. Actually, it has been the other way around and I've never derided them and mostly and they reciprocate. I have seen our salad sales rise. Granted, I discount them a tad and throw a little animal parts on it. But it goes well.

As you all can tell, I'm not allowing this to piss me off again thereby ruining a great evening.

I relaxed with my evening meal wondering just how much of a jerk I am.

Richie_R2 · « **Reply #66 on:** June 01, 2015, 05:25:20 pm »

Good! Wolfter, you have a great evening.

wolfter · « **Reply #67 on:** June 01, 2015, 05:32:08 pm »

I'm certainly not vegan. I would have to rid my closets of too much.

Richie_R2 · « **Reply #68 on:** June 01, 2015, 05:39:15 pm »

Oh. Sorry! Vegetarian, then? That's a horse of a different color, as they say.

But we'd still love you, whichever you were. And now I want to make some food and bathe while eating it. That's a great idea!

wolfter · « **Reply #69 on:** June 01, 2015, 05:51:33 pm »

You still don't get it? It isn't what I believe but rather responses in the manner that I found beyond rude. And yeah, it is time for me clock out.

Jeff G · « **Reply #70 on:** June 01, 2015, 06:06:32 pm »

Long before this thread ever happened I was hoping to find a place in Memphis that served this . http://www.madmeatgenius.com/2010/02/roasted-pig-head.html

There is nothing wrong with eating meat and yes … I want to eat the face off a pig and sample his eyeballs . There is nothing wrong with being a vegan either .

Richie_R2 · « **Reply #71 on:** June 01, 2015, 06:11:43 pm »

Wolf - slow down, read again. Of course I get it. I never failed to get that you were interjecting on a general principle. What *I* objected to was that you called his stuff "worded badly" when he was using the most venomous things I could even imagine to say to someone, unless you added "baby" to "murderer", yet making fun of his grammar was somehow beyond the pale? That's why I said you should have defended us, not him. I did not attack him for his beliefs. I did not judge him for his beliefs. All I did was tell personal stories of encounters with zealots of that particular stripe... and was trying to express my delight that you were also a Vegan (so I thought) and yet able to not speak as a zealot.

In other words, I am saying that I don't judge anyone simply for belief. Whether or not you're vegan or vegetarian or a 100% carnivore, I don't care. I. Don't. Care!

I love, respect, and treat with kindness all people who are kind and thoughtful and broad-minded; I counterattack anyone who uses words as weapons of cruelty. The responses were "in the manner" of the attack that began it, and far, far less "rude" or cruel.

So, WHAT THE FORK ARE YOU SO SENSITIVE ABOUT?! Did you really expect us to let someone get away with that, in the name of "play nice, kids!", when they are calling us closed-minded murderers? Seriously!?! That's why I asked you to explain your personal level of sensitivity, since I didn't think it stemmed simply from your food-related beliefs. You're not going to sit there and condescend to me, "you still don't get it", because I won't play nice with people who are vicious to me, and expect me to feel bad because you are sensitive.

Sigh. This exhausts me. Now I really need food and a bath.

Joe K · « **Reply #72 on:** June 01, 2015, 07:01:58 pm »

I'm exhausted by this thread and the constant back and forth. Let's just drop the subject... please.

Joe

wolfter · « **Reply #73 on:** June 01, 2015, 07:09:53 pm »

wolfter · « **Reply #74 on:** June 01, 2015, 07:17:00 pm »

Quote from: Joe K on June 01, 2015, 07:01:58 pm

I'm exhausted by this thread and the constant back and forth. Let's just drop the subject... please.

Joe

is this as member or a moderator?

Joe K · « **Reply #75 on:** June 01, 2015, 07:32:11 pm »

Quote from: wolfter on June 01, 2015, 07:17:00 pm

is this as member or a moderator?

It's as both. Personally, I think some of you are beating a dead horse. As a moderator, I already got a modreport on this thread, so I can't separate my roles by commenting here. I believe that all that can be said, has already been said, more than once, so let's just let it go.

Joe

wolfter · « **Reply #76 on:** June 01, 2015, 07:46:44 pm »

Quote from: Joe K on June 01, 2015, 07:32:11 pm

It's as both. Personally, I think some of you are beating a dead horse. As a moderator, I already got a modreport on this thread, so I can't separate my roles by commenting here. I believe that all that can be said, has already been said, more than once, so let's just let it go.

Joe
ok

wolfter · « **Reply #77 on:** June 01, 2015, 07:51:05 pm »

Quote from: wolfter on June 01, 2015, 07:46:44 pm

Quote from: Joe K on June 01, 2015, 07:32:11 pm
It's as both. Personally, I think some of you are beating a dead horse. As a moderator, I already got a modreport on this thread, so I can't separate my roles by commenting here. I believe that all that can be said, has already been said, more than once, so let's just let it go.

Joe
ok

Yet I remember what was said just mere days ago. ;0

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Author Topic: Are vegan diets okay for HIV? (Read 35233 times)