UPDATE: Needle found in Sandwich on Delta Results in PEP taken by Passenger

[emeraldize]

I just watched an interview with a man who was on a Delta flight who (among six or so others on parallel Delta flights) ate a sandwich with a needle in it.

He stated because the needle apparently damaged or pricked the roof of his mouth he is now on Truvada (and he referenced the drug's recent approval by the FDA but did not say the acronym HIV)

Now this was a straight needle, like a sewing needle, not a hollow needle and this sandwich was prepared, refrigerated, and served well into the flight.

Transmission Quiz Question: If you were the doctor operating on behalf of Federal officials, would you have prescribed PEP?

[Common_ground]

Tricky....

As a doc I wouldnt, but as an official or airline rep I might have pushed the doc to prescribe it.

Spurs the fear of HIV transmission but at the same time IF by some one in a million chance he got infected things would get complicated.Further, did he ever had a HIV test done prior to this incident?

Whats your stance on this EM?
 

[Ann]

I've moved this thread into the Living forum. Off Topic is for subjects that have nothing to do with hiv.

Transmission Quiz Question: If you were the doctor operating on behalf of Federal officials, would you have prescribed PEP?

Absolutely not. Why prescribe PEP for a no risk incident?

Further, did he ever had a HIV test done prior to this incident?

PEP prescribing protocol demands the person is given a rapid test before the meds are dispensed. However, PEP protocol also demands there be a risk involved, so who knows what other aspects of the protocol they ignored.

[leatherman]

what a waste of Truvada when there has been an increase this month and now 2,030 people are on ADAP waiting lists throughout the country.

[Buckmark]

Fear overrides facts once again.  Let's just ignore the protocol and the actual risk. 

Here is the one published story I've been able to find so far:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/man-bit-needle-found-sandwiches-delta-flight-put/story?id=16792771#.UAVnoHmfY_c

The sandwich was refrigerated and there were probably at least 3 or 4 hours between the incident and the sandwich's original preparation.  HIV can't live outside the body for that long, but other viruses can.  if the passenger is so concerned they should be looking at other things in addition to HIV, e.g. hepatitis.

As Ann said, I'm sure both the airline and the caterer wanted to cover their asses.

I'll bet this guy is really pissed he paid to fly in business class (if in fact he actually paid for business class).

[denb45]

what a waste of Truvada when there has been an increase this month and now 2,030 people are on ADAP waiting lists throughout the country.

I have 10 extra bottles of  Truvada, I keep telling DOH/ADAP about this, but they keep refilling it every month, this overage happened about a yr and a half ago when my Doc reduced my  Truvada to every other day instead of daily due to stage 2 kidney disease 

and NO I don't think the PEP should have been given in this case 

[emeraldize]

Thanks Ann -- I thought it could qualify for Living With, but wasn't sure.

The Quiz Question format was cheeky. I'm disappointed actually and its another misleading bit of info out there.

I was jaw-dropped as I listened. It was an interview with passenger James Tonges and I have yet to find a video clip either.

I've looked for his reference to it in print and thus far, have not found it. I'll bet Delta is having GI issues that people might think they could get HIV-infected needles in their sandwiches.

[Joe K]

This is one of the dumbest things I have read in a very long time.  Being pricked with a solid needle in a sandwich and then given PEP?  Not a very bright doctor, but most probably it's the airline lawyers who prompted the CYA actions.

I don't see any connection with this affecting any ADAP programs.  It's not like they went to the local ADAP pharmacy to get the Truvada.

Joe

[leatherman]

It was an interview with passenger James Tonges and I have yet to find a video clip either.

video clips
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/man-bit-needle-found-sandwiches-delta-flight-put/story?id=16792771#.UAV3rmGrnHY

[emeraldize]

First article I've seen with the reference to Truvada in it...http://consumerist.com/2012/07/passengers-discover-sewing-needles-in-turkey-sandwiches-on-four-delta-flights.html

Joe - I agree re: doctor/lawyers -- sad and ridiculous, all at the same time.

[littleprince]

Doctors that do this should be investigated. Not only for potentially injuring their patient by giving them a fairly strong drug unnecessarily but also for the mental anguish they will allow to continue, again unnecessarily.

[Miss Philicia]

Isn't it possible that the patient was insistent?

[LM]

Now, why don't they interview a proper doctor who will say all of this is unnecessary and stupid? The media only reinforces the stigma of HIV.

Edit: Actually, they don't reinforce it, they were probably the ones that created it.

[Grasshopper]

I'll bet this guy is really pissed he paid to fly in business class (if in fact he actually paid for business class).

Ask him in say about 6 months if he's still pissed. With unlimited Free Delta First Class privileges along with a fat check and whoknows what else. 

[Grasshopper]

First article I've seen with the reference to Truvada in it...http://consumerist.com/2012/07/passengers-discover-sewing-needles-in-turkey-sandwiches-on-four-delta-flights.html

Joe - I agree re: doctor/lawyers -- sad and ridiculous, all at the same time.

Afterall it's America, with its litigation's. This guy could now possibly retire to St. Barth's, and have a house on the mainland.
Here in Holland all that is alien to us. The most you'll get is a flowerbouqet and a gift certificate  (figuratively speaking...I'd guess no more than €5000,- ?)

p.s.  Now that he's on Truvada, at least we won't be seeing him soon in the Am I Infected forum. Imagine the topic title : I was on this flight and ate a sandwich, am I at any danger ? 

[spacebarsux]

So much cynicism on this board.

Well, if he swallowed the needle, it would subsequently be ejected from his person in the form of excrement, rendering possible the risk of his anal canal being ruptured, thereby increasing the chance of infection if he’s a serial barebacking bottom, in which eventuality the Truvada should act effectively as PrEP.

It is plausible. 

[emeraldize]

Isn't it possible that the patient was insistent?

Yes, Miss P. I thought of that, too and I agree. However, even if it was he who was insistent a competent doc would have counseled him otherwise. Further, how and what he said in the interview makes me think it wasn't his idea.

I hope POZ takes this on as a story for their upcoming issue. Interview James Tonges, the airline, the Feds involved (if anyone will talk as this is now a Federal investigation of potential terrorism) -- try to uncover the root cause of the misinformation and at the same time provide a teaching moment.

[jkinatl2]

Ah, competent docs.

I look through Am I, and though that breed exists, it is exceedingly rare.

[Joe K]

So much cynicism on this board.

Well, if he swallowed the needle, it would subsequently be ejected from his person in the form of excrement, rendering possible the risk of his anal canal being ruptured, thereby increasing the chance of infection if he’s a serial barebacking bottom, in which eventuality the Truvada should act effectively as PrEP.

It is plausible. 

No cynicism here, just accurate infection information.  It was a solid needle, that had been in the sandwich for hours under refrigeration.  How could it ever present a risk of HIV infection?  Even if he swallowed it, there was no risk in the first place, so no PEP was required.  Given the sorry state of HIV awareness, it wouldn't surprise me that the patient insisted on the PEP, even though there never was any risk.

Joe

[spacebarsux]

No cynicism here, just accurate infection information.  It was a solid needle, that had been in the sandwich for hours under refrigeration.  How could it ever present a risk of HIV infection?  Even if he swallowed it, there was no risk in the first place, so no PEP was required.  Given the sorry state of HIV awareness, it wouldn't surprise me that the patient insisted on the PEP, even though there never was any risk.

Joe

I was making a cynical joke, Joe. I know there was no risk. It was meant to be funny. My sense of humour can be odd at times, soz.

[WillyWump]

Isn't it possible that the patient was insistent?

Or rather that his Atty (not the airlines atty) was insistent. Look , clearly this guy is gearing up for a huge lawsuit, he has already lawyered up as I saw a clip of him and his atty in front of the cameras on one of the news channels.  In order to pad the pain and suffering side of the suit the  atty would get him on Pep asap..."Your honor, my client was so scared by this he had to go on HIV treatment, and due to that he had to endure side effects.."etc, etc, etc.

So the fact that he had to go on PEP probably had little to nothing to do with the actual risk, but moreso with attorneys whether it be on the Airlines side or the Claimants side.

[Joe K]

I was making a cynical joke, Joe. I know there was no risk. It was meant to be funny. My sense of humour can be odd at times, soz.

So sorry Space.  Been busy moving and I'm just too tired to note the satire.   

Joe

[emeraldize]

Or rather that his Atty (not the airlines atty) was insistent. Look , clearly this guy is gearing up for a huge lawsuit, he has already lawyered up as I saw a clip of him and his atty in front of the cameras on one of the news channels.  In order to pad the pain and suffering side of the suit the  atty would get him on Pep asap..."Your honor, my client was so scared by this he had to go on HIV treatment, and due to that he had to endure side effects.."etc, etc, etc.

So the fact that he had to go on PEP probably had little to nothing to do with the actual risk, but moreso with attorneys whether it be on the Airlines side or the Claimants side.

Hey WW -- if you think the suit sitting next to him is his lawyer, it's not. I watched the interview this a.m. and that is another passenger who also got a needle in his sandwich. If you've seen a subsequent video with him and his lawyer, please share a link. Thanks much.

[jkinatl2]

So sorry Space.  Been busy moving and I'm just too tired to note the satire.   

Joe

Not to hijack but it would take a loaded gun to my head to make me move again.

[emeraldize]

Hijack welcomed and dittoed.

[mecch]

I found a fingernail in my crap ass Lufthansa meal.  Surely I deserve a two week detox cure at the best spa in Baden Baden to purify my delicate system from such toxic abomination.

[mecch]

The other day, someone sneezed on me on the bus ride home. I distinctly felt droplets.
Surely I deserve a course of blood cleansing and sheep placenta at the finest rejuvenation clinic in Montreux, as well as punitive funds to pay for a year of taxi service to the station during my daily commute.

[GSOgymrat]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised this is national headline news (NEEDLE SCARE!!  )  but honestly if I found a needle in my sandwich I probably would have thrown the needle away, checked the sandwich for more foreign objects and, if all was clear, kept eating. I once found a box staple in my salad and it didn't stop me.

No wonder I have HIV.

[Joe K]

Not to hijack but it would take a loaded gun to my head to make me move again.

This is our last move EVER, EVER, EVER.  Huge old factory building with lofts, in the centre of the Gay Village in Montreal.  1400 sf, 11 foot ceilings, $870 a month, rent controlled, renting it for life.

Joe

[WorriedWife]

I had to laugh when my local new covered this tonight they said the "man was prescribed HIV Preventive drug Truvada" LOL didnt this get approved yesterday. WOW that was fast was my thinking.

[denb45]

That is very good Joe    good for you guys best of luck w/ your new place 

[GSOgymrat]

This is our last move EVER, EVER, EVER.  Huge old factory building with lofts, in the centre of the Gay Village in Montreal.  1400 sf, 11 foot ceilings, $870 a month, rent controlled, renting it for life.

Joe

Sounds very nice! I hope the move goes smoothly.

[emeraldize]

Update: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/18/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-injured-idUS90393468920120718

I think Reuters has this story wrong because James, was interviewed as the Truvada-taker and the other guy (shown in the video clip) was the one whose son was noted as being on a different flight but also getting a needle. There's something fouled up--I'm going with the interview version because I heard them tell the story.

OKAY -- here's one that reflects what I saw and provides the father's name
http://www.examiner.com/article/man-who-bit-into-needle-sandwich-on-delta-flight-put-on-anti-hiv-medication

Looks like the headline was altered on the ABC piece -- it's now'Man Who Bit Into Needle Found in Sandwiches on Delta Flight Put on Anti-HIV Medication

I hope someone weighs in at the right level nationally on this story because there's no difference between a sewing needle poking the roof of your mouth, or any other chunk of skin and now we're going to see any needle, any time as a potential threat and the only winner in this instance is Gilead for loads of free marketing and false premise.

[emeraldize]

HOLY CRAP FOLKS...PLEASE READ THIS STORY...it arrived minutes ago

It gives the name of the doctor who's endorsing this regimen and it's got, no surprise, more misleading information.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/07/17/delta-needle-stick-victim-faces-sleepless-nights/

meet Dr. William Schaffner
http://www.newscertified.com/experts/William-Schaffner

[tednlou2]

I wonder whether he's really taking the med.  The cynical side of me thinks this is to build a better case for mental anguish.  And, the conspiracy theorist in me would think Gilead is behind this to boost sales for any cut, abrasion, etc. 

Tonight, NBC Nightly News' justice correspondent said, "...the anti-AIDS drug, Truvada."  Wow, that will make folks even more skeerd.  It's now jumped to full-blown AIDS. 

On a side note, I've been wondering about so many who will be using Truvada now.  I admit, 3+ years post dx, I'm still learning about all these meds and resistance profiles.  If someone was taking this drug for prevention measures and went on to become infected, would they deal with resistance from mono-therapy?  Or, is this not the case with this med?  Just something the approval from the FDA and now this story got me thinkin about. 

[leatherman]

HOLY CRAP FOLKS...PLEASE READ THIS STORY...it arrived minutes ago
http://www.newscertified.com/experts/William-Schaffner

wow! what an incredible fear-mongering story.

It had to be terrorism, like the tylenol event. It had to be on purpose, because pins are never in a food prep area. Some evil ("nasty") person did this on purpose. Although there wasn't any visible blood, there had to be a risk. Not only HIV but there might have been exposure to Hep B and C too! Tonges seemed calm earlier; but the doctor assures us that Tonges will "certainly" spend sleepless night and worried days for some time to come - maybe even during 3 months worth of Truvada. and OMG if he has symptoms of nausea and headaches he should rush to the ER!!    good grief! Nothing like trying to cause a panic is there.

"HIV can survive on a surface like a needle for a period of days, ...  The risk is small, but real"

"The deeper the inoculation the more likely the establishment of actual infection,” said Schaffner. “Likewise, the more blood-inoculated, the greater the risk.  In this case, the ‘stick’ was very slight, as far as I know"
Why is this doctor even discussing "inoculations" when the man only received a "stick"??

Good lord, AII? will be flooded in the next few days at this rate.

[Ann]

Hang on, the two passengers on the one flight where the pins were discovered knew each other before hand. They met on their way over to Europe and allegedly "didn't know" they were on the same flight back home. The doctor (the second passenger, not Dr William-Schaffner) then rang his family on another flight and discovered his son had also found a needle?

This sounds awfully fishy to me. Funny how all three people knew each other - I bet they cooked it up together for the laughs and $$$. I mean, why didn't it happen to anyone else - people who didn't know each other?

What a scaremongering load of shite.

Oh, and did anyone else notice the reference to him having to take meds for three months? Try four weeks, not that he actually has to take them for any length of time whatsoever.

I'm all for free speech, but articles like these are akin to yelling FIRE! in a crowded theater and should be against the law. It should be illegal to spread misinformation about a serious illness.

[Jeff G]

I just hope people are not going to be afraid to eat those delicious airline sandwiches anymore .

[denb45]

What a scaremongering load of shite.

Exactly my thought as well 

[Miss Philicia]

Hang on, the two passengers on the one flight where the pins were discovered knew each other before hand. They met on their way over to Europe and allegedly "didn't know" they were on the same flight back home. The doctor (the second passenger, not Dr William-Schaffner) then rang his family on another flight and discovered his son had also found a needle?

This sounds awfully fishy to me. Funny how all three people knew each other - I bet they cooked it up together for the laughs and $$$. I mean, why didn't it happen to anyone else - people who didn't know each other?

Which is why I've barely commented on this entire ruckus. Anyone recall the OMG-FINGER-IN-MY-WENDYS-CHILI bs from 2005?

[Ann]

Anyone recall the OMG-FINGER-IN-MY-WENDYS-CHILI bs from 2005?

No, do tell....

[Miss Philicia]

No, do tell....

linky

[Ann]

linky

ew

[emeraldize]

When I first heard the interview ysterday, the father/son thing seemed just TOO incredible to be true. Not a statistician, but I've watched too many meals passed out on international flights --plus in one report I read where sonny didn't turn in his needle. I'm sure the Feds will get to the core of it -- especially if it's a scam.

BUT what sickens me more is this Dr. William Schaffner whose credentials and position do not jibe with what he's credited with stating.

Either a reporter got it wrong or he needs to make this right. And all of this right at the head of the IAS kick-off -- we just start lookin' good, lifting the travel ban and and hosting IAS and wham!

[Solo_LTSurvivor]

Which is why I've barely commented on this entire ruckus.

Zactly.  I was waiting for the other shoe to drop and people to actually start realizing that there were two additional parties involved in this entire sensationalist story.

[emeraldize]

Turns out it was Tonges' son not Drogt's son making it even more suspicious.

[quote
author=Solo_LTSurvivor link=topic=44368.msg546356#msg546356 date=1342628731]

Zactly.  I was waiting for the other shoe to drop and people to actually start realizing that there were two additional parties involved in this entire sensationalist story.
[/quote] FYI: Two additional parties (totalling 3) have been involved from the start.

[Solo_LTSurvivor]

 FYI: Two additional parties (totalling 3) have been involved from the start.

True.  But no one was actually posting about the son of the man put on meds and/or the other adult (acquaintance) until late in the thread from my observation.  Everyone seemed to be concentrating on the man being put on Truvada as if there were no other people involved.

[emeraldize]

True.  But no one was actually posting about the son of the man put on meds and/or the other adult (acquaintance) until late in the thread from my observation.  Everyone seemed to be concentrating on the man being put on Truvada as if there were no other people involved.

Got it -- you're right -- I didn't include all the details in the initial post as I wanted people to be able to read stuff as it was churned out. Initially, it was made to appear on tv as if the son was Drogt's -- just lack of info or clarity or both.

HA! Edited to add: Here's a newer post that says it's Drogt's son---well, I give up
http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/morning_roundup/2012/07/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html

[littleprince]

Isn't it possible that the patient was insistent?

Although the Australian system is sometimes overly regulated this is one example of where it works. HIV antivirals can only be prescribed by specified doctors (ID, hospital ER, and some trained GPs). Even these doctors need to phone up and get government authorisation to prescribe every time and authorisation is only provided if the prescribing guidelines are met.

Although, the reasons behind this are probably more about the government not wanting to cover the $1500 of PEP every time a GP gives it out for no reason.

[Rhaegar]

I know Truvada is used for PrEP, but is it now standard treatment for PEP?  Everyone I've worked with that has had a needle-stick incident has always been given AZT and two other drugs.