POZ Community Forums

Off Topic Forums => Off Topic Forum => Topic started by: JamieD on August 31, 2007, 06:12:22 pm

Title: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: JamieD on August 31, 2007, 06:12:22 pm
Sort of a thread inspired by the Larry Craig "scandal" (scandal according to the media atleast).

I see men who are on the "DL" getting a lot of slack on TV from Oprah, and other whackjobs like Donnie McLurkin, but what is the general feeling for gay men? It seems to err more on the side of witch hunts. Most people get all hyper when they hear talk of "DL" men, and start accussing them of horrendous things. I understand the fear that they may transmit HIV and/or other STIs back to their "wives" or "girlfriends", but other then this.
Should we as gay men sympathise with people who are in these situations? I am very fortunate in that I came from a family where every single member of my family is accepting of homosexuality (with the slight exception of my much younger sister, whom I don't count). But I am the only gay person I know personally who has this "luxury". I have had friends kicked out of their homes and onto the streets when their parents found out they were gay.
With all the possible terrible things that could come out of revealing one is gay, can't we atleast be a little more understanding to the way people in these situations live?

I think that if Larry Craig is in fact gay that it is sad that he has to look for sex in a public restroom. I really sympathise with him. And now he has been "caught" (supposedly) and everyone wants to beat him over the head. I realise he said some very terrible things about homosexuals, but maybe that was his way of dealing with his own homosexuality. Maybe he honestly believes that the more he hates homosexuals the less he will be one. If that is the case then I really do sympathise with him. He is very old and must have had to carry this around with him for a very long time. And now toward then end of his life people are going to give him shit when he was acting on desires he couldn't control.


Please keep this to a respectful conversation. If you don't agree with my sympathies for disenfranchised people then you can say that without attacking me or my choice in men.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dan J. on August 31, 2007, 06:20:53 pm
Should I have sympathy for the married man that wanted me to poke him the bootay & then he followed me all over town ? Nope, not for him. I have sympathy for his wife because her husband is out screwing with men on his lunch break without protection. & Then he goes home and has sexual realations with her. He doesn't even consider the consequences of his actions. How is SHE going to feel if he becomes HIV+ & then passes the "gift" on to her?

If a man is going to be gay, then damnit be gay & leave an innocent woman out of the equation.

Dan
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: JamieD on August 31, 2007, 06:22:47 pm
He doesn't even consider the consequences of his actions.

Serious Question.... How do you know this?
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: AlanBama on August 31, 2007, 07:01:22 pm
My sympathy doesn't extend so far as to give Sen. Craig a "blanket pass"...he has spouted hatred and bigotry against gays, when he is one himself (excuse me, a "MSM").   The ultimate hypocrite.   

I'm with Dan, I feel sorry for the wives, just as I would feel sorry for a gay man whose partner was stepping out on him without his knowledge.   It's wrong.

Alan
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: woodshere on August 31, 2007, 07:25:46 pm
I used to have the urge and desire to hook up with married men.  But  ever since I was dumped by my X for someone else, I just can't do it with straight married men or partnered gay men.  Maybe it's old fashioned, but I want no part of something of which I have seen from the side as the "married woman".

As far as feeling sorry for a guy on the DL.  Hell no!

Woods
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on August 31, 2007, 07:28:49 pm

Please keep this to a respectful conversation. If you don't agree with my sympathies for disenfranchised people then you can say that without attacking me or my choice in men.

i marvel at the parameters some set for how others should respond when they don't show a fraction of the same respect in their own responses.

just sayin'.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dan J. on August 31, 2007, 08:14:59 pm
Serious Question.... How do you know this?

Because I asked him point blank if he worries about getting HIV.  He said that it doesn't bother him.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Bucko on August 31, 2007, 08:21:12 pm
We used to say "Today's trade is tomorrow's competition."

Pity closet cases? Hell no! Why should liars and cowards be cut any slack?

I came out to a very hostile environment in 1977 and lived to tell about it.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Miss Philicia on August 31, 2007, 08:34:08 pm
I came out to a very hostile environment in 1977 and lived to tell about it.

YA RLY... hello, sista.  I was a few years behind you but only due to my age.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dan J. on August 31, 2007, 08:36:10 pm
I was "out" by the time I was 7!

Dan
(Who always knew closets are for clothes)
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Bucko on August 31, 2007, 08:39:40 pm
YA RLY... hello, sista.  I was a few years behind you but only due to my age.

I'm hardly bitter, but where the fux my toaster over?
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: tester8888 on August 31, 2007, 08:41:14 pm
My pity for him only goes to a certain extent.  If he had not chosen a "Public Job", then he could enjoy some semblance of a life on the down low.  

 I do not condone his infidelity.  I do not condone infidelity in any relationship, st8, gay, or otherwise.  When you make a commitment to a monogamous relationship, that is where it should stand.  So, strike 1 to the Senator.

 Everyone has to choose between what they are and what they want to be.  I would love to be the director of a department where I work (hence, something I want to be).  The job requires one to be on call 24/7.  I also like to go out with my buds and to sometimes get drunk on the weekends (hence, the person that I am).  So, I do the responsible thing, and do not take the job, as I am unable to fullfill the responsibilities of the job.  So, strike 2 to the Senator, for not being an upstanding accountable person.

  If he chose a 'regular' job like so many other people, then he would not have to live in the public view, and could do whatever he wanted, with very few people ever knowing about it.  He has however, chose a public job and so must accept the consequences, not of what he did not choose (being gay), but of what he did choose (being an elected official).  So, strike 3 to the Senator.

  It has always been my opinion that we in the gay community get blamed for 'luring' the str8 guys into traps.  Why is it that you only see stories about 'str8' celebrities, etc, that get 'caught' participating in gay activities, and never the openly gay people that get talked about for participating in gay activities?  It is absolutely ridiculous to me when gay community gets blamed for converting someone to gaydom, when the fact is that they were gay all along, but just living on the downlow.  To make it even worse, it is the guys on the downlow that are usually involved in some sordid tale, as they are attempting sexual relations, not with the people of their choice, but with those that are available to them.  The victims of opportunity we could say:  priests and choir boys, senators in public restrooms, coaches and students, etc.   When they do these things, it just perpetuates the viewpoint of homosexuality as being grossly deviant.  My family uses the words gay, pedophile, rapist, etc all interchangeably.  So, strike 4 to the Senator.

I could ramble on and on and on and on and on and on........
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Miss Philicia on August 31, 2007, 08:41:41 pm
I'm hardly bitter, but where the fux my toaster over?

Girl, you know that Venezuelan boy mopped it.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on August 31, 2007, 08:42:43 pm
I'm hardly bitter, but where the fux my toaster over?

I want my toaster, too.

(Though I'd settle for just getting toasted)
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Bucko on August 31, 2007, 09:19:03 pm
Girl, you know that Venezuelan boy mopped it.

That's it! Blame it all on Hugo Chavez!
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: GSOgymrat on September 01, 2007, 09:23:39 am
I have no sympathy for twisted closet cases, which is the term my friends and I used before DL became the PC term of choice. These men want to have sex with gay men but don't want to be seen in public with us. I would rather deal with garden variety homophobes then these self-loathing liars.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Iggy on September 01, 2007, 10:59:27 am
I have two feelings for the two versions of DL

I think the DL  as it originated for those whose have difficulty accepting their homosexuality have my sympathy to a degree.  The vast majority of gay men have been in the closet at some point in their life and I applaud anyone and everyone who does live openly, but also remember what life was like before I came out in college and it seemed at the time like everything would fall apart if I was honest about who I was.  For those who engage in DL I can appreciate where they are.

For the usage of DL as a sort of fetish or as a definition however  I think they are self hating (both the ones who use the label and the ones who seek those who wear the label)  I am also included most of the younger generation's use of DL in this category as most today who I see are DL in name only .  I am not sure if it is a NYC phenomenon but in the last few years being DL has sort of become a cool thing to lust after and thus like any opportunist, so many guys now claim to be DL simply to score more interests in their online ads or their reputations.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dachshund on September 01, 2007, 11:03:37 am
Wow! I can see why gay men are so afraid of getting old. Is this what I have to look forward to when I get to be as old as 40? Being a bitter queen?
Next time you all feel like being bitchy old queens slide your chairs back away from the computer, close your eyes, and say "I am a princess, not a queen" say that 3 times and I guarantee you the desire to be a queen will go away.~JamieD


Something tells me the kid wasn't really sincere when he started this thread. ;) The level of empathy the kid really feels toward you old bitter queens is there for all to read. Keep it in mind when he returns to troll anew.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: bear60 on September 01, 2007, 11:06:33 am
I Am Not A Gay American

James Duggan©2007

 
Okay, by now most of us have heard of the news that Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) has pleaded guilty to charges stemming from his inappropriate behavior in a public men's bathroom just after noon on June 11 at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.
 

Craig allegedly tapped his foot, brushed his shoe against an undercover officer's shoe and repeatedly waved his hand under the stall divider.

 

A right wing conservative anti-queer elected official, Craig continues to deny that he was seeking sex and has declared that he is "not gay... I never have been gay".

 

Hopefully, this is totally true. We would hate it if this man became a representation of the norm for the queer community. 

 

So what are some of his other options? 

1.   "I am a self-loathing homosexual who has remained in the closet my entire life and I let these evil homoerotic desires make me momentarily insane for sex."

2.   "I am a bisexual man with feelings for men that can not be suppressed, so instead of dealing with it as an adult I lurk around men's rooms seeking other like minded men."

3.   "I am a straight man who has a fetish for man-on-man sex in risky locations."

4.   "I'm just really confused about all this. I really don't know why I have these feelings. I know that they're wrong but I just can't seem to get rid of them."

While any and all of these possibilities may explain, even, in part, Senator Craig's behavior, his issues are really his own. However, the queer community in America does have to be concerned, unfortunately, with all the media attention that this type of behavior has given to the men who participate in this type of men's room activity and this activity being labeled as "gay sex."

 

Let's be very clear. This bathroom activity is not the norm for queer men.  An informal survey, I conducted this week indicated that the majority of queer men questioned have never known that there were universal symbols for man-on-man sex in men's rooms.

 

We also need to clear up another misnomer. There is a big difference between "gay sex" and "man-on-man sex."  Gay, queer or homosexual sex is rooted in both a physical and emotional attraction between the two parties.  Man-on-man sex is just that; it is two men having a physical release--without an emotional attraction, a desire to partner with another man or any other reason for human connection. It's simply "just do it and move on." Psychologists can confirm that this activity can be found in both subgroups of both homosexual men and heterosexual men.

 

That's right --- the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while. 

 

Lastly, what of this behavior of men having sex in public bathrooms? 

 

QUEERtimes holds the position that it is absolutely wrong in all circumstances!

 

A queer friend of mine likened it to an act of terrorism.  Imagine an unsuspected kid being on the wrong side of the stall divider.  Imagine his fear, his terror.  While some will search their minds for reasons as to why this type of activity exists and try to justify it, we in the queer community must condemn and reject it. 

 

Public bathrooms and other public facilities and locations are completely inappropriate places for sexual expression.
 
As the saying goes --- get a room!
 
 



Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dachshund on September 01, 2007, 11:18:48 am



"you can do anything you like in public providing you don't frighten the horses."


                                       ~Lady Astor
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 01, 2007, 11:19:33 am
Wow! I can see why gay men are so afraid of getting old. Is this what I have to look forward to when I get to be as old as 40? Being a bitter queen?
Next time you all feel like being bitchy old queens slide your chairs back away from the computer, close your eyes, and say "I am a princess, not a queen" say that 3 times and I guarantee you the desire to be a queen will go away.~JamieD


Something tells me the kid wasn't really sincere when he started this thread. ;) The level of empathy the kid really feels toward you old bitter queens is there for all to read. Keep it in mind when he returns to troll anew.



Spot on, Auntie D- as always.  That's why I didn't bother to post in this thread beyond my original note of his posting parameters (which I thought was really rich).   I was waiting for this thread to appear yesterday when he got TO'd.  It's the same type of thing as last time.  
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Iggy on September 01, 2007, 11:21:47 am

We also need to clear up another misnomer. There is a big difference between "gay sex" and "man-on-man sex."  Gay, queer or homosexual sex is rooted in both a physical and emotional attraction between the two parties.  Man-on-man sex is just that; it is two men having a physical release--without an emotional attraction, a desire to partner with another man or any other reason for human connection. It's simply "just do it and move on." Psychologists can confirm that this activity can be found in both subgroups of both homosexual men and heterosexual men.

That's right --- the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while. 

 :o
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Miss Philicia on September 01, 2007, 11:25:46 am


"you can do anything you like in public providing you don't frighten the horses."


                                       ~Lady Astor

reading those Larry Craig Freeper quotes again, sweetie?
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dachshund on September 01, 2007, 11:26:08 am
That's right --- the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while.  



Secret? Since when? The only group that doesn't know about this dirty little secret are the wives...and I ain't so sure about them.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: bear60 on September 01, 2007, 11:29:56 am
"... the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while.  "
quote James Duggan


Thanks for picking that out Iggy.
I too thought it kind of significant in relation to this discussion. Seems men having sex with men Or (DL) can be straight. So this Congressman may be straight but just likes a little slurping once in a while.???? Ok, well thats how it looks on paper.
Well...Doxie...the secret is that they may in fact BE straight....not closet gays. Thats how I read it.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Miss Philicia on September 01, 2007, 11:33:20 am
It's the same type of thing as last time.  

So can we contemplate the motivation behind the incessant trolling by this poster?  While he's seemed combative in some ways from the beginning, it seems lately like he WANTS to be banned.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dachshund on September 01, 2007, 11:39:11 am
"... the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while.  "
quote James Duggan


Thanks for picking that out Iggy.
I too thought it kind of significant in relation to this discussion. Seems men having sex with men Or (DL) can be straight. So this Congressman may be straight but just likes a little slurping once in a while.???? Ok, well thats how it looks on paper.
Well...Doxie...the secret is that they may in fact BE straight....not closet gays. Thats how I read it.


Believe me, I ain't one of those insufferable mo's who thinks every man is gay. I believe they may well be straight and I have had many experiences to prove it, in my mind at least. Many!
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 01, 2007, 11:42:59 am
So can we contemplate the motivation behind the incessant trolling by this poster?  While he's seemed combative in some ways from the beginning, it seems lately like he WANTS to be banned.

Oooh!  That's actually a much more intriguing theme for a thread (to me).  However, I don't know if we really can- lest it be potentially viewed as flaming or trolling ourselves.  ???  

It is a legitimate question, though.  I mean, someone whose first thread after a TO is titled "I flame"...and who posts a snappy comment directly under a warning from Peter not to post any snappy comments.  Well....?
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dachshund on September 01, 2007, 11:48:10 am
It was all just a game of Russian Moderator Roulette.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 01, 2007, 11:51:39 am
It was all just a game of Russian Moderator Roulette.

Agreed, but that's fascinating to me.  I guess getting a thrill off of seeing how far they can push people then on to the next forum board? 
Title: Slack or Flack? Being "one of those people"
Post by: megasept on September 01, 2007, 12:32:19 pm
Sort of a thread inspired by the Larry Craig "scandal" (scandal according to the media atleast).

I see men who are on the "DL" getting a lot of slack on TV from Oprah..I think that if Larry Craig is in fact gay that it is sad that he has to look for sex in a public restroom. I really sympathise with him... I really do sympathise with him. He is very old and must have had to carry this around with him for a very long time. And now toward then end of his life people are going to give him shit when he was acting on desires he couldn't control.


Please keep this to a respectful conversation. If you don't agree with my sympathies for disenfranchised people then you can say that without attacking me or my choice in men.

Jamie D:

I respectfully suggest you used "slack" for "flack", though I like it the way you wrote it.

Two people who are/were never  "disenfranchised": Diana and Sen. Craig! I liked the first because of all her opportunism, desire to help others, and many foibles, and the latter is such a tiresome hypocrite.

Sen. Craig is not that much older than me and similar in age to lots of regular users on this Site. When we "came out" years, even decades ago (3 for me) it was the tail end of police raids on bars, distruction of careers for the private "crime" of homosexuality, and other indignities (including lobotomizing or shock therapy for gay men). Your heart really pines for the wrong folks (fine to love all). Learn a little about the time not so long ago. Lots of older men and lesbians can tell you their experiences first hand. It was fun, but often not so pretty! If you want to love everyone, then pity the oppressor, because that's Sen. Craig's legacy. As a human being---well ask his, "beard", the poor Mrs. Craig trotted around like a prop the last two weeks.

"Tea room" sex, like other DL moves, is really more unnecessary than disgusting. Craig was victimized by a Vice cop doing his job. A silly job (The Sgt sounds plenty intelligent as an interrogator) in the 21st Century, that powerful people like Sen Craig make sure survives all the cultural changes and progress of the last 4 decades.  I think it's funny and a deserved fall from "decency" to "reality". It goes way beyond "partisanship", right to the core of the nonsense our confused culture finds itself embroiled in (better to worry about the National Guardsmen on their second or third tour of duty in Iraq, etc.). Oh, yeah, remember all those Federal employees, translators of Arabic, who the Pentagon fired for what they do on their off time? That's our culture too. Sen Craig didn't do squat for them, nor would he for me or you. Chicken came home to roost!

 8)  -megasept

Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Ann on September 01, 2007, 01:57:15 pm
Wow! I can see why gay men are so afraid of getting old. Is this what I have to look forward to when I get to be as old as 40? Being a bitter queen?
Next time you all feel like being bitchy old queens slide your chairs back away from the computer, close your eyes, and say "I am a princess, not a queen" say that 3 times and I guarantee you the desire to be a queen will go away.~JamieD


Something tells me the kid wasn't really sincere when he started this thread. ;) The level of empathy the kid really feels toward you old bitter queens is there for all to read. Keep it in mind when he returns to troll anew.


Spot on, Auntie D- as always.  That's why I didn't bother to post in this thread beyond my original note of his posting parameters (which I thought was really rich).   I was waiting for this thread to appear yesterday when he got TO'd.  It's the same type of thing as last time.  
So can we contemplate the motivation behind the incessant trolling by this poster?  While he's seemed combative in some ways from the beginning, it seems lately like he WANTS to be banned.
Oooh!  That's actually a much more intriguing theme for a thread (to me).  However, I don't know if we really can- lest it be potentially viewed as flaming or trolling ourselves.  ???  

It is a legitimate question, though.  I mean, someone whose first thread after a TO is titled "I flame"...and who posts a snappy comment directly under a warning from Peter not to post any snappy comments.  Well....?
It was all just a game of Russian Moderator Roulette.
Agreed, but that's fascinating to me.  I guess getting a thrill off of seeing how far they can push people then on to the next forum board? 

ENOUGH!

JamieD is on a time out, as you all well know, and I see no good reason to let you guys drag the situation through the mud again and again. The kid has legitimate problems, so leave him alone. We won't let his problems disrupt the forum and neither will we allow him to be bashed in his absence.

If you guys want to continue the discussion about the DL, by all means do. Just knock off the talk about trolls in relation to Jamie. Jamie has been given his punishment, and that's that. No need to keep bringing it up. Got it? Good.

And yes, consider yourselves warned.

Ann
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: emeraldize on September 01, 2007, 02:32:06 pm
I see men who are on the "DL" getting a lot of slack on TV from Oprah, and other whackjobs like Donnie McLurkin,

JamieD

Not sure I want to comment about sympathizing with men who are DL just yet, for a variety of reasons.

However, I'd like to help you with your first sentence. The men are not getting "slack" they are getting flak or flack (meaning: opposition or criticism). Using the word "slack" technically changes the meaning of your sentence to its exact opposite. Most of us reading understand what the meaning you intend. You might want to know as this is one of those words people think they're using correctly having heard others use it because it sounds close the accurate word. Make sense?

Em
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: DanielMark on September 01, 2007, 05:03:47 pm
Should DL men be sympathised with?

My answer to that is I only have sympathy for anyone who is being cheated on by anyone else. Period. I believe infidelity is an act of selfishness to the extreme, and if children are affected as well as a spouse I have to say I find it even more heinous.

Daniel
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 01, 2007, 05:04:39 pm
I agree.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Iggy on September 01, 2007, 09:00:32 pm
"... the dirty little secret is out --- lots of heterosexual men enjoy man-on-man sex every once in a while.  "
quote James Duggan


Thanks for picking that out Iggy.
I too thought it kind of significant in relation to this discussion. Seems men having sex with men Or (DL) can be straight. So this Congressman may be straight but just likes a little slurping once in a while.???? Ok, well thats how it looks on paper.
Well...Doxie...the secret is that they may in fact BE straight....not closet gays. Thats how I read it.

Oh...I believe in g0ys just think they kid themselves that's all.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: buca45 on September 02, 2007, 02:12:48 pm
I do feel bad for them for believing that they can not be who they were born to be. It must be hell for them to wake up everyday and not be able to accept themselves for who they are.
For whatever reason they believe this, its pretty sad.
This is coming from someone who has known and been 'out' since the age of three. Although I have come across quite a few people opposed to who I am since then, they havent broken me down yet, nor will they ever.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 02, 2007, 02:24:06 pm
you were "out" since the age of three, buca?

i was unaware that children that young even had the capacity for such concepts.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Miss Philicia on September 02, 2007, 02:32:38 pm
you were "out" since the age of three, buca?

i was unaware that children that young even had the capacity for such concepts.

Odd claim, isn't it?  Ranks up there with bim's claim that he read 500 articles frankly.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 02, 2007, 02:36:57 pm
He's here.   He's queer.  And he's toilet trained.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Iggy on September 02, 2007, 02:49:32 pm
Three sounds a bit young to be that self aware.

I thought I was pretty self aware when in the 3rd grade me and a classmate were looking at an illustrated edition of Edgar Allen Poe tales - It was the Pit and the Pendulum story, and the drawing was of this man who was bare chested strapped to a table ...all  sweaty and with a look of terror and almost excitement in his eyes as the pendulum swung towards him.

I remember looking at that picture a long time and then me and chris looked at each other and giggled and I had butterflies in my stomach.   It was then I knew I liked something about other boys but in all honesty I wouldn't claim that I knew I was gay then....into bondage and sweaty bare chested men...well yeah.. but gay?...naw -I don't even think I could have comprehended what that meant.

Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dachshund on September 02, 2007, 02:51:37 pm
It happens, my uncle told me I was out at three.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Iggy on September 02, 2007, 02:55:41 pm
My mom knew when I was five.

She had to go to one of her 12 step meetings and being that we couldn't afford a babysitter and my older bro & sis were MIA at the time - I always had to go with her.

So she kept telling me to turn of the TV as we needed to go...I decided at the tender age of five to make my stand.  According to my mother I stood up , swirled around, put both hands on my hips  and exclaimed:

"Why do I have to go to those damned meetings?  I'm only five years old and haven't had a drink in my whole life."

I sure do wish I was wearing shoulder pads and come-fuck-me pumps  at the time.

Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Miss Philicia on September 02, 2007, 03:02:30 pm
"Out" to me means being cognizant of the concept, not just appearing to be a flaming swisher.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: MoltenStorm on September 02, 2007, 03:21:06 pm
Ironic, but interesting.

Sympathize with men on the "down low?" No.

(1) If they're single, they will publically blast gays or MSMs, yet when the door shuts at some hotel, they're a bunch of hypocrits.

(2) If they're not single, they're breaking a vow or a promise they made to someone. To treat that vow or promise with such disrespect is reprehensible.

(3) They act as if they have no choice, and they want people to believe they have no choice in the matter. In reality, they always have a choice.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: libvet on September 02, 2007, 03:30:58 pm
I have a hard time sympathizing with Craig and his ilk for a few reasons.  The major two biggest of those reasons are:

1) I grew up in a rural Southern Baptist household where being gay was considered the next best thing practicing satanic animal sacrifice.   I am fully cognizant of what it feels like to grow up in an environment that makes you feel like something is dreadfully wrong with you and feeling that you have to conform to a standard you had no part in making.  If Craig decided to retreat into closet (except for occasional lapses) due to his upbringing, he is not so isolated from the rest of the world that he could possibly avoided any opportunity to realize that there are perfectly happy and well-adjusted individuals out there who gay and don't feel any need pretend to be otherwise.  He made a choice to continue to present a false face to the world at large rather than trying to be happy with who he is.  I'm sure we've all had instances where we stifled our own opinions on the altar of conformity, but an entire life?  I just can't buy it.

2) He used his position to engage in legislative gay-bashing. 

I can accept one of these things, but I cannot accept the other.  Being a party to exacerbating bigotry against homosexuality while simultaneously having sex with men is the most repugnant and pathetic things I can imagine.  I don't for a second believe that his votes were based on anything other than making sure his political career was intact.

He sold his soul.  And he sold it cheaply and with full cognizance of what he was doing. 

Someone who does that might warrant my contempt, but I will not afford him my sympathy.  If this were a country where we still imprisoned or executed or lobotomized homosexuals for being homosexual, I might have a different opinion.

 
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 02, 2007, 03:40:43 pm
i find it interesting when gay men talk about being into sex with men on the DL and also complain if the government resists allowing gay marriage.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Miss Philicia on September 02, 2007, 03:44:39 pm
i find it interesting when gay men talk about being into sex with men on the DL and also complain if the government resists allowing gay marriage.
i find it interesting that *some* gay men fetishize these Down Low characters.

And I hate the phrase "Down Low" in the first place.  Why rename The Closet?  It doesn't make it any prettier a place frankly.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: libvet on September 02, 2007, 03:47:02 pm
And I hate the phrase "Down Low" in the first place.  Why rename The Closet?  It doesn't make it any prettier a place frankly.

Bravo!  Well said.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 02, 2007, 03:50:11 pm
i don't really like the term "homophobia" myself.  most often, it isn't so much "fear" as outright "hatred".
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: buca45 on September 02, 2007, 04:41:05 pm
OK enough with the BS philly and thunter....what the hell is exactly up with the two of you?
Every comment i make you are there to dispute it and follow up with some smart ass remark?
what exactly is your problem with me? Im relatively new here, so if there is something im doing wrong or have offended you by my opinions, please be upfront and tell me what im doing wrong.
as far as my comment about being out at three....for me its the way it was. I remember being a kid who was very attracted to a teenager who worked for the rancher who lived next to my grandmothers land on the reservation. I knew somehow, even at that age that I was different and this was not a normal reaction. I therefore say i was out at the age of three.
I'm not sure how you were when you came out philly,but please speak for yourself when you refer to gay men as "flaming swisher" as that in no way, at no time describes me.
again, if you are having problems with me, please be man enough to tell me what im doing wrong that you have to attempt to downgrade me at every posting. this whole back and forth with you is getting so old and im sure the rest of the posters dont care to read it either.
fess up, what the hell is your problem???
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: 404error on September 02, 2007, 08:29:30 pm
Well, I don't think they should be sympathized with at all.  If anything, the hammer should come down on certain communities and their unwillingness to accept homosexuality as a fact of life.  White people have been told time and time again that they are; racist, sexist, xenophobes who are often intolerant of other cultures and it has been rammed down their throats that they need to be accomodating of all people.  It's high time this same approach was taken towards those are aren't white as from what I've learned about those living on the "DL" they are mostly Black, Hispanic, Indian and Middle Eastern Americans.  It's all about education really.  Well, education and limiting ones religious intake I suppose...
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Matty the Damned on September 02, 2007, 08:37:02 pm
The DL is a racist myth.

Suggesting that closeted homosexual conduct amongst men is particular to that group of colour is a nonsense. Hands up all the fags here who were married and had kids at one time.

There's more than one.

MtD
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dachshund on September 03, 2007, 07:17:38 am
From the horse's mouth.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/02/AR2007090200889.html
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: emeraldize on September 03, 2007, 08:19:23 am
Thanks for posting the link. What a worthwhile read.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: buca45 on September 03, 2007, 12:08:05 pm
Well, I don't think they should be sympathized with at all.  If anything, the hammer should come down on certain communities and their unwillingness to accept homosexuality as a fact of life.  White people have been told time and time again that they are; racist, sexist, xenophobes who are often intolerant of other cultures and it has been rammed down their throats that they need to be accomodating of all people.  It's high time this same approach was taken towards those are aren't white as from what I've learned about those living on the "DL" they are mostly Black, Hispanic, Indian and Middle Eastern Americans.  It's all about education really.  Well, education and limiting ones religious intake I suppose...

I dont think there is a hammer big enough to come down on any group to "force" them to accept homosexuality in their communities.
I think your blanket  judgement of people of color does more harm than good in solving the problem of intolerance.
From my experience with men on the 'DL', I would have to estimate the majority of them hovers around 90% white. The fact that the political messes of recent times have all involved white, religious leaning men proves your opinion is questionable.
I found your post somewhat racist and scary to lump ANY groups together as you have. If there is one group that I have no sympathy for in the DL scene, it is the "white" group as they are the majority and generally make up the 'rules' the rest of us must follow.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 03, 2007, 03:59:52 pm
Oh, sweet Jesus.  Now we're all coordinating our closets by color.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 03, 2007, 04:12:31 pm
And speaking of Jesus...Buca, I believe it's time we had a little "Come to Jesus" right now.

Exactly what the fuck did I say that was so damn awful above?  I simply said that I was unaware that children that young (3) had the capacity for such concepts.  That's a fact:  I didn't have any knowledge of such a thing, and I still question it.  That hardly constitutes an attack.  And for my other comment after that one:  It's called a joke.  "Here, Queer and Toilet Trained"...referencing being "out" at such a young age.

It's remarkable that you acheived such a mature level of self-awareness of your sexuality at the tender age of three.

It's unfortunate that your maturity in other aspects appears to have stalled at that age.


OK enough with the BS philly and thunter....what the hell is exactly up with the two of you?
Every comment i make you are there to dispute it and follow up with some smart ass remark?
what exactly is your problem with me? Im relatively new here, so if there is something im doing wrong or have offended you by my opinions, please be upfront and tell me what im doing wrong.
as far as my comment about being out at three....for me its the way it was. I remember being a kid who was very attracted to a teenager who worked for the rancher who lived next to my grandmothers land on the reservation. I knew somehow, even at that age that I was different and this was not a normal reaction. I therefore say i was out at the age of three.
I'm not sure how you were when you came out philly,but please speak for yourself when you refer to gay men as "flaming swisher" as that in no way, at no time describes me.
again, if you are having problems with me, please be man enough to tell me what im doing wrong that you have to attempt to downgrade me at every posting. this whole back and forth with you is getting so old and im sure the rest of the posters dont care to read it either.
fess up, what the hell is your problem???
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: a2z on September 03, 2007, 04:24:28 pm
What does one mean by "Down Low" as opposed to closeted?

I'm a closeted male who chooses not to be in a relationship with anyone.  If I choose to do so, it will be a monogamous relationship.

Someone who is on the "down low" I always thought meant a married (or straight with girlfriend) man, who has sex with other men, and is in denial of even being gay/bi.  "Rightful" deception within a relationship is a part of the down low definition, as these people appear to think they have a right to sexual satisfaction, even if its outside their marriage/supposedly monogamous relationship.

I'm not on expert on these things, thank God... this is just my perception.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Dachshund on September 03, 2007, 04:31:31 pm
What does one mean by "Down Low" as opposed to closeted?

I'm a closeted male who chooses not to be in a relationship with anyone.  If I choose to do so, it will be a monogamous relationship.

Someone who is on the "down low" I always thought meant a married (or straight with girlfriend) man, who has sex with other men, and is in denial of even being gay/bi.  "Rightful" deception within a relationship is a part of the down low definition, as these people appear to think they have a right to sexual satisfaction, even if its outside their marriage/supposedly monogamous relationship.

I'm not on expert on these things, thank God... this is just my perception.

Not to change the subject, but for a frame of reference. Are you poz a2z?
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Joe K on September 03, 2007, 08:17:39 pm
I believe you are confusing two very different terms when you use Down Low interchangeably with The Closet.  For me, Down Low represents a person, who is already in a committed relationship, that voluntarily choses to have sex outside of that relationship.  Actually Down Low is just a fancy name for cheaters. With that definition in mind, they deserve no sympathy what so ever and I would go so far as to say that if they infect their committed partner that they be charged with attempted murder.

On the other hand, the closet is the place where many of us hid, for whatever reasons, until we felt it safe to either come out, or we were outted, either way, it represents more of a state of mind to me, as opposed to the DL which involves conscious decisions to feed a carnal desire, regardless of their commitment to another.

The closet is for people who are just not ready to be out, or are in serious denial about their sexuality and there are all forms of closets, not just the gay kind (though certainly not as fabulous). The DL is another tired reasoning by people who lack the backbone and intestinal fortitude to be honest with who they are and to honor any commitment they have made.  DLs are just cheaters hiding behind a new term, same scum, different words.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Matty the Damned on September 03, 2007, 08:20:36 pm
With that definition in mind, they deserve no sympathy what so ever and I would go so far as to say that if they infect their committed partner that they be charged with attempted murder.

Only their committed partner, Joe?

 ::)

MtD
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Joe K on September 03, 2007, 08:24:58 pm
I would never exclude anyone who was intentionally infected by another, but my point here is that most people in a committed monogamous relationship would know WHO gave them HIV if one partner was cheating.  Of course all intentional infections should be prosecuted, but proving a casual infection, I believe, is much more difficult outside of a monogamous relationship. I was responding to the issue of the closet and DL and not the intentional infecting of others.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Matty the Damned on September 03, 2007, 08:29:14 pm
I would never exclude anyone who was intentionally infected by another, but my point here is that most people in a committed monogamous relationship would know WHO gave them HIV if one partner was cheating.

Well then you should have said that Joe. There really is no excuse for such sloppiness when posting.

I was responding to the issue of the closet and DL and not the intentional infecting of others.

I know Joe, I read that part. But you also jumped on the "prosecute the dirty rotten cheaters" wagon and thus were open to adverse comment.

Regards,

MtD
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 03, 2007, 08:55:55 pm
From what I had heard, I thought DL was a term that encompassed both the "cheaters" and the "hiders"...both just keeping their actions from view for whatever reason.  I did hear that it was predominently a "cheater" type thing, though. 

While I understand the term "Down Low" may have orginated within the black community, I don't see it as being any sort of racial phenomenon.  That's a behavior that happens across the board.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: DCGUY2007 on September 04, 2007, 01:26:45 am
My response is we are all human and have faults. There are many people that have said Gay people who are poz got what they deserved because they should have been having protected sex. But if you survey those same people many of them have had unsafe sex before but just haven't gotten Hiv.

Many people who preach not having affairs have had affairs before. etc etc. As for term "Down  low" every race has people that are having affairs on their spouses and girlfriends. No matter what it is called no one race has the corner on this. Unfortunately the news doesn't always accurately report everything. But then again they are trying to sale newspapers. What better way to sale newspapers and advetisement slots on news channels then to pit the us against them stuff.

I definitely feel sorry for wifes whose husbands are having affairs. Then again SOME of these wives know what is happening (although they pretend they don't). I have never been married or had a wife so I can't relate to the "DL". I also havent used illegal drugs but that doesn't mean I have no faults. All of us includng myself have done things that we regret. Fortunately all of us aren't in the public eye to have to defend our mistakes
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Cliff on September 04, 2007, 07:37:50 am
What drives men and women into the closet, (whether they take it a step further and date/marry someone of the opposite sex or not, while still engaging in sex with the same sex), is homophobia, ignorance, stigma and a culture where ones masculinity is pretty damn important.

So I guess I would disagree with Joe's statement that being on the down low is nothing but cheating.  I believe it's a little more than that.  Whether or not they should get our sympathy is another story.  But maybe we can (particularly those of us who are gay) give our understanding for what drives people to such extreme measures of hiding their sexuality.  No it doesn't excuse cheating or putting people (well mostly women) at risk.  But it may give us a clue as to how we begin to help those living a lie move towards the truth.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: DanielMark on September 04, 2007, 08:43:45 am
I do feel bad for them for believing that they can not be who they were born to be. It must be hell for them to wake up everyday and not be able to accept themselves for who they are.
For whatever reason they believe this, its pretty sad.
This is coming from someone who has known and been 'out' since the age of three. Although I have come across quite a few people opposed to who I am since then, they havent broken me down yet, nor will they ever.

I also had awareness of my orientation from an early age Buca, probably at age four or five. Of course it baffled me then and I had no name for it, but it was clear to me that I was interested in other boys more than girls. When puberty hit, then my feelings fully transferred to my sexuality (of course). I’ve been shunned and worse because of that, but at least I am honest about it and not living like a selfish coward in some stupid needless closet hurting others in the process.

Homosexuality is natural for me because I am. It’s only unnatural to those who are not.

Daniel
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: thunter34 on September 04, 2007, 08:49:17 am
Well, I also had an awareness of same-sex attraction at an early age (probably four or five).  Hell, I joke that i rubber-necked at men from the stroller.  And that probably isn't too far from the truth. 

Having an awareness of attraction (to me) is not nearly the same as being "out", as at that age I had no concepts of being either out or in- or anything resembling an understanding of adult sexuality and relationships- not to mention how society regarded these things.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: a2z on September 04, 2007, 09:04:39 am
My response is we are all human and have faults. There are many people that have said Gay people who are poz got what they deserved because they should have been having protected sex.

So people deserve HIV?
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: buca45 on September 04, 2007, 09:29:57 am
Thanks Daniel for clarifying my statement about my being 'aware' of the attraction to other boys (and men) at an early age.
Of course, I too didn't have any idea of what it was or what it was called, but I somehow felt "special" and have always felt positive things about who I am regardless of how others view me.
I just can't imagine the fear and self doubt (which sometimes translates into  hatred) that men and women who don't accept themselves must feel.

a2z, please reread DCGUY's posting as that is not what he is implying at all. He is saying that THOSE people who dint accept homosexuality believe that this is what we deserve.
Of course,  NO ONE deserves to be infected!!
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: buca45 on September 04, 2007, 09:39:00 am
I believe that just because one is on the 'DL' doesn't mean they are necessarily cheating. Men on the DL feel they need to do so whether or not they are in a relationship.
To me, being on the DL means that because of societal rules and pressure to be 'normal', men who have sex with other men feel they have to hide who they are and who they are attracted to.
I believe at some point in the future (or at least strongly hope) every man and woman will have the freedom to live their lives as they were meant to.
Cases like those that involved Sen Craig does nothing more than add fuel to the fire of intolerance and non acceptance from others.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: DCGUY2007 on September 04, 2007, 10:05:57 am
A2z

So people deserve HIV?

Of course I don't think people deserved Hiv. My point is that there are always others that will judge people and find ways to discrminate or look down on others.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: Miss Philicia on September 04, 2007, 12:43:39 pm
This "DL" term is so incredibly lame and tired.  Did anyone here ever adequately explain why the term is even needed when the word "closet" already exists?
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: RapidRod on September 04, 2007, 01:05:50 pm
GLAAD (http://www.glaad.org/media/guide/problematic.php)

Use the term "Down Low" only to describe men who self-identify that way. A controversial term describing the phenomenon of MSMs (men who have sex with men) who publicly identify as heterosexuals and maintain sexual relationships with women, "The Down Low" has become synonymous with sensationalized claims that MSMs are spreading HIV into "the general population." Avoid inaccurate suggestions that "The Down Low" is a phenomenon exclusive to communities of color. In general, the more accurate descriptor is MSM, which should be reserved for clinical or statistical contexts.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: a2z on September 04, 2007, 10:44:47 pm
Of course I don't think people deserved Hiv. My point is that there are always others that will judge people and find ways to discrminate or look down on others.

My apologies, I totally misread that.
Title: Re: Should DL men be sympathised with?
Post by: tester8888 on September 06, 2007, 05:21:20 pm
Like Tim said earlier, I thought that "Being on the Down Low" was a phrase used in the black community.  The only times that I have ever heard that term, is when I am sitting with some black girls at work and they are gossiping.  Because they used it to describe anyone whom they suspect is gay, I thought it was an ethnic term.  They even asked me, "So have you always been out, or did you used to be on the down low?".  So in that question there was a mixture of the closet and DL.  This has been very educational for this 'country comes to town' gay boi.
As for the knowing you were gay at a young age, I remember a defining moment.  We were to go to some event in which they were going to have "The General Lee" and one of the Duke boys.  It was about 1st grade I think.  When we arrived, it was not one of the Duke boys, but Daisy Duke instead.  I was so disappointed.  I can also remember in about 3 or 4 grade, when sometimes we little boys will pee together, that I thought a guy in my class had the prettiest pecker.  I loved to see it.  And I knew that was not normal.