POZ Community Forums
Off Topic Forums => Off Topic Forum => Topic started by: JeffInNYC on April 28, 2007, 10:22:23 am
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Is it just me or is it annoying hearing this message every time you use one of those touch tone voice response systems? Even at the ATM machine or the machine to buy my Metrocard, you have the option of choosing Spanish.
Now I do speak some Spanish, so I can use those functions if I choose to and I understand many people dont speak English, but is it right that they do this? If the official language here is English, is it right that these options are given?
I dont want to sound cold or prejudiced (which I guess I am to some degree), but I have a problem with this....Im not exactly sure why, who knows maybe it is prejudice, but I just wish everyone would speak English which is the official language in the US as far as I know.
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The conservatives on site will agree with you...the liberals will approach this with a more compassionate, nuanced perspective. Bottom line does it really have any major effect on your life? One more button to push, that's all.
Frankly I'm fed up with folks denigrating the glamorous life of illegals, folks accessing social services, etc...a smoke screen for racism.
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Well I dont think most illegals have a glamorous life. I also have no issue with folks assessing social services...thats what its there for. I do roll my eyes when I see people on line at the grocery store using their food stamps on nonessentials....but hey Im not in that situation so who am I to judge?
I guess I probably am racist...probably more so than I would care to admit and more so than Im even aware of.
And youre right, its just one more button to push...and I dont push it. So bottom line, it doesnt affect me at all. But why do I find it so damn annoying?
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What I find annoying is that it does not recognizes my insults. How difficult is it for a machine to understand "F... Y..." ? Or maybe it's the accent.
Milker.
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" I guess I probably am a racist"
That's why you find it so annoying...and what I find annoying about posts like this is that it allows people like Izprince to spew hateful, venomous bile. It opens the door for others to equate illegal immigration to positive people accessing social services. We have members using this very forum who believe their tax dollars should never be used to fund Ryan White or ADAP and they have said so.
Annoying is a fly buzzing around in your house that you can't swat...and that ain't worth posting about either.
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The conservatives on site will agree with you...the liberals will approach this with a more compassionate, nuanced perspective. Bottom line does it really have any major effect on your life? One more button to push, that's all.
Frankly I'm fed up with folks denigrating the glamorous life of illegals, folks accessing social services, etc...a smoke screen for racism.
I am not convinced that a liberal has a more nuanced view -- perhaps more compassionate, but it is just as plain and absolute as the conservatives you mention (although clearly opposite). I see nothing wrong with expecting immigrants (legal or illegal) to assimilate to the country they have come to -- a view which would include Americans moving abroad. Of course, one can not expect that to happen instantly, so there is a need for some multilingual help in the beginning. If there isn't a push to learn the language of your new country, then we can run into issues (ahhh... there is some of that nuance). You see, not everyone who disagrees with something that involves another race or another sexual orientation is necessarily racist or homophobic. I think we are all a bit to free to throw those labels around. People (on both sides) become so entrenched in their way of thinking and so convinced that their way is the one and true "right way" that they lose the ability to even consider another position in a rational way.
Now, I do believe racism is alive and well in this country and that a whole bunch of people have varying degrees of it. Consider -- when one equates the denigration of illegals with racism, there is an implication that only "non-whites" would be illegals, one could argue this exhibits a bit of racism itself!
Mike
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English is the"official" language? ???
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Personally, I think the whole "English only" thing is more about paranoia than anything else. People get really paranoid when they can't understand people around them and assume they must be up to something sinister.
I'm glad that I don't have any issues with people speaking different languages or providing services in different languages. It neither picks my pocket nor gores my ox, so why should I care.
I guess some of that comes from the fact that I spent some time in Europe and was absolutely amazed at the number of people who spoke English as a second language which is in sharp contrast to the United States whereas the vast majority of Americans barely have a grasp of their own language.
Perhaps if we put more effort in learning various languages ourselves, there wouldn't be so much of that bizarre offense taken at someone else speaking a different language in the US.
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I would happily debate the issue of immigration and assimilation into our country...it's been going on for over two hundred years.
However, this topic had nothing to do with immigration...it was about someone being annoyed because of perceived inconveniences. I think anyone reading my post in reference to the topic would deduce I was talking about people of color...heck Jeff admitted to his own racism. Typically people are able to nuance the topic bemoaning reverse racism, which in reality doesn't exist. I know, go ahead and give me all your anecdotes proving me wrong.
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However, this topic had nothing to do with immigration...it was about someone being annoyed because of perceived inconveniences.
To be honest, I just hate those telephone menu trees altogether regardless of the language question. While at times they are useful, at other times, when you just want to speak to a human being, having to navigate the menu to actually speak to human being is just ridiculous.
What ticks me off the most is when you call up a customer service line of some sort and have to sit through a commercial before being offered any menu choices at all (i.e., "Did you know that identity theft strikes one in 5 people? Please speak to one of our customer service representatives today about enrolling in our identity protection plan for a low introductory rate"). I keep expecting them them to say "Plus if you act now, we'll throw in a Brazilian Power Crystal, a 50 dollar value, absolutely free!"
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My ex-mother in law was born here and spoke very little English (she was raised in Texas among Spanish speaking people). I don't like discrimination based on anything! I guess what I have to ask myself is "how important is it?"
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However, this topic had nothing to do with immigration...it was about someone being annoyed because of perceived inconveniences. I think anyone reading my post in reference to the topic would deduce I was talking about people of color...heck Jeff admitted to his own racism.
Whoa...hold on there Judgemental Judy. I think we ALL are racist to some degree...you dont know me personally, but Im a very nice guy and I have always given individuals a chance regardless of race, sex orientation, etc.
I cannot control how Izprince or anyone else spews hate. This is merely a topic I have posted because I find it very annoying to hear the messages. Period. I have friends in other countries who speak a minimum of 3 languages....some of my friends there even speak 5! I think its actually pretty cool. I just find it annoying that everywhere I turn, youre given the option to NOT use English...whether its on the phone, at the ATM machine at the DMV, whatever.
At work I have many colleagues who are from foreign countries. When they speak to each other in their native tongue, when its of a personal nature, I think is fine. However, throughout the course of the day Im hearing all these individuals speaking nothing but their native tongue - whether it be Spanish, German whatever. I think its unfair to the rest of the staff - for many reasons. And as a manager, I can tell you I have had this complaint come to me many times. So what do I tell the employees coming to me to complain? Do I call them racist?
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From the Anarchist perspective:
Drive to NH, Vermont or Maine and the official signs welcoming you are written in both English and French. And lest anyone think this is some fuzzy, squishy multi-culti development of the Clinton years, it's not. I remember them as a child. My grandfather spoke no English until his 20s although he was born in Brewer, Maine.
And the Broward County Transit bus that I take most everyday has canned announcements for each stop in two languages: English and Creole (which really is Ebonic French), but no Spanish, although I hear people speaking it all the time.
The US is a country of immigrants and heterogenous cultures. Street signs in the various Chinatowns I've frequented are bilingual, and everyone goes to the various Italian districts for the best canneloni and other treats. Gay ghettos have the nicest cafes and best selection of porn in their video stores.
This is not harmful, It represents our principal strength as a nation. It should be cherished.
Frankly, Jeffie, I'm dismayed by your premise. I thought you thought more out of the box than this.
Brent
(Who is multilingual himself)
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I would happily debate the issue of immigration and assimilation into our country...it's been going on for over two hundred years.
However, this topic had nothing to do with immigration...it was about someone being annoyed because of perceived inconveniences. I think anyone reading my post in reference to the topic would deduce I was talking about people of color...heck Jeff admitted to his own racism. Typically people are able to nuance the topic bemoaning reverse racism, which in reality doesn't exist. I know, go ahead and give me all your anecdotes proving me wrong.
I don't need to debate immigration and assimilation with you -- but for the record, YOU were the one who first brought up illegals in this thread, so don't try to use the argument that someone else went off topic. In reality, I am probably not far off from your overall position -- I did want to point out, however, that you equated illegals with racism. You may have expected others to "deduce" that you meant only those of color, but you did not state that. I did not take anything out of context, I simply read your words. My main point is that people, in general, are too quick to throw labels like racist around (yes, I know Jeff said that perhaps he was prejudiced - you mentioned racism first). Just because someone finds something annoying, does not necessarily make him racist. I certainly do not know him enough to know if he is racist -- so, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Nor do I really think that you are racist, but I do think you are too quick to classify others.
Now, on to the topic -- most of these language choices exist because it is good for business, there isn't any sense of altruism going on, it is about the bottomline. Does it annoy me, not really -- it would be foolish for businesses to write off a large segment of the population.
Mike
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What's even more amusing is complaining about the irritation of bilingual information services on a site that has an "En Español" link in the top left corner of the menu.
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You miss my point completely...I was trying to point out that topics like this allow others to use it as a smokescreen to present their racist views. Is Jeff a racist...I don't know? Having read his posts in the past I'm inclined to think he isn't...I also applaud him for being honest about his feelings. That said, nitpick my words any way you want...but I know you know what I meant and I will leave it at that.
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I think it makes us look a wee bit backward to get up in arms about a second language option. They have multiple language options all over the place in Europe. And it isn't just about opening the gates wide open for people to get by without having to learn the official language when they live here and all that. I think it could also be a recognition that some people from other countries, ya know...visit here occasionally and may not have mastered the mother tongue. If anything, we should probably have a few more options up there- what with us being this big melting pot & all.
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At work I have many colleagues who are from foreign countries. When they speak to each other in their native tongue, when its of a personal nature, I think is fine. However, throughout the course of the day Im hearing all these individuals speaking nothing but their native tongue - whether it be Spanish, German whatever. I think its unfair to the rest of the staff - for many reasons. And as a manager, I can tell you I have had this complaint come to me many times. So what do I tell the employees coming to me to complain? Do I call them racist?
When I visit Austin, TX for work, I have two colleagues that speak my native language there. We speak French together, as long as there is not a visible audience that wouldn't understand what we say. I wouldn't even try to speak French to hide anything to my other colleagues, that would be stupid, I wouldn't know who can understand and who cannot. Rest assured, you can tell your employees that they can ignore the chatter, it's totally irrelevant for them and they would be bored if they could even understand. Tell them it's background noise, just ignore it.
Now if people continue talking in their native tongue with an audience around, then I can understand, it's a lack of respect.
Milker.
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You miss my point completely...I was trying to point out that topics like this allow others to use it as a smokescreen to present their racist views. Is Jeff a racist...I don't know? Having read his posts in the past I'm inclined to think he isn't...I also applaud him for being honest about his feelings. That said, nitpick my words any way you want...but I know you know what I meant and I will leave it at that.
I may be missing the point too...Im very book smart but sometimes I cant think outside the box as one of my hunky compadres has said.
Thank you Doxie for your words and I apologize if I got a bit snippy.
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If I were to travel to France or Italy or Spain I would surely appreciate an "English" language option at the ATM or other coin/card operated dispensers/machines. I speak English and a little French. I think it's a good idea to offer several language options here in the US.
More and more businesses are incorporating "global thinking" into their company/corporation policies. i.e. Banks installing ATMs with multi-language options.
It's what we are going to experience more and more of in the years ahead.
xxx,
Mike
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Now if people continue talking in their native tongue with an audience around, then I can understand, it's a lack of respect.
Milker.
This happens ALL the time at work....the other nurses speak in Tagalog quite a bit. It's not that I feel they are talking about me (as one can always tell), but, hell, I'd like to join in the conversation too.
And just for the record, I know that no one asked, but i've always thought every class in every school should be bilingual (trilingual?) from the 1st grade upward...i mean we all go to school to learn new things, verdad?
Abrazos,
John
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Jeffy,
As a gay man from a non-anglo background, you should know better than to post such racist clap-trap.
MtD
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This happens ALL the time at work....the other nurses speak in Tagalog quite a bit. It's not that I feel they are talking about me (as one can always tell), but, hell, I'd like to join in the conversation too.
And just for the record, I know that no one asked, but i've always thought every class in every school should be bilingual (trilingual?) from the 1st grade upward...i mean we all go to school to learn new things, verdad?
Abrazos,
John
I've always thought that at a bare minimum, the sign alphabet should be taught when the letters are being verbally learned. It would help dissolve one major communication barrier right there. Good luck getting any ideas like that through, eh?
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Well, dear friends,
I am a bit surprised reading all the posts under this thread...
I am spanish, from Spain, Europe. In my country we speak 4 different languages. Castilian spanish is the official one in all of the country, but we have many regions with their own language and, there, castilian is just cooficial.
Sometimes this supposes some problems, but convivence is possible and it works very well.
Watching a bit wider, if I move 300 miles west, I have Portugal, if I move 300 miles north, I have our delightful neighbours, the frenchies, if I look to the horizon in the northern coast, my eyes will reach the british coasts... maybe by the Wales part, where they speak not english, but gaelic, a beautiful ancient language from which derive many names of little towns and cities in the US...
In Madrid, Bilbao, Barcelona and other spanish cities, we have indicators in english, japanese, german, french... in the streets, in airports, metro stations, turistical places... non of those are oficial or cooficial languages in Spain.
A 15% of our population is composed of migrants from Africa, Eastern Europe, Laitn America, China, India... walking in the streets you can hear quechua, cantonese, english, french, arabic, russian, romanian... and, of course, all the accents and forms of spanish.
We do not feel our languages menaced.
I think the issue is maybe that hispanic culture is strong enough to not being submerged or assimilated into english in the US. And this is the first time that such a thing happens. Italians, germans, polish, jewish, russians... all the other european migrants that came before to the US loosed their language by the second generation.
The fact that this will not happen with latin american and their spanish is new to you, and maybe taking a look to the old Europe could be helpful. I think spanish will become a part of US culture and a powerful tool for communication, commerce and convivence. In the end, the US have had always, since the begining, a spanish soul.
The best way to protect a culture, a language, is opening it. That's why english language has become such a powerful tool for all. In many ways, english is not only your language, but an universal one.
Since someone attemps to preserve it or to keep it free of contamination, english will not be anymore an universal cultural tool, and its preeminence will be lost, just like happenned to latin, german, french... they just remain as vehicular languages in some specific areas but, before, they where universal tools of culture, sciencie, business... just as is english now.
Just thing for a while what will happen with US economy if we, the 5.200 million people that do not have english as a mother tongue decide to switch off the english language option. English is a magnificent tool, but don't forget that we are very generous to you using it.
Saludos,
:-)
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Well said, alberche. Where I'm at, when you look at the job postings, it always says "bilingual preferred" (and they're talking about Spanish).
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Well it is time for a latin to say something...
first i know why those messages bother you... because you are a square minded intolerant.
Funny that an hiv poz who knows what is to be discriminated is still able to discriminate others.... looks like someone has not learnt that much after all....
Perhaps you should take a look at your own experience and see how it feels to find no help, none to talk to, that might open a whole new world for you. If spanish options are offered is not your business!! Those options are for me, not for you. You stick to the single language you know and let us live in peace.
Plus let me tell you that most of the "anglo" people there are not purely americans, remember aborigens were the owner of that land before your white ass arrived. They are the real americans. Don't feel so proud of yourself, you are in fact a descendent of inmigrants too. And English was not the original language anyways.... so? why do you complain if you are not able to look at your story and see things as they really are.
And if one day a latin person discriminate you for being poz.... then don't complain you both will be just the same.
Y si te molesta el español, que pena... a mi no me importa :) aprende a respetar a los otros para que alguien encuentre una razón de respetarte.
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no entiendo cual es el problema con un boton que dice "english" o español...te tarda 1 segundo a escuchar esas opciones y otra segundo a apretar el boton....No entiendo el racismo porque todos somos humanos lo unico que cambia es el idioma y la ubicacion geografica.....
A mi tampoco me importa que te molesta porque eres un poco ignorante y cerrado de mente....pero igual espero que cambias tu punto de vista eventualmente y te deseo buenas cosas en esta vida :-* ;D
-josh
(who wishes he knew a 3rd language)
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XY, you are absolutely entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to start flaming with name calling like "square minded intolerant."
Believe me, I appreciate your feelings about this issue, but the flaming has to stop right now.
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Jeff, I've been watching this thread carefully because from the moment you began it I thought it was very possibly going to become explosive.
I suspect you really know it now or knew that when you wrote this:
"I dont want to sound cold or prejudiced (which I guess I am to some degree), but I have a problem with this....Im not exactly sure why, who knows maybe it is prejudice, but I just wish everyone would speak English which is the official language in the US as far as I know."
What you have expressed is really a classic prejudiced viewpoint by someone who knows it is just that, also "knows better" and who nevertheless wants to find a socially acceptable way of having that prejudiced opinion hold sway.
Dealing with prejudice is one of the most challenging problems we live with and it is incumbent upon each of us to find ways to resolve it peacefully and creatively in our daily lives. You have a choice. You can continue to nurse your resentment OR you can take a fresh look at what's going on within you about this issue you've raised.
From my experience that means ultimately letting go of the "us" and "them" attitude and accepting we're all a part of "us."
Lastly, I ask you to please not defend yourself. That will only maintain the status quo. I urge you to take a few breaths and just consider what people have said.
All in all there's been remarkable forbearance shown to you about this subject so I am asking the same of you.
Cheers,
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Well it is time for a latin to say something...
Funny that an hiv poz who knows what is to be discriminated is still able to discriminate others.... looks like someone has not learnt that much after all....
Jeff in NYC is NOT HIV positive. We need to clear that up .
Ray
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Wait a second.....................Jeff IS NOT HIV positive???? I'm confused?
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Andy, i didn't want to flame him by calling him "square minded intolerant" i said it in a latino friendly way :) ....i swear it!
Other thing,... is he is not positive, i don't really care, the point is.. if he is here for longer than me... he should have learnt something... shouldn't he?
Cuidense, les envio un abrazo, me voy a la playa!!!!
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XY, thanks for the hugs, papi.
I wish I was headed to the beach today too. I'll go with some sunshine here in NYC.
Cheers,
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Actually, hearing the spanish version does not bother me. To be honest, I am kinda jealous of those who understand spanish. I am half Puerto Rican and can only remember the spanish I was taught in school. When I went to Puerto Rico some years back, I was in heaven and very anxious to learn spanish. Once I started learning it, cause I was there 3 different times for about 3 months each time, I lost it when I came back home because there was no one to speak to.
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If it bothers you so much, learn the language then you will understand it. This whole english only sh1t has got to go! Besides you are in NYC a HUGE tourist destination you must cater to those travel dollars.
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I went to an exhibit at the Virginia Historical Society yesterday... it was on Jamestown, Santa Fe, and Quebec... and was all about the colonization of North America in the 17th century. The entire thing was in English, Spanish, and French... and one part of it was about the interaction between the three cultures. This mixing has been going on for four hundred years, and I see no evidence of it stopping now.
Personally, I like it.
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Oh, and I can't see where it's been mentioned in so many words here... but the United States doesn't have an official language.
That thing about it almost being German is a myth, but yeah... we don't have one.
Hawaii has English and Hawaiian as the official languages.
There are some states that have English as the official state language. Florida is one. California is another. Texas isn't. Weird.
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I'm with Queen, I get envious because I only know English...
and fried, I did take french in high school - 3 years of it. My poor French teacher, Mme. Bedell, was constantly saying "Alain, Alain, Alain, you must speak faster!"
Par-ley Vous Y'all ??
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My dear grandmother spoke seven languages. She was from Central Europe, from an area that was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire under the rule of the Hapsburgs.
The seventh and last language she learned was English after she emigrated to the U.S. She had a delightful accent. She also refused to teach me any of the languages she spoke, although I managed to pick up a few words of Polish and Slovakian. (Very few).
I regret this to this day. What I wouldn't give to be multilingual. As it is, I can get by in Spanish, although those who hear me speak it say I speak like a Cuban. ???
I live in the state that was and, I think, still is the only officially bilingual state in the union. Here, all legal documents and published legal announcements must be in English and Spanish. Its been that way for decades.
Our differences make us more versatile, more adaptable and have been one of the strengths of this nation.
Oh, by the way, I hate telephone messaging systems period.
HUGS,
Mark
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In Spain we don´t have the English option.
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The liberals are mostly disillusioned college students who know precisely jack and shit about the real world (and Jack left town), or politicians trying to make all the illegals legal so they can get more votes.
Now I for one, refuse to learn Spanish, because I would not move to a Spanish speaking country, attach myself like a barnacle to their social welfare programs, and then demand that they all learn English.
I do speak some Spanish, but I just ignore them until they speak English to me.
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Hola, Ryan.
How do I say this?
Tu eres no caliente!
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Hola, Ryan.
How do I say this?
Tu eres no caliente!
Ladies and gentlemen, let me present a probable likeness of Thunter34:
(http://www.houseoffusion.com/users/images/fat_guy.jpg)
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The liberals are mostly disillusioned college students who know precisely jack and shit about the real world (and Jack left town), or politicians trying to make all the illegals legal so they can get more votes.
Now I for one, refuse to learn Spanish, because I would not move to a Spanish speaking country, attach myself like a barnacle to their social welfare programs, and then demand that they all learn English.
I do speak some Spanish, but I just ignore them until they speak English to me.
Pray tell, how much of the world can a 23 year old Walmart worker in Huntington, IN really know?
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Ladies and gentlemen, let me present a probable likeness of Thunter34:
(http://www.houseoffusion.com/users/images/fat_guy.jpg)
How do you say "pleasingly plump" en español?
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sigh
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English which is the official language in the US as far as I know.
incorrect
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Pray tell, how much of the world can a 23 year old Walmart worker in Huntington, IN really know?
I've been quite a few things, and Wal-Mart is really kind of like a backup job right now while I'm in school, my boss called me and asked me to come in today at like 8 AM, and I just said "Fuck Wal-Mart" and hung up, honestly I don't give a shit if they fire me, the job means next to nothing to me, and it's just something I'm soldiering through for a few more weeks.
Now, as for the 23 year old part, I guess you consider being racist something really, truly awful, but have no problem discriminating over age, hypocritical, but oh well, what can you expect from old people?
I've been living on my own for over 7 years, in that time I've lived in three states and 5 cities, I lived in Indianapolis and Muncie, Indiana for a couple of years, I lived in Dayton, Ohio, Ann Arbor, Michigan.
For the most part, what I've seen of most minorities, they fit their stereotypes pretty well, I've seen blacks and mexicans out in the street shooting each other, mugging people, etc, most of them don't even have a desire to better themselves even if they do have the ability.
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incorrect
Technically there is no official language in the US, so I suppose we're all supposed to learn 100+ languages so that no matter who falls off the banana boat, we can accommodate them.
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I've been quite a few things, and Wal-Mart is really kind of like a backup job right now while I'm in school, my boss called me and asked me to come in today at like 8 AM, and I just said "Fuck Wal-Mart" and hung up, honestly I don't give a shit if they fire me, the job means next to nothing to me, and it's just something I'm soldiering through for a few more weeks.
Now, as for the 23 year old part, I guess you consider being racist something really, truly awful, but have no problem discriminating over age, hypocritical, but oh well, what can you expect from old people?
I've been living on my own for over 7 years, in that time I've lived in three states and 5 cities, I lived in Indianapolis and Muncie, Indiana for a couple of years, I lived in Dayton, Ohio, Ann Arbor, Michigan.
For the most part, what I've seen of most minorities, they fit their stereotypes pretty well, I've seen blacks and mexicans out in the street shooting each other, mugging people, etc, most of them don't even have a desire to better themselves even if they do have the ability.
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
So touching. I had to buy more Kleenex.
Milker.
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You have also been banned and will be again.
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How do you say "pleasingly plump" en español?
I would say "cerdo gordo grande"
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milker, Bettytacy, philly267, belief, Dachshund, libvet, TheKurgan, RapidRod, Bucko, Bartro, thunter34, BooBoo and 22 Guests are viewing this board.
Milker.
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You have also been banned and will be again.
I can keep coming back as much as I want, thats the part they don't seem to understand.
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Sad, ain't it... this need for attention. Google "izanbardprince" and you'll see a trail of desperation and destruction on The Series of Tubes. I know it's boring in a trailer park but really, this is a bit much.
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I can keep coming back as much as I want, thats the part they don't seem to understand.
Why don't you just go jack off somewhere else!
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I can keep coming back as much as I want, thats the part they don't seem to understand.
They?
We understand that protecting an internet site is not easy. However, maybe, maybe, one day, you will realize the burden you're putting on those forums, just because of your stupid attitude. We are here because we have a devastating virus, but you don't seem to understand that. One day you will. Maybe when you get infected? I wish you not. But please step back and use the cells that are left in your brain and think about it. There are many other forums where you can rant about what your beliefs are. We are HIV positive, we have people on here that have been struggling with AIDS and thank God are still alive, so please let us deal with our problems, and if you have an ounce of dignity, leave the forums.
Milker.
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Sad, ain't it... this need for attention. Google "izanbardprince" and you'll see a trail of desperation and destruction on The Series of Tubes. I know it's boring in a trailer park but really, this is a bit much.
qft.
and milker: an ounce of dignity is probably asking too much.
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Hey everyone -- Izprince is very busy these days creating multiple accounts to spam these forums with his hate. Please help us in the following ways:
1) Immediately report his posts using the "Report to Moderators" links.
2) Ignore his posts!! This is very important! Do NOT engage him in any way. Do NOT try to argue with him -- it only encourages him to post more.
Thanks for your cooperation.
TheKurgan and JacobKell have been banned.
Peter
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Thanks, Peter! :)
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izprince said he has HIV. He refuses to go to a doctor though because (please take out tin foil hat) he thinks the government will tag with "HIV" or something and come after him. I can't recall his reasoning exactly, but it was something not particularly compelling. I guess when he's down to 5 t-cells he'll pop in the emergency room and let the tax payers fund his negligence.
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Hey everyone -- Izprince is very busy these days creating multiple accounts to spam these forums with his hate. Please help us in the following ways:
1) Immediately report his posts using the "Report to Moderators" links.
2) Ignore his posts!! This is very important! Do NOT engage him in any way. Do NOT try to argue with him -- it only encourages him to post more.
Thanks for your cooperation.
TheKurgan and JacobKell have been banned.
Peter
:)
Philly, Daschund, Thunter34, Bettytacy and myself will write the next Agatha Christie Classic :)
Milker.
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izprince said he has HIV. He refuses to go to a doctor though because (please take out tin foil hat) he thinks the government will tag with "HIV" or something and come after him. I can't recall his reasoning exactly, but it was something not particularly compelling. I guess when he's down to 5 t-cells he'll pop in the emergency room and let the tax payers fund his negligence.
Well I hope it's not true. And if you read his late posts he saw a doctor. I believe he has not tested hiv positive, and he never saw a doctor. Maybe he's poz. But I don't think he tested.
Milker.
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I honestly don't think Ryan was ever poz. Posting on an HIV support website kinda demands one bear the mantle, that's all.
Brent
(Who suspects the motives of others with regularity)
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I just located his entire genealogy, full name, brother's name and parents names
I LOVE TEH INTRANETS
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It's just a little un-nerving to me to have to deal with his berating comments all the time. Does this regularly happen on here? I mean, I know I'm fairly new to this site, but I'm definitely not new to HIV. I tested poz in '88 and, believe me, I've heard all the chides. I live in Indiana also, and I'm actually embarrased to say that, being that Ryan lives here also. However, I don't live in a trailer (thank God) and I border South Bend, which I'm sure is much more "happening" than Hunington. :D Thanks, guys, for the support I've already gotten on here. ;)
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he is NOT positive. I have multiple links to prove it.
And yes, Ryan, if you read this, you left so much footprint that it's easy to figure out who you are.
Milker.
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It's just a little un-nerving to me to have to deal with his berating comments all the time. Does this regularly happen on here? I mean, I know I'm fairly new to this site, but I'm definitely not new to HIV. I tested poz in '88 and, believe me, I've heard all the chides. I live in Indiana also, and I'm actually embarrased to say that, being that Ryan lives here also. However, I don't live in a trailer (thank God) and I border South Bend, which I'm sure is much more "happening" than Hunington. :D Thanks, guys, for the support I've already gotten on here. ;)
Oh Betty, you haven't seen the best yet :D
It can be worse LOL. Ask about IHH LOL
Milker.
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Betty, it's been happening a bit lately. He's only the latest. A month ago we had the pleasure of The Unholy Trilogy that lasted about 3 months, but Jesus Loved Us just enough to finally go away. Probably to play with Keisha.
I was even the brunt of a nasty blog that was posted for a few hours (I didn't see it but others did) with some kind of picture trashing me and some other board members. All this from someone who freaked out when he was diagnoses and would post 20 thread each day and we'd all religiously try and help calm him down. Yeah, that's the thanks we get around here for lending support. I guess we're all just suckers or something.
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Betty if you have no idea of what Philly is talking about, and wondering about his avatar email me ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!
Milker
edited for language.
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All said and done, he (Ryan) is really just a trivial thing. Annoying, yes..but I'm not the least bit "worried" about him.
"A tale told by an idiot...full of sound and fury...signifying nothing."
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Mamasita, qué quilombo!!!!
English button would say: Holy mother, what a mess!!!
In the end, this thread have been funny indeed. But it has also illustrated a big issue nowadays: migration, cultural differences, linguistic barriers... and discrimination, fear to others, to different people in the end. We are not out of that, this affects also us, HIV+ people.
Someone has talked about social protection and the use migrant do of social help and economical aids... well, maybe if migrants were living in the same conditions than natives would need much less or none social fund support.
We should also think about that most of us, comfortably living in our own country, would refuse to do some jobs such as picking up fruits, farming, cleaning, being waitress or waiters, taxi drivers, construction workers, sex workers, night shifts, dangerous works and so on... and, if someones of we do, we know then, how hard is living that way
For sure, very few of us would accept to work by the same salary and under the same conditions than migrants do. In many ways, they are funding our economies because a lot of private companies, big and small, are taking good benefit of workers doing the job with much less rights and gaining much less money, and much less demanding because they're vulnerable. That's in the end, in fact, a fund transference to private sector in the form of lowcost protection-lacking workforce.
We should also think why a person leaves his/her country, with nothing in the hands, under their own life risk, leaving family and friends back, just to go to another country to work very badly paid and being discriminated.
Why do people crosses oceans, deserts, walls to get some money? I am afraid they do have a very good reason to do this. And this is not new, this has been happening always in the past and will happen again in the future. Maybe in a couple of centuries people from New York or Chicago will cross the mexican, or even the chinese borders, to search for a job or for better life conditions, or just simply to keep alive... who knows!!!
In my case, my family migrated to Latin America from Spain after spanish civil war and 2nd world war, due to both, political and economical reasons, and then they came back to Spain when things got better, and know, many years after, we are seeing a lot of people coming here, from the same countries that hosted us in the past, to search for a better life... History has its own swings and we never now in wich situation we will be in the future.
And, about social care and funding, we should also think about us. Maybe a lot of people is thinking about why help, fund and spend money to take care of HIV people. Maybe a lot of people could be thinking we are also taking profit of social programmes and we do not deserve it. And we all know very well we need or may need help and, of course, we do deserve the help and support, just simply because we have also contributed to help and support the others.
hugs,
:-)
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Alberche, the big problem in the US is simply that we do not have a "guest worker" program like they do in other countries, so that migrant workers are documented, there's an element of security, etc. and then the migrant can return to his home country easily. Canada has something like this and I believe most other Western countries do too. Of course, the US has a bit of a different situation in that we share a long +3000 km border with another country that has a wildly different economic situation.
Mexico has the highest GDP in Latin America, yet so many of their country men are lured to the US. That's what folks here seem to forget: LURED. The US economy has propped itself up for a century with this unofficial work force that it feels it can tap into whenever it is need for menial work. It's a large reason that our economy does well, but the conservatives here freak out when a bunch of Brown Folk™ upset the racial balance of a town in Nebraska that was 99% white to begin with... that's the basics of the issue.
Of course, they all scream that al Qaeda members are spilling over the border but they seem to forget they can do that on our northern border just as easy... or row a canoe up to the shore in Oregon. Nothing but a smokescreen... they're afraid the Mexicans are trying to reclaim lost territory that once made up half of the Mexican Repbulic... or something.
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Geesh, no one has any problem with legal immigrants. What we do have a problem with are illegals. The ones that don't pay taxes, burden the school systems and our health care system. Now who is going to be the first to complain, when your ADAP is not funded, Ryan White is not funded due to the increase of health care costs to cover illegals? You complain now that there is not money allocated for the programs now. We have waiting lists for people to get aid. How about the school systems. How about the food stamp programs. Is Mexico supporting those illegals, are they paying their health care and food stamps, no the US tax payer is having to foot the bills. Should they have to learn English? Yes, you ever tried to ask any foreigner that can not speak English that was involved in an autocrash where they hurt, are they on medication, are they allergic to any meds. Don't tell us we should be the bilingual person. If I lived in Mexico, I'm sure I would be expected to learn Spanish.
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You ignore the fact we have no guest worker program, and then traipse out a bunch of red herrings in your usual fashion.
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There is a legal way to enter the US and there is an illegal way. The ones that are here illegally, should be shipped back and be put at the end of the line behind the ones that are trying to come here legally. Philly what does a guest worker program have to do with the burden they are putting on social services, medical services and schools? You tally up what it costs the tax payers to support 10 million illegal immigrants. If we are going to support anyone, support the poor here in the US first.
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Uh,
Philly what does a guest worker program have to do with the burden they are putting on social services, medical services and schools? You tally up what it costs the tax payers to support 10 million illegal immigrants. If we are going to support anyone, support the poor here in the US first.
Show me the figures with factual links. I've read several analysis where they figure things in like the fact that immigrants are paying into the system and the disparity in what's not realized by society is rather minimal. For example, when they rent an apartment like ANY other citizen part of rent pays property taxes via the landlords. Therefore they've just paid into the school system. Also, when they get their jobs here illegally many/most use someone else's SS number, which they pay taxes towards... YET THEY NEVER REALIZE ANY OF THE MONEY FROM THIS LATER IN LIFE. Do you realize that when the IRS keeps their books yearly there's this slush fund of money that illegals have paid into the system that they can not hook up with a proper SS number?
You can't look at the numbers in such a simplistic fashion. And tell me, dearest Rapid Ron, who will be doing all the jobs that the 10 million illegals are currently doing? Also, consider something simple like how much shopping 10 million illegals do at, for example, our largest retailer Walmart. What happens when those 10 million disappear? Walmart's close, their employees lose their jobs, and then they're all on unemployment.
THAT is why nothing will be done, no matter how much you're annoyed at the sudden influx of Mexicans and Guatamalans in Ohio.
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So I have to ask: Do we then just do away with any immigration requirements whatsoever or what?
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It's simple supply and demand. If the US economy needs the labor because the jobs are there for migrant workers then I'd say yes. Frankly cultural changes don't interest me, and that's always at the heart of the ant-immigration arguments on the right... oh, they cloak it all effectively under the omg!9/11!spread'em! screams but be yea not deceived.
Supply and demand.... that's all it is.
Consider this too: are you willing for food prices to rise say 20% across the board when all of the little brown ones are rounded up and sent home? Same with hotel rates, same with landscaping, same with everything these people do. There's a reason that US prices on average are much lower than in Europe and Japan: the little brown ones.
If it was explained in these economic terms to the trailer park folks that scream about Mexicans their inherent cheapness would kick in and they'd chose to keep the lower prices they pay to live.