The definition of “Negative”

[Joggydoe]

I just want to say thank you, Jim, as well as the other moderators of this forum, for building and maintaining this incredible resource of info. Thank you. My question is, I understand this forum’s firm stance that a handjob, with or without fluid, and a kiss, with or without bad gums, blood, etc, are NO risk activities. I tested about 10 times up until and after 3 months to confirm my negative status after leaving a girlfriend of about a year (she was not faithful). Can I still say I am HIV negative if I’ve confirmed this after my last sex encounter despite having a handjob and kissing a sex worker on the lips? Not deeply, no tongue. My concern is putting others at risk. Once again, thank you for the time you put into this forum, it is appreciated by so many people who don’t have accounts to express those sentiments.

[Joggydoe]

Ah! One other thing I forgot to mention and hopefully this will quell other anxiety driven questions: what is your opinion on those who claim they have been infected through kissing? Is this chalked up to trolling? Forgive me if that assumption is not okay, but the internet does not cease to surprise/sadden me. Anyways, that is all. Thank you again.

[Jim Allen]

Hiya

If i understand you correctly you had been engaging in unprotected intercourse with your now ex-GF a risk that meets all the biological conditions for acquiring HIV and tested 10 times upto 3 months post last exposure and want to know if your results are okay.

Well ill presume you have been testing with an approved antibodies test, in that case yes the results are conclusive you did not acquire HIV from this concern.

Next time think safer sex! Condoms & consider PrEP.

handjob and kissing a sex worker on the lips?

Is not a HIV concern

My concern is putting others at risk.

Everyone is responsible for themselves.

If you want to protect yourself from HIV and reduce your STI risks what you need to start doing is practicing is the below:

Here's what you need to know in order to avoid hiv infection:
Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, every time, no exceptions. Consider starting PrEP as an additional layer of HIV prevention for the future.

Keep in mind that some sexual practices which may be described as safe in terms of HIV transmission might still pose a risk for far to acquire STI's, so please do get fully tested regularly and at least yearly for all STI's including but not limited to HIV and test more frequently if unprotected intercourse occurs

Also note that it is possible to have an STI and show no signs or symptoms and the only way of knowing is by testing.

More information on HIV Basics, PEP, TaSP and Transmission can be found through the links in my signature to our POZ pages, this includes information on HIV Testing

Kind regards

Jim

Please Note.
As a member of the AM I Infected Forum you are required to only post in this one thread no matter how long between visits or the subject matter. You can find this thread by going to your profile and selecting show own post and it will take you here . It helps us to help you when you keep all your thoughts or questions in one thread and it helps other readers to follow the discussion. Any additional threads will be deleted.

[Jim Allen]

Ah! One other thing I forgot to mention and hopefully this will quell other anxiety driven questions: what is your opinion on those who claim they have been infected through kissing? Is this chalked up to trolling? Forgive me if that assumption is not okay, but the internet does not cease to surprise/sadden me. Anyways, that is all. Thank you again.

Now I've edited your post as its unfair to comment on someone's story who can not defend themselves. The only thing ill say is this person was engaging in unprotected intercourse, the truth comes out sooner or later with most and, in his case sooner.

I've answered the same question earlier this week so I am going to give you the same answer i did for that person. If we did story telling risk assessments based patient claims I would be warning you about aliens from outer-space, toilet seats & about door knobs If your looking for stories though I have added some for you to study at the end of my post. Including 20% of men denying any anal sex yet having rectal infections  and 50% of women & 40% of men having risks events but calming to have had none 

Your risk assessment is simple, start practicing safer sex!and remember to test out of standard routine like every sexually active adult should at least yearly for HIV and far easier to transmit STI's
If what you posted here is that your only sexual contact since testing, than HIV is not an issue or concern!

Now as for stories i've even one guy who claims HIV made his left leg shrink, no joke! Its just stories and, stories are not facts, there are many reasons why someone would rather not admit to an exposure, incorrectly dismiss or not disclose a true exposure or admit the full truth. Being newly diagnosed is difficult enough time on its own, for some it is a time of struggling with deep fear of HIV stigma, social judgment & self stigma but also  things like sexuality, religion, family, sexual relationships etc etc come into play as well and for others even legal fears.

There is allot of misinformation and stories on the internet and lots of opinions or outdated data that get passed around as facts, We however rely on the latest scientific peer reviewed science for our assessments. This also gets fed back into the poz pages on transmission risks if needed and great effort is put into ensuring the message is clear. 

Move on with your life.


2018
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.eclinm.2018.08.001

STI Risk Perception in the British Population and How It Relates to Sexual Behaviour and STI Healthcare Use: Findings From a Cross-sectional Survey (Natsal-3)

We have identified falsely optimistic views of personal STI risk among a substantial proportion of those at risk of STIs in the British population, which could have a negative impact on efforts to promote safe sex and STI testing, and the control of STIs.

Among those classed as having ‘unsafe sex’ in the past year (comprising approximately 1 in 5 sexually-active 16–44-year-olds), 39.2% of men and 51.0% of women rated themselves as not at all at risk of STIs

2018
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0032885517753163

Underreporting in HIV-Related High-Risk Behaviors: Comparing the Results of Multiple Data Collection Methods in a Behavioral Survey of Prisoners in Iran

Participants reported more sexual contact in prison for their friends than they did for themselves. In men, NSU provided lower estimates than direct questioning, whereas in women NSU estimates were higher. Different data collection methods provide different estimates and collectively offer a more comprehensive picture of HIV-related risk behaviors in prisons.

2018
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5268760/

Socially desirability response bias and other factors that may influence self-reports of substance use and HIV risk behaviors: A qualitative study of drug users in Vietnam

The accuracy of self-report data may be marred by a range of cognitive and motivational biases, including social desirability response bias

2018
http://emj.bmj.com/content/35/1/46
Self-perceived risk of STIs in a population-based study of Scandinavian women

Subjective perception of risk for STI was associated with women’s current risk-taking behaviours, indicating women generally are able to assess their risks for STIs. However, a considerable proportion of women with multiple new partners in the last 6 months and no condom use still considered themselves at no/low risk for STI.

2018
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09540121.2017.1384787

Social desirability bias and underreporting of HIV risk behaviors are significant challenges to the accurate evaluation of HIV prevention programs for orphans and vulnerable children (OVC) in sub-Saharan Africa

2018
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanhiv/article/PIIS2352-3018(18)30062-6/fulltext

Non-disclosed men who have sex with men in UK HIV transmission networks: phylogenetic analysis of surveillance data

Jim: In short they analysed the genetic code of the virus from HIV-positive people and came to the conclusion that some of the self-reported heterosexual mens HIV was more than likely actually non-disclosed MSM.

2017
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28509997

Social Desirability Bias and Prevalence of Sexual HIV Risk Behaviors Among People Who Use Drugs in Baltimore, Maryland: Implications for Identifying Individuals Prone to Underreporting Sexual Risk Behaviors.

2017 --In regards to STI's
https://journals.lww.com/stdjournal/toc/2017/07000
Sexually Transmitted Diseases: July 2017 - Volume 44 - Issue 7 - p 390–392

Is Patient-Reported Exposure a Reliable Indicator for Anogenital Gonorrhea and Chlamydia Screening in Young Black Men Who Have Sex With Men?

Among 485 young black men who have sex with men recruited in Jackson, MS, 90-day anal sexual exposure significantly predicted rectal infection, but 19.4% of rectal infections would have been missed among men denying receptive anal sex. Reports of consistent condom use were associated with lower infection rates only in men reporting insertive anal sex.

2016
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010782416305418
Could misreporting of condom use explain the observed association between injectable hormonal contraceptives and HIV acquisition risk?

Jim - Not a conclusive or in depth study but under the study participants it did find: 9 out of every 20 sex acts reported with condoms are actually unprotected

2013

Rollins School of Public Health, Emory University, and the Kensington Research Institute, Silver Spring, MD 20910, USA https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14655794

"At risk" women who think that they have no chance of getting HIV: self-assessed perceived risks.

more than one-half of the "no perceived risk of HIV" sample had engaged in at least one risky practice during the preceding year and more than one-quarter had engaged in at least two such behaviors


2009
The Validity of Teens’ and Young Adults’ Self-reported Condom Use
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/articlepdf/380711/poa80067_61_64.pdf

A significant degree of discordance between self-reports of consistent condom use and YcPCR positivity was observed. Several rival explanations for the observed discordance exist, including (1) teens and young adults inaccurately reported condom use; (2) teens and young adults used condoms consistently but
used them incorrectly, resulting in user error; and (3) teens and young adults responded with socially desirable answers

BMC Public Health 2007
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-7-60

Analyses of data from the Demographic and Health Surveys, Sexual Behaviour Surveys and from other countries show a similar pattern indicating under-reporting
It is probable that as HIV campaigns encouraging delayed sexual debut and abstinence before marriage reach the population, people will report behaviour
assumed to be more socially desirable.

there are some signs of differential reporting bias in our study. We found that controlling for less risky sexual behaviour substantially reduced the association between HIV and survey time among urban men, but less so among women; this may suggest that self-reports from men about sexual behaviour are more reliable. Studies suggest that respondents, especially women, tend to under-report the number of lifetime sexual partners . Therefore, analyses of associations with, and changes in, self-reported sexual behaviour should be interpreted with caution.

2010
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957626/

Self-presentation bias (wishing to be viewed in a positive light) may result in patients underreporting behaviors they perceive to be stigmatizing

Approximately a third of the men in the sample reported that they did not disclose all of their risk behaviors to the HIV counselor during the face-to-face risk assessment. These results echo similar studies of risk disclosure to medical providers

[Joggydoe]

Wow, Jim, thank you for all of this information. I really have a feeling that other anxious, obsessive people like myself will read this and spare you the crazy questions. So the definition of being HIV negative would be a conclusive,  antibody test, 3 months after any unprotected vaginal, anal and sometimes, but extremely rare, oral sex?  Regardless of kisses and handjobs, I can confidently say I am HIV negative? PSA to any OCDers reading this, read the articles and Jim’s comments, don’t go searching for stories that claim infection occurred after a no risk encounter, this forum would not tell you to move on with your life if they had any reason to believe you may be infected. Anyways, thank you Jim, this was really appreciated and I’m sure I’m not the only one. And thank you for answering that question about the specific post even though it was against the guidelines for me to ask. Thank you

[Jim Allen]

Regardless of kisses and handjobs, I can confidently say I am HIV negative?

Correct not a HIV risk.

So the definition of being HIV negative would be a conclusive,  antibody test, 3 months after any unprotected vaginal, anal and sometimes, but extremely rare, oral sex?

An approved antibodies test 3 months post last exposure - Yes.

Oral sex means everything and nothing, giving a BJ to someone is a minute risk that warrants no testing other than wherever next due for standard routine.  Any other oral sex is not a HIV risk included getting your penis sucked.

Wow, Jim, thank you for all of this information.

You're welcome

[Joggydoe]

Hey Jim, if you need to delete this reply, please do...BUT I need to make you aware of something. The person I was worried about, who I am sure created so much angry and frustration among the people who work so so hard to convey the scientific facts of HIV transmission, who claimed they became positive via kissing and even created threads about medication, their numbers, etc, is just full of BS. My OCD could not let this go and it upset me how this person pushed their story to moderators who are positive and trying to raise awareness and decrease stigma. Anyways, if you go to the Body.com, a year later after this person claims they became positive, there are literally two identical posts made in February 2014, about kissing a girl at a bar in San Francisco, lower tooth with receding gum, asking about viral load in saliva, “convinced” they are positive but aren’t sure. The posts are titled “Killed myself with a deep kiss” and “Deep kissing and Now I have HIV”. I cannot believe this person would dare craft such an intense, articulate story, down to the NUMBERS, of testing positive over kissing. It blows my mind. Anyways, sorry to go all CSI Cold Case, but the way this person stirred up the moderators, the members of the forum, etc, I just had to let you know, even if it’s from 5 years ago, people still reference that information. You guys are the best and I really could not let go how this person tried to undermine your efforts. Please delete this if it’s inappropriate, I just didn’t know how to message you directly and let you know

[Jim Allen]

Hiya,

I do apologize as I reread your post, below an edited reply.

We covered biased claims & denial. The claim was always BS, I'm also dealing with people who claim aliens from outer-space infected them, or that they contacted HIV from a toilet seat, no joke  ... It doesn't make it fact.

its unfair to comment on someone's story who can not defend themselves. The only thing ill say is this person was engaging in unprotected intercourse, the truth comes out sooner or later with most and, in his case sooner.

I wish you well but you simply can't let stories, and other peoples fantasy get the better of you! They are stories, not facts and, if you keep having fears or reactions to stories like this in the future speak to a therapist would be my recommendation

[Joggydoe]

Hey all,

This will be my final question on this forum. Anyways, I've informed you of my risks. This includes two partners:
Partner 1 (CSW) : Vaginal fluid on left hand, transferred to shaft of penis when opening fly of pants and possibly closing.
Partner 2 (CSW 1 day after her unprotected encounter) : Kiss on the lips, possible exchange of saliva, but absolutely no tongue, and possible transfer of vaginal fluid to penis with my hand or hers (I am not circumcised), breast sucking.

Anyways, I know you've told me these are no risk scenarios, but I tested negative using a 4th gen finger prick AG/AB test at 6 weeks. But of course, just when I'm about to get over this, on the 9th week, I get post nasal drip, causing a sore-ish throat, sneezing, coughing up mucus, NO FEVER though, and then seborrheic dermatitis on my chin, underneath my beard. It appeared all of the sudden when I started itching and it got red, greasy, and flakey. I just don't know what to do. I don't think I've experienced that before besides slightly dandruff on my head.  I feel like I have had no risks, but that symptom of seborrheic dermatitis has me terrified, it seems so specific to HIV. Also, the fact that it coincided with my week-long cold, it seems like something about me is failing. My friend won't let me test anymore unless I've had a risk..but I am just scared of putting others at risk. I promise you, those are my only risk factors. Never was my bare penis in a vagina, anus, or mouth. What should I do?  Thank you all. I'm trying my best to move forward and I'm sorry if this trivializes the hard work you're doing to ensure people know the real risks

[Jim Allen]

Asked & answered already. 

I'm not going to continue this with you and, I don't recommend the merry-go-round of HIV testing over no HIV risk situations unless you are not mentioning something. Instead, I would urge you to seek support from a therapist to help you cope with your thoughts & fears.

The only risk posted here was the unprotected intercourse and, you tested excessively 10 times after the last time.

I am just scared of putting others at risk

Sex comes with risks, if not HIV then from far easier to acquire STI's. Every adult should know that and, are responsible for themselves. Simply start practicing safer sex.

Here's what you need to know in order to avoid HIV infection:
Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, every time, no exceptions. Consider starting PrEP as an additional layer of HIV prevention for the future.

Keep in mind that some sexual practices which may be described as safe in terms of HIV transmission might still pose a risk for far to acquire STI's, so please do get fully tested regularly and at least yearly for all STI's including but not limited to HIV and test more frequently if unprotected intercourse occurs

Also, note that it is possible to have an STI and show no signs or symptoms and the only way of knowing is by testing.

More information on HIV Basics, PEP, TaSP and Transmission can be found through the links in my signature to our POZ pages, this includes information on HIV Testing

Kind regards

Jim

Please Note.
As a member of the AM I Infected Forum you are required to only post in this one thread no matter how long between visits or the subject matter. You can find this thread by going to your profile and selecting show own post and it will take you here . It helps us to help you when you keep all your thoughts or questions in one thread and it helps other readers to follow the discussion. Any additional threads will be deleted.
[/quote]

[Joggydoe]

I’ve been having intense HIV OCD for the past 5 months. 14 blood tests later, I’m still here. Freaking out. All of my worry stems from 2 no risk situations with sex workers (Handjobs and a kiss) though I’ve tested for those events at 6 weeks and 10 weeks with a 4th gen test, so I can pretty much rule those out, but not completely. Any ways, after feeling content, I attempted to have protected sex with a girl I know personally. It didn’t happen. I had the condom on but my fear wouldn’t allow me to penetrate. So it didn’t work out...yet, 5 days later, I break out in a huge, itchy rash, my penis swells up to the size of a puffy cucumber, the works! It’s just gone away now. So what if from fingering her, I got vaginal fluid inside the condom when I put it on, or something! It’s just classic. Now I have this hallmark HIV symptom, yet Doctors and friends are telling me to stop testing, I wasn’t at risk. But isn’t that irresponsible? What if my penis brushed up against one these sex workers and I didn’t realize it? I am almost 99.999% sure that didn’t happen as my state of hyper vigilance during those times would’ve picked it up and let it tear me apart if it truly happened. Somehow I had Chlamydia (tested last week) which I’m pretty sure I got from my ex girlfriend (she says she tested negative but I’m pretty sure she had a “UTI” while we were dating and already treated herself with antibiotic) but what if I didn’t and these no risk situations really were a risk? Does having chlamydia whilst getting a handjob with fluid increase my odds? I want to stop testing but I would feel so horrible if I was wrong and hurt someone else. I feel wrong not testing after this rash. Every Doctor or Nurse says it’s either a reaction or fungal, it definitely responded better to the fungal cream than the hydrocortisone. I’m sorry I keep coming back here, I wish I could move on. In the meantime, I really have been teaching my friends about HIV, nothing terribly complicated but really trying my best to have them always wearing condoms and that it 10000% isn’t a “gay disease”. That notion bothers me so much. It’s a disease that doesn’t discriminate..gay men just don’t have the option to use a vagina, therefore they’re left with a method that’s more traumatic, potentially. Anyone can have anal sex though..anyways, that is my latest update. I hope you all are well!

[Jim Allen]

Again nothing you mentioned meets the biological conditions required for transmission of HIV.

I agree with your doctor, I don't recommend the merry-go-round of HIV testing over no HIV risk situations unless you are not mentioning something. It's not a healthy coping strategy and, an utter waste. Instead, I would urge you to seek support from a therapist to help you cope with your thoughts & fears.

I wish you well but I'm not helping you by allowing you to post here, so if you post about conculsive negative results or no risk situations again it's going to lead to a ban, not to hurt you but to encourage you, to seek professional mental health support

[Joggydoe]

Hey Jim (I hope this is the right thing to do instead of posting a new topic)

I’m doing a lot better now and testing routinely  as you’ve suggested. Not freaking out, just being a responsible, sexually active adult. I really owe you a lot for not indulging me with reassurance. Anyways, I get tested every 3 months at Planned Parenthood and couldn’t find much info about the tests so I was hoping I could get some clarity from you. Every 95 days, they prick my finger, I wait 20 minutes and I’m given a negative result. They’ve typically been a “4th Generation” test but the last one was a “2nd Generation”.

To my understanding IF I had a risk event, are these finger prick, rapid tests, regardless of generation,  just as conclusive as a lab based, blood from a vein test, when taken 90 days after said “risk event”. If I were to have a risk event, to my understanding, with these finger prick tests, I would test at 6 weeks, then at 13 weeks and could be fully confident in my negative results.

1. In short, are finger prick, rapid tests just as conclusive as a lab
based, veinous blood tests, when taken 90+ days after a risk event?

Thanks so much for all your help. I love Planned Parenthood and just want to make sure I’m doing the right thing by taking my tests there. Really appreciate you man.

[Joggydoe]

But seriously, question aside, what you did for me by not feeding my reassurance and educating my rational side really did wonders. I feel confident in my actions and not driven by fear. I really don’t know what I would’ve done without the saintly help of you and this forum, but thank you.

[Jim Allen]

Hiya,

You're welcome and I am glad to hear you are testing regularly for STI's & HIV as routine. 

In short, are finger prick, rapid tests just as conclusive as a lab
based, veinous blood tests, when taken 90+ days after a risk event?

Asked and answered

An approved antibodies test 3 months post last exposure - Yes.

[Joggydoe]

Thank you Jim! I hope this answers the same question for others wondering the same thing.