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Off Topic Forums => Forums Gatherings => Topic started by: AMG Coordinator on October 26, 2007, 06:44:01 pm

Title: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on October 26, 2007, 06:44:01 pm
Hello Everyone,

It's that time of year.  Time to vote for next years AMG destination!  I'm interested in everyone's TOP 2 choices.  I urge anyone who may have an interest in attending next year to please cast your vote. 

Although you are free to vote for any destination, please keep in mind that a large urban setting, preferably with an international airport close by, works best to suit the needs of our group.

In order to committ to a destination by years end, please cast all votes by November 17th.

Please also visit http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16696.0 (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16696.0) to vote for which month next year's AMG should be held.

Thanks!
Dennis
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: pozniceguy on October 26, 2007, 07:21:10 pm
1.  Dallas , Texas...  USA ....  center of the US... major international airport..many local attractions...average to low  cost ..lower than most large cities...friendly community

2. Houston , Texas...... easy to get to..  large city ..many attractions...   friendly community...large International Airport...
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Dan J. on October 26, 2007, 07:41:09 pm
 1.Provincetown, Mass http://www.ptown.org/
 2. Portland Oregon http://www.portland.com/portland/index.cfm?objectid=5E893295-C09F-22F2-195F99FCBB7A8DC3

Provincetown was named one of the top 10 gay friendly cities in the U.S.
Portland for it's mild climate.

Location doesn't really matter, but since I had to choose 2 places those are the ones I chose.

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: allanq on October 26, 2007, 08:43:25 pm
I'd like to suggest that we do the voting in two stages.

Step 1: Everyone votes for two cities.

Step 2: Select the top three or four cities from the first step. Then everyone votes for one of the top 3 or 4.

The purpose of the two-step process is to avoid selecting a location that only a small minority wants. In the most extreme case, say fifty people each vote for two cities and 99 cities are named. The city receiving two votes would win. I realize that this particular scenario is unlikely to happen, but it shows how we could wind up with a city that very few people really want.

I also hope that we will be allowed to change our votes up until the deadline.

What do others think?

Allan
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: RapidRod on October 26, 2007, 09:33:58 pm
1. Dallas
2. Anywhere USA.
3. I don't really care. I'll just try my best to make it. I just don't have funds to go overseas.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: RICKY77531 on October 26, 2007, 09:55:08 pm
1.Houston

2.Dallas

3.why?????????........ everythings bigger in Texas......  :o
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: MOONLIGHT1114 on October 26, 2007, 09:59:06 pm
1)  Boston - or somewhere in New England, cause it just gets too damn hot in Sept.

2) Baltimore/DC area  "East Coast"   :D
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Dachshund on October 26, 2007, 10:09:37 pm
1. Amsterdam

2. London
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: emeraldize on October 26, 2007, 10:16:58 pm
Excellent choices!

1. Amsterdam ( this would be an outstanding location for AMG '08)

2. London
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Robert on October 27, 2007, 12:24:55 am
1.  Amsterdam
2.  Amsterdam

And I agree wholly with Allanq's suggestion.  Makes sense to me.

robert
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: komnaes on October 27, 2007, 02:25:31 pm
First choice, London

Second choice, if it has to be in the US, Seattle (I wish I could say San Francisco, but I missed this year's AMG..)
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on October 27, 2007, 03:16:03 pm
my choices are anywhere in mexico and anywhere in canada. why? because it remains ILLEGAL for poz people to enter the US on a regular visa.

note that despite the fact i live in europe i have respected the fact that most of the americans said they couldnt afford to get to europe and have therefore voted for parts of your continent rather than mine, despite the fact that it makes it hugely expensive for me to attend amg. i would appreciate it if you would return the courtesy by not voting for somewhere that i would have to commit a FELONY to get to.

oh, and i think allan's suggestion is good too
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Ann on October 27, 2007, 03:53:09 pm
1. Amsterdam
2. Liverpool (it's the 2008 European Capital of Culture)

Ann
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Jody on October 27, 2007, 04:38:25 pm
I thinkAllan's idea is a good one as well and I understand the 2 underlying issues affecting all AMG's and that is that non-Americans have difficulty travelling here (a big damned shame it is) and that it is expensive as well and that for many Americans, especially with the dollar at all time lows) it is near impossible to travel abroad.

That being said perhaps in addition to Allan's idea we could divide our choices into U.S. and outside the U.S., though that may complicate things.

Anyway in that vein I would like to go to Europe (a separate AMG???) and I choose Amsterdam and London for that and if it is in this part of the world I choose Seattle and Chicago.

I am flexible (as always) though I cannot bend like I did as a younger man. ;)

Jody   
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: milker on October 28, 2007, 12:36:52 am
Mexico
Vancouver

3rd runner up Amsterdam
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: mrtallguy on October 28, 2007, 09:58:25 am
We should not support a country that does not support us!
(And yes, I am referring to the one I live in...UGH!)
So my vote is for:

1)  Amsterdam
2)  Vancouver
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: 404error on October 28, 2007, 02:45:20 pm
1) Amsterdam
2) Not America
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: JR Gabbard on October 28, 2007, 03:02:08 pm
Checked the calendar, and yup--only one month since the last one, but it seems like a LOT longer.  So now for the next one....

I'm breaking your rule, Dennis.  I'm going to offer several location suggestions, because we are a very varied group, with various needs.

First, I agree with everyone who objects to holding it in the US, because our laws are unaccetably restrictive.  In a very real way, until we change them, we will have to accept their consequences.  In this case, the consequence we have to deal with is that many don't want to come here, with good reason.  If we want to get together as a group, then, we have to choose someplace else.  I'll give those suggestions a little later.

Because I still don't want to necessarily give up on the idea of holding it in the US again.  I know the law is fucked.  But unless I missed something, everyone who came got in, this time.  And deep down inside, don't we all already feel like somewhat of an outlaw anyway, no matter where we are, just by having the virus?  

Many members are on public benefits, and holding AMG in the US will make it easier for some poorer members  to attend.  There is more involved in international travel, and for an American who isn't used to it, there is an additional "start up" cost involved.  So if we are going to have it somewhere else, we will need to get very real about how much scholarship support we can get for those who will need it.

So, with those thoughts in mind, my suggestions:

Domestic:  Denver, CO; it is beautiful, relatively cheap, central to most, has AIDS history (the Denver Principles conceived there, obviously) and it's not Texas ('scuse me)   OR

Chicago, IL (it's like a shiny toy); it's beautiful, relatively cheap, central to most, the upper midwest is wonderful that time of year, and it's not Texas('scuse me again)

Not that I don't like Texas, in fact I've liked all of them.  I just wouldn't feel comfortable around so many Repub........

International:  Amsterdam, NL; will solve one very major logistical dilemma that many of us will encounter in other locations, is pretty and quaint, perfect jumping off point for quick forays to other parts of the Continent for those so inclined, and in truth, my choice.

Mexico, DF only:  not so HIV friendly in other places, except perhaps PV.  Now there's a thought.  AMG on the beach at Puerto Vallarta would not suck.  Not at all.  Or Maui, but that's domestic.  And who cares??

So, there's my thoughts.  The money thing is a serious issue.  We should try to make it as available as possible to everyone.  But I don't think that holding it in Amsterdam necessarily makes it less accessible.  We'll just have to pass the hat more.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: manchesteruk on October 28, 2007, 06:42:38 pm
I'd have to go with Vancouver or Amsterdam.  It looks increasingly likely to me though that there will be two gatherings next year, one in Europe and one in the US/Canada.  There are a lot of people who would feel uncomfortable traveling to the US with it's HIV restrictions and a lot of people in the US who can't afford to travel to Europe.  It's a sad situation but one I can't see a way around unfortunately.

Chris
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: heartforyou on October 28, 2007, 07:01:58 pm
1.Boston, Mass
2.Vancouver.Canada

In Europe : Amsterdam

Good idea Allan

Hermie
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Blixer on October 28, 2007, 07:42:28 pm
US Locations
1.  Boston, MA
2.  Denver, CO

International
1.  Amsterdam

And I realize there is no way to please everyone in this very diverse and fantastic group.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Ann on October 28, 2007, 07:47:09 pm
Um, am I just nit-picking, or were we asked to give just two locations?
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: newt on October 28, 2007, 08:29:39 pm
Douglas, Isle of Man

The Isle of Man is located at the heart of the British Isles, putting it within easy reach of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Alternatively, somewhere in Texas

- matt
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: LACboi on October 28, 2007, 11:03:37 pm
 1. Cancun Mexico - we can see Mayan temples, pyramids

 2. Toronto Ont, Canada - 1st AMG reunion

 3. Vancover BC, Canada

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: woodshere on October 29, 2007, 10:29:39 am
Boston or DC
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: pozattitude on October 29, 2007, 11:08:50 am
I agree with SweetPrince in that we should find the most economical place for everyone so all who want to attend can be at AMG next year.

on a personal preference,

where?  I am going to be selfish and suggest L.A.  why? AIDS LifeCycle ends in L.A and I would just love to see your faces as I pedal into Los Angeles...there is a HUGE closing ceremony for the ride and that can be our arrival party, also PRIDE week in L.A that week

otherwise...
in the U.S I say New York or Miami/Ft. Lauderdale
in Latin America ..Mexico City or San Juan
in Europe... Manchester or Rotterdam

Asia/Oceania has to be  in Sydney or Perth


Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on October 29, 2007, 06:57:02 pm
I was told that Vancouver would be a fairly expensive  location for a gathering.  I was also told that this is is why it wasn't a suggested location for a previous AMG.  Is this not correct?  Perhaps we need to keep in mind the practicality involved in any location we suggest. 

Price - I mean, Amsterdam would be great, as would London.  The costs involved for getting attendees to anywhere not in North America are going to be very high.  The exchange rate pretty much sucks right now for US citizens to travel to Europe.

Weather - I see Texas suggested.  Isn't Texas a bit hot in August & September.  How's Mexico City's weather this time of year.  We need a location that's fairly moderate in temperature.  The location needs to be one that's not (likely) to be affected by hurricanes. 

Time of year - Are we planning the AMG in August or September?  That has implications for those who teach or have young kids in school, what else is going on in a potential location (conferences, tourist season, etc), and also on weather.

Legality of travel - I know our non-US brothers and sisters have the issue of HIV travel to contend with.  I can understand their dilemma.  To say that we as a country don't welcome HIV+ travelers is just not true.  Like I've said before, it wasn't too long ago (3 years, as I recall) that laws making sex between same-sex partners were enforced.  The Supreme Court finally did the right thing in declaring these laws unconstitutional.  I'm not sure how effective these laws were at cutting down on gay sex, but I have a feeling they weren't at all.  The point is that if something is unlawful, but doesn't hurt another, many folks don't have an issue breaking that law.  I guess the point is that I'm personally sorry that we have some archaic, BS laws regarding HIV.  I'm also sympathetic to the concerns of those dealing with these laws.  I also know that the vast majority of AMG attendees are US citizens. 

If one is going to suggest a location for an AMG, perhaps a bit of research on various locations prior to recommending them is in order.  I'd think that having visited a place fairly recently at the time of year in question would suffice as research. 

I think Allanq's idea above is also a good one.  I'll do a little preliminary research over the next few days and see what options I can come up with, but I think the US or not-US issue needs to be settled pretty early on.

David

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 29, 2007, 07:14:39 pm
Florianópolis

or

Bodrum
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: pozattitude on October 29, 2007, 07:27:46 pm
Florianópolis

or

Bodrum

where the hell did you find Florianópolis?...lol...don't get me wrong..it is a nice city on the beach and the capital of the state where it sits, but if we are going all the way South I'd say lets do Rio or Buenos Aires.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 29, 2007, 07:35:25 pm
where the hell did you find Florianópolis?...lol...don't get me wrong..it is a nice city on the beach and the capital of the state where it sits, but if we are going all the way South I'd say lets do Rio or Buenos Aires.

I don't like obvious choices :)

...plus it has less crime than Rio.  Everyone from Rio and BA go to Floripa for vacation.  Plus with the unique German racial mixture the boys have a delightful quality to them.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Oceanbeach on October 29, 2007, 08:26:49 pm
I see a couple of members voting on Mexico.  Does anyone remember Manuel and Scot?  Manuel was in a hospital in a Mexico state which did not have AIDS.  He was refused treatment and died.  Many of us here on the Forums sent letters of complaint to the authorities in Mexico and the press protesting Manuels treatment.  I believe Scot was tried for practicing medicine without a license.

If someone could check the Forum archives, I think it could be found in the "old" Forums and this should be reviewed before voting on Mexico.  Have the best day
Michael

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: pozattitude on October 30, 2007, 01:04:53 am
I don't like obvious choices :)

...plus it has less crime than Rio.  Everyone from Rio and BA go to Floripa for vacation.  Plus with the unique German racial mixture the boys have a delightful quality to them.

wow Philly, I'm impressed  :)  where did you learn so much about Brazil?  My mom is from there and my grandfather's family is of German descent, but Jewish....lol.

Rich
(who is 100% mutt)
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Queen Tokelove on October 30, 2007, 02:24:14 am
Man, I just wish I could afford to go to some of the places listed and that includes the ones in the States. I live on a very limited income so traveling abroad for me would mean a passport which I have never applied for one. Of course, I would vote for NY because it is closer to me. I really don't have a second choice but guesses I would like anything that is on the East Coast.... ;D
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: manchesteruk on October 30, 2007, 03:59:04 am
Legality of travel - I know our non-US brothers and sisters have the issue of HIV travel to contend with.  I can understand their dilemma.  To say that we as a country don't welcome HIV+ travelers is just not true.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one David.  Whilst it wouldn't bother me personally to come back to the US next year I can see where other people are coming from.  It's only really because I'm not on meds that it's not much of an issue for me.  If you were found with HIV medications in your luggage you would be sent home it's as simple as that.  In fact I think it's happened to a member of these forums.  And we also have to lie on a visa waiver form as Niki says essentially this its committing a felony everytime we want to enter the country.  It's an extremely nerve racking experience especially when you are being quizzed by immigration officers asking why you are in the country trying to catch you out.

Chris
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on October 30, 2007, 08:04:39 am
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one David.  Whilst it wouldn't bother me personally to come back to the US next year I can see where other people are coming from.  It's only really because I'm not on meds that it's not much of an issue for me.  If you were found with HIV medications in your luggage you would be sent home it's as simple as that.  In fact I think it's happened to a member of these forums.  And we also have to lie on a visa waiver form as Niki says essentially this its committing a felony everytime we want to enter the country.  It's an extremely nerve racking experience especially when you are being quizzed by immigration officers asking why you are in the country trying to catch you out.

Chris

Chris,

I'm not disagreeing with what you've said.  I did say that it was illegal, but that I doubt most US citizens care.  What I mean by 'we as a country' is your everyday citizen.  Just like I don't think that 'we as a country' approve of the BS going on in Iraq, either.  The official US laws may mean one thing, but that doesn't have anything to do with the population's opinion.  Of course, this doesn't make it any less illegal.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on October 30, 2007, 08:41:43 am
According to the survey which has been posted for over a month, the choice between US or Europe should not even be an issue.  I understand the qualms our European friends have about visiting the USA.  However, this is a social gathering and not a political gathering.  Where ever we all wind up next year we are there to visit with friends.  Not to make a political statement to the USA or any other country.  I'll post the full results hopefully before I leave for California.  But in short...

72 people participated
55 96.39% reside in the USA
17 23.16% reside elsewhere

     Where do you reside?      
Africa & the Middle East   2   2.78%
Asia                                   2   2.78%
Australia/New Zeeland   5   0               6.94%
Canada                                   1   1.39%
Caribbean                                   7    9.72%
Latin America 0                   0                0.00%
U.S.A. (East Coast)                  16   22.22%
U.S.A. (Midwest)                  10   13.89%
U.S.A. (South)                   11   15.28%
U.S.A. (Southwest)                   5    6.94%
U.S.A. (West Coast)                  12    16.67%

Despite an official ban on people living with HIV from entering the country, would you attend an AMG event located in the USA?      
Yes   64   88.89%
No   8   11.11%

If you answered "NO" to the question above, where do you live. (please answer this question ONLY if you answered no to the question above)      

Not Applicable...I answered yest to question 14   64   88.89%
Africa and the Middle East                                   0   0.00%
Asia                                                                   0   0.00%
Austrailia / New Zealand                                   2   2.78%
Canada                                                                   0   0.00%
Caribbean                                                                   0   0.00%
Europe                                                                   3   4.17%
Latin America                                                   0   0.00%
USA                                                                   3   4.17%

In which location would you like to see AMG 08 be held?   
   
Northeast (New York, Mass.,Vermont, etc.)                                  15   20.83%
Midwest (Illinois, Wisconsin,Ohio, etc.)                                  15   20.83%
Southeast (Georgia, Florida,Louisiana, etc.)                                  12   16.67%
Southwest (Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Texas, etc.)                   3   4.17%
West Coast (California,Colorado, Oregon,Washington, etc.)   4   5.56%
Europe                                                                                  14   19.44%
Central/South America                                                                   3   4.17%
Australia/New Zealand                                                                   4   5.56%
Caribbean Islands                                                                   2   2.78%


This vote is going to remain simple.  2 suggested destinations per person (Europe or USA) with the destination receiving the most votes going up for discussion as next year AMG destination. 

Please use the information above and make wise and sound choices when casting your vote.  Please keep in mind the needs of the group as well as the ease and affordability of getting a group of people to a single destination.  Your vote shouldn't be a reflection of your wishes.   I would love to go to Africa.  However, I would never vote for that as a destination for AMG know the majority of members would not be able to attend.   Keep in mind weather, affordability, local amenities, etc.  As of today, September is beating out August and October as the time of year. 

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as harsh.  I guess my point is in order for us to accomplish our goals this needs to be a relatively simple process using the facts as we know them.  We are not going to please everyone.

To keep the tallying of the votes simple, please use this forum to cast your votes rather than discussions about US or European policies on HIV.

Thanks!

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Iggy on October 30, 2007, 09:17:37 am
According to the survey which has been posted for over a month, the choice between US or Europe should not even be an issue.  I understand the qualms our European friends have about visiting the USA.  However, this is a social gathering and not a political gathering.  Where ever we all wind up next year we are there to visit with friends.  Not to make a political statement to the USA or any other country. 


Actually I don't think you or anyone here can brush aside the legitimate worry of any non-U.S. citizen has of traveling here when there is an official ban by saying that this isn't about politics.  Frankly I find that misguided and somewhat offensive.

It doesn't matter what the gathering is about that is at issue - what is at issue is the risk we ask anyone who is outside the U.S. to take to come into the country.  Granted it seems a minimal risk for many but I ask anyone from the U.S. what right we have to deemed that risk a non-issue? 

I wonder how many U.S. citizens would be willing to take a risk with their safety if there was a ban in another country about letting people with HIV enter.  Hell, I would suggest most U.S. citizens would voice complaints and concerns about traveling to any country were English wasn't the first language. 

And as for the non-political point of AMG - I am shocked that anyone doesn't see a gathering of POZ people who are being open about their status in such an event as not being political.  Yes. This is not an event that is structured around political events, but it is high time that we realize that we are by nature a political issue just by our existence.  Unfortunately I think that loss of vision of something that is so basic is why so many of us feel so hopeless in so many areas.

I think it is time to have an AMG gathering in Europe.  If us in the U.S. do not or can not wish to participate in it for reasons ranging from costs to travel concerns then they might have a better understanding of what some of our fellow members go through every year. 

Additionally might I add something to consider about the AMG and those who take the survey and are regulars here on the forum.  The very fact that many of our members can not attend the AMG (whether fears of restrictions or costs of travel) does affect their willingness to even participate in these surveys and discussions and as a result somewhat skews the results.  I would guess that if the event was held outside of the U.S. (or at the very least was discussed as a viable option and not just brushed aside as something that most don't want) we would have a number of people willing to attend and discuss who previously have not had a major presence in such discussions.  As a community that bills itself as a global one, I think it is time we start acting like it.

And btw - your figures are off:

72 people participated (which btw is a very small number for the amount of members on this site)
55 96.39%  76% reside in the USA
17 23.16% reside elsewhere.

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on October 30, 2007, 09:52:09 am
Actually I don't think you or anyone here can brush aside the legitimate worry of any non-U.S. citizen has of traveling here when there is an official ban by saying that this isn't about politics.  Frankly I find that misguided and somewhat offensive.

It doesn't matter what the gathering is about that is at issue - what is at issue is the risk we ask anyone who is outside the U.S. to take to come into the country.  Granted it seems a minimal risk for many but I ask anyone from the U.S. what right we have to deemed that risk a non-issue? 

Than what is your solution for next years AMG.  Keep in mind your solution should be one that would be economical and feasible for the group at large.

I wonder how many U.S. citizens would be willing to take a risk with their safety if there was a ban in another country about letting people with HIV enter.  Hell, I would suggest most U.S. citizens would voice complaints and concerns about traveling to any country were English wasn't the first language. 



And as for the non-political point of AMG - I am shocked that anyone doesn't see a gathering of POZ people who are being open about their status in such an event as not being political.  Yes. This is not an event that is structured around political events, but it is high time that we realize that we are by nature a political issue just by our existence.  Unfortunately I think that loss of vision of something that is so basic is why so many of us feel so hopeless in so many areas.

FACT - AMG is STRUCTURED as a social event and not a political event. If anyone wishes to use their participation as political, so be it.  There are no demonstrations or any structured outing that makes this event political. 

I think it is time to have an AMG gathering in Europe.  If us in the U.S. do not or can not wish to participate in it for reasons ranging from costs to travel concerns then they might have a better understanding of what some of our fellow members go through every year. 

FACT - No one has ever stopped AMG from being held in Europe.  Each year there has been a vote put out to the members of AMG.  The process for the past few years have been as democratic as can be on an internet forum.  Please review past threads regarding past AMG's. 

Additionally might I add something to consider about the AMG and those who take the survey and are regulars here on the forum.  The very fact that many of our members can not attend the AMG (whether fears of restrictions or costs of travel) does affect their willingness to even participate in these surveys and discussions and as a result somewhat skews the results.  I would guess that if the event was held outside of the U.S. (or at the very least was discussed as a viable option and not just brushed aside as something that most don't want) we would have a number of people willing to attend and discuss who previously have not had a major presence in such discussions.  As a community that bills itself as a global one, I think it is time we start acting like it.

FACT - The survey has been posted for over a month and has been open to the entire membership of AidMeds.com.  Anyone interested in attending AMG has been invited to take the survey.  If you wanted your voice heard this was one way.  Another way is to vote.
And btw - your figures are off:

72 people participated (which btw is a very small number for the amount of members on this site)
55 96.39%  76% reside in the USA
17 23.16% reside elsewhere.

FACT - I'm human and make mistakes.  Regardless, 8 persons out of the 17 who "reside elsewhere" stated they would visit an AMG if it were held in the USA.  The information, as supplied by those who participated in the survey show that the issue of USA vs Europe is very minor as it relates to AMG.  Aslo, I can only post a link to the survey.  I can't make people take it.  This is one of the few tools the coordinators of this event have to use in the planning process. 

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Iggy on October 30, 2007, 09:55:35 am
Please read what I wrote again and give some consideration about my point which I think you are missing by a mile.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on October 30, 2007, 10:02:28 am
Iggy,

I'm not taking this personally.  However, it is partially the responsibility of the coordinator to ensure that decisions are being made that will benefit the GROUP as a whole (yet realizing you won't be able to please everyone). 

If you want AMG to be held in Europe then please cast your vote.

Please, continue to use this thread for casting your vote ONLY. 

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on October 30, 2007, 10:06:22 am
Iggy, there has been TALK for some time about an AMG being held in Europe.  This is not a sponsored event.  There is nothing stopping anybody from holding one there.  There have been smaller gatherings there, but nothing as large as the ones here in the US North America. 

As for being 'political', it would be hard for somebody who's not attended an AMG to think of it as political... at least from what I've experienced at two AMG's.  I know I'm only speaking for two (hubby and I), but this was not a political event.  It was not to make a point to anybody.  It's a social gathering, a chance to meet other HIV+ people.  One cool thing about those who've attended, at least to me, is that there seems to be a bit more politeness and respect towards each other, a sort of friendship that's not built from just an on-line forum. 

Also, as an FWI regarding
Quote
I would guess that if the event was held outside of the U.S. (or at the very least was discussed as a viable option and not just brushed aside as something that most don't want) we would have a number of people willing to attend and discuss who previously have not had a major presence in such discussions.  As a community that bills itself as a global one, I think it is time we start acting like it.
two words come to my mind.  Toronto and Montreal, both non-US locations. 

David

(Edited to correct US to North America)
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Iggy on October 30, 2007, 10:16:28 am
David - Thanks but you miss the point as well.

I am fully aware of the talk of the AMG in Europe - not sure why you thought I missed that.  Please note what I am talkiing about is based off of what I quoted in my first post which I found as minimizing real concerns of anyone outside the U.S.

You also misunderstood what I mean about the political thing.

Read what I wrote again - "And as for the non-political point of AMG - I am shocked that anyone doesn't see a gathering of POZ people who are being open about their status in such an event as not being political.  Yes. This is not an event that is structured around political events, but it is high time that we realize that we are by nature a political issue just by our existence. Unfortunately I think that loss of vision of something that is so basic is why so many of us feel so hopeless in so many areas."

I'm not arguing or even suggesting that we all put on war paint and charge the white house.  I'm asking us as a group to realize that our very gathering is by nature political (despite how icky that makes some feel).  You can't escape it no matter how much one wishes they could.  Granted a wake up call to that fact may be lost in this discussion, but it is sad that anyone would want to argue for the point that we are less than what we are.

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on October 30, 2007, 10:19:54 am
David - Thanks but you miss the point as well.

This seems to happen a lot these days. 
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 30, 2007, 10:32:45 am

I think it is time to have an AMG gathering in Europe.  If us in the U.S. do not or can not wish to participate in it for reasons ranging from costs to travel concerns then they might have a better understanding of what some of our fellow members go through every year. 

I *somewhat* would agree with this statement, but then I look at the stats from the AMG questionnaire (which I'd not seen previously) and I now *somewhat* disagree.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Iggy on October 30, 2007, 10:59:10 am
Iggy,

I'm not taking this personally.  However, it is partially the responsibility of the coordinator to ensure that decisions are being made that will benefit the GROUP as a whole (yet realizing you won't be able to please everyone). 

If you want AMG to be held in Europe then please cast your vote.

Please, continue to use this thread for casting your vote ONLY. 




ooops.  My apologies:

1. Amsterdam

2. Prague
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Lisa on October 30, 2007, 11:11:37 am
Chicago or Nashville
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: pozattitude on October 30, 2007, 11:13:07 am
Given the results of the survey so far, and giving consideration to non stop routes,  I vote for:

US
New York


Europe
Amsterdam

Rich
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: woodshere on October 30, 2007, 11:26:52 am
Chicago or Nashville

oooooooo, like that, change mine to Boston or Nashville
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Cliff on October 30, 2007, 11:36:28 am
I hope people don't rush to judge the location of AMG.  Issues of cost versus US entry requirements are difficult, but they have been considered during the planning of each AMG, (hence why the event was held outside the US for 2 of the 3 events and yet held in Canada to take advantage of exchange rates to still make the event affordable for everyone).  It's unfortunate that we live in an imperfect world, which forces us to make difficult decisions.  But we do.  And with that, my vote is:

1.  Boston
2.  Mexico City

Cliff

Who would love for the event to come to London, but read today that the US Dollar is at a 26 year low against the Sterling and at an all time low against the Euro.   :(
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Nico on October 30, 2007, 02:25:24 pm
My vote-

US
1 . Boston
2.  New York

Outside US

1. Toronto
2. Amsterdam
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Oceanbeach on October 31, 2007, 12:50:04 am
Only 2 choices?  I hate it when that happens...
1. Vancouver- heard you can buy medical marijuana in many stores and cafes.
2.  Mexico- except Ko Ko Roo.

Golly gee, I can't believe I just said "golly gee" I could be easily convinced to change my vote to Amsterdam, or London, Athens, Paris, Berlin, Lisbon, or Madrid.  Have the best day
Michael
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: vokz on October 31, 2007, 04:09:35 am
Amsterdam or Liverpool
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Optimistic on October 31, 2007, 06:59:48 am
1) Boston, MA
2) Key West, FL

Justin
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Jerry71 on October 31, 2007, 11:13:52 am
I know I stated that I would not attend AMG08 but my choice if I went would be.

1. Chicago

2. Nashville
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on October 31, 2007, 11:32:44 am
With Amsterdam receiving the most mention, I thought I'd do some research.  This is no way meant to influence votes but rather help everyone make an informed decision. 

I quickly checked airfare from New York City to Amsterdam on the following dates.

September 10 - 15  $679
September  3 -  8    $728
September 17 - 22  $679

Hotels are hovering in the $200 per night range for basic accommodations.  This is not taking into account any group discount I may be able to obtain.

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: carousel on October 31, 2007, 11:48:08 am
Can't help feeling that the above is an attempt to influence the vote, no matter how helpful it was intended.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: thunter34 on October 31, 2007, 11:56:37 am
Can't help feeling that the above is an attempt to influence the vote, no matter how helpful it was intended.

Hogwash.  I think the coordinator is just doing what he says he's doing:  presenting information based on the results presented thus far.

The States would financially be more realistic for me, but either London or Amsterdam would be splendid choices for overseas.

Carousel, I don't see that you have actually placed a vote to be influenced against.  Have you?  If so, what is it?
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: carousel on October 31, 2007, 12:00:15 pm
As I'm not allowed in the USA without having to disclose my status, or risking being banned as many have previously mentioned, my vote would for Europe.  Amsterdam.




edited for clarification
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 31, 2007, 12:13:35 pm
Well, speaking for myself I found that the post would "influence" votes too.  Hopefully thunter34 can cyber-slap me and make me see the errors of my ways.  :)

That said, I wasn't sure which was the "influence" was supposed to be working, but I digress.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: thunter34 on October 31, 2007, 12:20:37 pm
As I'm not allowed in the USA without having to disclose my status, or risking being banned as many have previously mentioned, my vote would for Europe.  Amsterdam.
edited for clarification

Yeah.  I peeked and saw you also mentioned Madrid.  All of the overseas places are wonderful.  I just don't know how I'd ever financially make such a trip.  But even if I can't go, I support the notion of placing it in range of those members who are over there...not only for the legal reasons, but in the interest of financial fairness.  There was a sizeable group from the UK at AMG 2007 whose presence enriched that trip immensely.  So even if I couldn't make it over, I still wouldn't be crying foul if that's the decision that's reached.

Maybe I'm wrong about the "influence" thing.  I just saw it in response to the prevailing responses thus far.  That said, some posted airfares for some of the other locations would be in order now I guess- for a more balanced perspective.

So both of you can slap me instead. 

Harder.   Ooh, yeah....that's how I like it.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: vokz on October 31, 2007, 12:29:26 pm
What do you call "basic" accommodation? It has taken me all of around 30 seconds to find deals (with reputable hotel chains) in central Amsterdam for closer to $100 (£50/ 65 Euros) per twin room / night.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on October 31, 2007, 12:32:03 pm
I haven't voted yet... believe it or not, I'm still checking flight prices, weather, transportation, etc for a few places. I do have a few questions / points:
 
1) How many voting have any intention at all of attending if it's held in North America or held abroad instead?
2) What's the language barrier going to be like... in Amsterdam, for example?
3) We don't live in NYC, so those prices aren't really relevant for us (I know it was just an example).  Here are some flight prices from here in NC to:
   -Amsterdam (via Philadelphia):  $818
   -Chicago: $218
   -Boston: $234
   -Vancouver: $572
   -Toronto: $593
   -Mexico City: $548
   -Seattle: $380
   -London:  $851
   -Los Angeles: $352

All rates are from www.sidestep.com (http://www.sidestep.com) for the dates of Sept. 10-15, 2008.  I realize these prices are not valid for anybody leaving from a different city, but it gives an idea of the differences in prices for various destinations.  Folks may want to consider what their ticket will cost when voting.  I know that both hubby and I can travel to Chicago or Boston and pay for half of our lodging for what one ticket to Amsterdam or London would cost.  Unless somebody can cover our tickets to those non-US locations, we won't be able to attend.  If I can't attend, I don't see that my vote should effect those who can.

Based on this, I'm going to have to vote for xxxxxxxxxxxx.  If this in any way influences anybody... good.  The simple economics influenced me.  Perhaps this also shows the need for a European AMG, which is often talked about but doesn't seem to get anywhere.

David

(edited to remove location vote)
(edited again to add location vote)

If there is a European AMG, anywhere is fine, as I (and I assume others) won't be able to attend due to cost.  In this case I'd vote for a smaller US gathering in Chicago, Boston, San Diego, or San Francisco.
If there's not a European AMG, then I'd vote for Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver.  I realize these are three choices.  I added Vancouver since we've not held an AMG there yet, but it's third since generally the most expensive to fly to and adds time and additional stops to the trip European travelers are making.

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on October 31, 2007, 12:33:48 pm
What do you call "basic" accommodation? It has taken me all of around 30 seconds to find deals (with reputable hotel chains) in central Amsterdam for closer to $100 (£50/ 65 Euros) per twin room / night.

If I'm not mistaken, proximity to public transportation, restaurants, and a 'friendly' area are also considered in the lodging choice. 
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 31, 2007, 12:41:40 pm


So both of you can slap me instead. 

Harder.   Ooh, yeah....that's how I like it.

... but can I wear lingerie?
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Cliff on October 31, 2007, 12:44:00 pm
€65 sounds a bit low for central AMS.    We do have standards!   ;D

I wonder if it's worth first considering whether or not AMG should be split into a US domestic event and an international one.

While I do agree that listing the flight costs could be seen as an "influence" on selections, I don't think it's out of bounds.  This was done last year.  I believe Vancouver was the front runner, but then someone did some airfare research and found that flights to Vancouver from most US cities (as well as abroad) were expensive ($400+), and because of that the city lost support.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 31, 2007, 12:51:28 pm

I wonder if it's worth first considering whether or not AMG should be split into a US domestic event and an international one.

Indeed, I thought that this was the "consensus" issue in the initial thread a month ago that we would decide this BEFORE voting on locations.  That seems to have been chucked out the window, doesn't it?

I still think listing only one destinations financial considerations mid-way through a vote is... odd.  Why not do it for four scenarios, and make them broad estimates?  Europe, Canada, US mid-west or something.  Anyway, I think most people realize that Chicago will cost $750 max for airfare, hotel and food and Europe will be double that (or more).  Canada is no longer a bargain for US residents at all, nothing is...

Warren Buffet just predicted a recession to, if we're not already in one in the US.  I'd say by next year money will be quite tight for those of us already currently in a tight situation.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 31, 2007, 12:57:23 pm

2) What's the language barrier going to be like... in Amsterdam, for example?


None, from what I recall though I will admit my last visit there was 20 years ago.  It's like Stockholm... even 16 year olds at the cash register in McDonald's speak good English -- it isn't like Paris.

Oh, and just some advice from a native:  always avoid a connecting flight in Philadelphia if at all possible... the airport is notoriously always delayed with flights, and you always have to go in/out of separate security points when moving among a couple of the six terminals, and we're not talking about large terminals.  It's the worst layout of an airport I've ever encountered for a major US city, unless they've made a recent change that I don't know about.  At the very least schedule yourself with ample extra time.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on October 31, 2007, 01:03:50 pm
Allow me to reiterate...my intentions are not to influence anyone's vote.  I am doing no more influencing than our friends against a US AMG.  In fact, an open vote such as this is influential.  

I am not only the coordinator but also a travel professional and feel it is my responsibility to help the group make informed decisions.  Take the information and do with it what you will.  I could have easily researched other US based cities and shown how inexpensive they are.  NYC was used as a starting ground for flights to Amsterdam considering most flights from the US will connect in NYC.

I am very well aware that cheap accommodations can be found in Amsterdam.  I am also aware of the needs and expectations of our members.   Especially those that will be traveling from the USA where hotel accommodations are a bit different than what you find in Europe.

In contrast, I am beginning to see how a Europe AMG may be possible with some fresh ideas as it may relate to fundraising and the grants committee.  

Please continue to vote as you see fit.



Can't help feeling that the above is an attempt to influence the vote, no matter how helpful it was intended.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on October 31, 2007, 01:04:28 pm
... even 16 year olds at the cash register in McDonald's speak good English -- it isn't like Paris.
Or even parts of the US, for that matter!   :D
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Iggy on October 31, 2007, 01:09:28 pm
Indeed, I thought that this was the "consensus" issue in the initial thread a month ago that we would decide this BEFORE voting on locations.  That seems to have been chucked out the window, doesn't it?

I'm not certain what happened to that either.  It would certainly take care of any concerns that I have about asking non-U.S. citizens to risk breaking U.S. laws.

I still think listing only one destinations financial considerations mid-way through a vote is... odd.  Why not do it for four scenarios, and make them broad estimates?  Europe, Canada, US mid-west or something. 

Agreed again. 

Modified:  I think Boston was mentioned as the leading U.S. contender (I may be wrong)  Why not show the costs for flights to Amsterdam/Boston from points in US/Europe/Australia/Latin Anerica.   That would be fair and unbiased.  Just listing what it costs a U.S. citizen to go to Amsterdam is in my opinion made to influence U.S. votes and ignores what it costs non-U.S. citizens to travel here.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: mjmel on October 31, 2007, 01:17:35 pm
votes withdrawn/not attending
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on October 31, 2007, 01:22:51 pm
If members from Europe were interested in gathering in the USA I would have researched and posted flights from Europe to Boston.  

Considering most of the votes for Amsterdam came from members based in the US I did what I would do for any of my customers to help them make an informed decision.  

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: allanq on October 31, 2007, 01:23:18 pm
Here's a thought about London as a possible location for the AMG.

During academic breaks (late June through August), you can book rooms in the dormitories of the University of London, which is in an excellent central London location. Daily breakfast and dinner (cafeteria style) are included.  

I have a friend who booked a theater tour from the U.S. and stayed there for ten days. He said the accommodations were fine and the location great. Some of the rooms had private baths.

This doesn't eliminate the high cost of airfare from the U.S., but it would bring down the cost of a European AMG.

In order to do this, the AMG would have to be held during the summer months.

Here's the website: http://www.london.ac.uk/halls.html (http://www.london.ac.uk/halls.html)

The website does not provide specific rates. You need to contact the residence halls directly by e-mail.

Allan

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on October 31, 2007, 01:25:25 pm
I think it's a bit much to ask Dennis to research flights to a bunch of destinations from a bunch of locations.  His post, in part, is what prompted me to research what tickets would cost us.  The link that I posted is to is a for a site that's easy to use, gives prices for various airlines, and is easy to modify to different destinations. 

David
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 31, 2007, 01:34:24 pm
David, nobody asked Dennis to research anything.  We merely were questioning the insertion, midway through the vote, of only one location.

I think everyone here knows how to look up flight prices on teh intrawebz.   I have no doubt that there was anything nefarious in his intentions, but it still can unquestionably color someone's voting.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on October 31, 2007, 01:42:41 pm
David, nobody asked Dennis to research anything.  We merely were questioning the insertion, midway through the vote, of only one location.

I think everyone here knows how to look up flight prices on teh intrawebz.   I have no doubt that there was anything nefarious in his intentions, but it still can unquestionably color someone's voting.

No problem.  I just didn't get the feeling that many had done this, which could have an influence on where they vote for it to be held.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: 404error on October 31, 2007, 02:04:02 pm
Quote
1. Vancouver- heard you can buy medical marijuana in many stores and cafes

There are two medical marijuana dispensaries in Vancouver.  The weed is of the highest quality but is over priced.  There is no discount in buying in bulk, it's the same price down the line, gram by gram.  I used to be a regular user of these shops when I first enrolled as it was something of a novelty.  However, that passed and I went back to buying from contacts.  There's no way I'm paying more than $50 for a quarter or $120 for an oz.  You can also smoke weed wherever you want to in the city.  With all the hardcore addiction to things like; crack, meth, and heroin the poilice really don't care about a little marijuana.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: pozattitude on October 31, 2007, 02:15:47 pm
There's no way I'm paying more than $50 for a quarter or $120 for an oz. 

That's cheap.....try no less than $45 for an 1/8 here in San Francisco....lol

I changed my mind...let's go to Vancouver.....LOL
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: manchesteruk on October 31, 2007, 04:22:17 pm
I quickly checked airfare from New York City to Amsterdam on the following dates.

September 10 - 15  $679
September  3 -  8    $728
September 17 - 22  $679

London to New York City

September 10 - 15  £376 ($781)
September  3 -  8   £376 ($781)
September 17 - 22  £376 ($781)

Here are some flight prices from here in NC to:
   -Amsterdam (via Philadelphia):  $818
   -Chicago: $218
   -Boston: $234
   -Vancouver: $572
   -Toronto: $593
   -Mexico City: $548
   -Seattle: $380
   -London:  $851
   -Los Angeles: $352

All quotes from same website on same dates.  Flying from London.

Amsterdam:  £76 ($158)
Chicago: £434 ($902)
Boston: £381 ($792)
Vancouver: £538 ($1,118)
Toronto: £472 ($981)
Mexico City: £651 ($1,353)
Seattle: £501 ($1,041)
Los Angeles: £479 ($995)





Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 31, 2007, 04:34:15 pm
London is about double what it was 7 years ago when I used to fly out of NYC there regularly.

Of course, all prices are off once Dubya drops a couple bombs on Tehran.  Gas prices will immediately double.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on October 31, 2007, 05:34:15 pm
Amsterdam:  £76 ($158)
Chicago: £434 ($902)
Boston: £381 ($792)
Vancouver: £538 ($1,118)
Toronto: £472 ($981)
Mexico City: £651 ($1,353)
Seattle: £501 ($1,041)
Los Angeles: £479 ($995)
plus altho these flights are from london we'd be flying out of manchester which immediately adds at least another £150/$300

at this point it appears timely to point out that personally i offered the suggestion of the non-US american continent rather than the european out of consideration of the cost implications for our american members.

anyone want to note the difference in price between amsterdam and (eg) vancouver? yes, that's right, i am prepared to offer to pay nearly A THOUSAND DOLLARS MORE in flight costs to see you guys on your own continent. all i am asking in return is that you find a couple hundred dollars more to go a bit further up or down your own continent so that youre not asking me to COMMIT A FELONY in order to see you all.

and in case you were wondering i am not rich, a thousand dollars is a huge amount of money for me. a flight anywhere long haul is. clearly amsterdam would be much more affordable for me than canada/mexico. but out of consideration for the others who say there is no way they could afford to come to europe i would try to do it. im still paying off my san fran flight & hotel costs now. and more importantly still paranoid about the potential ramifications of having illegally entered the US to attend a publicised (on the internet) poz event. 
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: MSPspud on October 31, 2007, 05:34:58 pm
1.  Chicago
2.  Amsterdam
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 31, 2007, 05:46:36 pm
my blood pressure is rising
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on October 31, 2007, 05:59:51 pm
my blood pressure is rising
not as much as mine did going thru immigration on the way to san fran...
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 31, 2007, 06:11:32 pm
not as much as mine did going thru immigration on the way to san fran...
I told you to stock up on klonopin, darling.  Takes the edge off as you pass the Praetorian Guard.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: allanq on October 31, 2007, 06:48:02 pm
I told you to stock up on klonopin, darling.  Takes the edge off as you pass the Praetorian Guard.

I don't know whether you're trying to be funny or just missing the point.

I'm sure that what englishgirl is referring to is not just those few minutes of going through U.S. customs. The stress starts from the moment you commit to buying a ticket, when you wonder if you're going to be sent back and denied entry forever. Emma (gemini20) bought her ticket and then got so stressed out that she forfeited the ticket and stayed home. I don't blame her.

Allan
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on October 31, 2007, 06:57:46 pm
I don't know whether you're trying to be funny or just missing the point.

I'm sure that what englishgirl is referring to is not just those few minutes of going through U.S. customs. The stress starts from the moment you commit to buying a ticket, when you wonder if you're going to be sent back and denied entry forever. Emma (gemini20) bought her ticket and then got so stressed out that she forfeited the ticket and stayed home. I don't blame her.

Allan


I was being funny.  I've talked to englishgirl about it, and I take klonopin for anxiety myself so more than familiar with what it feels like.  So that is why I suggested the klonopin.

That said, I do think some of the more vocal elements are over-worrying, as they've specifically stated they're not even on HIV medications so there goes that pill argument.  I can't honestly say that if it was me and I was not a US citizen, that I'd not worry, but then again I'd be traveling with vials of fuzeon which there's no way to hide it.

Frankly there's no easy solution to this issue, as I've stated previously.  And now that there seems to be two firm sides in the equation it seems that nobody wants to compromise.  To be honest, I don't particularly care -- if AMG is held somewhere I can afford to travel to I'll go.  If not I'm not going to whine about it.  No reason to hold others here hostage to my personal financial situation.

Bottom line:  I still fail to understand why this most very basic of issues was not settled before we held a vote on site location.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on October 31, 2007, 07:06:21 pm
Bottom line:  I still fail to understand why this most very basic of issues was not settled before we held a vote on site location.
me too.

thanks allan for understanding what us foreigners go through xxxx

ps for the record folks i knew philly was being funny. i know EVERYTHING. that's why you should all agree with me  ;D ;D

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Ric Wilke on October 31, 2007, 09:02:31 pm
I'm going to make this as easy as possible for the Coordinator to count my vote:

1)  Chicago
2)  Nashville

Thom tried to vote using his own log-on using User Name:  Thom Martin.  But it seems that AIDSmeds.com will not allow two individuals who share an I.P. address (the same computer) to have individual accounts.  We understand this position from a security standpoint.

Having said that, Thom casts his votes as follows:

1)  Chicago
2)  Nashville

If one of the moderators can help us with the I.P. issue, we'd be very grateful.

Regards, Ric and Thom

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Dan J. on October 31, 2007, 10:38:45 pm
Why Nashville? I fail to see the attraction.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Ric Wilke on November 01, 2007, 12:58:52 am
With all due respect Dan, but this is our vote.  When you vote for a President, are you asked to qualify why you think that this is the best candidate?  Why make the tabulation of this vote even harder for the Coordinator?  This is a VOTE, not a debate.

Respectifully, Ric

PS Dan,  We hope you are able to fly tomorrow and give Hermie a hug for us.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Matty the Damned on November 01, 2007, 07:14:50 am
1. Sydney
2. Vladivostok

They're in the same time zone.

MtD
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Dachshund on November 01, 2007, 07:28:17 am
This is a VOTE, not a debate.

Respectifully, Ric



Thank you Ric! The AMG Coordinator simply asked for people to vote for their two choices of cities.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2007, 08:04:38 am
Thank you Ric! The AMG Coordinator simply asked for people to vote for their two choices of cities.

All due respect Hal....that is not true by definition of what Dennis as the coordinator has done repeatedly in this thread.

He has released selective airfares and survey results in a thread he himself states in ONLY for voting...just like you making your comments on this thread and asking that people not make comments and only vote...You can't have it both ways.

But since you brought up the vote point - I think what is important is people understand what they are voting for.

Do members who vote for a U.S. destination realize that their vote is  for asking any non-u.s. member to commit immigration fraud?  I'm just curious.  So many people say we should know about the costs for places as being a valid form of information to influence the vote - but not the fact that we would be drawing a line to our non-U.S. members to either commit a crime or just stay away? 

I'm sorry folks, but paint it any way you wish but it does boil down to that point.




Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 01, 2007, 09:28:02 am
But since you brought up the vote point - I think what is important is people understand what they are voting for.

Do members who vote for a U.S. destination realize that their vote is  for asking any non-u.s. member to commit immigration fraud?  I'm just curious.  So many people say we should know about the costs for places as being a valid form of information to influence the vote - but not the fact that we would be drawing a line to our non-U.S. members to either commit a crime or just stay away? 

I'm sorry folks, but paint it any way you wish but it does boil down to that point.
im finding it very interesting and very disappointing how many members of this forum claim to be politically concerned and interested in activism, but with their actions in this thread are unmasking their own hypocrisy.

and with that comment i think i'll do as our co-ordinator asks and refrain from discussion in this thread. please refer to the thread i have started on this matter: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16816.new#new
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: sweetasmeli on November 01, 2007, 09:30:17 am
Even though I’ve been having a bit of a break from the forums lately, I’ve been peeking at this thread (under a certain bossy madam’s orders! ;)) with some curiosity to see what will come of the discussion points and issues raised concerning the laws surrounding non-US citizens entering the US.

I personally hadn’t thought too long and hard about the legal ramifications of my entering the US until I attended AMG. My personal visits to friends are one thing; the questions at immigration were easy enough to answer without having to lie or sidestep. But attending a gathering of an internet group exclusively made up of HIV+ people, most of whom I’d never met? Not only did I have to lie, but the line of questioning was harder to sidestep. I admit my stomach was churning somewhat until I made it safely through the check point.

It has been pointed out over and over again by several folk here that to hold AMG in the US means certain members either being excluded (through choosing not to attend because of the laws) or committing a felony and risking all future exclusion from the US. Yet so many members are still voting for the US.

I’m not backward about coming forward and saying what I think and today I’m not going to sugar coat my thoughts with diplomacy.

It seems clear to me that there are many on here that really don’t seem to care about the legal predicament that non-US members are being put in (even though they say they do) because they are continuing to vote US regardless of the quandary in question.

I find that quite disappointing and I fully understand certain members’ frustration.

I only have one vote: Any place that doesn’t have entry restrictions for HIV+ folk.

Am I being unrealistic here or doesn’t that suggestion stand to reason?

Debra
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Gilles on November 01, 2007, 09:48:42 am
1. Boston
2. Mexico City
 :) ;) :)
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on November 01, 2007, 10:45:20 am
Am I being unrealistic here or doesn’t that suggestion stand to reason?

Hi Debra,

Financially, it may be possibly unrealistic for many members.  I think what this points out more than anything else is that there should be an AMG somewhere in Europe.  After meeting so many people in SF, some who are not HIV+, you can honestly say you are meeting friends for vacation without having to lie.   ;)

This next part isn't directed towards you in particular.  My question would be why hasn't anybody actually started planning one... getting locations, dates, etc?  When I plan a party, our Christmas party, for example, I keep a few things in mind.  One is I actually pick a date that won't interfere with most people's holiday plans.  Another is I choose a location, which generally is at our house.  Then, I plan the damned thing. 

Why hasn't somebody said "screw it, let's have an AMG in Amsterdam sometime in July.  I'm planning on being there from July xx through the xx at _________ hotel."  Honestly, that's all it would take.  If it was in my budget, I'd be there too.  It's not, so I won't / can't.  But that doesn't mean that many Europeans, or even US citizens, can't attend.  I think many who can't, or won't, attend a US based AMG for whatever reason would benefit from this.  Personally, I think it's a bit much to ask somebody who's all the way on the West Coast of the US to do this... time zones for calls, long distance charges, etc.  How about somebody who lives in Amsterdam, or who lives fairly close and has been there before, start planning this.

I hate the fact that HIV is even an issue for entry.  At this point, I don't see a lot of ways around this, except for a Canadian location and LOTS of fund raising to assist others to attend or(and)  having an AMG 'over there'.

David
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 01, 2007, 10:51:36 am
After meeting so many people in SF, some who are not HIV+, you can honestly say you are meeting friends for vacation without having to lie.   ;)

eerm, NO
the immigration form asks you to declare that you are free of communicable diseases. it is the entry to the states that is a problem, not who you are meeting up with once there
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2007, 10:54:33 am
My question would be why hasn't anybody actually started planning one... getting locations, dates, etc?  When I plan a party, our Christmas party, for example, I keep a few things in mind.  One is I actually pick a date that won't interfere with most people's holiday plans.  Another is I choose a location, which generally is at our house.  Then, I plan the damned thing. 

Why hasn't somebody said "screw it, let's have an AMG in Amsterdam sometime in July.  I'm planning on being there from July xx through the xx at _________ hotel."  Honestly, that's all it would take.

David,

All due respect your question is based on the assumption (at least it reads that way) that the AMG is an American event and why don't the non-Americans start planning their own?  I thought the AMG stood for AIDSMEDS GATHERING and therefore is for all members of AIDSMEDS?

Why should the non-U.S. members be asked to not participate in the planning the same way as the U.S. members when we are discussiing the next AMG or suggested that they plan their own event?

And I need to state while I understand about the costs - why is that only considered a viable issue for the Americans?  For three years now the non-U.S. members have gone to considerable cost to travel to North America, why are U.S. citizens not thinking that it works both ways?
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on November 01, 2007, 11:10:55 am
David,

All due respect your question is based on the assumption (at least it reads that way) that the AMG is an American event and why don't the non-Americans start planning their own?  I thought the AMG stood for AIDSMEDS GATHERING and therefore is for all members of AIDSMEDS?

Why should the non-U.S. members be asked to not participate in the planning the same way as the U.S. members when we are discussiing the next AMG or suggested that they plan their own event?

And I need to state while I understand about the costs - why is that only considered a viable issue for the Americans?  For three years now the non-U.S. members have gone to considerable cost to travel to North America, why are U.S. citizens not thinking that it works both ways?


Iggy, with all due respect, how much work are YOU personally willing to put into planning this?  Are you even planning on attending (just curious)?  The majority of members of this board, I believe, are in the US.  For the maximum number of people to attend, it had to be held in North America.  If I lived in Europe, believe me, I would try and get something going over there.  I've seen others bring up the point before, but not much seems to come from it.  Why?  I realize the situation, financial and legal, that this places on others, especially from Europe.  Why has nothing been started there?  Why? 

David
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2007, 11:16:27 am
Iggy, with all due respect, how much work are YOU personally willing to put into planning this?  Are you even planning on attending (just curious)?  The majority of members of this board, I believe, are in the US.  For the maximum number of people to attend, it had to be held in North America.  If I lived in Europe, believe me, I would try and get something going over there.  I've seen others bring up the point before, but not much seems to come from it.  Why?  I realize the situation, financial and legal, that this places on others, especially from Europe.  Why has nothing been started there?  Why? 

David

David - How much work have you put in planning the last one?

Yes. I'm planning on going. 

Not sure what any of those points though mean to asking non-U.S. citizens to either commit a fraud or start their own event as the U.S. citizens care more about costs.

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 01, 2007, 11:17:35 am
what this is telling me is that some people would rather us europeans would just fuck off and hold our own amg. sorry but i thought we were all meant to be trying to be TOGETHER.

it is only a few hundred dollars difference in price between a US and a canadian destination. obviously some people are prepared to sell the rights of foreign poz board members down the river for such a small amount.

i understand that many people have the need of financial assistance to get to amg, and think that the option suggested by david is the most realistic:
At this point, I don't see a lot of ways around this, except for a Canadian location and LOTS of fund raising to assist others to attend

I realize the situation, financial and legal, that this places on others, especially from Europe.  Why has nothing been started there?  Why? 
oh, ok, i'm beginning to realise that us europeans are viewed as crashing the american party. sorry about that.

again, i refer people to my thread on the matter http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16816.new#new

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: gerry on November 01, 2007, 11:22:22 am
David - How much work have you put in planning the last one?

Yes. I'm planning on going. 

Not sure what any of those points though mean to asking non-U.S. citizens to either commit a fraud or start their own event as the U.S. citizens care more about costs.



Iggy,

David was a very important part of the Grants Committee for the SF AMG.  Just thought you ought to know that.

Gerry
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on November 01, 2007, 11:29:07 am
englishgirl,

I didn't say that I didn't want you to attend or that you were crashing a party.  I was trying to get the point across that, if something was important to me, as having a European AMG is to many, I'd start planning one that many could attend... due to financial or legal restrictions.  Canada is still more expensive to you guys than, say, Amsterdam.  Even if the US didn't have the BS restrictions, it would still be out of reach for many Europeans.  That's all that I meant, and I'm disappointed that you would even read negativity into my post after meeting us in SF.

At this point, I really couldn't care less where it is.  If we can attend, we will.  I'll be willing to assist however I can.

David
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 01, 2007, 11:41:53 am
I didn't say that I didn't want you to attend or that you were crashing a party.  I was trying to get the point across that, if something was important to me, as having a European AMG is to many, I'd start planning one that many could attend... due to financial or legal restrictions.  Canada is still more expensive to you guys than, say, Amsterdam.  Even if the US didn't have the BS restrictions, it would still be out of reach for many Europeans. 
david youre misunderstanding what i have said throughout this thread. it isnt my objective to have a european amg, it is my objective to have amg in a country which meets the following:
legal entry for poz people
fairly cheap
fairly easy to get to

that is why i have only ever suggested canada and mexico.

i have also stated repeatedly that i personally would be prepared to fork out a lot more in order to get to canada because i know that so many americans couldnt afford to come to europe cos i thought the whole point was meant to be that we tried to be TOGETHER.

as far as cost goes, i cant think of any europeans who have specifically stated that they wouldnt go to canada cos it's too expensive.

PLEASE can we all sort out whether or not the US should even be considered as a destination? either people care whether we foreigners can come or not. simple as. can we not sort that out instead of bickering amongst ourselves about which continent it's on? i'm disappointed nearly to the point of giving up entirely.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2007, 11:45:41 am
Iggy,

David was a very important part of the Grants Committee for the SF AMG.  Just thought you ought to know that.

Gerry

Gerry,  Thank you for letting me know that as I was previously unaware...yet this knowledge greatly surprises me based off of David's my understanding the greater issue.

Surely those who understand that the AMG works to collect donations for the board to partipate must also understand that to suggest that Europeans plan their own event would then be either asking board members who wish to donate funds to then choose between two groups?  Or is there a suggestion that only he US AMG be open for donations.

If help is needed in the AMG's I'm available, but don't see it as any answer or any releveance to the basic question we are facing here.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: thunter34 on November 01, 2007, 11:48:11 am
I just want to say to everyone to please be careful of how you paint my buddy, David.  I know in my heart his aim is not to be divisive or exclusionary.  If he is suggesting multiple AMG events, he is only - ONLY - trying to frame it in terms of making this type of event workable for the greatest number of people.

I have to say that I feel like such a dolt about this whole thing.  I was totally in the belief that this issue was supposed to have been resolved like AN ENTIRE YEAR AGO by the Bush camp.  In fact, I thought San Francisco was selected partly in celebration of that fact.  It wasn't until closer to the event that I became aware otherwise.

I've been staying largely out of these time and location vote threads because it's all rather early for me to conclusively say whether or not I will make it to the AMG wherever it may end up.  I most certainly want to, though.  But since my reading through these threads has been dicey, I'm not sure if it has already been suggested or not - but we COLLECTIVELY - ought to take this opportunity to raise our voices about this situation no matter where AMG(s) may end up being.  
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 01, 2007, 11:51:16 am
PLEASE can we all sort out whether or not the US should even be considered as a destination? either people care whether we foreigners can come or not. simple as. can we not please sort that out instead of bickering amongst ourselves about which continent it's on? i'm disappointed nearly to the point of giving up entirely.

again: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16816.new#new
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: sweetasmeli on November 01, 2007, 11:59:11 am
I just want to say to everyone to please be careful of how you paint my buddy, David.  I know in my heart his aim is not to be divisive or exclusionary.

This is not aimed at David but it does need pointing out Tim, that with the US laws standing as they do, to even suggest or plan towards holding AMG events in the US is divisive and exclusionary by default.

Debra
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: sweetasmeli on November 01, 2007, 12:01:37 pm
PLEASE can we all sort out whether or not the US should even be considered as a destination?

And I second this.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 01, 2007, 12:03:42 pm
I'm not sure if it has already been suggested or not - but we COLLECTIVELY - ought to take this opportunity to raise our voices about this situation no matter where AMG(s) may end up being.  
timmy, in another thread iggy suggested days ago that:
I think that should be there be two steps taken here.

An agreement that no official AMGs be held in a place that discriminates against poz people (indigenous or those wish to travel to it) and an official campaign to fight the discrimination in the U.S.

i cant believe we even have to discuss whether to hold it in the US or not
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on November 01, 2007, 12:16:27 pm
I thought the AMG stood for AIDSMEDS GATHERING and therefore is for all members of AIDSMEDS?

Iggy, as much as I love and adore you this line of argument, while sounding nice in a rhetorical way and indeed a truthful statement on its surface, is disingenuous.  The either/or equation of US v. non-US location will prevent some AIDSmeds-ers from attending.  The question should really be, which scenario will allow the most to attend, or if there is a compromise, what location balance out the issue?

The bottom line is that someone is going to be left out.  It would be nice if we knew what numbers we were talking about.

Also for others in the thread, if we are to have the next AMG in Europe, are you in essence asking that NO future AMGs ever be held in the US?  Or are you willing to sit out every other year like some US residents will have to, as a fair compromise?
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 01, 2007, 12:18:55 pm
Also for others in the thread, if we are to have the next AMG in Europe, are you in essence asking that NO future AMGs ever be held in the US?  Or are you willing to sit out every other year like some US residents will have to, as a fair compromise?
all i am asking is that we exclude countries which bar pozzies from entry and then vote on a location.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: thunter34 on November 01, 2007, 12:23:46 pm
timmy, in another thread iggy suggested days ago....etc etc.

I suspected as much.  I shall investigate further.  Thanks.


And an EDIT:  I'm still kind of confused about this whole thing.  I thought this was the very reason the initial AMG's were held outside the U.S. (Montreal and Toronto).  Like I said, I thought SF was selected because this legal mess had been corrected.  If it hasn't, then wouldn't we be by default back at our original stance on this...holding outside the U.S?  In other words, looking at it this way, this isn't really a new argument being made, is it?  Sort of a recognition that this is still a proverbial elephant, right? 

Gosh, this whole thing really sucketh big time.  I really hope we can get this sorted.  I hate this tension way out here at the outset- because AMG in and of itself rocks.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on November 01, 2007, 12:34:08 pm
all i am asking is that we exclude countries which bar pozzies from entry and then vote on a location.

So no US location, ever -- correct?  Even if that means (hypothetically, in the absence of financial information with the fundraising) that means 10 US residents are prevented from attending versus 2 non-US residents not attending? 

It's important to be clear about this, and it's hard to do so unless someone REALLY involved on the fundraising side can present how this effects attendance numbers... how many can/cannot go based on location.

Otherwise we're all kind of shooting in the dark, a point I've tried to make over and over.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: vokz on November 01, 2007, 12:42:17 pm
So no US location, ever -- correct? 

No, not if President Bush honours his commitment, of December 2006, to issue an executive order easing the restriction.

Then again, if you don't trust your President to honour his word ....

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/12/20061201-2.html
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: The Canuck on November 01, 2007, 12:48:42 pm
Quote
I was totally in the belief that this issue was supposed to have been resolved like AN ENTIRE YEAR AGO by the Bush camp.

Is it possible the fact he committed to resolve this issue and although the law hasn't been officially changed yet, he could had give the '' order '' so-to-speak not to enforce it ?

Regards,

The Canuck
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 01, 2007, 12:53:48 pm
philly, yes, figures would be interesting. anyone??

why cant we just decide year on year whether our consciences will allow us to select the US? because as timmy pointed out this was meant to have been resolved already by your govt, and that was the only reason that the last amg was held in the US, so surely the conversation was had a few years ago regarding whether amg should be held in the us while the ban still stood. why has that decision just been disregarded?

canuck: the info i have received from both US and UK sources say that the ban is still being enforced, sorry cant remember where from

in the meantime every member of these boards should be writing to their congressman to get the law changed. (and before you ask, my local MP has already said his bit)
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: woodshere on November 01, 2007, 01:05:10 pm
The original question posed to us was:

Time to vote for next years AMG destination!  I'm interested in everyone's TOP 2 choices.  I urge anyone who may have an interest in attending next year to please cast your vote.  

I was so jealous of those who attended AMG in San Fran.  But due to schedule conflicts I was unable to attend.  That is why I am so excited that a date might be selected soon that will enable me to get it on my calendar now, as I already have weddings booked for as late as November 2008.

For me to gain anything from an AMG I have to be able to attend and that depends primarily on what I can afford.  I am a very cheap traveller.  I was in SF in Aug for vacation and spent less that $650 on a roundtrip ticket and 6 nights lodging at a B&B.  It wasn't the Ritz but it was adequate.  So I voted for the two best choices for me.  My vote had nothing to do with how I feel about US policies, what is political or what is not.  And by no means should someone assume this about me
what this is telling me is that some people would rather us europeans would just fuck off and hold our own amg. sorry but i thought we were all meant to be trying to be TOGETHER.

it is only a few hundred dollars difference in price between a US and a canadian destination. obviously some people are prepared to sell the rights of foreign poz board members down the river for such a small amount.

i understand that many people have the need of financial assistance to get to amg, and think that the option suggested by david is the most realistic:oh, ok, i'm beginning to realise that us europeans are viewed as crashing the american party. sorry about that.

again, i refer people to my thread on the matter http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16816.new#new


But after reading many of Iggy's posts, really thinking about community, and being united and supportive of one another, I think an annual AMG should not be held in the US.  Everyone has the option of developing their regional gatherings, but the grant's committee, coordinator and other AMG volunteers should concentrate on a single AMG.  Where AMG is held really makes no difference to me if I can afford to go I will.

Woods

Just a side note - a few hundred dollars does make a difference.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: thunter34 on November 01, 2007, 01:18:00 pm
That's a most wonderful post, Woods. 
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on November 01, 2007, 01:21:17 pm
I would like to request that the Grants Committee present projected finances for US/Canada/Europe locations, how much money would be expected to be raised for these 3 scenarios, and how this translates into how many people can attend.

Keep in mind it's NOT just the po' folks at issue, the location will greatly impact how much money is raised.  I don't wish to offend our non-US board members, but I've gotten the feeling that most of the grant money raised is by US members, probably because they make up a greater percentage on the board (and also because the Euros are spending more to travel to North America of course, but we're also talking about less in numbers).

Basically I want to know, and I think it's important for the discussion, that for every location outside of the US, how does that impact fundraising and how does that translate into how many less can attend?

Let's be quite clear, EACH location decision will impact someone, albeit for different reasons.  There's a lot of overly emotional points being made here and in the other thread, with little to no actual understanding of the financial considerations -- and yes, that IS a reality.  I'm all for appropriate political considerations, but I'm also a very pragmatic person.  I just think it should be clear what we're talking about and in the absence of this information I find it hard to arrive at any consensus.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Cliff on November 01, 2007, 01:41:11 pm
By my count, Amsterdam is in the lead, and by a significant margin (particularly if the first choice is given extra weight over the second).  Perhaps all this discussion is moot and there isn't any need in continuing to beat a dead horse or ask the Grant Committee to provide projected cash flow requirements for multiple locations.

Why don't we just let the vote continue? 

Cliff
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: pozattitude on November 01, 2007, 01:45:48 pm
after reviewing this discussion I change my vote from New York to Vancouver if in the Americas.
I stand with Amsterdam in Europe

Rich
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: David_CA on November 01, 2007, 01:56:13 pm
Philly and Cliff both have a very valid point here.  I'd like this info also.

David
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Alain on November 01, 2007, 03:39:06 pm
QUOTE...
Is it possible the fact he committed to resolve this issue and although the law hasn't been officially changed yet, he could had give the '' order '' so-to-speak not to enforce it ?

Regards,

The Canuck....end of QUOTE

I strongly believe that in a court of law it would give grounds (a tool as in the intention to lift the ban) in order to fight legally this HIV ban....according to my source....the only thing is to get him to pass the law which is not a priority right now....
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Alain on November 01, 2007, 03:50:08 pm
I can't help thinking that for our American friends there is not much  incentives to go outside the USA for obvious reasons which I understand.....Airfare, hotels and spending money.

Can't help thinking that AMG stand for American Mega(Members) Gathering, as for all others including myself, I feel that and sounds like, it is up to us to do our own somewhere else or just not be able participating at all.

And quite frankly I am aware that the majority rules having been part on an union all my life, but keep in mind that it is not speaking for all, at all times.

Just saying.

BTW my vote is anywhere outside the Continental United States.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: heartforyou on November 01, 2007, 06:51:32 pm
Changing my vote to Vancouver or Toronto.
United we stand.

Hermie
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2007, 06:56:58 pm
Iggy, as much as I love and adore you this line of argument, while sounding nice in a rhetorical way and indeed a truthful statement on its surface, is disingenuous.  The either/or equation of US v. non-US location will prevent some AIDSmeds-ers from attending.  The question should really be, which scenario will allow the most to attend, or if there is a compromise, what location balance out the issue?

The bottom line is that someone is going to be left out.  It would be nice if we knew what numbers we were talking about.

Also for others in the thread, if we are to have the next AMG in Europe, are you in essence asking that NO future AMGs ever be held in the US?  Or are you willing to sit out every other year like some US residents will have to, as a fair compromise?

Hey Philly,

Wanted to get back to you 

I don't think it is disingenuous though I do appreciate and understand why you may suggest it seems that way.  My reference as it being for ALL members can not in any way obviously imply that all members always have the ability to make an AMG...and let's face it - even if it is the U.S. doesn't mean that every U.S. member can attend anyway.  My statement was solely in regards that we don't choose a location that clearly prevents legally  (by local law) any member from attending unless they commit fraud.

And Yes.  I do think that until the U.S. government lifts the ban we should not hold any future AMG's in the U.S.  I personally  just can't understand a gathering that's origins are based on a support board for people with HIV and all the issues they face (including discrimination) committing to an event in a location that specifically discriminates against them from entering.  Anything less than that seems disingenuous to me in regards to the name of the gathering and its promotion, planning and fundraising in these boards. 

  But since my reading through these threads has been dicey, I'm not sure if it has already been suggested or not - but we COLLECTIVELY - ought to take this opportunity to raise our voices about this situation no matter where AMG(s) may end up being. 

I have dropped the ball on this issue slightly.  I had proposed to have something out for all today but have both been distracted by this more immediate discussion and a little matter at home that needed my attention.  I do think it is something worthy of all of us getting involved and will be posting something probably later tomorrow. 

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Razorbill on November 01, 2007, 07:08:30 pm
I guess i missed this vote, since it no longer appears.  Any destination is fine, as long at it is not in September. 
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 01, 2007, 07:13:41 pm
we're still voting up until 17th nov

please could you be so kind as to read my thread before you decide where to vote for? http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16816.0

thank you
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Ric Wilke on November 01, 2007, 07:45:23 pm
I'm very puzzled by much of this discussion.  After spending just short of a week in San Fransisco with friends from across both ponds, I don't recall the subject of anyone feeling uncomfortable going through US Customs ever coming to the surface.  Damn, Hermie does it all the time.  Dame Jan has done it three years in a row.  Now we are worried about being branded with the "Big F", a felon?

And cowardalehouse, you insult the members by referring to AMG as "American Megamember Gathering."  Just what do you think this sort of comment has added to this already heated discussion?  Please don't start a flamewar.  This does not help the atmosphere one little bit.

With respect to all, Ric
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: carousel on November 01, 2007, 08:14:27 pm
Ric

Wasn't Alain (Cowandalehouse, please note spelling) banned from ever entering the US for being HIV and therefore unable to attend any AMG in that country.

I don't think he was flamebaiting.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: allopathicholistic on November 01, 2007, 08:28:01 pm
I dunno but something tells me Dublin Ireland  would be a belly-laffin blast of a good time!
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Matty the Damned on November 01, 2007, 08:54:29 pm
Wasn't Alain (Cowandalehouse, please note spelling) banned from ever entering the US for being HIV and therefore unable to attend any AMG in that country.

I don't think he was flamebaiting.


I'm pretty sure that's the case.

MtD
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: aztecan on November 01, 2007, 09:37:58 pm
OK gang,

Here are my top two choices:

1 Mexico City, Mexico

http://www.allaboutmexicocity.com/

2 Vancouver, British Colombia, Canada

http://www.travel.bc.ca/


I have listed them in my order of preference. I fear many could not afford a European jaunt at this time, especially if the dollar doesn't recover.

Mexico City would be fun, economical and an adventure all rolled into one. In addition, there is this incentive:

Quote
Some food for thought:

The 17th International AIDS Conference is taking place in Mexico City from August 3 to 8, 2008. An AMG immediately following the conference might be an option to consider, with some folks arriving early to attend the conference itself. Here's a link to the official conference website.  There are plenty of affordable hotels throughout Mexico City and the weather is quite agreeable (plus, the famous Mexico City smog is considerably better in the summer months). As for the water supply, NOBODY should be drinking from the tap -- bottled water is in abundance and restaurants, more times than not, use iodine to help sterilize water used for washing vegetables and such, especially those to be eaten raw.

I lived in Mexico City for two years, so if I can be of any help in furthering this as a suggestion, please let me know.

Tim Horn
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 04:02:02 PM by Tim Horn »

Anyway, there you have my 2¢ worth.

HUGS,

Mark
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Robert on November 01, 2007, 10:11:39 pm
I've already voted and my vote was as follows:

1.  Amsterdam
2.  Amsterdam.

First of all, I really, really agree with Sweetmelia and Debra that it is just not fair to subject anyone to the capricious laws of the US.  AMG exists to celebrate our lives with each other without the fear of stigma or discrimination.
 
Secondly, The AMG is a gathering from all over he world.  It only seems fair to share it with the rest of the world vis-a-vis alternating continents and/or hemispheres so it can be available to everyone.

We don't know how many people will come to an (a) European conference because we've never done it.  How will we know unless we try? (And don't forget last year quite a few of them met in Amsterdam and had a great time.)   The 1st two AMG's in Canada were a great success in a large part because of the many local attendees (who, by the way, didn't come to SF because of that stupid law.)  I can't imagine why a gathering in Europe would be any different.

Now, if people want to have regional gatherings, that's fine.  But I think the Grant Committee should be set up to focus only on the international gathering.
 
The Grant Committee is not part of the planning committee.
 
The Grant Committee does not decide where or when the Gathering is. 

The Grant Committee does not negotiate hotel rates or fares.
 
The Grant Committee does not plan the events.
 
The AMG coordinator does plans the agenda(usually with the assistance of a local delegate) and he has absolutely nothing to do with the Grant Committee. 

The Grant Committee collects the money and distributes the money for the greatest good (IE.  allowing the greatest number to attend.)   This year most (but not all) of the grant money was allocated to people here in the States primarily so a larger number could attend.  If the next AMG were held in Europe, I would imagine most of the money would be distributed to Europeans who needed financial assistance.  It would only make sense.   

Where the AMG is held should not affect the generosity of our donors.

robert

(Who doesn't know if he's going to Amsterdam but certainly going to try.  Life is too short to stay on the farm. )

edited for clairty...not that that helps much
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Ric Wilke on November 01, 2007, 10:12:54 pm
carousel, if you have nothing positive to add, may I suggest that you keep your fingers to yourself?  And talk to my hand, I'm not listening to anything you have to say.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Oceanbeach on November 01, 2007, 10:47:19 pm
 ;D
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: anniebc on November 02, 2007, 12:20:07 am


Quote
I personally hadn't thought too long and hard about the legal ramifications of my entering the US until I attended AMG. My personal visits to friends are one thing; the questions at immigration were easy enough to answer without having to lie or sidestep. But attending a gathering of an internet group exclusively made up of HIV+ people, most of whom I'd never met? Not only did I have to lie, but the line of questioning was harder to sidestep.

Hi Mela
I may be missing something here but can you explain to me why it is different/easier to visit friends in the US than it is visiting with a group..and why are the questions so different..I'm finding it hard to see the difference.

Also
Quote
I only have one vote: Any place that doesn't have entry restrictions for HIV+ folk.

Given the first statement does this mean you won't be visiting friends in the US anymore..I'm just curious.

I haven't put a destination/vote forward yet because to be honest I've lost track of the original post..this has gone so off topic I don't know where it is anymore..so I'm withholding my vote until it gets back on track.

Or maybe I will just join Matty in Sydney or Vladivostok... ;)
Hugs
Jan
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Matty the Damned on November 02, 2007, 12:25:01 am
Or maybe I will just join Matty in Sydney or Vladivostok...

Absolutely babe. :) We'll paint Vladivostok red. ;)

MtD
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Ric Wilke on November 02, 2007, 12:54:45 am
Dame Jan and Matty the Damned,

Hey, I rather like how that sounds!

Thom and I will save our money and join you in Vladivostok.  At least there will be no snipping.

Love you both, R&T
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: naftalim on November 02, 2007, 02:13:27 am
I'd like to make a suggestion. Lets look at this from a budget point of view as well. What is the average amount that would be spent to get to either a European or North American Destination? Once we arrive at that figure we can then look at how many non-North American members there are that would like to go. I am assuming that there are a larger percentage of US residents on this forum.  So, lets say there are a total of 75 people going, of which 20 are non-US. Lets assume an average of $800.00 cost.

Then, if the gathering is in North America, those of us here would subsidize some of the cost of those who would come here from Europe, and to a lesser extent vice versa as there are fewer people in the non North America Group sharing the subsidy.

For example, if the AMG is held in Vancouver, I would be willing to put $200 into a pool that would assist those coming from Europe to here. as there is no cost for me. If its held on the US West Coast, then the members in that area and close to it would do the same.

As for holding the event in the US, the last thing we want is for this kind of gathering to be a stress filled and potentially have devastating consequences for an attendee.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: manchesteruk on November 02, 2007, 03:57:12 am

Hi Mela
I may be missing something here but can you explain to me why it is different/easier to visit friends in the US than it is visiting with a group..and why are the questions so different..I'm finding it hard to see the difference.

Also
Given the first statement does this mean you won't be visiting friends in the US anymore..I'm just curious.

Jan

Hey Jan,

I think I can answer this one on behalf of Debra with my own experience.  Because I was traveling alone I was grilled by the Immigration Officer he asked why I was visiting on my own, who I was going to see, how I knew these people in the US, where I was staying and what I was doing while there.  Now essentially as I was having to lie about all this and I'm absolutely rubbish at it I think it was pretty obvious and he picked up on it!  He was trying to catch me out by asking oh what was your friends name again?, what was the name of the hotel I forgot? it was a pretty nasty experience to be honest.  My hands were shaking and my heart was racing for about an hour afterwards.

Sure next year I could write down someones name and address remember a script to all the questions they ask and I'd probably do that if necessary, but is it fair to expect me to do so?

Chris
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Cliff on November 02, 2007, 04:34:08 am
Chris,

It's to be expected that a border control agent will ask such questions.  I don't think he was doing so because he could tell that you were HIV positive.  He's just doing his job at trying to catch people who want to stay in the US unlawfully.  Those types of questions can be asked by passport control agents in any country. 

I get hassled by UK passport control everytime I return (and I have a valid residency).  They want to know where I am living, who I am working for, am I still working, why I'm in the country, etc.  I don't take it personal.  I've had American friends come visit me and complain about the UK passport agents.  But they are just doing their job.  I get hassled by EU countries whenever I go visit.  Well hassled is a strong word.  All they ever want to know is where I am staying and when am I leaving.  Actually my experience in Canada, (Montreal AMG), was probably the worst.  The guy was asking where I was staying, why I was coming to the country, why was I living in the UK, who was I coming to visit, why were we all meeting in Montreal.  And he asked a couple of them twice....I forgot the hotel's name and started fumbling for my papers.  I guess I could have said, it's a meeting of AIDS folks....but that doesn't seem like the easiest way to get through immigration (any immigration), plus it's none of their business anyway.  But again, he was just doing his job so I didn't take it personal.  But I agree, when it happens to you, it can be unnerving.

I guess what I am trying to say, is being hassled by passport control is not just an American-only event.  It can and will happen to members no matter which location we choose.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Alain on November 02, 2007, 04:38:39 am
I'm very puzzled by much of this discussion.  After spending just short of a week in San Fransisco with friends from across both ponds, I don't recall the subject of anyone feeling uncomfortable going through US Customs ever coming to the surface.  Damn, Hermie does it all the time.  Dame Jan has done it three years in a row.  Now we are worried about being branded with the "Big F", a felon?

And cowardalehouse, you insult the members by referring to AMG as "American Megamember Gathering."  Just what do you think this sort of comment has added to this already heated discussion?  Please don't start a flamewar.  This does not help the atmosphere one little bit.

With respect to all, Ric

Ric what is it with you these days? First you complain about this site having changed and can hardly explain why and now you accuse me of a flamewar.
 
I am not starting a flamewar but I have to live with my reality on a daily basis. I can't go to your country because of the HIV ban.

My words are just the expression of my feelings about the AMG. I know the rules and I will go by them, but again I can help feeling that there is very little desire for most American members to go abroad for what ever reasons they may have.

And valid ones; the airfare, hotel and lets face it, it would be a greater challenge to help as much members as possible with the financial issues.

You mark my word if the is an AMG outside the USA I can't help feeling that our American family members participation will be at a low level and we are going to organize it ourself.

So please stay cool and back off Ric. We are only discussing things here.   
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: manchesteruk on November 02, 2007, 04:45:29 am
Hey Cliff,

I didn't think he suspected I was HIV+ that would be some extreme paranoia wouldn't it, unless I had a biohazard tattoo on my forehead!  I'm quite sure the immigration process isn't a breeze in those other countries.  The difference is in those other countries I wouldn't have to lie about why I was there and I wouldn't be committing a felony and I wouldn't be sent home if found out!  Just as an example.  Say if someone caught me out on one of the standard questions and said look I know you aren't telling the truth, tell me why you are really here.  Could you imagine being in a situation like that?

Chris
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: vokz on November 02, 2007, 04:54:57 am
I guess what I am trying to say, is being hassled by passport control is not just an American-only event.  It can and will happen to members no matter which location we choose.

It isn’t the fact that you are getting hassled that is the problem. It is the fact that you are getting hassled by people who are trained to study your body language to see if you are being evasive / getting stressed  .. and are increasingly also aided by electronic voice stress analysers to detect the clues in your voice. The more evasive you are, the more stress they detect, the more probing the answers get.

No bugger is saying that being hassled by various national versions of the little DHS fascists is an American-only event (although the event is uniquely and predictably long when entering the US) .. they are saying that it is only in America where you have to lie because of your HIV status.

It isn’t going to happen to members no matter which location we choose, because not all locations have the ban on HIV-positive visitors.

True, they are more concerned about other things than they are about HIV; but electronic gadgetry just says that you are stressed .. not that you are stressed because you are trying to hide the fact that you are HIV-positive.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Cliff on November 02, 2007, 05:23:38 am
Hey Chris & Vokz,

Yes, I agree.  I can not say how I would feel going to US whilst there is a ban.  But what I can say is that I have been in similar situations.  I've had to lie on my work permit application for South Africa.  Luckily they don't test for HIV (unless you're in certain occupations), but they do ask if you have communicable diseases.  Also luckily, I had a doctor at the time who was willing to be flexible with the definition.  But yes, I was a bit nervous going through passport control the first time.  I've also had to visit 2 countries for work that have a ban on people living with HIV (Russia, China). 

It's a difficult decision and I can't say that I felt great about lying or that it didn't cross my mind.  But, it's just not a big enough issue for me to make hard and fast rules about.  If given the opportunity again, I would jump at the opportunity to work in South Africa again or visit Russia/China, even though it meant I would have lie.  I guess the benefit of those trips/opportunities outweighs the political issue.  But I recognise that not everyone has that view.  But by the same token, I shouldn't be vilified or accused of wanting people to commit fraud/felonies, for having that view.

But I will say this, I would hope at least people would be consistent about it (which leads back to Jan's question...which is one that other people have voiced privately).  If you won't set foot in the US because of the ban, then be consistent about it.  I think part of this is America bashing (even if well-deserved).  When I first moved to the UK and would visit HIV meetings/organisations...everyone would immediately bitch at me for the ban, something I obviously have no control over, but the same folks who were dead set against the US would turn around and brag about all the cheap crap they got whilst taking advantage of the weak dollar visiting New York City on a weekend shopping trip.

For me, banning AMG from the US only hurts Americans with HIV who live on limited means.  Personally, I'm not prepared to do that.  The event was held outside the US for the first two years because of the ban, but no one seems to want to recognise that.  And that is what has pissed me off about all this bickering (that and the fact that some people, who have no real interest in AMG, are antagonising the issue).  People are claiming that the US members don't care about those living outside the US....but they do.  If people want a city outside the US, then vote for one and convince people why that city would be a good location.  Attacking members for voting for their own self-interest only puts everyone on the defensive.  This whole situation should have been handled differently...it's unnecessarily created a lot of bad blood between members.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: gerry on November 02, 2007, 05:40:47 am
I would like to request that the Grants Committee present projected finances for US/Canada/Europe locations, how much money would be expected to be raised for these 3 scenarios, and how this translates into how many people can attend.

Keep in mind it's NOT just the po' folks at issue, the location will greatly impact how much money is raised.  I don't wish to offend our non-US board members, but I've gotten the feeling that most of the grant money raised is by US members, probably because they make up a greater percentage on the board (and also because the Euros are spending more to travel to North America of course, but we're also talking about less in numbers).

Basically I want to know, and I think it's important for the discussion, that for every location outside of the US, how does that impact fundraising and how does that translate into how many less can attend?

Let's be quite clear, EACH location decision will impact someone, albeit for different reasons.  There's a lot of overly emotional points being made here and in the other thread, with little to no actual understanding of the financial considerations -- and yes, that IS a reality.  I'm all for appropriate political considerations, but I'm also a very pragmatic person.  I just think it should be clear what we're talking about and in the absence of this information I find it hard to arrive at any consensus.

Unfortunately, projections would be very difficult, if not impossible, to do because of so many variables to consider.

If you'd like to look at the Grants Committee financial activity for the Montreal gathering in 2006, it is in this thread (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=667.0).  The total cash raised was $2818.  However, there were donors who paid for a total of 11 nights hotel accommodations directly to recipients.  There were also plane tickets directly awarded to some recipients paid for in cash or airline miles, as well as room sharing.

If you'd like to look at the GC financial activity for the San Francisco gathering this year, it is in this thread (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=9536.msg201971#msg201971).  The total cash raised was $5334; there were no direct donations from members to recipients other than room-sharing.

The GC is not supposed to reveal the source of the donations or the identities of the recipient.  However, there was a recent survey done and the results were posted in this thread (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=16048.msg206900#msg206900).  This included items about plans to donate for 2008.  Anyone could use that thread to discuss issues and suggestions about future AMG GC fund-raising and distribution.

EDIT: The GC works with whatever amount it is able to collect.  Since several of the people planning to donate are themselves planning to attend, the collections might be affected by the potential donors' own travel costs.  To what extent this could be is very difficult to project since only a handful of responses were obtained and the location was not factored into the survey.  A follow-up survey can always be performed to get a sense of this.

Gerry
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: gerry on November 02, 2007, 06:10:38 am
Gerry,  Thank you for letting me know that as I was previously unaware...yet this knowledge greatly surprises me based off of David's my understanding the greater issue.

Surely those who understand that the AMG works to collect donations for the board to partipate must also understand that to suggest that Europeans plan their own event would then be either asking board members who wish to donate funds to then choose between two groups?  Or is there a suggestion that only he US AMG be open for donations.


I don't think David was suggesting what you are implying, that donors choose to donate for a European gathering vs a US gathering.  However, he is privy to some confidential information that you are not, such as who donated to the GC, which members asked the GC for assistance, and how the donations were eventually distributed.

As to your last sentence, the first two gatherings were done in Toronto and Montreal (mainly because of this HIV ban issue), and the GC operated then as well.

I believe that David was echoing a previous suggestion in another thread to hold 2 AMGs.  Personally, I think that would put a huge strain on the GC's capacity if only one GC was operational for two AMG events done on the same year in two very different locations.

Having said that, if Amsterdam becomes the location of choice based on the current votes, I would not be surprised to see someone initiating a mini-gathering organized in the US at a different time, which is not necessarily a bad idea, and definitely should not be looked at as an evil plan.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: vokz on November 02, 2007, 06:12:08 am
But I will say this, I would hope at least people would be consistent about it (which leads back to Jan's question...which is one that other people have voiced privately).  If you won't set foot in the US because of the ban, then be consistent about it. 

I am sorry, but that whole argument is just so flawed (although I do personally agree to an extent and always refuse to set foot in the US for any purpose  – period – despite having a multiple entry class O visa that exempts me from the restrictions .. on account of the fact that money and the ability to generate wealth always overrides “public danger”).

Anyway, Back to Jan’s question then ..

Because Mela isn’t being evasive to verbal questioning when she visits friends and family, it is a whole different scenario to trying to hide the fact that she is going to meet up with a gang of people she met on a discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS".

Even an innocent little question like “How do you know the people you are meeting?” is a potential minefield that simply doesn’t exist when you are visiting friends, going on holiday, shopping to jubilantly exploit the fact that the US$ is in freefall or on business and can give honest non-evasive answers to verbal questioning.

The giveaway isn’t that you are generally stressed (because that level of stress will show up in all your answers). It is that you are MORE stressed by certain types of questions (in this case, any questions relating to how you know the people you are meeting).

Personally, I have to say that I suspect that anyone who cannot see that somewhat crucial difference simply does not want to see it.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: sweetasmeli on November 02, 2007, 06:51:32 am

Hi Mela
I may be missing something here but can you explain to me why it is different/easier to visit friends in the US than it is visiting with a group..and why are the questions so different..I'm finding it hard to see the difference.

Also
Given the first statement does this mean you won't be visiting friends in the US anymore..I'm just curious.

I haven't put a destination/vote forward yet because to be honest I've lost track of the original post..this has gone so off topic I don't know where it is anymore..so I'm withholding my vote until it gets back on track.

Or maybe I will just join Matty in Sydney or Vladivostok... ;)
Hugs
Jan

Jan
I didn't say the line of questioning was different when I visited for AMG; I said it was harder to sidestep. As Chris pointed out, it was the line of questioning that was more difficult to sidestep when visiting for AMG. When I visited Jonathan in August I was asked questions such as:
 
Who was I visiting?
How did I know them? (this question had my heart pounding the first time I visited!)
Had I met them before? (as did this one!)
What did they do for a living?

When I came for AMG I was asked similar questions as above plus:

Why was I visiting the US again after such a short time since my last visit?
Where was I staying?

My thoughts on this matter are purely linked to AMG and the destinations being considered; after having been through the immigration checks a few times now, I can say that there was a difference in how I felt under questioning between when I visited a friend and when I visited for AMG.

I thought the difference would be obvious between personal visits to friends and an AMG gathering; a personal visit with friends is a private event whereas AMG is a publicised (internet) event of HIV+ people meeting up. So, to answer your question, yes I will still be making private visits to friends in the US (although I'm still loathed to be forced to lie on the immigration form) but I won't be attending another AMG there.

My vote for "any place that doesn't have entry restrictions for HIV+ folk" is specifically for AMG, because it is a publicised event for HIV+ people. I really don't understand why people don't seem to get the hypocrisy and the level of risk involved for non-US citizens.

As for the thread going off topic, I don't think it has. Despite it maybe not going as swimmingly as some may have hoped for, I actually think that the discussion is very much on topic. The topic is about destination votes; it’s just that some people have strong thoughts about which destinations should be under consideration.

Debra

PS: Vladivostok with Matty does sounds fun though...wherever that may be! ;) ::)
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: sweetasmeli on November 02, 2007, 07:09:14 am
I'm very puzzled by much of this discussion.  After spending just short of a week in San Fransisco with friends from across both ponds, I don't recall the subject of anyone feeling uncomfortable going through US Customs ever coming to the surface.  Damn, Hermie does it all the time.  Dame Jan has done it three years in a row.  Now we are worried about being branded with the "Big F", a felon?

Actually Ric, this topic of conversation did come up on several separate occasions during AMG; me, Niki and Chris were asked about it by several other members and Niki also brought the matter up with others.

Just because Hermie and Jan have been lucky so far, doesn't mean their luck will continue. But to be honest, that isn't (and shouldn't be) the point.

Yes, I for one am worried about "being branded with the "Big F", a felon." Believe it or not, the way things stand with the US laws, it is actually a real risk for non-US citizens every time they enter the US, and more so when they enter for a publicised event for HIV+ folk.

And if you don't believe me, ask Alain (Cowandalehouse).

Why do I get the feeling that some folk here think that non-US folk are just being awkward?

Plus are there only a handful of members here who are actually bothered by the fact that many seem ok holding an event for HIV+ folk in a country that doesn't accept entry of folk with HIV??

Debra
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: sweetasmeli on November 02, 2007, 07:54:17 am
But I will say this, I would hope at least people would be consistent about it (which leads back to Jan's question...which is one that other people have voiced privately).  If you won't set foot in the US because of the ban, then be consistent about it.

Cliff; it’s not so much an all out ban on the US because of the restrictions (although I was tempted until I wanted to meet JK too badly!) but more an awareness and (I would have thought) understandable concern of the greater risk involved when attending an event specifically and publicly organized by and for HIV+ people.

I’m not against going to the US because of the laws (as inane and bigoted as they are); but I am against attending another publicized event for HIV+ people. Is it just me or do folks seem to be ignoring the fact that anything published on the internet is for public viewing? Hence, AMG is a publicized event.

I think part of this is America bashing (even if well-deserved).

I can’t speak for anyone else here, but that’s certainly not the case for me.

The event was held outside the US for the first two years because of the ban, but no one seems to want to recognise that.

On reflection now, I do recognise that; but the 3rd AMG was held in the US, despite no change in the law.

The reason this is now  becoming an issue is because the forums have become more diverse and there are more non-US citizens wishing to attend AMG. And this year - for me, Niki and Chris anyway - was our first experience. And the immigration experience sucked big time and frankly, we shouldn't have to go through that.

Debra 
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Jerry71 on November 02, 2007, 08:04:47 am
When I went to Montreal I was screened by a border patrol at customs. They asked me questions about who I was visiting? Why I was coming to Montreal? What was my purpose of my visit while I was there? To my questions being asked I replied was meeting a group for a gathering conference told them what hotel I was staying at and all in all it took more than 5 minutes to get through customs. The whole ordeal of going through customs is a bitch but they are there just doing there job. But also at the time I still did not have a passport to get into Canada due to the fact they did not ask for one then but now the laws have changed.

I hope you guys in the UK will not blame us for living in the US and having to live in a part that the goverment is so strict on border entrys. It is not our fought it is the damn politicians we get in office here.

I also wanted to let you know I had a great time meeting all of you in San Francisco and please come back and visit us anytime if you want you can even use my name to enter the states. I really love my new UK family that I have got to know in the last AMG.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 02, 2007, 09:54:24 am
im glad debra has managed to respond in this thread before i did. my response was no way near as polite.

i think i'll just leave it at that for the time being and hope that people understand how upsetting this is for me and for the others. at this point just want to give up entirely. im asking myself what is the point of me being a member of these forums when it would make it a damn lot easier for everyone if i would just fuck off and stop inconveniencing you.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: thunter34 on November 02, 2007, 10:24:30 am
Can everybody please just step back from the keys for a moment and breathe? 

AMG 2007 was barely a month ago.  I understand the passionate feelings about all this.  I do.  As I said, I wasn't aware the restrictions were still in place when San Francisco was chosen.  And funny thing...I asked about Alain when I got there, if he was coming.  I had no idea about that either.  I just think all the "damns" and "fuck offs" aren't doing anything but putting everybody on edge.

Seriously.  I fell absolutely in love with the AMG barely more than a month ago.  Best trip of my life, really.  I hardly even want to think about going to it - anywhere - with all this tension and cursing.

Settle down, ya'll.  We're still just in the preliminary suggestion stage.  This thread hasn't even been allowed to simply run its course and get feedback.  I have full faith that all of it- people's votes, peoples concerns - the whole kit and kaboodle would get presented and a reasonable decision would be arrived at.  Instead, it's this giant THING where everything...even just simple suggestions and ideas...are expected to grind to halt.  And that IS all this thread was originally intended to be...just initial suggestions.

*whew* 

I need a cigarette.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: gerry on November 02, 2007, 11:09:34 am
im glad debra has managed to respond in this thread before i did. my response was no way near as polite.

i think i'll just leave it at that for the time being and hope that people understand how upsetting this is for me and for the others. at this point just want to give up entirely. im asking myself what is the point of me being a member of these forums when it would make it a damn lot easier for everyone if i would just fuck off and stop inconveniencing you.

Why would you want to give up at this point entirely when it looks to me like your points have actually come across loud and clear? Amsterdam seems to be the top choice in this thread at the moment, so I'm confused about the wanting to give up ???

The people in the US who would be unable to go are free to hold a mini-gathering, and the AMG + the next GC resources can be devoted to the main gathering in Amsterdam if that turns out to be the city that gets chosen.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Tim Horn on November 02, 2007, 11:18:58 am
Hi Gang...

I'm going to echo Tim's suggestion that everyone take some deep breaths before moving forward with this discussion -- it's teetering on becoming overheated and personal and I don't think anyone wants see this thread put on ice by a moderator.

It's obvious that people are coming at this from deep-seeded -- and highly variable -- personal idealogies and viewpoints. Personally, I totally support the International AIDS Society in its decision to hold the biennial International AIDS Conference in countries without HIV entry criteria, especially with the conference striving to bring so many community leaders from around the world -- many of whom are HIV-positive -- together. Until the United States overturns its archaic and discriminatory (HIV) immigration practices, we'll never see an IAC in this country.

Only you guys can determine, either by VOTING or CONSENSUS, as to whether this mandate should also apply to the AMG gathering. As has been said by others above, there are a number of issues at stake here -- the fact that most Forums members are U.S. citizens; the HIV entry ban that serves up both moral and practical challenges; the weakness of the U.S. dollar against, well, almost every other currency in the world; and, of course, the different expectations each member has for these gatherings.

No matter how this group decides to move forward, some members will find themselves unable to attend. But the fact of the matter is, there's really no "right" or "wrong" decision here. For example, some may feel that immigration restrictions trump economic concerns, whereas those who are operating on limited/fixed incomes may see that as the most important factor.

I suggest that the AMG organizers put this to a vote. This simply won't be decided by the person who is the angriest, most eloquent, or gets in the last word. Like I said, not everyone will be happy with the decision -- but at least there will be satisfaction, among AIDSmeds members of AMG hopefuls, that a decision was made democratically.

Tim Horn
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Robert on November 02, 2007, 12:03:42 pm
Here's an idea.

The AMG should be like the International AIDS Society in its decision to hold a biennial International AIDS Conference.  We can dovetail on to the conference and have our meetings every 2 years in the same location as the IAS, only hold it on the weekend after the conference.  That way we can meet people like Tim or Peter et al at our gathering and perhaps we can have a workshop or something with them.   

That gives each of us 2 years to start saving money for our international gathering.  Also we can start collecting donations over a longer period and maybe have more money for the grant committee.  Of course there could be regional meetings in the off year for anyone who wished to get together.

Like I said earlier, when we met in Canada we had quite a few "locals" attending.    I imagine it would be the same wherever we meet.  If we meet in Europe, more Europeans from across the Continent would attend.  If we should ever meet down under, then we would see a few more Aussies tossed into the bunch.   It sounds like the only fair way to open the gatherings to all our members; give them the opportunity to be our hosts.

Every 2 years might seem like a long time between visits, but imagine the excitement that would build up as the gathering becomes to fruition. 

robert
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: thunter34 on November 02, 2007, 12:23:54 pm
Thanks, Robert.  Reaffirms my belief that if everybody just chills and lets suggestions flow freely, all kinds of great ideas may come of this discussion.  Some might eventually be tied directly to AMG, others may end up branching out into who knows what.  That's why I so insistently think coolness needs to prevaill right now.  Any suggestion should be tabled...from capri to cucamunga.  (I just wanted an excuse to say cucamunga.)  Then this becomes like true brainstorming - letting anything fly.  Give things time to soak a bit.

And I also think all this excessive arguing is kind of doing a disservice (and kinda disrespectful) of folks on the committee.  Like Dennis, primarily.  I'm still in awe of the work that boy achieved for this last AMG.  I mean WOW.  So let's give these committee folks some credit and time to let them do what they do, and show a little faith here...in them and each other.

And someone balked at Texas and Tennessee in one of these threads.  Ya know....there's really no need to go off and trash suggestions like that.  (You're trashing the homes of some of our members when you do that, remember.)  And personally, I know that Tennessee is gorgeous.  And I'd love to see Texas.  Who am I kidding?  There ain't many places I wouldn't like to be able to see.

I almost certainly couldn't afford it, but I'd love a trip to Amsterdam.  (Boy, the trouble I could get into there..)
And there's about half a dozen hotties on here that I'd love to see all up close and personal in the London area.  So, ya know...I'm all about the Union Jack.   ;)

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: vokz on November 02, 2007, 12:40:04 pm
Ozark Mountain country of northwest Arkansas (just not one of the 'dry' counties) … anyone?

OH, OK then   :'(

PS: Maybe I am the only one thinking this, but is it beyond the realms of possibility that arrangements for lifting of the ban will finally be announced on 1st December? The original commitment was timed to coincide with 1st December.  :-\
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on November 02, 2007, 02:20:11 pm
I'm going to request we get back on track here.  Everyone has made some very fine points.  However, in order for planning to go as smoothly as possible I need to request everyone stick to the topic of the thread and vote for 2 destinations.  Any 2 and only 2 destinations.

Once I'm settled in California I will attempt to tally all votes and will pick the top 2 which can then be discussed.  We will then vote amongst those two destinations.

Please keep the debates confined to another thread.

Thanks
Dennis

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: BobF on November 02, 2007, 02:23:54 pm
1)   Toronto
2)    Key West
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: anniebc on November 02, 2007, 04:05:29 pm
Quote
im glad debra has managed to respond in this thread before i did. my response was no way near as polite.

So am I Niki..being rude and disrespectful would not have help move this thread forward.

I hope you have calmed down enough to read what the following posters had to say..Thunter, Tim, Robert and Gerry ..especially Gerry's post...thanks for your calming input guys, now can we get this back on track.

Hugs
Jan


Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Thom Martin on November 02, 2007, 07:23:58 pm
Thanks to the Coordinator, Thunter, Tim, Robert, Gerry and Dame Jan for attempting to get this thread back under control.  Maybe Ric will settle down a bit.  I can't promise anything, after all he is an old, crabby fart of German/Hungarian decent and is very bull headed.

Hugs all, Thom
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: naftalim on November 02, 2007, 08:00:10 pm
1) Vancouver
2) Amsterdam
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: ademas on November 02, 2007, 08:42:48 pm
1)  Mexico City (I've been many times, but it's one of my favorite places, and I have friends there)
2)  Madrid (Spain or Portugal are about the only 2 places in Europe that I might be able to afford)

I just returned from a week in Rio de Janeiro on Wednesday.  It's a beautiful place, and I had a wonderful time, but the travel was excruciating (26 hours there--Seattle->DC->Sao Paulo->Rio, and 24 hours home).  I know I can't do something like that again--possibly ever.  I have to hand it to those of you who travelled so far to get to the past few AMG's.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Winiroo on November 02, 2007, 08:49:45 pm
1. Dallas
2. Houston
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: allanq on November 03, 2007, 03:07:46 pm
1. Mexico City
2. Vancouver



I like Mexico City for the following reasons:

1. Mexico City is an exciting and cosmopolitan city, with lots to see and do. The city has a very good public transportation system. For many Americans, their only experience with Mexico is with border towns like Tijuana. Those border towns are not at all representative of the "real" Mexico.

2. Accommodations and food in Mexico City are generally less expensive than in Europe, Canada, or the U.S.

3. For Sept. 10-15, I found the following airfares:

   Chicago   $319 (connection in Dallas)
   Dallas      $303 (non-stop)
   SFO         $510 (non-stop)
   London   $1062 (connection in Toronto); $1433 non-stop.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Cliff on November 03, 2007, 03:29:13 pm
Sorry, I know this shouldn't be put in the voting thread...but just wanted to say that I could probably get cheaper direct flights to Mexico city from london....prices aren't set yet and hopefully they won't be increased due to the international AIDS conference but I can get tickets for £458 or $953.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on November 03, 2007, 03:44:52 pm
Non-stops from NYC to Mexico City are $440

I've always wanted to go there.  Must party in the Zona Rosa!
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: allanq on November 03, 2007, 03:51:44 pm
philly,

Does this mean that you're changing your previous vote from Florianopolos & Bodrum to Mexico City?

Allan
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: anniebc on November 03, 2007, 03:55:05 pm
1..AYES ROCK AUSTRALIA

Accommodation...none, bring yer own swags
Bars...none, but you can bring your duty free
HIV restrictions..none, (that I know of)
Attractions..from the top you can see miles of absolutely nothing..and you can yell at each other all you want because there will be no other buggers there to hear you.

2..STEWART ISLAND NEW ZEALAND

Accommodation..Tent city, I hear it's very picturesque when it's not underwater.
Bars..One, the last I heard it was still open..but bring you duty free just in case.
Attrations...gravel roads and bush, no transport as such but you can hire a little moped if you don't like walking.
How to get here...Three choices..The Ferry but only when weather permits or if you don't mind chancing the 10 meter swells..apparently the ferry man will do anything for a good back hander.
Plane..The plane will seat about 4/6 so a few runs will have to be organized..your luggage will have to go by Ferry, but only if you make it woth while for the ferry man.
Chopper..Seats two, that includes the pilot..so even more runs will have to be organised..it's an old chopper but I have it on good authority that the pilot is well stocked up on duct tape.
HIV restrictions..None

My final vote goes goes to:
Amsterdam..For one reason, and one reason only, I would like to see Ann get the chance to attend an AMG..and because I like her.. ;).
My only regret is I will not get to meet her.

Now if you will excuse me I have to go and see my surgeon to have the Alphabet and bits of black plastic that is imbebed on my forehead removed.

Hugs
Jan
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on November 03, 2007, 03:55:53 pm
Well, ideally I'd prefer those other locations, but on a practical level Mexico City is more suitable so yes I'll change my vote.

Thanks Allan :)
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: englishgirl on November 03, 2007, 04:08:08 pm
Well, ideally I'd prefer those other locations, but on a practical level Mexico City is more suitable so yes I'll change my vote.
que buena onda ;D
vamonos buscar juntos los chicos guapos
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: thunter34 on November 03, 2007, 04:12:42 pm
que buena onda ;D
vamonos buscar juntos los chicos guapos

necesito dirreciónes a la casa de baños mas cerca, por favor.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Miss Philicia on November 03, 2007, 04:14:36 pm
If we selected Santo Domingo I could really show everyone a GREAT time! :)
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: tinydaniell on November 04, 2007, 01:41:16 am
Atlanta GA        or         Tampa FL
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: sweetasmeli on November 04, 2007, 04:03:07 am
Here's an idea.

The AMG should be like the International AIDS Society in its decision to hold a biennial International AIDS Conference.  We can dovetail on to the conference and have our meetings every 2 years in the same location as the IAS, only hold it on the weekend after the conference.  That way we can meet people like Tim or Peter et al at our gathering and perhaps we can have a workshop or something with them.   

That gives each of us 2 years to start saving money for our international gathering.  Also we can start collecting donations over a longer period and maybe have more money for the grant committee.  Of course there could be regional meetings in the off year for anyone who wished to get together.

Like I said earlier, when we met in Canada we had quite a few "locals" attending.    I imagine it would be the same wherever we meet.  If we meet in Europe, more Europeans from across the Continent would attend.  If we should ever meet down under, then we would see a few more Aussies tossed into the bunch.   It sounds like the only fair way to open the gatherings to all our members; give them the opportunity to be our hosts.

Every 2 years might seem like a long time between visits, but imagine the excitement that would build up as the gathering becomes to fruition. 

robert

Me likey this idea very muchas. So, although I stand by my original suggestion of "any place that does not have entry restrictions for HIV+ folk", I will narrow down my vote to:

1. Mexico City (cos of the IAC)
2. Amsterdam (so Ann doesn't smack me ;D)

Debra
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: JohnOso on November 04, 2007, 02:18:00 pm
1. Mexico City (AIDS conference)
2. Amsterdam
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: BikerGuy on November 04, 2007, 10:13:59 pm
Canada - Vancouver
Canada - Toronto, my charge card has been there and it had a good time.

US - Chicago
US - Boston

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Grasshopper on November 05, 2007, 10:07:37 am
The annual IBC conferences in Amsterdam are held during the first half of september.
Affordable and decent accomodations may be hard to find.

Check those dates out here:

www.booking.com

http://www.booking.com/index.en.html?sid=3998ade3846c3c97ce9f87ba458aa48e

Choose option: Amsterdam  (Nieuw Amsterdam is nowhere near Amsterdam city !)

Goodluck
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: allanq on November 05, 2007, 01:35:41 pm
I can't figure out exactly what IBC stands for, but evidently it's a big international conference about "creation, management and delivery of content for the entertainment industry."

It's being held in Amsterdam, September 11-16, 2008.

Allan

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: frenchpat on November 05, 2007, 01:53:02 pm
International Broadcasting Conference I believe, 2nd biggest show for tv and related industry equipment manufacturers after NAB which is held in Las Vegas.

IBC is held at the RAI, Amsterdam's exhibition centre and is huge. Don't hope for a hotel room during those days.

Pat
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: pozattitude on November 06, 2007, 01:26:52 pm
necesito dirreciónes a la casa de baños mas cerca, por favor.

Eres un cochinito mijo....por esso te quiero tanto....lol


Rich
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: northernguy on November 09, 2007, 12:34:37 am
1. London
2. Barcelona
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: FiercenBed on November 15, 2007, 05:43:46 pm
jeeeshhh....like hiv this seems very complicated!

1>   INTERNATONAL:   Amsterdam
       my favorite place in the world! no language issue. i havnt seen anyone mention that bitch called the euro though. god knowz what a barrel of oil is gonna cost in a year for an airplane ticket.

2>   DOMESTIC:   D.C.
       Very poz/gay friendly. lotza hotels great resturants. easy to get to. economical.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Robert on November 15, 2007, 10:54:19 pm
Hey amguy...

I'd like to change my choice from Amsterdam to Mexico City.  My second choice is still Amsterdam.

robert
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Dan J. on November 16, 2007, 12:49:37 am
It's not the destination that is so important to me but the journey. I would like to change my choices to Anywhere. I will find a way to get there.  Nothing is going to keep me away from AMG. It's what I look foreward to every year. The chance give hugs & kisses and look into the faces of the people that share their strength, hope & know what we have gone through with this damn virus.

Wherever AMG 08 will be I can't wait to get there.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Lakis on November 17, 2007, 07:48:23 am
1.anywhere outside USA
2.anywhere outside USA
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Lakis on November 17, 2007, 07:58:35 am
I voted already outside USA....

In Europe the best place would be:
1.Amsterdam
2.Heidelberg/germany
3.Athens/Greece

Australia/New zealand:
1.Perth
2.Auckland
3.Melbourne

Canada:
1.Calgary
2.Toronto
3.Edmonton
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Lakis on November 17, 2007, 08:41:43 am
all i am asking is that we exclude countries which bar pozzies from entry and then vote on a location.
I agree with this opinion.We are dealing withdiscrimination every day...How can we with a clear conscience support ANY country with discriminative HIV lows???
Lakis
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Dennis on November 17, 2007, 11:41:26 am
1. Mexico City
2. San Antonio
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on November 17, 2007, 11:44:01 am
Voting will continue for one more day.  Those of you who have cast a vote for "anywhere" please choose a specific destination.  A vote for "anywhere" will not count. 

Once I tally all the votes the top 2 destination will go up for discussion with a final decision hopefully being made by the end of the year.

Thanks
Dennis
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: gerry on November 17, 2007, 11:56:56 am
Hello, just one question:  how will the votes of those who chose over 2 destinations be counted, or those who categorized their votes and still exceeded 2 destinations?
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on November 17, 2007, 12:08:03 pm
Gerry,

This has been a difficult vote and a lot of members did vote for more than the requested 2 destinations.  At this point I'm thinking of giving each destination mentioned a vote (just to make it easy on me).  I think either way we count there are 1 or 2 destinations that clearly outnumber the others.  Those 2 destinations can then be discussed further and voted upon to come to a conclusion.  Those members who reposted a change to their vote will be taken into consideration and will not be counted twice.

Dennis
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: mjmel on November 17, 2007, 06:54:09 pm
I'm back in.
1. mexico city
2. toronto
xxx,
Mike

(thanx, David NC)
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Basquo on November 17, 2007, 08:47:58 pm
1) Chicago

2) Mexico (anywhere)
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: BirdBear718 on November 17, 2007, 10:05:17 pm
So do not call me glib with my question:  is Canada easy and accepting of HIV+ visitors?  If so, I vote Canada.  Although, I do not know much about the cities of Canada and the tourism benefits.  I will have to leave that up to the AMG committee (so I hope my vote counts and does not become discounted).

1.  Canada -- I do not know a location to choose
2.  Canada

Also, I would like some info on participating the fund-raising/grant committee.
I've never written a grant.  I do not know what you do to raise funds, but let me know some of the activities or brainstorming sessions and I will participate.

Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Ric Wilke on November 17, 2007, 10:49:49 pm
AMG Coordinator,

Thom and I have been discussing the location for the past few weeks.  We wish to amend our two separate votes for the following TWO locations.

Ric:
1) Mexico City Mexico
2) Chicago, IL  USA

Thom:
1) Mexico City Mexico
2) Chicago, IL  USA

Sorry about the late change and thank you for the opportunity for us to reconsider.

Warmest regards, Ric & Thom

PS - Hope you are getting settled in on the west coast and that all is well with you both.

Edited to correct spelling
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: anniebc on November 17, 2007, 11:20:51 pm
1...Mexico City

2...Amsterdam

Hugs
Jan :-*
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Dan J. on November 18, 2007, 12:00:46 am
Since Anywhere won't count ...

1. Amsterdam
2. Mexico City
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: dixieman on November 19, 2007, 11:23:05 am
Canada would be nice... I vote for anywhere people speak ENGLISH! I've traveled to too many places overseas... to listen to jiber jaber... its just a preference...
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AMG Coordinator on November 19, 2007, 12:00:01 pm
Thank you to everyone for your suggestions.  This stage of the vote has ended.  Please visit..

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=17222.0 (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=17222.0)

to cast your final vote for next years AMG destination.
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: frenchpat on November 19, 2007, 01:43:52 pm
... to listen to jiber jaber...

sorry, is this slang for "foreign language"?

Just asking because ENGLISH is not my mother language and I like to keep my argot (slang) up-to-date.

 ;D

Pat

edited for typo
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: heartforyou on November 19, 2007, 07:32:00 pm
I am voting for Amsterdam.

Because Mexico is  not my cup of tea.

However, resepctig the fact that Amsterdam may be too expensive for many US citizens, I will joins Mexico instead.
Make it the week before the big conference then.

Hermie
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: AlanBama on November 27, 2007, 08:15:46 pm
1...Mexico City

2...Amsterdam


Alan
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: allopathicholistic on December 02, 2007, 06:45:51 pm
sorry, is this slang for "foreign language"?


no. it just means aimless chatter. another way to say jibber jabber is yakkityyak or chew the fat or shoot the breeze. there are other ways too

this concludes today's american argot lesson  :D

someone correct me if anything's wrong
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Lakis on December 04, 2007, 07:13:02 am
1.Amsterdam
2.Anywhere outside USA
Title: Re: AMG 2008 DESTINATION VOTE
Post by: Xavier on January 07, 2008, 12:01:27 am
Screw Mexico City, lets go to cancun and do tequila shots and beer bongs on the beach.  I'm going to go this year I swear, Someone better like tequila, maybe we could go hit up the pharmacy too.  Mexico City just sounds scary....