Author Topic: Do I tell everyone I'm sexually active with, I'm Poz??? (Read 33962 times)

poz_hiv_bruh · « **on:** October 07, 2009, 08:59:56 am »

So I've been upfront when meeting someone new that I'm HIV+ and up until recently, I haven't had any issues. Well recently I told this guy I was and he told SEVERAL people about my status and it's starting to spread like wild fire! So many people don't disclose thier status which I always thought was wrong, but now I'm start to actually understand why they don't.

How can people expect you to be upfront if they are going to be so malicious about your status?

BlueMoon · « **Reply #1 on:** October 07, 2009, 12:23:27 pm »

What you did was right. What the other guy did was wrong.

melloyellow · « **Reply #2 on:** October 07, 2009, 02:10:25 pm »

I feel the same way as you. I wouldn't feel right having sex with someone if I don't tell them that
I am HIV+. They will have decide if they want to have sex with me or not.

The person is a ass hole..

Queen Tokelove · « **Reply #3 on:** October 07, 2009, 03:15:11 pm »

Yeah, I feel your pain but mine was worse, it was my own family putting my status out there.

madbrain · « **Reply #4 on:** October 07, 2009, 03:23:24 pm »

Quote from: Queen Tokelove on October 07, 2009, 03:15:11 pm

Yeah, I feel your pain but mine was worse, it was my own family putting my status out there.

My father also told everyone on his side of the family about it after I broke the news to him, which was about a month after my diagnosis, and over the phone, since we live about 6000 miles apart. I was somewhat surprised that he would do that.
I never confronted him about it. I'm not sure that it would have been easier for me to disclose it individually to the rest of the family, which I would have done anyway, in time.
I don't think it was anything malicious on his part, rather, he just didn't know how to cope with this news alone.
My mother on the other hand kept her mouth shut. I recently disclosed to her sister during a trip to France last month.

madbrain · « **Reply #5 on:** October 07, 2009, 03:33:42 pm »

Quote from: poz_hiv_bruh on October 07, 2009, 08:59:56 am

So I've been upfront when meeting someone new that I'm HIV+ and up until recently, I haven't had any issues. Well recently I told this guy I was and he told SEVERAL people about my status and it's starting to spread like wild fire! So many people don't disclose thier status which I always thought was wrong, but now I'm start to actually understand why they don't.

How can people expect you to be upfront if they are going to be so malicious about your status?

Sorry about the previous thread digression about family disclosure. You did the right thing in disclosing your status to this guy. What he did after that was not under your control. Realize that information wants to be free and you can't control it. Disclosure is not something you can take back, as you found out. I think the answer is not to be ashamed of your status. If someone else has a problem with it, well, it's really their problem, not yours.

AlanBama · « **Reply #6 on:** October 07, 2009, 03:41:46 pm »

I think it's best to disclose, not only for the other person, but for your own protection. All these fools whose ads say "will bareback with neg bottoms" -- pu-lease. You know they're probably poz, or for sure going to end up that way. You just don't want them to be able to accuse YOU of getting them there.

next2u · « **Reply #7 on:** October 08, 2009, 01:32:40 am »

that guy was a ginormous asshole.

back to your question. disclosure is up to you. while i admire your policy i dont believe that disclosure is necessary in all situations.

best,
d

skeebo1969 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 08, 2009, 01:42:46 am »

Quote from: madbrain on October 07, 2009, 03:33:42 pm

Disclosure is not something you can take back, as you found out. I think the answer is not to be ashamed of your status. If someone else has a problem with it, well, it's really their problem, not yours.

So true!!!

dtwpuck · « **Reply #9 on:** October 08, 2009, 06:34:23 am »

That guy is an asshole. But, one of the suckiest things about being poz is that you are both morally and legally obligated to disclose your status to anyone with whom you have sex. This includes safe sex.

It sucks, but it's the way it is. The only way I know how to deal with it is to take control of the information yourself. Rather than letting it be gossip, let it be just one more fact about you. A lot of poz people, rightly so, have a lot of anxiety about stigma, rejection, etc etc etc. These things are going to happen.

Remember, other people are always going to talk about you. Realize that you will never be able to control it. But, you can control how YOU tell people. Yes, you are going to be rejected. And, yes, it will hurt sometimes. There is no magic way to grow a thicker skin or an "I don't give a fuck" attitude. But, somewhere, inside, you're going to need to either figure out a way to do it, or stick with doing other poz guys, or just hide and be unhappy. The word always gets out. It's going to be the same story. It's always going to hurt in the same way. And the rules are always the same.

dixieman · « **Reply #10 on:** October 08, 2009, 01:57:53 pm »

Hey ... you did the right thing in telling a potential sex partner... and this person is a Jackass... I know a person who was going around telling everyone elses buisness about a hookup they had about their status of being hiv+ in town... This person thought I would be shocked but, all I said was... are you their doctor and asked if this man who was hiv+ was cute? and since he did not want to trick with him could he give me his number! Well that floored this queen... I told the gossip at least he was man enough he had a disease ... oh and have youve been checked? or are you just going by prayer everytime you pick up a trick... Damn... I never did get the number... figures?

mecch · « **Reply #11 on:** October 08, 2009, 02:17:22 pm »

Of course you do not in all situations. Depends on several factors.

Sorry to offer the contrary opinion, or to open this to a old argument.
Please check YOUR state's laws as to disclosure of HIV status before a sex act.
Also, check YOUR state's laws about HIV transmission.

If there are no laws saying you have to disclose, then you do not have to disclose. If you transmit, it might be a crime, sometimes if you disclose, sometimes if you dont.

Those who say you are morally obliged to disclose, based on what code of morals, please?

Its a good idea to disclose. Maybe its your moral code, so stick to it.

The guy who spread the news was a jerk.

On the other hand, lets take a "hook up" just for sex. Or a place where people meet for sex, not cocktails and a potential boyfriend. Sex club. Park, etc.

In my book, if you are having safe sex in such as situation, you are not obliged to disclose. On the other hand, if a guy asks you, even in such a situation, in my book, I would disclose, since you were asked. Or, just say, "none of your business" and stop having sex with the person, or don't start. Leaves them in doubt - and you have confirmed nothing.

Disclosing in the above sex situations seems even less "morally" obligatory if you are on HAART and undetectable. But, this may, or may not, be LEGALLY advisable, so check it out where you live, or screw around.

Voila. can of worms.

dtwpuck · « **Reply #12 on:** October 08, 2009, 05:45:53 pm »

Prompted by Mecch's post. I just did some research. Interestingly, in most states, unauthorized disclosure of HIV status is also illegal. Telling another person that someone is poz is often something that can be the subject of a lawsuit. It is not limited to just healthcare providers. I didn't know that.

However, if there is a state that doesn't have an hiv disclosure law, I haven't found it yet. (I've only checked 14) I can't find any comprehensive list. But it does seem that the most draconian ones are Florida, Michigan and Texas. To date, there have been approximately 300 cases in the US ranging from misdemeanor to manslaughter. There's quite a range. Although, I haven't found one yet where the law states that it is ok not to disclose. Many states don't have an hiv specific law, but rather just a law that includes willful exposure to a communicable disease being considered assault at best, and attempted murder at worst.

I suppose stating that it is a moral obligation could be a gray area where two reasonable people could disagree. Although it strikes me as wishful thinking that it would be OK not to tell a sex partner all of the information. I certainly would not want to be caught in the situation where an infection occured as the result of non-disclosure. It's just not that important to get off. And, it's just not that difficult to find people who are ok with poz partners, especially when you're talking about casual sex.

so, poz-bruh.... maybe you live in a state where you can sue. Good luck with that.
Meech... thanks for pointing out that it's not so unilateral, at least in the US. I doubt that wilful non-disclosure would go unpunished, though, if tested in any US state.

mecch · « **Reply #13 on:** October 08, 2009, 05:57:23 pm »

Quote from: dtwpuck on October 08, 2009, 05:45:53 pm

Prompted by Mecch's post. I just did some research. Interestingly, in most states, unauthorized disclosure of HIV status is also illegal. Telling another person that someone is poz is often something that can be the subject of a lawsuit. It is not limited to just healthcare providers. I didn't know that.

However, if there is a state that doesn't have an hiv disclosure law, I haven't found it yet. (I've only checked 14) I can't find any comprehensive list. But it does seem that the most draconian ones are Florida, Michigan and Texas. To date, there have been approximately 300 cases in the US ranging from misdemeanor to manslaughter. There's quite a range. Although, I haven't found one yet where the law states that it is ok not to disclose. Many states don't have an hiv specific law, but rather just a law that includes willful exposure to a communicable disease being considered assault at best, and attempted murder at worst.

I suppose stating that it is a moral obligation could be a gray area where two reasonable people could disagree. Although it strikes me as wishful thinking that it would be OK not to tell a sex partner all of the information. I certainly would not want to be caught in the situation where an infection occured as the result of non-disclosure. It's just not that important to get off. And, it's just not that difficult to find people who are ok with poz partners, especially when you're talking about casual sex.

so, poz-bruh.... maybe you live in a state where you can sue. Good luck with that.
Meech... thanks for pointing out that it's not so unilateral, at least in the US. I doubt that wilful non-disclosure would go unpunished, though, if tested in any US state.

Your survey is extremely incomplete. The best method is to check with a local AIDS service organisation or gay rights group or health department. New York State law is extremely imprecise. IF there has never been a prosecution in NYS for sex without disclosure, why would it be legally prohibited now? I think there are states where transmission is the big no no. In other states, non disclosure itself is a no no.
From the law, as written, to enforcement is another matter to consider.

I am not an expert.

I don't even live in the USA, but I am a citizen.

In 25 years of fun and games, I can count on one hand the number of guys who have spontaneously disclosed in a sex only situation.

If you personally think it is wrong to not disclose, go ahead and stick to your principals. But there may not be a legal imperative depending on what country or state you live in. Also, increasingly, depending on whether you are undetectable or not. Sorry, that is the messy reality.

mecch · « **Reply #14 on:** October 08, 2009, 06:05:52 pm »

State Criminal Statutes on HIV Transmission
http://www.thebody.com/content/art6936.html

http://www.avert.org/criminal-transmission.htm

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Ruling-On-Non-Disclosure-Of-HIV-Positive-Status-Is-Not-Ethical-5150-1/

If you are interested in the subject, check out this comprehensive web site
http://criminalhivtransmission.blogspot.com/

dtwpuck · « **Reply #15 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:27:08 pm »

Mecch, I completely agree that the reality is messy. Truthfully, I can't say I really can remember that many people disclosing to me before I disclosed the them. But, that had a lot to do with the fact that I've always been very public about my status. So, for me it's skewed. But, at least during the years that I was a complete whore, I never really had that much difficulty. Men are pigs.

Anyway, some states don't have hiv specific laws but a long history of treating hiv as a lethal weapon. So the list at thebody.com is a bit misleading. Although, otherwise your postings are extremely informative. Thanks for posting. It sounds like Mass is the place to live.

I still stand by my assertion that it is wrong to disclose. I just can't find any moral justification for not doing so. Ethics are, ultimately, subjective. There are many good, reasonable people who disagree with me.

Basquo · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2009, 09:22:48 pm »

Quote from: dtwpuck on October 08, 2009, 05:45:53 pm

But it does seem that the most draconian ones are Florida, Michigan and Texas.

Texas has "draconian" laws regarding disclosure? Do tell! Granted, you can get 30+ years for spitting on someone if you're HIV+, but I don't think there's anything on the books for consensual or trick sex until there's actual transmission. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Don't forget that Texas' unpublished state motto is "Don't Fuck Up, Or We'll Kill You. Really."

It doesn't fit on a standard license plate.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #17 on:** October 08, 2009, 10:45:15 pm »

Quote from: Basquo on October 08, 2009, 09:22:48 pm

Don't forget that Texas' unpublished state motto is "Don't Fuck Up, Or We'll Kill You. Really."

And if we DO kill you and you're really innocent, then the Republican governor will cover that up!

AndyArrow · « **Reply #18 on:** October 09, 2009, 01:43:35 am »

I think a better law would require people to disclose if they are a total prat before having sex ... it's a bitch to find these things out afterwards.

skeebo1969 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 09, 2009, 03:32:23 am »

I used to feel one way about this. It took a while, but I have to admit seeing some of the struggles some go through here with trying to meet someone without being judged up front seems to be quite a nightmare. I think it is up to the person and what they choose to do, The one thing I do hope that if one is positive they choose to use protection during sexual encounters, Other than that it is a personal preference whether to disclose or not.

The only thing I use my morals for is when I buckle my seat belt... wait a second that's just self preservation... What the hell are morals anyways..... I think I'm more of an ethical kind of guy

Like not cheatin on my wife and changing diapers and stuff. But wait those are commandments and duties and stuff. Man I forgot where I was going with this...... stiff frazzled from work, some poor lady turned onto some train tracks and got stuck on a bridge.... Instead of calling 911 she called roadside assistance and got me.

  Sorry for the rant... can't stand to hear a woman cry!
  Sorry for the hijack also... I had a point but lost it in my need to share.

  Only tip I have is just be careful who you disclose to because you don't know what some of these crazies will do.

  Thomass

TheRoof · « **Reply #20 on:** October 10, 2009, 02:13:02 pm »

Hmm. Very interesting.

This wouldn't apply to me, as I practice celibacy. Lol

But I always wondered this. Insightful.

ruralguy · « **Reply #21 on:** October 10, 2009, 03:45:56 pm »

From MECCH: "On the other hand, lets take a "hook up" just for sex. Or a place where people meet for sex, not cocktails and a potential boyfriend. Sex club. Park, etc.

In my mind, if you are having safe sex in such a situation, you are not obliged to disclose. On the other hand, if a guy asks you, even in such a situation, in my book, I would disclose, since you were asked. Or, just say, "none of your business" and stop having sex with the person, or don't start. Leaves them in doubt - and you have confirmed nothing."

My thoughts:

In a sex club or similar situation, if you are undectable, on HAART, play safely (always) then I don't think you need to disclose. People in such places generally behave as if everyone else is poz and if you run into someone who doesn't, don't play with them. Untested pos people (I saw a number suggesting 25% of pos people don't get tested?) are far more dangerous.

Going into the same situation, not undectable and seeking unsafe sex is clearly problematic.

Just my view.

[/quote]

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #22 on:** October 10, 2009, 04:10:29 pm »

Quote from: ruralguy on October 10, 2009, 03:45:56 pm

My thoughts:

In a sex club or similar situation, if you are undectable, on HAART, play safely (always) then I don't think you need to disclose. People in such places generally behave as if everyone else is poz and if you run into someone who doesn't, don't play with them. Untested pos people (I saw a number suggesting 25% of pos people don't get tested?) are far more dangerous.

Going into the same situation, not undectable and seeking unsafe sex is clearly problematic.

How about a one night stand from a bar/nightclub pick up that you take back home to your place (i.e. non-sex club hook up) -- all other precautions as you described remain the same (i.e. on HAART, specifically suppressed viral load I guess, and of course using a condom)

TheRoof · « **Reply #23 on:** October 10, 2009, 04:23:36 pm »

Not sure if right or not. even if you are on HAART.

Do HIV drugs eliminate the HIV from the semen? Because I heard that there isn't really a reduction.

denb45 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 10, 2009, 05:09:21 pm »

I believe in full disclosure about my HIV+ status, always has been my rule, if someone doesn't like it, there are certainly other HIV+ people out there who do

ruralguy · « **Reply #25 on:** October 10, 2009, 05:23:35 pm »

Well I've not yet confronted an anon situation so I don't know how I would really act. But I've been wondering about it so this thread is useful

I guess I think taking someone home is beyond anon, so I think disclosure is needed. Agreed? If you think you might want to get more connected to somone, disclosure is needed.

And, no, Roof, Haart does not eliminate risk but greatly reduces it...in any event you must play safe or forget it, disclosure or not.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #26 on:** October 10, 2009, 05:34:26 pm »

Quote from: ruralguy on October 10, 2009, 05:23:35 pm

I guess I think taking someone home is beyond anon, so I think disclosure is needed. Agreed? If you think you might want to get more connected to somone, disclosure is needed.

You can cycle through 50 men in NYC (meaning met at bar, take home for a one-nighter) before you find one you actually want to endure through a 2 hour date. Trust me on that.

weasel · « **Reply #27 on:** October 10, 2009, 06:59:43 pm »

You can cycle through 50 men in NYC (meaning met at bar, take home for a one-nighter) before you find one you actually want to endure through a 2 hour date. Trust me on that.

Yes Miss Philicia this IS true

ROTFLMAO !

I think everyone should disclose , period !

I know people have big ugly mouths and have nothing better to do than spread crap

around , I know they THINK it makes them the better person .

The last time i was in Las Vegas the bartender told me " Don't worry ALL these men are HIV POZ "

I was shocked ! But now that I have grown into my new role of a POZ man I just

go with the flow !

You can only be hurt if you allow them to hurt you !

be well , be safe

Carl

ruralguy · « **Reply #28 on:** October 10, 2009, 08:17:25 pm »

To many here I am sure this is an old, maybe tired, subject. But I appreciate the different points of view.
Thanks.

mecch · « **Reply #29 on:** October 10, 2009, 08:58:13 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on October 10, 2009, 04:10:29 pm

How about a one night stand from a bar/nightclub pick up that you take back home to your place (i.e. non-sex club hook up) -- all other precautions as you described remain the same (i.e. on HAART, specifically suppressed viral load I guess, and of course using a condom)

Hmm. If one has sex with the intention its just sex and not relationship material, in the above situation, no obligation to disclose.
This could backfire if he turns into prince charming and you have to disclose a few humps down the road. But, if he rejects you then, its the same result, he wasn't for you. You might be hurt, however.

Long term f*ck buddy also poses an interesting question.

denb45 · « **Reply #30 on:** October 10, 2009, 09:14:36 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on October 10, 2009, 05:34:26 pm

You can cycle through 50 men in NYC (meaning met at bar, take home for a one-nighter) before you find one you actually want to endure through a 2 hour date. Trust me on that.

Yes, but, I always loved a good Brooklyn accent, it makes me weak in the knees......

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #31 on:** October 10, 2009, 09:34:37 pm »

Quote from: denb45 on October 10, 2009, 09:14:36 pm

Yes, but, I always loved a good Brooklyn accent, it makes me weak in the knees......

Well, don't look at me Beatrice. I grew up in DC and sound like Truman Capote.

mecch · « **Reply #32 on:** October 10, 2009, 09:46:45 pm »

Miss P, what you say about NYC male quality is terrible news. What has happened to the Big Apple.

denb45 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 10, 2009, 10:37:07 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on October 10, 2009, 09:34:37 pm

Well, don't look at me Beatrice. I grew up in DC and sound like Truman Capote.

Then you don't have Brooklyn accent.......

PeteNYNJ · « **Reply #34 on:** October 10, 2009, 10:54:46 pm »

I think Philly is using NYC as an example, the same could be said about any city that I have ever been to.

I think the choice to disclose is a personal decision. There is no right or wrong answer. If you do, be prepared for some stigma from some people and also some gossip. If you don't, be prepared for the repercussions if people you sleep with do find out you are positive.

I choose to disclose upfront because I feel it gives me some kind of power over my status. I don't worry so much of infecting anyone because I only have safe sex now. I understand if people don't want to have sex with me because of it, I try not to take it personally. I think most people are pretty cool about the whole situation, in most cases it isn't the first time they have heard this news from a potential romance.

daysleeper · « **Reply #35 on:** October 11, 2009, 04:52:21 am »

Of course you have to tell your partners.

Ask yourself, as a negative guy, would you want to be told? And how would you feel finding out after the fact that you hadn't been told?

Right. So tell them.

WildcatCC · « **Reply #36 on:** October 13, 2009, 01:57:11 pm »

YOU - great guy for disclosing.
HIM - HUGE asshole for disclosing. Or maybe not ..

Something similar happened to me. I disclosed my status to a friend (non-sexual) who proceeded to tell many others. It was not his right to do so and yes, I sure was pissed.

Then about a month later, another friend asked me to lunch. We landed on the subject of "asshole friend" and he confided in me that our mutual friend disclosed to him that I was poz. He told me this because he recently found out he was poz and needed someone he could talk too. I was glad to help.

So a bad situation turned into a positive one - so to speak.

Ann · « **Reply #37 on:** October 14, 2009, 11:26:32 am »

I had a somewhat similar experience to Wildcat. In 2004/05 I was working as a substance abuse counsellor. We shared a building with an alcohol support agency. I was out about my status to both agencies.

One of the women who worked for the alcohol agency was very excited to hear about my status - because she had a positive client. This client and I live in the same small town, so she was sure I'd know the client. I reminded her she could not legally or ethically tell me this person's identity. Wow, was she disappointed. I did give her some reading materials to pass on to this person, and offered that she was free to disclose MY status to her client and if the client wanted to talk, I was more than happy to give my time and support.

Well, her client never made any further appointments. Over a period of about six weeks, the alcohol counsellor dropped ever increasingly specific hints as to her positive client's identity. I talked to her supervisor and she was told to stop, but she didn't. I'd actually put my hands over my ears and walk out of the room when she'd start hint-dropping, but eventually I heard enough and knew her client's identity. I had known this person for years, as it turned out, and we've always been on friendly terms, but not what you'd call close.

I told her supervisor about the illegal disclosure, but no disciplinary action was ever taken. I probably should have gone to the relevant governmental board, but was advised by my own supervisor to "not rock the boat". I was struggling at the time with fatigue issues (largely due to going back to work too soon after my hep C treatment) and I really didn't have the energy to do what needed to be done without the support of my colleagues, so I had to drop the issue.

Anyway, I sat on the information for a few years, all the while knowing this person was very isolated and closeted regarding hiv infection. I agonised over how to reach out to this person without this person freaking out. Finally, on World Aids Day 2007, I bit the bullet and rang the client up to ask if I could drop in for coffee and a catch-up. It was absolutely the right thing to do. The client told me of the desire to talk to me about it for years (as most of you know, my status is no secret) but couldn't gather the courage to do so.

We are very close friends now and my only regret is that I didn't reach out sooner. I informed my friend how I found out, but my friend, although very angry at the counsellor at first, decided to not take any action. My friend decided that the eventual outcome was more important.

And I never realised until I wrote this story out just how hard it is to discuss a third party without giving anything about them away, such as gender.

My friend has very good reasons for remaining closeted, no other people are being put in danger of infection through the non-disclosure, and I wouldn't dream of putting any information anywhere that might lead to identification.

Ann

a2z · « **Reply #38 on:** October 14, 2009, 12:13:12 pm »

Quote from: Ann on October 14, 2009, 11:26:32 am

I had a somewhat similar experience to Wildcat...

This is a great story, thanks for sharing it.

I've been very fortunate so far. I've chosen for a number of reasons to keep my status private, particularly from my friends who know that I'm gay and used to be very sexually active. While I made my choices, after 10 years of well-meaning "Be safe", I really just wanted to turn around and punch a few of these people.... it started to feel like a lecture rather than well-wishing.

The sexual non-disclosure is a separate issue. I do not see how one can NOT tell a potential partner you are infected, even if there are consequences to you. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to.

I've mitigated the disclosure risk by simply having sex a lot more with my right hand, and occasionally the left hand for variety. It's not a very satisfying answer for many people, but for where I am in my life, it actually works out very well. If I met someone I liked, I would feel no need to disclose until sex was imminent.

pos2007 · « **Reply #39 on:** October 14, 2009, 02:30:19 pm »

You must disclose both legally and for your own clear conscience. The unfortunate circumstance you had with the loser bum that couldn't keep his yap shut was no more than an evil action that is part of the reason that hell is so nearly full to capacity that some of us may get to go to heaven soley due to lack of space in hell. Living in a small gossipy Missouri town where everyone knows if you pass gas before you even get back to the house, I can understand your frustrations. Here in Missouri you can easily get 25 years to the death penalty

for non disclosure. ( just read an article about it a few days ago after I got out of the hospital) . In Iowa you can go to prison for non disclosure before kissing. WTF?

It is a very screwed up bigotted world we live in. It is our job not to be the screw up. I know it is hard to tolerate. Many have even suggested that you must protect yourself by getting that disclosure in writing and even witnessed due to the number of cases where the person lies and says you didn't disclose resulting in criminal prosecution you have no way to otherwise defend. (you say-he says). From what I have read, the courts usually side on the side of the accuser. I would further suggest that such written disclosure also state that if the person you disclose to blabs, that you will pursue every legal means available to see that they lose everything including both balls. The laws against us are very one sided. No other disease has this stigma or level of penalties. You can spread Hepatitas A,B,C, or Papillomaviras 24 hours/7/365 days per year w/o penalty . Even people with those infections should disclose to give you the option of saying yes/ no/ lets be extra careful. We live in a society of hateful people looking for drama. Use this as a learning experience. You may also talk to your case manager if you have one worth having and ask them to talk to the A hole to explain how uncool he has behaved. I would also tell others you are comfortable with what a jerk this guy is. Over time the loser bum scumbag jerk will only be having sex with the 4 fingers of his right hand because everyone who doesn't want to be talked about will avoid him. I am sorry you had to go through this, but appreciate you sharing so that others may learn from it. There is a wealth of advise available here from people who care. Good Luck!!

pos2007 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 14, 2009, 09:24:11 pm »

In a sex club or similar situation, if you are undectable, on HAART, play safely (always) then I don't think you need to disclose.
In a anon situation, like a sex club for example:
- if you are on meds
- if you are undetectable
- if you take playing safe seriously (specifically use a condom for anal sex)
- and you have no expectation of any relationship
Then the risk of any transmission is nil

ruralguy, some HIV meds do not pass the brain barrier OR THE GENITAL barriers to kill the virus. I take Atripla. Unfortunately it is one of those drugs. I have <48 (undetectable ) blood viral load, but it was still there in full force in my ejaculate ( at least before the prostatectomy when there was still such stuff). You still need to use protection even if you are undetectable . Condoms are not infallable. Even undetectable doesn't mean it's not there. The virus is there. It is just in too low of a quantity for the test to find more than 48 copies in the sample. It only took one cell of the nasty little bugger to infect you. One is all it will take to infect someone else. The laws stills says you must inform and everyone should have the option to decline or give informed consent. Yes, if you are undetectable, the chances are less than if you pump someone full of 50,000 copies, but the chance still exists. USE PROTECTION. HEP A,B,C, drug resistant HIV, herpes, other STD's can go TWO ways. It is not a one way street.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #41 on:** October 14, 2009, 09:31:29 pm »

I don't see in ruralguy's post(s) where he stated that he was barebacking.

ruralguy · « **Reply #42 on:** October 15, 2009, 09:35:46 am »

I would never bareback with anyone....period...whether you inform them of your status or not, it is simply not something a poz person can do anymore. That is is how poz people become poz and that is over.

Here is what I was suggesting:

In a anon situation, like a sex club for example:
- if you are on meds
- if you are undetectable
- if you take playing safe seriously (specifically use a condom for anal sex)
- and you have no expectation of any relationship
Then the risk of any transmission is nil. Then I suggest you don't need to tell your partner. Furthermore, if you run into someone who does not play safe you are obligated to leave that situation and find someone else to play with.

Lastly it is certainly true that in doing this you run the risk of picking up some other STD but it is very unlikely to be hiv. It is also true that there are legal issues in some places and not others. And if you have any expectation of getting to know someone as a sex partner, lover, or just as a friend you need to tell them pretty soon or it is unlikely to be a successful relationship of any sort.

Responsible people in such an anon situation assume everyone is poz and that is how they stay safe. I suggest poz people on meds and undetectable are probably some of the safest people to play with in such a situation as their health is regularly tracked. Untested, untreated poz people are the worst, and they will be there too, so you have to protect yourself.

I haven't found myself in a situation like this and I think this forums are a good place to discuss it. I read so much lasting fear of and withdrawl from sex here that it makes me wonder if it isn't so over-the-top as to be unhealthy. A decent sex life is part of being a healthy person.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #43 on:** October 15, 2009, 09:52:42 am »

Quote from: ruralguy on October 15, 2009, 09:35:46 am

I read so much lasting fear of and withdrawl from sex here that it makes me wonder if it isn't so over-the-top as to be unhealthy. A decent sex life is part of being a healthy person.

You got that one right.

Actually, short term celibacy is theoretically OK but only if one doesn't lose interest in sex, meaning specifically you still whack off daily (preferably with really raunchy German porn). It's when you lose all interest in things sexual that it's indicative of depression.

loop78 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 15, 2009, 12:59:47 pm »

In my opinion, our duty is to play safe. Using condoms correctly basically means transmission cannot happen.

Disclosure falls in another different category altogether. If you disclose, more power to you: it's a sign of strong character, contributes to fighting stigma and may be even better for you in the long run. It's a personal decision, a supererogatory act, not a duty.

I believe the opposite is lopsided and counterproductive.

We are all equally responsible for taking care of our health. It's not lack of disclosure what allows transmission, it's unsafe sex. We did not end up in this forum because someone (who might know he or she was poz or not) didn't say "hey, by the way, I'm hiv positive" while unzipping his/her fly, we did because we had sex without taking the appropriate measures to prevent transmission from happening. There is not such a thing as safe serosorting between neggies, precisely because being negative is just a supposition.

As long as neggies keep placing the emphasis in disclosure instead of doing it in safe sex as a personal responsibility, the number of pozzies will keep growing. When it's us, the positive, the ones who treat disclosure as if we were talking about a sacred duty, I can't help but wonder whether we are still dwelling on why we weren't told: blame and what if, what if, what if... It's time to move on.

And don't get me started with criminalization...

PS: FYI, I'm all for disclosing myself, but because it's my choice, not because I believe I should be obliged to.

denb45 · « **Reply #45 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:07:42 pm »

You cannot assume everyone in this forum got HIV due to unprotected sex, some of us may have gotten it thur Blood transfusions, dirty needles, bad surgical equipment, believe it or not that still happens...you simply cannot say everyone in this forum who is POZ+ got it due to unprotected sex, that's a little unfair.......

loop78 · « **Reply #46 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:27:51 pm »

I would say it's innacurate, not unfair. It's not like any type of transmission is the fairest of them all

ruralguy · « **Reply #47 on:** October 15, 2009, 03:17:31 pm »

Quote from: denb45 on October 15, 2009, 02:07:42 pm

You cannot assume everyone in this forum got HIV due to unprotected sex, some of us may have gotten it thur Blood transfusions, dirty needles, bad surgical equipment, believe it or not that still happens...you simply cannot say everyone in this forum who is POZ+ got it due to unprotected sex, that's a little unfair.......

good point...I didn't mean to offend.

Quote from: loop78 on October 15, 2009, 12:59:47 pm

In my opinion, our duty is to play safe. Using condoms correctly basically means transmission cannot happen.

yep, 100% agree

Ann · « **Reply #48 on:** October 15, 2009, 03:27:57 pm »

Quote from: loop78 on October 15, 2009, 12:59:47 pm

supererogatory

Cool word, Loop, thanks for using it. I had to look it up, something I rarely have to do because I'm such a word-nerd (armchair etymologist).

I agree with what you said as well. Non-disclosure doesn't cause transmission, unsafe sex does.

Personally, I always disclose too, and yes, I also view it as a personal choice, not something that's obligatory. I've even used disclosure as a handy way to get rid of some schmuck in the pub who thinks he's god's gift and won't take a simple "no thank you" for an answer. It's usually jerks who are like that and jerks usually run a mile when they hear those magic "I'm hiv positive" words.

Works like a charm. Disclosure is a very good asshole screening mechanism.

Ann

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #49 on:** October 15, 2009, 03:39:19 pm »

Quote from: Ann on October 15, 2009, 03:27:57 pm

I've even used disclosure as a handy way to get rid of some schmuck in the pub who thinks he's god's gift and won't take a simple "no thank you" for an answer.

Doesn't always work with homos I'm afraid. If they're clingy types it can even backfire. They think it makes you more desperate, in need of "mothering" and thus an even easier catch. Then you have to try three times as hard to shake the toilet paper off of your shoe.

Ann · « **Reply #50 on:** October 15, 2009, 04:03:33 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on October 15, 2009, 03:39:19 pm

Doesn't always work with homos I'm afraid. If they're clingy types it can even backfire. They think it makes you more desperate, in need of "mothering" and thus an even easier catch. Then you have to try three times as hard to shake the toilet paper off of your shoe.

Oh dear, I can just imagine it! $:-\$ It backfired on me once, I have to admit. I think it made me seem even more of a challenge and a chance to hone his PC credentials. You know, so he could say something along the lines of "I've got no problem with pozzies, I even shagged one once!"

Ann

pos2007 · « **Reply #51 on:** October 15, 2009, 09:36:12 pm »

i want to clarify, if you go back and read the posts, you will see that ruralguy has stated several times he uses protection and recommends protection. The point I was trying to make is that undectable does not mean you are unable to transmit virus. Virus transmission is possible , even below quantifiable detection numbers. If the chance were nil at undetectable, then we could could quit taking our meds at that point w/o having viral rebound and declare ourselves cured; but that is just not the way it works. I also want to tell him that no offense is taken by those of us that were infected by blood transfusions and I appreciate your saying what you said. I am just trying to debate the subject based on the laws and facts and in no way want to judge or accuse anyone.

mecch · « **Reply #52 on:** October 16, 2009, 12:20:01 pm »

Quote from: pos2007 on October 15, 2009, 09:36:12 pm

i want to clarify, if you go back and read the posts, you will see that ruralguy has stated several times he uses protection and recommends protection. The point I was trying to make is that undectable does not mean you are unable to transmit virus. Virus transmission is possible , even below quantifiable detection numbers. If the chance were nil at undetectable, then we could could quit taking our meds at that point w/o having viral rebound and declare ourselves cured; but that is just not the way it works. I also want to tell him that no offense is taken by those of us that were infected by blood transfusions and I appreciate your saying what you said. I am just trying to debate the subject based on the laws and facts and in no way want to judge or accuse anyone.

This is gobblygook. Undectable is considered non-transmissable by increasing numbers of scientists. Its controversial and hasn't impacted safe sex guidelines NOR criminal transmission and criminal non disclosure laws.

And yes, you gotta KEEP taking your HAART to stay there.

mecch · « **Reply #53 on:** October 16, 2009, 12:27:34 pm »

This is a global forum. There are nations in the world where non disclosure is not a crime.
There are states in the US where you are not obliged to disclose HIV status.

This thread is filled with sloppy confusion of criminal transmission and criminal non disclosure.

There are many good reasons to disclose to any partner. If you aren't willing to check the laws in your locale, then avoiding a crime may not be one of the reasons to disclose, if there is no law requiring you to do so.

Assurbanipal · « **Reply #54 on:** October 16, 2009, 12:43:42 pm »

Quote from: mecch on October 16, 2009, 12:27:34 pm

This is a global forum. There are nations in the world where non disclosure is not a crime.
There are states in the US where you are not obliged to disclose HIV status.

The golden rule is pretty universal though.

Rephrased in this context: Would you have rather been told by someone who knew they were Poz about their status before you were sexually active with them?

Implementing is a bitch though. What is "sexually active"? Do you have to read the mind of the other person for a definition? That's at the core of your question, and there's no easy answer except about who you are and who you aspire to be.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #55 on:** October 16, 2009, 01:17:39 pm »

Quote from: Assurbanipal on October 16, 2009, 12:43:42 pm

The golden rule is pretty universal though.

Rephrased in this context: Would you have rather been told by someone who knew they were Poz about their status before you were sexually active with them?

If I'd used a condom this question would have been rendered irrelevant, so I don't really understand this line of reasoning. It's also amplified as irrelevant by the large multitudes that are infected by have never tested, which means you never actually have knowledge about what a partner has or doesn't have.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #56 on:** October 16, 2009, 01:20:00 pm »

Quote from: mecch on October 16, 2009, 12:27:34 pm

This thread is filled with sloppy confusion of criminal transmission and criminal non disclosure.

Mix that with self-anointed moralism and some psychological projection about their barebacking years of yore and you get a very nasty stew.

mecch · « **Reply #57 on:** October 16, 2009, 01:30:39 pm »

Merely responding to those in this thread who keep insisting you have to disclose by law.
It may not be the case.

As to "would you want the person to disclose to you?"
wake up man, smell the reality -- the answer of this old pro is that for more than two decades I followed safe sex rules with strangers and there were many many times it never mattered to me enough to ask and I probably neither wanted to or needed to know. It was assumed a percentage were positive. Period.

But, I'll give you this - when ASKED, there is no defense for lying then screwing. I have been lied to and bitterly resented those people for the lie. Including long-term partners. Especially those. And despite it being safe sex.

If you are positive, and someone asked you if you are positive, and you don't want to answer, then you can lie, but then you can't screw. You have to walk away. Have to make up a excuse, like Marsha Brady, "something suddenly came up", and not screw. Or you tell the truth and the potential partner gets to decide.

If you are in the middle of the act, and some silly stranger asks if you are positive, well, if you are having safe sex, why not just say yeah brother and deal with the consequences. Even then, if you feel like you might be in danger, I guess you can say "wow, you know how to spoil a hot moment" and zip up and leave without confirming or denying.

I've never been in an unsafe situation where the question came up.

mecch · « **Reply #58 on:** October 16, 2009, 01:35:14 pm »

If you live in one of those states where there are laws requiring disclosure of HIV, in any sex act, then none of this chat implies. Always disclose, and while you are at it, get it in writing that you disclosed, cause it could come down to your word against the other.... All for nuthin. I'd move. Or get a partner, stay faithful, and get it in writing.

Assurbanipal · « **Reply #59 on:** October 16, 2009, 03:00:18 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on October 16, 2009, 01:17:39 pm

If I'd used a condom this question would have been rendered irrelevant, so I don't really understand this line of reasoning. It's also amplified as irrelevant by the large multitudes that are infected by have never tested, which means you never actually have knowledge about what a partner has or doesn't have.

It's only irrelevant if you define the issue solely in terms of transmission. The OP is clearly struggling with expectations of people he meets.

Your suggestion is that those expectations of disclosure do not matter if there is no risk of transmission. But if one is dealing with people's expectations you may have to go beyond "no risk of transmission" to treat them as they wish to be treated. Course the golden rule doesn't say you have to go so far as they would expect -- and to meet some people's expectations you would need to wear a flashing HIV+ sign in every dark bar -- but you do need to get comfortable with what you would want to know in their situation.

Perhaps, Miss P, you have decided that the only time you would want to know would be if there was no condom. That's great, but you are not the OP. To feel good about this Bruh is probably going to need to think through what he would have liked, when he was on the other side of the question.

It's probably situational -- a different answer in the bar from the sex club from the restaurant.

Frankly the sex club is one of the easiest -- sdcabincrew nailed it (in one sense or another

) in this thread. http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10999.msg137218#msg137218

edited to finish post

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #60 on:** October 16, 2009, 03:20:04 pm »

Uh, no dear -- in that last post of yours that I quoted you were replying to meech. The OP hasn't ventured in his own thread now for over a week. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of what you were saying.

By the way, I disagree with thinking sdcabincrew "nailed it". If I'm going to bareback with a partner, and definitely as the top, I need to know if they're positive or negative. I'm not going to see some drunk/high guy that's not thinking clearly. If others here are comfortable doing this then, well, I'm not sure what to say. I'm not even sure if I want to read the rest of his post there.

ruralguy · « **Reply #61 on:** October 16, 2009, 03:35:38 pm »

Quote from: Assurbanipal on October 16, 2009, 03:00:18 pm

Frankly the sex club is one of the easiest -- sdcabincrew nailed it (in one sense or another ) in this thread. http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10999.msg137218#msg137218

Thanks for this Assurbanipal ....it is a long and interesting thread covering much of the same ground

Assurbanipal · « **Reply #62 on:** October 16, 2009, 06:00:12 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on October 16, 2009, 03:20:04 pm

Uh, no dear -- in that last post of yours that I quoted you were replying to meech. The OP hasn't ventured in his own thread now for over a week. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of what you were saying.

By the way, I disagree with thinking sdcabincrew "nailed it". If I'm going to bareback with a partner, and definitely as the top, I need to know if they're positive or negative. I'm not going to see some drunk/high guy that's not thinking clearly. If others here are comfortable doing this then, well, I'm not sure what to say. I'm not even sure if I want to read the rest of his post there.

Quoted mecch, replied to OP in context of mecch quote. But ... whatever ... excess precision and all that ....

Did I link to the wrong post in that long thread? The point was that Sdcabincrew had found a way to disclose in a sex club setting (using language both memorable and concise). And also I thought folks who were replying here that had not seen that thread might find it germane (and fun),

komnaes · « **Reply #63 on:** October 17, 2009, 12:29:48 am »

I don't see how one can interpret the OP was talking about expectations of others. He simply relayed his frustration of disclosing too readily, only to find out the person he disclosed to does not respect his privacy one bit. What does that get to do with expectation of whether potential dates and sexual partners would want to be be with one of us?

sensual1973 · « **Reply #64 on:** October 17, 2009, 02:53:48 am »

to me this is a burden and a confusing subject.as much as i would like to tell and get it out of the way and feel that i have been honest as much as am worried that the other person will go spreading my hiv status to others who dont have the right to know.I only play safe and most of the guys i meet are for a one night stands.On the other hand,when i try to hook up with poz guys they all seem to want it unprotected :-( , i really feel isolated at times.

Ann · « **Reply #65 on:** October 17, 2009, 03:35:46 am »

Quote from: komnaes on October 17, 2009, 12:29:48 am

I don't see how one can interpret the OP was talking about expectations of others. He simply relayed his frustration of disclosing too readily, only to find out the person he disclosed to does not respect his privacy one bit. What does that get to do with expectation of whether potential dates and sexual partners would want to be be with one of us?

I don't think anyone was really misinterpreting the OP, it's just that any time we pozzies discuss the issue of disclosure, all this other stuff is going to come into the discussion because it's all part and parcel. It's all related. It's a huge, difficult subject.

Some here think the constant discussions on disclosure are beating a dead horse, but we're all in different places on our journey with hiv and I like to think (hope?) that the more we talk these things through, the more people are going to personally benefit and take a few more steps forward, instead of backward, on their journey. Some of us are already through the woods of disclosure, some of us are in the thick of it, and some are on the path just outside the forest and petrified of entering.

Maybe we could call it the Yellow Brick Road of Disclosure. You're going to meet a witch or two on the way, and run into some scary trees and monkeys, but you're also going to meet some good friends too. In the end, hopefully you'll get to the Emerald City and from there, home. Of which there's no place like.

And just because I can, I'd like to trot out my old chestnut - "the more we hide, the more we HAVE to hide."

Just my 2p.

Ann

komnaes · « **Reply #66 on:** October 17, 2009, 03:54:37 am »

Nice pre-emptive catch Ann... hence my admiration.

Shaun, who's mellow at home and listening to Pletnev playing Debussy on a Sat afternoon...

debsd222 · « **Reply #67 on:** October 17, 2009, 12:49:42 pm »

Quote from: mecch on October 08, 2009, 02:17:22 pm

Of course you do not in all situations. Depends on several factors.

Sorry to offer the contrary opinion, or to open this to a old argument.
Please check YOUR state's laws as to disclosure of HIV status before a sex act.
Also, check YOUR state's laws about HIV transmission.

If there are no laws saying you have to disclose, then you do not have to disclose. If you transmit, it might be a crime, sometimes if you disclose, sometimes if you dont.

Those who say you are morally obliged to disclose, based on what code of morals, please?

Its a good idea to disclose. Maybe its your moral code, so stick to it.

The guy who spread the news was a jerk.

On the other hand, lets take a "hook up" just for sex. Or a place where people meet for sex, not cocktails and a potential boyfriend. Sex club. Park, etc.

In my book, if you are having safe sex in such as situation, you are not obliged to disclose. On the other hand, if a guy asks you, even in such a situation, in my book, I would disclose, since you were asked. Or, just say, "none of your business" and stop having sex with the person, or don't start. Leaves them in doubt - and you have confirmed nothing.

Disclosing in the above sex situations seems even less "morally" obligatory if you are on HAART and undetectable. But, this may, or may not, be LEGALLY advisable, so check it out where you live, or screw around.

Voila. can of worms.

skeebo1969 · « **Reply #68 on:** October 17, 2009, 03:11:30 pm »

Quote from: Ann on October 17, 2009, 03:35:46 am

I don't think anyone was really misinterpreting the OP, it's just that any time we pozzies discuss the issue of disclosure, all this other stuff is going to come into the discussion because it's all part and parcel. It's all related. It's a huge, difficult subject.

Some here think the constant discussions on disclosure are beating a dead horse, but we're all in different places on our journey with hiv and I like to think (hope?) that the more we talk these things through, the more people are going to personally benefit and take a few more steps forward, instead of backward, on their journey. Some of us are already through the woods of disclosure, some of us are in the thick of it, and some are on the path just outside the forest and petrified of entering.

Maybe we could call it the Yellow Brick Road of Disclosure. You're going to meet a witch or two on the way, and run into some scary trees and monkeys, but you're also going to meet some good friends too. In the end, hopefully you'll get to the Emerald City and from there, home. Of which there's no place like.

And just because I can, I'd like to trot out my old chestnut - "the more we hide, the more we HAVE to hide."

Just my 2p.

Ann

Damn Ann that is deeeep... I like the Yellow Brick Road of Disclosure analogy...... A very positive outlook indeed.

elf · « **Reply #69 on:** October 18, 2009, 09:26:57 am »

When I was HIV negative, I didn't really expect someone to tell me: Hey, I'm HIV positive.
Here in Europe most countries haven't criminalized a nondisclosure (Only Norway has).

After my being diagnosed, a counselor at the HIV clinic told me: you don't have to disclose but you have to use condoms...

I think I don't even have to disclose anything because I think that everyone knows about my status, with only 500 cases and only 1 HIV clinic in this country, everyone who saw me entering this clinic knows I'm HIV+, and information spread very quick in this tiny country Cr.oatia is (especially in the gay community that is much like ''National Enquirer'')

Furthermore, the only person I disclosed was the best friend of mine (a lesbian), but she ran away from me, and told everyone I know (and don't know) about my status.

Now, I live hiding.

So, having a sex with someone here is a big no no.

I've never been a ''sexual'' person, but more of a romantic one, so it's even more difficult...I do think (subjectivelly speaking) one should disclose if relationship is (going to be) involved, even tho' I do think one should not necessarily have to disclose in a ONS situation...

The moral of the story: I was sexually active from 1999-2008, 9 partners (3 of them were boyfriends), with the last partner a condom was not used: and I tested positive.

Suga · « **Reply #70 on:** October 18, 2009, 09:15:31 pm »

I go throught the same thing! Now I have to be extra careful of whom I deal with at all. It is a hard task. And if someone ask me that I did not tell I tell them no. Not because I am trying to hide something but because I feel it is none of their business.

Quote from: poz_hiv_bruh on October 07, 2009, 08:59:56 am

So I've been upfront when meeting someone new that I'm HIV+ and up until recently, I haven't had any issues. Well recently I told this guy I was and he told SEVERAL people about my status and it's starting to spread like wild fire! So many people don't disclose thier status which I always thought was wrong, but now I'm start to actually understand why they don't.

How can people expect you to be upfront if they are going to be so malicious about your status?

pos2007 · « **Reply #71 on:** October 18, 2009, 11:04:30 pm »

I'll put it this way when you say that you are 100% safe using a condom. My wife and I have both heard about several kids that were born in our area; their parents saying they weren't planned, the condom broke. As I've stated here B4, you should try to be careful, but sometimes sht just happens. As to the comment if you are undetectable you can't spread the virus: Sweden announced that last winter; a month later a study came out that disproved the Swiss theory. Read the past issues of Aids meds and POZ. it is in there. Like I said, it often depends on what meds you are on and if the meds pass into your genitals ( prostate/ testicals/ cowpers glan/ seminal vesicals). Some drugs don't. I'll go one step further. Having AIDS from being HIV pos. sucks. Been there. I know. I would not wish on my enemies. Anyone that is willing to "chance" exposing someone else without disclosing w/o giving them the opportunity to decline is an ass. End of story.

edfu · « **Reply #72 on:** October 19, 2009, 12:22:46 am »

http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/hiv_transmission_semen_1667_15189.shtml

HIV Detectable in Semen But Not Blood

elf · « **Reply #73 on:** October 19, 2009, 11:16:19 am »

Even If HIV is detectable in semen, the risk of transmitting the virus from a HIV+ ''bottom'' person to a HIV- ''top'' person in MSM sex is very low if the condom is used.

In ideal world, everyone would disclose his/her HIV status with ease.
But the world is not ideal, here where I live most people have 1980/1 level of knowledge on HIV/AIDS, even the gay community (which is more HIV+ unfriendly than the str8 community):

http://www.aiha.com/en/ResourceLibrary/Publications/CommonHealth/pdf/2005%20-%20Spring/13%20Inaction%20in%20the%20Face%20of%20HIV%20Fosters%20Discrimination%20--%20Croatians%20Decide%20to%20Take%20Issue%20Head%20On.pdf

ruralguy · « **Reply #74 on:** October 23, 2009, 05:42:23 pm »

I just read this on Gallant's John's Hopkins website - read what he says about
.....
Undetectable viral load

Joel E. Gallant, M.D., M.P.H.

Posted on Oct 20, 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read in this forum that there have been no known documented transmission of the HIV virus when undetectable. Is this true? Does pre-ejaculation carry the same risk as full ejaculating during intercourse or oral sex?

On Oct 21, 2009 Joel E. Gallant, M.D., M.P.H. replied:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that is still true. The risk with pre-seminal fluid ("pre-cum") is lower, because boththe amount of HIV and the quantity of fluid are lower. However, there is HIV in preseminal fluid.

http://www.hopkins-hivguide.org/q_a/patient/recent_questions/undetectable_viral_load_.html?contentInstanceId=506420&siteId=7151

pos2007 · « **Reply #75 on:** October 23, 2009, 08:37:36 pm »

Please use a condom. I know condoms are just about as desirable as a garbage bag tied around your head, but think about it. How many of us would not have Hiv now if someone somewhere in the past would Have put a rubber on his willie? Would my wife have received infected blood? Maybe not. Would I have contracted the HIV? probably not. If you have no regard for yourself or your partners,

please have some regard for others so they can give you the same mutual respect.

elf · « **Reply #76 on:** October 23, 2009, 09:25:39 pm »

If I ever choose to have sex again, I will make sure the condom is used and no (condomless) oral sex is performed on me.

ruralguy · « **Reply #77 on:** October 24, 2009, 09:02:01 am »

No question about using condoms...of course one should.

Nonetheless the statement supported by Gallant that there has been "been no known documented transmission of the HIV virus when undetectable" is pretty incredible. He is, after all, a world class expert and we are not.

Gallant, in reponse to another question, does not even recommend PEP in the case of accidental exposure in a discordant couple when the + person is undetectable. See: http://www.hopkins-hivguide.org/q_a/patient/recent_questions/pre-ejacualation_risk_-_undetectable.html?contentInstanceId=502561&siteId=7151

Please do not misunderstand....I agree condom use is always a must.

But I also think people should get past some un-necessary fear of sexual relations after they are on treatment.

Ann · « **Reply #78 on:** October 24, 2009, 10:50:35 am »

Quote from: ruralguy on October 24, 2009, 09:02:01 am

But I also think people should get past some un-necessary fear of sexual relations after they are on treatment.

You're not kidding! Some people here are so sex-negative. It's depressing.

Ann

denb45 · « **Reply #79 on:** October 24, 2009, 11:47:28 am »

Quote from: Ann on October 24, 2009, 10:50:35 am

You're not kidding! Some people here are so sex-negative. It's depressing.

Ann

Yes......Life does continue, even after yrs of treatment, it's never the end of one's sexual desire's wants and needs, at least I hope it isn't

BlueMoon · « **Reply #80 on:** October 24, 2009, 08:24:35 pm »

Quote from: Ann on October 24, 2009, 10:50:35 am

You're not kidding! Some people here are so sex-negative. It's depressing.

Ann

Regarding man to man sex at least, HIV is a minor hindrance at worst to an active sex life. Nor is it necessary to 'settle' for sex only with other poz guys, although that is my personal preference.

pos2007 · « **Reply #81 on:** October 24, 2009, 09:34:23 pm »

I read this whole thread and I can't see where anyone is "sex negative" I see where unsafe sex is promoted and safe sex is promoted and there is fear of having sex since being diagnosed. Personally I pray the day comes when I can have sex again and hope all the rest of you can get all you can take as long as you don't put yourself or others at additional risk. having been in the position of not being able to have sex due to complications from surgery years ago and more recently from a prostatectomy, I am in the position to know what it like to not 'get any'. Very depressing not only for me , but my partner. And yes, even though using a rubber sucks, we did practice safe sex when having sex became possible again in the past to prevent each other further misery from exposure to differing mutations of the HIV and additional HIV med changes even though we orignally started out with the same mutations. No sex- no.

Safe sex - yes.

Lots of safe sex- yes, yes , yes.

Come on people, just think about it, you don't go out and shovel snow barefoot and only wearing a thong. You put on shoes, coat and gloves to protect yourself from frost bite. It makes the same sense to dress your little buddy for protection too. Edit: 10/25/2009 I usually have many edits because I can't seem to get my fingers and brain to work togetr to correct spelling and words in the wrong place. It has been called to my attention that there appears to be no posts promoting unsafe sex. Either that has been edited out in the many edits I see here or I am answering the wrong thread. Either way , having re-read this entire thread I see that there is at least the question or implication that it may be possible to not transmit HIV if your viral load is <48 which only means the amount of virus in yur blood is too low for the test to detect. Sweden anounced earlier this year that undectable meant that it was o.k. to have unprotected sex. A month later POZ had an article that that theory had been disproved and it was not safe to have unprotected sex. A link to that article was just posted in another thread the other day. At any rate this entire thread has digressed off topic. The guy that went around blabbing is still an ass. The ability to have sez in my opinion is partly responsible for aloowing us to keep our mental sanity. The subconscious/conscious fear of taking risk can errode that bit of sanity over time.

amonra23a · « **Reply #82 on:** October 26, 2009, 03:37:33 pm »

was thinking maybe disclosure is the way to go for me. I just meet a dude who is neg. im poz undetectable on HAART for a yr. Any good tips on when the better time is to disclose? Upfront and right away or after you think it might go somewhere. Sex play, where is the line? Any sex play safe? First time having to disclose just a little guidance need.

BlueMoon · « **Reply #83 on:** October 26, 2009, 04:37:17 pm »

Amonra, what is 'safe' depends on who you ask.

What counts here is what he thinks is safe. So if your goal is to establish a trusting relationship, you should disclose your condition before any sex. Then you can work out between yourselves what you're both comfortable with.

I don't have much to offer for how to go about it. Probably an oblique reference in your conversation, such as an upcoming doctor's appointment, or time to take your pill(s), might be easiest. I wonder how you know his HIV status, but he not yours.

Anyway, good luck!

Edit to add: Welcome to the forum.

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